Dumb and Dumber: 22 TCM vs. 5.7x28 

The 22TCM is an underrated round that suffers from bad marketing. I would have named it the 223micro.

FYI the double stack 17rd 22TCM FS 1911 is still made and sold. I recently bought one (two mags supplied) from Sportsman's Warehouse, and, my experience (not just an opinion) is that it has so far proved to be flawlessly reliable and very accurate. Like 38 Super, it isn't widely stocked ammo, true, but I've found it on the shelves of some gun shops, and I've ordered it in bulk from both Cabelas and Sportsmans Warehouse at half the price of 5.7x28! At 74 y.o. I no longer handle the bigger bore handguns as well as I once did, so the light recoiling 22TCM is a welcome addition to my choice of EDCs. The 22TCM FS double stack is certainly not a toy, it is seriously all business, and the penetration capabilities of the lead hollow point round on soft body armor can be improved (if required) by reloading with pointed copper bullets. The conversion kit with a 9mm Glock reportedly has its issues, and also chambers a shortened version of the 22TCM round called TCM9R. To say the noise and muzzle blast of 22TCM is a con, really is a "con" when you promote shooting pistols chambered in 10mm. How many rounds of 10mm do you put through your pistol at any one range session? I shoot my 22TCM a lot, and thoroughly enjoy it! Also, compare some of the videos out there exposing the reliability and functionality of some of those 5.7 pistols you claim are better. BTW one can take advantage of the Armscor deal (like I did) to provide proof of your 2024 purchase of a 22TCM FS 1911and get a free double stack 17rd mag along with 100 rounds of ammo.

Not so much applicable in the USA but in other countries where you have to register each gun or where there is a limit to the number of guns that can be owned, a multi-caliber gun can be very beneficial and a huge PRO for the cartridge.

I actually have both. The 5.7 Rock is incredible in every way except ammo cost, additionally it's full size makes it an awkward choice for me other then when I am fully dressed (like a suit) in winter gear. For the 22TCM9R, I have the MAPP edition which is built by Tanfoglio under license by Armscor/Rock Island. This is essentially a compact 9mm Tanfoglio Witness (DASA) in 22TCM9R and uses a 16 round magazine that fits any 9mm CZ. The MAPP is a CZ clone in nature and has been incredibly reliable and handles the 22TCM9R round which is 39gr vs 40. I have carried the 22TCM (same as my G19) with just a shirt or tee on, not going to happen with the Roc (a full 8 vs 6.75in).

5.7x28 is making huge gains as of lately. Lots of new guns chambered in the caliber and PSA ammo coming in line. These factors will be the death of .22 TCM

Having a single stack magazine for such a small caliber round is self-defeating, since one of the advantages of going small is having more shots in the magazine.

I had a Rock Island TCM Tactical when they first came out and it performed flawlessly

One pro for the 22tcm is that it doubles as a flashbang in close quarters combat in the dark.

I have the RIA TAC Ultra 22TCM/9MM combo, love this firearm and it is a flamethrower!!!! I have toyed with the idea of getting a 5.7x28, (and it would be the PSA) but the price of the ammo has kept me from doing so.(so far) Great video Tim.

They should make the 22 tcm in a long slide pistol. Eek out a little more velocity, would be cool I think.

Here in Utah, I always see TCM on the shelves. I recently bought a used double stack 9mm/TCM 1911. Now looking for their bolt action rifle for coyotes. The only thing I wish from Armscor is that they would produce a light AP round in TCM. Here is my “two cents:” 5.7 is a tactical caliber. TCM is a versatile multi-purpose caliber, perfect for varmint control, super fun at the range, and a capable defensive round if you choose to use it.

22 magnum, especially with rounds like federal punch, is becoming a really cool little round in all these new pistols like the Walther and the Keltecs out there.

Note: using low end 5.7 ammo: It seems that the high end 5.7 ammo combined with an 8" barrel ( or more ) is the sweet spot for 5.7

5.7 has finally become mainstream and I'm so happy about it!

The TCM must be mismarketed or misunderstood. It’s cool though. Thanks! I had no idea what it was.

Necked pistol rounds, really need more love

I've been pretty happy with my PSA 5.7 Rock. I had a few attempts at the gun trying to load 2-3 rounds at a time, but that seems to have fixed itself with use. Fun to suppress. Shoots accurately.

Everything you said about the .22TCM was said about the 5.7 when it was first released for the commercial market. It will be interesting to see what the future holds for the .22TCM.

I feel bad for the 22tcm. It has a lot of potential, but it just doesn't have the manufacturer support. Get a little bit of marketing support from one or two big manufacturers and it would really take off.

I would totally get into 22 TCM if there were more ammo options!

Just bought a NEW double stack. I honestly think you have the single double issue backwards. There are also barrel kits for Glock that fire 22T9R.a round made specific for 9mm mag well. Just an fyi. Great vid You did hit nail on head about it basically being a fun range gun. I've had 2, they are great for instruction and getting a new shooter over the noise flinch.

Love your stuff brother. I own the .22TCM rifle. Great coyote slayer to 150 so far. Tack driver accuracy.

On the projectile expansion, the TCM appears circular, and the 5.7 more square. If you took the area given the measurements of each, the TCM comes out with a larger area. Of course, all the other lingering issues of TCM still apply. It's neat, but I doubt anyone else will ever pick it up.

One problem I've noted with the .22 TCM is the fact that there is plenty of exposed, soft lead that catches on the feed ramp pretty easily during feeding. That being said, the last time I took it out, it worked a lot better than when I first got it. I've handloaded for it as well and the loads worked fine, but the bullets had to be seated very deeply, so bullet choices are limited to lighter weight and/or stubby in profile. EDIT: The trigger on the Rock Island pistol is excellent in my opinion, better than my other 1911 type pistols.

Twenty years or so ago there was a gunsmith in Louisiana that necked down a 9x23 to .22 and called it the .22 Zipperer. I always thought it was a super cool concept and wanted one badly. Before that Jeff Cooper talked about how a center fire .22 at around 2000 FPS would make a dandy trail gun or maybe for self defense. I really never liked the FN 5.7x28 cartridge or pistol. When RIA came out with the 22TCM I was ecstatic. I was finally able to purchase a .22/9mm combo. I’m not disappointed, the performance and fireball are great fun and recoil is basically non-existent, and the 1911 configuration makes it that much better. I just wish that RIA would get SAAMI to standardize the cartridge, as it stands it’s a lot cheaper to shoot than 5.7x28.

I love How he left out the 22TCM9R which was made for G19/G17 and only needs a new barrel

It’s awesome seeing 5.7x28mm and 10MM gaining traction/availability. But even so, I’m gravitating back towards 9x19mm and .22LR due to the current climate.

Whoa! Hold up! You mean to tell me that a company that is mostly known for making 1911s with an average MSRP of $758.50 doesn't have as good of a quality control department as a company that specializes in making 1911s with an average MSRP of $2004.24? What's next? Telling us that an off-the-shelf .308 Savage Axis with an old Tasco scope won't be as accurate as a custom-built chassis system rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor with a Zeiss scope. Give us some warning when you get to that one. Wouldn't want anyone to die of shock or anything.

The 5.7 handguns only make sense if you can get the good ammo like Elite ammunition. But they're not even making ammo right now because they can't seem to get materials. Until PSA starts cranking out ammo and brings the price of plinking ammo down and comes out with penetrator rounds it's not really going to explode like it could.

Also for people who reload, the TCM round can be made from 223/5.56 brass. And how much dinged neck and shoulder 5.56 brass have you seen at the range?

The expanded surface area of the 22 TCM would be greater than that of the 5.7. The 22TCM was more circular with an area of 0.066 sq-in while the 5.7 was more closely to that of a square shape where you measured the hypotenuse, thus having an area of 0.048 sq-in.

The 22 tcm is awesome. I have it in the Glock model wich takes the 22 tcm R to fit the Glock 9mm mags. And a rock island wich takes the 22 tcm and is in the awesome wide body 20+ rd mags and with just a barrel change you can swap to 9mm and still enjoy the rock island elite model. The best part is that rock island also makes a bull barrel bolt action rifle wich takes the 20+ rd pistol mags and it is accurate and squeezes more velocity out of the round. You should have added these points into the video. Also the 22 tcm isn’t a new idea. They just perfected it. Before the 22 tcm was the 224 BOZ wich was a necked down 10mm to 22 cal or something like that. And if the only reliability issue with a sample size of one is a 5 to 10 min tuning of the slide lock thats not bad. I have had both models of the rock island and neither have ever had a hiccup. But yes they arent a staccato or even a Springfield prot but it also is only 500 to 600$. And the rifle is really is nice and to have a nice long range bolt gun that uses the same mags. The Glock model wich is the 22tcm R I built myself and it works so good it is my go to rig pistol. That being said I love the 5.7x 28 is awesome too. That is why I almost have all the pistols that shoot it and a p 90 wich is so much fun. But I will say that the price of the 5.7x28 ammo is ridicules and it should I way be 50 to 60$ a box. Let’s hope when PSA get their brass & steel cased ammo they will crank out affordable and reliable ammo for the 5.7 , 556, 762, 5.45 ext and others and allow people to get out shooting more.

Sold my .22TCM not too long ago.. fireball for sure and low recoil that is about it.. I had extraction issues and mag we troublesome but in the end was not worth the expense.

For me, the two things that interest me in the 22TCM are 1. The grip of a pistol will mirror that of a 9mm. I have large hands but short fingers so I prefer a a smaller grip that isn't very deep(?) from the back to front strap. Hence why I haven't found any 5.7 handguns to feel good in my hands. 2. The potential in a light, handy bolt action or semi auto carbine/rifle. If you can get upwards of 2800 FPS out of a carbine or 20" barrel, you are looking at a potentially fantastic varmit gun, more power than a 22 WRM with the (assumed) ability to handload/reload. That is definitely a potentially winning idea, especially if it can be paired with a handgun that could share ammo. Imagine a lightened Ruger PC carbine and Glock/M&P/Sig combo for a ranch, bugout, of survival combo. Something that I would definitely like to see.

My RIA 9mm/22TCM has been a champ. I also fitted a 38 Super barrel to it. A tiny bit of filing on the mag floor plate fixed the lock open with one round thing. With the trigger and action job done it’s as sweet as any 1911 that costs much more

I've never watched a video from you that felt like it was as long as the timer says. Very informative and entertaining. Thanks MAC

If 22 TCM got any of the marketing or support anywhere near 5.7, it would hands down be the better cartridge. It has better performance, you can load any number of 223/556 bullets into it, so it would always be on top. 5.7 just has the casing diameter going for it, meaning more rounds in a mag. Imagine one of these in a pocket pistol like a P365 or Hellcat. Just imagine any other platform with 22 TCM as the cartridge. There are glock conversions, but those suffer from reliability issues from what I've found online, because the slides are too heavy if I'm correct. As well as a slightly different chambering, 22 TCM9R.

Bit of a nitpick: Just because the newer cartridge is longer doesn't automatically mean that the older cartridge can't be the parent case. The .38 Special is the parent case of the .357 Magnum, which is itself the parent case for the .357 Remington Maximum, and the .38 Special is the shortest case of that bunch. The .44 Russian is the parent case for the .44 Special, and the .44 Special is the parent case for the .44 Magnum. The parent case for the .308 Winchester is the .300 Savage, which is based on the .250 Savage, both of which are shorter than the .308 Winchester. I could probably dig around and find more examples if I really needed to, but these were the examples that immediately came to mind.

The 22 Spitfire (5.7 Johnson) lives on.

22 tcm would be awesome out of a reliable firearm. I just don't want to jump on board when RIA is the only handgun offering 22 tcm as a chambering.

When they announced the tcm I was Soooo looking forward to it and I just KNEW this exact scenario of one source for ammo and guns would play out. I wish the big names came out promoting it initially so it could have gotten a better start.

Tcm all the way for me. I have owned both but not at the same time but I preferred the TCM by far. If people would just give it a chance, then more guns and ammo would be made.

I believe the RIA 5.0 is going to be available in .22tcm9r also available will be a 2.5 pound trigger. The owner of RIA said these things at shot show. Didn’t say how long till market of course.

Wish we had more market support for the TCM. It's a good cartridge. And I love the convertible 9mm guns that RIA made to go with them. Fantastic concept that fell out of style bc of poor marketing along with Armscors refusal to allow other companies to load it. I used to see 22TCM in Cabela's every time I walked in, but that was pre pandemic. TBH, I haven't noticed it in a while, but then again, I haven't been looking for it either so... yeah. And TCMs operating pressures, still aren't as high as 30soup. Another reason why I don't see the super carry making too long either, (unless the industry keeps cramming it down everyone's throats, then folks will be sorta forced to accept it). I still wouldn't mind seeing more 357sig though 🤔

I once saw one of the bolt action rifles in a local gun shop and handled it for a few minutes. It surprisingly had one best triggers I had ever felt on a simple production gun. I was so impressed I almost bought the gun just because of the trigger. But having a 17hmr and 22mag rifles I talked myself out of the "need".

The 22 TCM 9R is a shorter version of the 22 TCM and the 9R can be used in Glock conversions for this caliber. The malfunction is a magazine/slide stop issue and could be easily corrected by a competent gunsmith. Armscor also has a very good warranty service.

Availability really holds the TCM back. I've never seen it on a shelf and it's out of stock any time I check online stores

Still love .22tcm, n am happy to see someone talkin about it. 5.7 has a few decades on it

I really can't believe that Tim neglected the aftermarket conversion kits for the 22tcm.

I got the 22TCM conversion for one of my Glocks, not as a defensive caliber (I have that covered) but as a variable for the range or possibly a trail critter load. No reliability issues yet & lots of fun!

I love the concept of the 22 tcm and 9 mm combo. I just wish it was made more plentiful across other manufacturers. Hopefully it survives, but I guess I won't hold my breath.

Agree the 68 gr XD bullet loaded by Underwood is everything you say it is at the 6:30 mark. The Underwood 357 Sig XD 68gr round at a real world velocity of 2200 + fps and 765 ft. lbs. of energy smokes the 9mm and 5.7 in over all performance.

Now do 4.6x30 HK and cringe even harder

*Laughs in 7.62x25* On a serious note, yes, I knew almost 10 years ago that this 5.7 would become huge, ans everyone said, "No, bro, don't get the 5.7. It'll never take off and they're too expensive. You'll end up having a gun that nobody makes the bullets for.". Yet, look where we are now. I'm not disappointed.

Love the 5.7 rock! Paid 400 for an optics ready slide and complete frame. Add 100$ for 5 mags and you're at 500.

Hey Tim, Gunbroker has 2, 22 TCM rifles for sale right now. They aren’t the tactical model but with the wood stock, instead.

Hi Mac I live in Michigan and have a . 22 tcm rifle. I could bring it down to you to shoot if you're interested, if not no worries. Excellent content.

If Armscore would make a barrel for the long slide large frame glocks, it would do everything. The 22TCM9R for Glock 17s is a lot of fun and works flawlessly.

I got a Rock Island Armory 22 TCM barrel and spring kit for my Glock 19. Jams fairly regularly so not something I would carry for self defense. But man does the 22 TCM have a presence at the range. Muzzle blast the size of a watermelon! And the BOOM is epic. BTW, the PSA Rock 5.7 pistol is currently on clearance on their website for $299!!! I just ordered 2 more…

There’s so many different 5.7x28 rounds from AP ammo/ FMJ/ hollow points/ polymer tips/ you have the gold dots/ some sub sonic hollow points that open up bigger than a 25cent us Quarter/ you even have Special frangible rounds that break into 3 peace’s I love 57

A 22 tcm carbine or pdw style pistol with an 8 inch or longer barrel would be ideal for better efficiency of the cartridge.

The actual story--according to a conversation I had with RIA owner, Martin Tuason is that there were barrels of reject brass that RIA gunsmith Frank Craig saw at Armscorp and he asked if he could take some to develop this cartridge he had been thinking about. The reason it was developed for the 1911 is that RIA is the world's largest manufacturer of 1911s. I fired one at SHOT Show a couple of years ago, and it's definitely a pretty cool cartridge. The offerings in 1911 are far too big for CCW in my opinion. I haven't played with the Glock conversion, but based on the limited ammunition that's available, it's definitely a niche round. In my opinion, this probably shouldn't be anybody's first, or for that matter second, or even third handgun. If you are into cool guns and cartridges, it's probably worth owning.

you should definitely check out the black dragon fang, Its a pretty gnarly defensive round for the 5.7.

The three limiting factors of firepower: Rate of fire , Combat range, Terminal effect. Make all of your decisions on an aggregate of these three. Personally I don't even want to be hit by an air rifle pellet. So go ahead and make all the overblown comparisons you like. You are better off armed than unarmed. Good video, thanks for all you do.

Glad to see more and cheaper loads available on the market for the 5.7x28. Not a huge fan of pistols in that caliber but the Ruger LC carbine makes a nice truck gun. Needs a better trigger but it has promise.

Look at the Rock Island M22 TCM BA rifle. It is in semi-auto. A very fine rifle for the TCM cartridge.

They need to make a modern polymer framed double stack in 22 tcm with modern features ifbthey want to see it take off better

I realize this is an old videos but I just got my hands the S&W 5.7x28 and I put a 407k red dot on it and I'm into it 900$ or so. I have not yet to shoot it do to me getting back surgery but I definitely fell in love with the ergonomics and the trigger break is crisp. Two things I love. Right now ammo is 35 to 40 dollars for 50 rounds. That part sucks but if you grab a box of ammo every check and sacrifice the energy drinks it's not that bad. I recommend it for anyone with decent size hands because it is incredibly comfortable.

22TCM can be bought for $35 a hundred. I have never had an issue with my 22TCM. In my opinion, if you have a 22TCM, no need to go with the 5.7, but each to their own.

Excellent video, and a fun topic. I love the 22 TCM and would like to see it gain some popularity and industry presence... but agree with your assessment on the comparison.

Excellent video guys! Very good comparison,I’d love too see that mythical 22TCM rifle.

I love my 22TCM/ 9mm 1911. I got mine not long after they came out. 17 +1 is a win IMO. I had the same issue with the last round so I sent it back to Armscor and they fixed the issue. I have a Para Ordinance 14/ 45 as well.

For me, the main drawback of the 22 TCM is that it doesn't utilize a Spitzer style bullet and therefore has almost zero potential to penetrate body armor 😕

I have a T/C Contender 14" 22 Jet barrel that is fun to shoot. With handloads and soft, cast bullets, it is one of my fav close range, rock chuck shooting set ups. On my parent's place in Idaho, the 'chucks get under the rocks, buildings, and eat a lot of alfalfa. The little 22 Jet does not make a lot of noise, and if I miss, the soft lead bullets just flatten on the rocks and I don't have to worry too much about ricochets. With a 5.7x28, I would worry about bouncing rounds off rocks and into my parent's farm critters, buildings, expensive machinery or the roadway.

22tcm needs some PSA support

I did not run across this month-old video until today. Absolutely the perfect title for such a video!

I guess the only question that matters is whether 22tcm or 5.7 will penetrate the upgraded armor that high table forces are using 🤔 😁

I have owned a single stack RIA 22TCM tactical for several years. It's one of my favorite range guns. While some of the concerns expressed in the video are certainly valid, I believe the value of the 9mm/22TCM combo was understated. Same for the price difference between the 22TCM and 5.7 cartridges. To many folks, that price difference is significant and important. As to quality, I can honestly say that my "sample of 1" has been 100% reliable through thousands of rounds. I don't remember having any kind of malfunction. One other point. While I can't speak to the 5.7 in any pistol (never owned one), I can offer that the 22TCM out of my RIA is by far the most accurate pistol I have ever owned... and I've owned a LOT. I attribute that accuracy to the light, smooth trigger and the almost non-existent recoil of the firearm. It is an absolute joy to shoot.

I love your honesty!!!! Too many gun reviewers just selling guns for manufacturers. The gun mags are the same too. So you Tim, are a breath of fresh air

Maybe Panzer Arms could research making an upper similar to the AR57 upper to chamber the 22TCM using a similar magazine and setup. That would cut down the blast and utilize the powder that is being wasted out the barrel. See how that makes it perform.

From the look of the entry angle for each round, the 5.7 has MUCH less drop at that distance, making aiming over a range of distances much easier. That right there is worth more than all the features you could ever add to a gun.

22tcm9R would be an interesting thing to cover..you can get a barrel and recoil spring kit for any gen 3 9mm Glock.And your absolutely correct with the boom..it sounds like a 44mag but feels like a 22mag.

You sir, are a showman. I dig it.

First time hearing about 22TCM, thanks for the knowledge transfer Sir

I love my .22 TCM 1911. I don't use it for self defense. That is reserved for my FN 509. I hate that you didn't get a reliable 1911, Tim. I've fired mine many times and never had a bit of trouble with reliability. Good information in the video, though.

I tried using the 22 TCM 9R, which is the version of the 22 TCM designed to work in standard 9mm length actions like the Glock. I tried the Glock 17 and 19 conversion kits, as well as the RIA MAPP pistol, which is supposed to run the 22 TCM 9R cartridge specifically. I couldn't get it to work reliably in any of them. Failure to feed, short stroking, failure to extract... You name it, all of them did it. Part of me suspects that the factory ammunition is very inconsistent. But at this point it doesn't matter. I can't get it to work so I don't bother using it. I went and got a FiveseveN, and just use that instead. Yes, the ammunition costs more. But it is utterly reliable.

Think they’re both good varminters. I’m hoping to get a 22tcm barrel soon

The term you're looking for is sectional density. It's the one of, if not the biggest, determining factors in penetration. It's the reason that heavy-for-caliber rounds tend to penetrate greater than lighter rounds. One can play tricks and mess with bullet material to play with the numbers, but it follows the same argument as 'there's no replacement for displacement'

I would like to see an extreme penetrator style round in the 22tcm!

I understand that running these rounds in handguns is the basis of the video but…. I remember when the TCM was introduced and they advertised the bolt action rifle that was chambered in it, not for everyone but a cool concept I thought. I think that a 5.7x28 in a compact bolt action would be a handy little varmint gun, I would also like to see a Controlled Chaos 5.7 round. Great topic for conversation as usual, thanks for all that you do!

FN 5.7 - when you want 22 TCM performance, but the 22 TCM just doesn't cost *enough*

PSA Rock your favorite 5.7 pistol? I’d like to see a comparison between that and the new M&P in 5.7. I’m not sure which I like more…

As a reloader, the tcm is quite intriguing 🤔

They need to make 22TCM AR barrels (blow back, using 9mm BCG) or for the Ruger PC carbine, it probably works better in a rifle than pistol and being able to swap in a 9mm platform would be a bonus with these rifles.

5.7x28 only interests me in so far as it demonstrates manufacture willingness and consumer demand for grip frames and magazines large enough to accommodate magnum length cartridges. Bring on the 10mm mag, 9mm mag, 44 amp, 45 win mag

those 2 cals to me seem ONLY for people who think the 9mm has to much recoil. you show these being shot out of FULL size guns and in full size guns 9mm is a sweet heart that has great ballistics. love innovation and i dig nitch or boutique stuff but for everyday in a full size gun 9mm is hard to beat

Update, you can now buy .22tcm uppers for normal 1911s. Make your favorite 1911 a tcm, temporarily.

Been saying for year that i'm more impressed with the 22 tcm then the 5.7. Think i even mentioned it on your channel few times. Only reason 5.7 is taking off cause it has military backing.

I live on a ranch, these rounds work great on varmints. My 5.7 Rock will group well under 3” at 50 yards from a rest. With a two MOA dot, skunks, armadillos, gofers and coyotes that I run across randomly are in trouble. It’s much easier to carry than a carbine, can connect further than a standard sidearm and it’s with me. And could be used for self defense if necessary.

5.7 SS190 out of a pistol is beyond impressive!