@@EndravenMusicChannel Same here. My old ones finally blew out and I decided to treat myself. Military games just got a lot more fun with that bass kicker.
I love how in the original audio in The Simpsons they looked impressed, but in the wwap treatment they looked shocked because of the crap drumming ;D Sound can change interpretation
I’m a drummer and an animation enthusiast who is trying to learn animation. How have I not discovered these videos before!?!? This is amazing. I’m actually working on a drumming animation test, and seeing all these examples is helpful!
The thing is, when the camera cuts away from the drummer (like in the Scooby-Do) one, they're actually being animated perfectly. Just because the cameraman looked away it shouldn't be a knock on the animator or drummer.
In Scooby Doo and I do not know much about music but I do know this, the music is 100% accurate because they literally set up actual musicians with a filming suit and recorded them with actual video cameras then used an old animation style that paints over real video with animation and they used real recordings of the actual music being played. The people that did all of the motions were men but the people who did the voice acting were women. This music was done by actual pro musicians. In fact the drummer was the coach of the drummer from Kizz. This guy is a fraud. The animation was filmed and painted over to make it animated but the underlying everything is 100% accurate because its a blatant recording of real music actually being played. This guy is a straight up fraud.
@@jordancambridge4106 The animation technique you're referring to is called rotoscoping. I don't think they rotoscope every musical bit in scooby-doo, though.
Snot McDuckie was quite the curve ball! Genuinely thought it was a show that intentionally looked bad yet ironically put more attention to detail in animating the drum right.
I thought it would be by an editor or smth with crappy animation skills but I couldn't believe he did that! also did y'all see the big red writing of "pussy" in there lol
Sonic Underground has a lot of drumming, and while I absolutely love most of the music in that show, I'm pretty sure it's not even remotely correct animation. But one that has a lot of drum scenes is Episode 5s song "Have you got the 4.1.1"
Whenever I watch these that show always comes up in my head because it has a song every episode, with an electric guitar, synthesizer, and a drum set(one for each Hedgehog of course) Perfect setup for one of these accuracy tests, Windows Movie Maker effects placed over the scenes aside
12:37 sorry it was probably motion capture The difference between rotoscoping and motion capture is rotoscoping takes a reference video and you traces over every frame but motion capture records movement in 3 dimensions by taking a bunch of reference points (the ping pong balls on the skin-tight suits). Similar in concept but very different
Due to the Nyquist limit, it is not possible to include information in animation above 1/2 the frame rate. Intuitively, this is because it takes one frame to show the stick on the down-stroke, then a frame to show it on the up-stroke, then another frame to show the next down-stroke. At BEST (i.e., most expensive), TV animation can be done at 30 frames/second, which means that you can't animate any percussion sequence faster than 15 hits/second. Period. But that's the theoretical limit. In practice, most TV animation is done at either 10, 12, or 15 unique frames per second, with corresponding hit rates of 5 to 7.5 hits per second. This is done due to the cost of animation, which is roughly proportional to the frame rate. This is completely independent of how the motion is being captured. In fact, an animator, hearing a drum sequence in excess of 20 hits/second, will not even consider rotoscoping OR full motion capture, since neither approach will be able to keep up with the actual drumming, within their budget. The true challenge of animation is working within that budget, while still making the impression of motion that is faster than the theoretical limit.
@@BrightBlueJim Just because I love being a pedantic, contrarian douchebag, I'mma point out that Devil's Third is a video game and that the WiiU version runs at 60 FPS. Everything you said, from my understanding, is still correct, but, as a random jerkbag on the internet, I am duty-bound to point out even the tiniest and most insignificant discrepancy.
@@BrightBlueJim interesting note on the mathematics and essential science of why drumming animations are hard. This idea of the limits of frame rate to display high rates of change, wasn't something I had fully considered before. This kind of explains why old animation would sometimes experiment with smearing and duplicating And octopus pianists! lmao I guess with 8 arms they could match the piano score to the animation better lmao
@@BrightBlueJim with the octopus drummer, I think you could at least double or triple the rate of beats you can feasibly achieve, by dedicating more arms to it, but there's definitely a limit still haha Edit, but frame rate would still be an issue for frame by frame, I just realized is what you mean. By logical analysis, you could see what they were trying to achieve though lol
LOL I'm glad I found this tonight, being a percussionist myself, there's been so many times I've seen stuff in animations and actually said something like "no what was actually played was" I'm just glad someone took that extra step to show it! that's great keep them coming!
In terms of the rhythms being slightly off, with only 24/30/60fps, footage can only be accurate to each frame instead of down to the millisecond that we're more used to
Has EMC ever done this but with live action movie drums? I’m thinking stuff like School of Rock and exerts from shows like Glee? As I’m sure there’s some suss drumming in live action!
EMC should actually animate it himself, and in the process gain some insight as to why no-one gives a shit (rightfully) about how accurate the instruments are.
@@V2ULTRAKill Other cartoons are too busy making the animation look, you know, good, as opposed to being easier to animate. Also Family Guy's writing is terrible and time being spent on a fucking instrument is probably a symptom of that.
uhm was it supposed to pause the audio at 1:15 literally i thought i broke my airpods then i went back to case forward and i didn’t think i was so crazy
I love how they're each looking at cameras that aren't even there, since in this scene they're supposed to be rehearsing alone. And how the guitar part keeps going when she stops playing to do the cauldron-stir.
You got great stuff man! in the essence of learning chances are that wasn't rotoscoped but mo-capped, y'know the guys in the suits with the balls all over. Motion capture is basically the 3D model version of what rotoscoping is for 2D animation, so essentially you're bang on. Learning is fun!
Devil's Third was motion captured, not rotoscoped! They had a real drummer playing that solo with a mocap suit and then gave that animation to the in-game model. Same deal that happened with all the Rock Band games (later Guitar Hero as well)
To people who aren't familiar with the details of animation and cinematography, "rotoscope" and "mo-cap" are interchangeable terms. Yes, they're very different techniques that aren't interchangeable in any way, but correcting someone about it is like correcting a layman for using "power" when they really meant "thrust" or vice versa.
This may be one of the most enjoyable things I've found on RU-vid as of late 🤣 how off these shows are at animating drums is absolutely hilarious when you break it down. Subscribed!
That last one likely wasn’t rotoscope, but actually motion capture suits (mocap). The reason you heard some notes but didn’t see them is likely because they stuck the stick to the rotation of the hand, so while the drummer was maybe doing things like rolling, the mocap suit didn’t capture it.
If there’s something I can say about this animated drumming series thing, is that I think it’s a good way for aspiring animators to learn what they shouldn’t do when animating drums so they can make more competent work in the future. Like a way to learn from your mistakes in order to improve your skills, and I think that should be encouraged so people can animate drums more accurately.
I don't blame most animators at all, especially if they're on a tight schedule, as most big companies tend to do. A passion project might definitely lead to higher expectations tho
something like this is also difficult. animators may have to go first and not know what they're animating to, and the audio comes in later. this is more a lesson for the industry
@@EMCproductions I would love to see you reanimate all these scenes yourself without putting in any less effort than the original animators did drawing out all the individual poses, frames and segments.
Since I'm a drummer too, I had to check these videos out. Even I could see how accurate some were and how horrible some of the other animations were. I like how you show what it should look like and what was actually played. It's interesting! I watched the most recent video first then checked out the others. Good stuff!
Hey Eric, just be aware some of the wonkiness of the wwap treatment is caused by you doing this in a video compiler instead of DAW, which has a much lower resolution of time in its grid system. Video data operates at ~30 frames per second, while TV sound operates at 44.1 thousand samples per second. As such, if you’re trying to play say 16th notes at 120 bpm, you would have to space 4 notes across 15 frames, which you can’t do evenly. If you do the same workflow in logic, which does have video support, you’ll have access to more precision.
In premiere Pro, you can easily set the timeline grid to the audio sample rate instead of the frame rate. Been doing it for years to get smooth audio transitions in scenes where the frame rate makes that impossible.
Seems like it's more a case of if Eric is stepping frame-by-frame to work out when the sound should be triggered, then you're effectively quantizing to the nearest frame and then it doesn't matter if you do it in a DAW or video editor.
@@EMCproductions This isn't even close to being the actual problem. Most TV animation is 12 FPS. If you watch it closely enough you can probably see the individual frames. That really isn't going to line up at all with some of the music. The program you use or the video encoding is mostly irrelevant for this, since it's a more basic issue. Some of the animations that are "close" but missing inner notes are going to be exactly this.
I think one of the reasons for the discrepancy between visuals and audio is that oftentimes the bulk of the animation is done before any of the sound is recorded (at least in the past with traditional animation)
You should do the Junes concert in Persona 4 Golden/ Person 4: The Golden Animation (it's basically the same concert but you can see more of the drumming using both).
Compression could definitely be an issue with videos. Uploading, downloading and reuploading videos can distort the content. Same with downloading and re-uploads of pictures.
If you do another episode could you do Crow Song from angel beats? I was always so impressed by its animation but now I’m curious if it’s actually accurate.
actually theres a difference between rotoscoping and motion capture rotoscoping is when you have an actor do something irl (drumming for example) and you trace over every frame for animation think disney hand drawn films or those creepy betty boop cartoons whereas rotoscoping is more for cgi an actor puts on a crazy suit with tacking balls and acts out whatever the computer catches it and the animators can place any cgi puppet over the footage so think any modern video game cutscene (like ivan) or movie scenes like davey jones in pirates of the caribbean anyway hope that clears up things for the next video im an amateur animator and enjoy these break downs
Your description of rotoscoping is a little naive. Yes, the animator works frame-by-frame using live film footage as the model, but in practice, the motion is always modified, exaggerating it in places and skipping details in others. Also, the transfer of motion into animation is never perfectly faithful, not just because it is impractical, but because faithfully copied rotoscoping or motion capture does not blend well with animation made from key frames and in-betweens.
OP introduces there is a contrast of rotoscoping and motion capture, but explains only rotoscoping in a basic form and then wildly incorrectly, never mentioning mocap at all.
Also it might be cool to do comparisons of the different music games. Pick any song from each Rockband and Guitar hero and see which game did the best job animating the drum parts.
My sister won’t stop bugging me, until I suggest for her Human Pinkie Pie in The Rainbooms from MLP EG, Rainbow Rocks, if there’s going to be a part 4 of this series. There! Are ya happy, sis?! Ugh! Just typing that gave me the Jibblies! Jibblie Jibblie Jibblie!
As a "professional" at video (I do video daily for my job) I just have to drop in and say that the VFX term you are looking for is not "rotoscoping". Fortnite and Devil's Third would have more than likely motion-captured or "mo-capped" someone for their emotes. Meaning someone wears a funny suit with a bunch of dots and tracking points that feed into a computer with 3D software that rigs up their animated character to the captured motion with some artist interpretation of course. It is possible they did this and had some other data not match up to the final soundtrack, which is why they ended up with some extra or missed notes. Rotoscoping would mean they took original footage and tracked/cut-out the actual performer and placed it in the video. I don't think that's very likely because that character would have photo-real skin, movement, light shading, etc and he doesn't in this clip. There's my two cents!
So, tv animation typically does not animate at a full 24 fps (yes, transmission is 29.97 fps, but tv animation, like film, tends towards 24 fps). Typically only the most important scenes in a show will be animated "on 1s" at a full 24 fps. The rest may be animated at only 12 fps, or even lower. (At least, this applies to anime, not so sure about western cartoons) I don't know how they typically handle the conversion between 24fps and broadcast "30" fps, but either way, the relatively low framerate of the source material plus the conversion to broadcast framerate, plus potentially other changes in fps due to re-encoding the video all probably contribute to a jacked up framerate in the animation you're watching.
Came here to say something similar. Traditional animation is 24fps. But keep in mind that that season of South Park is computer generated so they can render at 30fps (or 29.97. I don't have a digital raw source so I can't tell you). To answer your uncertainty western cartoons don't animate on 1's and 2's. It's 24fps all the way (at least it was when I was working in animation). But again, this is different for anything computer generated as there's no limitation on what frames they render on. You just set the scene and tell the renderer what frame rate to render at. And to answer your question about conversion, for transmission, it's a kind of dissolve/blend of 2 frames for the times they need an extra frame. If you have an old VHS or TV recorded source, you'll see this if you go frame by frame. It's like if you partially exposed 2 photos on top of each other. On DVD, this is done by interlacing. Literally horizontal slices of one frame and alternating slices of another frame. But to address the original question, the timing shouldn't be off due to frame rate unless the player is playing at a different frame rate. But keep in mind the South Park episodes are typically written and animated within a week or 2 (I didn't believe it either until I did the math) and timing animation to music is pretty hard. As such, they did the best they could, but even in the original broadcast, Cartman and the drum's timing weren't synced. So I don't think it's the video. I think the original animation and/or dialogue.
Hey EMC, I'm a professional animator, and the last clip you ranked wasn't rotoscoped, it was motion captured. Great video btw, I loved every second of it, so silly and fun :D
You can really tell someone comes from an educated background of music when they decide to add a random bar of 6/4 instead of just making it 4/4 and change where the beats are in the next bar.
Okay, here's the problem: any significantly technical drumming is going to happen at greater than 30 percussive events per second, peak. And most animation, like The Simpsons, is actually animated at a slower rate, in the range of 10 to 15 frames per second, to keep costs non-astronomical. So it is not physically possible to accurately show every drum strike for the kind of drumming necessary for a drumline, in a cartoon. My challenge to you is, re-sample the video of YOUR drumming at 15 frames/second, then apply the kind of WWAP analysis you used on the Simpsons clip. Let's see how YOUR drumming performs in YOUR test.
@@JollyGiuseppe It absolutely applies. Since it is physically impossible to accurately animate this, why even try? If they spent five times the time and money to make it as accurate as they could, we would STILL see criticisms like this. The BEST that can be done is to make it look like drumming, and I think they did just fine with that.
@@JollyGiuseppe You clearly don't understand the issues. "Barely even makes an attempt" is a judgement. You have no idea what animators do to make convincing human or animal motion. Not exact matching, because that isn't even possible. I'm talking about it looking like a drummer in action, at all. But that's fine, you believe what you want to.
Somehow found your channel, and had to watch the first 2 to make sure you hadn't already covered. The episode of Live Alive from The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya has a concert at a school festival where they perform 2 songs, "God Knows" and "Lost My Music." Another one I watched but would have TOO MANY drumming segments to catch would be K-On!
That Doug track takes me back...I guarantee if you sung "banging on a trash can" anyone who grew up in the 90's could finish that line. And to quote Bo Burnham talking about Doug for no reason "I skeeter so hard that they call her Patty Mayonnaise."
it's pretty hard to make sounds line up in an animation, you only have 24, 30, or maybe 60 frames per second compared to the 48,000 samples per second audio has
I just found your channel, and you've given me even more inspiration to get back into percussion! Thanks! I really like the way you showcase the original example and the notation with your demonstration of the proper technique. Very entertaining, and informative. Thanks!!
Definitely need to give Beck! (Mongolian Chop Squad) a go. It revolves around building a band and focuses primarily on guitar, but there's a whole plot line around finding the right drummer and i'd be curious if the animation is as on point as it feels to us non-drummers
When it comes to animation, this is one of the most challenging things, because there may not always be audio to listen for when the section is made. Or maybe instructions aren't always clear as to how the scene will line up in the final edit. Doug is a good example of animating the scene before having the audio. The effort was at least made to try to open the mouth near to where the words were, at least.
The Takarajima Station concert in Sound! Euphonium season 2 had some brief moments of both drum set and auxiliary percussion that may be worth looking at
Im a professional singer, nearly 40 years old now, and I still remembered the lyrics and melody of that Doug song. I think I still remember the chords on guitar too...
