Dune: How Myths Create Reality 

What are your thoughts? Is Dune a cautionary tale or just a sci-fi trope?

8:03 OK, I gotta stop you right there. Paul WANTED to fix things, but he physically couldn't. By the time Paul got his ability to see into all possible futures, he saw that the path that would lead to universal genocide had already started. He saw that, even if he took his own life to try to stop it, the result would still be catastrophic, since the Fremen would make a martyr out of him. What Paul does is to try to stay in the path that would result in the smallest amount of bloodshed possible. It just so happens that, due to the scale of the story, that "smallest amount" was in the billions of people. We have to keep in mind that Herbert wanted to warn us against charismatic leaders, not because he thought they were all necessarily evil, either secretly or otherwise, but because they were human beings, just a fallible as everyone else.

Among other things, Dune is a timeless warning against heroes and idols

A lot of critics who have never actually read Dune think it's a "white savior" story. That's like thinking Lord of the Rings is about fancy jewelry.

As Liet-Kynes' dad once said: “No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero”

One thing that always struck me about Dune as I was reading it was how it felt like reading a biography and messianic text in parallel--with Paul stuck in the middle, knowing that he's stuck on this path and that he cannot change his story anymore. The manufactured prophecies blended with the actual style and presentation of the text as a whole. It just works together really well.

"Greatness is a transitory experience. It is never consistent. It depends in part upon the myth-making imagination of humankind. The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in. He must reflect what is projected upon him. And he must have a strong sense of the sardonic. This is what uncouples him from belief in his own pretensions. The sardonic is all that permits him to move within himself. Without this quality, even occasional greatness will destroy a man." -Frank Herbert, Dune

Wisecrack: "Get ready for a deep dive into Dune." Quinn's Ideas: "Hold my beer". At first Paul and Jessica used the Missionaria Protectiva in order to survive. Later, Paul used it to get revenge on the Harkonnens. By the time Paul had become prescient enough to see where his actions would lead, it was too late. He saw that Muad'Dib's Jihad would go on with or without him and all he could do was try to mitigate the damage. He entertained walking away multiple times, and when he finally found a way out, it cost him his lover, his eyesight and his power, leaving his children to make the hard sacrifices to find the Golden Path.

If you read the later books it really solidifies everything he's saying about Dune. A majority of the series is about creating a galaxy without the need for messianic leaders.

I think Dune was to me the first introduction to the idea that systems themselves propagate power, not individuals. Herbert had a kind of wild life too.

“Dune” is a masterpiece for three reasons. 1. The big-scale depicting all the six elements of civilization, science & technology, economic & social (including cultural) activity, laws & policies, material resources, human resources, natural & social environments. 2. The ingenious SF settings that improve human abilities, reviving old weapons or schemes. 3. The theme tells us the importance of human improvement, not only of some people but all the people. I think the author tried hard to balance entertainment & reality.

As the Dune series goes on, Herbert made a point of hammering the "Blindly following a charismatic leader is bad" point with increasing bluntness.

The massage in Herbert's dune goes beyond "the dangers of charismatic ruler", as it's a commentary on belief structures that lead to creation of messiahs and saviors that captivate people's minds to do everything for them. The plague that humans created for themselves which chained all future generations. At the end, Paul was not a savior (as he regularly mentions himself) and he was forced to be a dictator like ruler, but even he didn't posses the strength to truly free humanity from the chains mentioned before. His legacy was almost a failure, if it wasn't because of his decadent.

Hello Americans, I'm from the future (also known as Europe). Dune is really good! Totally worth seeing!

It's a good video, but I'd argue that Paul didn't fight his terrible purpose because he knew it was inevitable. This is a character that can see the future and how his actions will affect the galaxy, and really early in the book where Paul fights a fremen (whose name I forgot right now) in a cave, he knows that even if he were to be killed, he would become a martyr, and the war would still take place. This isn't an excuse for his actions obviously, but Paul's fate was sealed long before he had any say in it. Edit: The fremen's name was Jamis, the fight takes place in the same chapter Paul takes the name Muad'Dib

So lucky to have such a visionary director take the helm of this project. I was blown away while I streamed dune last night and can’t wait to go watch it in imax. This movie was an amazing part one but we NEED a part two for it to be truly iconic. Please for the love of good art, cinema, storytelling, and fun support this movie officially if you can. We don’t want another game of thrones where the beginning is amazing but the end is forgettable leaving it in the past of many.

“And Paul saw how futile were any efforts of his to change any smallest bit of this. He had thought to oppose the jihad within himself, but the jihad would be. His legions would rage out from Arrakis even without him. They needed only the legend he already had become.” Go back and watch what your own Thug Notes video has to say about Paul, you got it right the first time.

You guys should really do a series of an episode each on the books, or at least Messiah, Children, and God Emperor. The way the themes youve brought up here evolve through the series is really incredible, especially in Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune.

As a European, I’ve already seen the movie and it is beyond amazing. 10/10, every frame a painting, super captivating, can’t wait for part two.

I know books aren't super cool these days, but it would be cool if you covered the book series. There is so much more past the first book to discuss.

My dad, who has since passed away loved this book and the earlier movie. I never got into it but am willing to give a 2022 version a try. My dad would definitely be excited. Wish he was here.

'I don't like Dune because it is just reinforcing the white messiah myth' "Oh, cool, so you havnt actually read it yet? Or were you just unable to understand it?"

A huge part of the Dune series after the first book is about making sure that what happened in the first book can never ever ever happen again. Frank Herbert said in an interview that Dune was written with existentialist themes central in his mind, which include the importance of individual authenticity and awareness of one's own freedom. Herbert doesn't go into detail that I am aware of about exactly what he means by that. What I've noticed is that the series shows how the Fremen are manipulated by the Bene Gesserit into believing in myths which empower Paul and allow him to use the Fremen to accomplish goals which are not necessarily in their best interest. The Fremen belief in prophecy dooms them to carry out actions which destroy their culture, strip them of their freedom, and make them into the blind instrument of a genocide which they falsely believe is the inevitable will of God. Paul is doomed by his nearly unlimited knowledge of all possible futures to have no personal freedom about which path he takes in life. His abilities eventually make him into a human supercomputer with power and knowledge similar to a god, but this also strips him of his humanity, transforms him into the unwilling figurehead of a genocidal prophecy and prevents him from living out his true desire for a simple human life with the woman he loves. A lot of why the Dune sequels have never been as popular as the first book is because the second book in the series in particular is absolutely brutal about how it shows this tragic message play out, while the first book is much more subtle about what it implies will be the ultimate consequences of Paul's hero's journey. The first book really makes you *feel* the seductiveness of Paul's cult of personality and the righteousness of Paul and the Fremen's motivations and character. As a result the second book ends up dropping on a lot of folks like a continuous succession of flaming pianos dropping out of a 20th-floor window. The second book is an incredibly impactful and masterfully written tragedy which is only hard to read because of how incredibly good it is and because of how relevant its themes are for the world we live in. Its underrated even today not because it is bad but because it is simply way too good to handle. The fourth book is arguably the best in the series. The fourth book is the one which ties all of the others together, and it is one of the best and most unique books in all of science fiction. Dune shares the themes of the classic Monty Python's Life of Brian: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-iktKXIsRUIg.html I wouldn't be surprised at all if Life of Brian was directly inspired by some of the themes of the first two books in the Dune series. Life of Brian lacks Dune's ecological themes and quite a few others, but the existential themes are very similar. Ah, here is the interview where Herbert mentions Dune's existentialist themes. Its a fascinating interview: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-A-mLVVJkH7I.html

I think the cultural legacy of Dune didn't include the savior critique. In part, this is because it is not a central part of the first book but only one of it element. The critique became stronger in the Dune sequel but they had far less of a cultural impact and legacy compared to the first book. Interestingly, that help keep Dune fairly relevant today which is not the case for the other 1966 Hugo best of all times nominee with the exception of the Lord of the Rings and, to a far lesser degree than LotR , Foundation.

Dune deserves a TV series remake with the same robust budget and longevity as Game of Thrones.

I still remember seeing this in 1984 (was a huge fan after recently reading some of them)... and saying too loud in a quiet theater "Wait, is it raining!?"

12:52 "but stories, Dune warns us, can also be fuel for destructive forces used to justify and reinforce unfair power disparities." Oh, thank goodness no one's doing that today.

I’ve been reading and rereading dune for 15 years and I’m always seeing something differently or learning something new. That said God Emperor of Dune is the GOAT. Long live the Duncan Idaho Ghola

Dune was great for me as a child back in the day. 2021 version is just as good. It is being stretched out even more so and I love that decision.

The God Emperor Leto the second would be pleased. The golden path endures.

As a Honduran, Dune fan & long-time Wisecrack subscriber I never thought Yoro's raining fish would ever be featured on any of your videos. Anyway awesome video guys!

The Fremen Jihad was coming whether Paul was at the head of it or not. It's mentioned multiple times in the book that pretty much everything Paul is doing is to mitigate a galaxy wide war as much as possible. It's disingenuous to attribute everything he did as a will to power and out of entitlement.

As a kid I only saw the epic world building and Paul's hero's journey, but as an adult, I can see all of Herbert's warnings about self-fulfilling prophecy and idolatry.

“The Romans broadcast the pharaonic disease like grain farmers scattering the seeds of next season’s harvest-Caesars, kaisers, tsars, imperators, caseris … palatos … damned pharaohs!”

As Donna Haraway said, “It matters what matters we use to think other matters with; it matters what stories we tell to tell other stories with; it matters what knots knot knots, what thoughts think thoughts, what descriptions describe descriptions, what ties tie ties. It matters what stories make worlds, what worlds make stories.”

One part of the book that struck me was that Paul knew his actions would result in a galactic civil war and tons of would perish. But I thought the book did a good job of making it feel like this was unavoidable IF they wanted a different system/society. In other words, Paul never considered stopping his uprising but not because he just had to be king--it was because the universe deserved it ;) After what you just covered, it makes even more sense. Paul never saw himself as anything less than a God/King/Leader.

This also makes it out like Paul is a conman, he isn't. He legit has those powers and is forced to allow travesties to occur as the alternative is far worse and he will father an even more powerful character that will similarly be forced to allow himself to be known as a tyrant be many to keep human kind from literally going extinct. These are tragic characters, not some snake oil salesmen.

Philosophers in Space is a great podcast that has three whole episodes breaking down Dune.

I was a fan of Dune story. Now I am a full Air Conditioner

I'd disagree that Paul is enthusiastically taking advantage of the Fremen's belief in him as a messiah. Paul keeps getting trapped in everyone's prophesies which put power in his lap, but he is terrified of where that power will lead. Part of his tragedy is that as he becomes more and more prescient, which you'd think would make him more powerful, he becomes even more trapped and powerless as he realizes what a powder keg he's on and how inconsequential his life really is as anything other than a catalyst. He can't handle it, and can't bring himself to take the extreme actions that would actually change the future significantly (the actions that his son will take). The colonial critique is there for the Bene Gesserit, but Paul isn't interested in their goals he just wants revenge on the Harkonnens. Yet everything he does accelerates the universe towards war because of how the Emperor and the Bene Gesserit have set up the whole situation to explode, assuming that they would be the ones to control the terms of the explosion. This video's take that "yes Paul is an unabashed colonialist, and that's the point! He's a villain!!" makes me nervous, because it makes the story racist unless Paul is made out to be an unambiguous dick, and given that as portrayed by Timothee he will certainly be more of a cool hot action boy, that's setting up for failure and bad vibes... A more believable, less racially dicey, and truer to the text take is that the Emperor and Bene Gesserit are the colonialists and that Paul sets off a chain of events that is more powerful in scope than he can embody or control, even when he himself is its figurehead and possesses godlike powers.

So excited for this movie. I listened to the entire series on audiobook while rebuilding a car. The book series explores so many different themes and schools of thought as they progress that I really hope they can at least make the 3 original books into movies.

We need to circle back to the raining fish thing… that’s some good fun

I love how in David Lynchs movie when Paul made it magically rain somehow ? Which he can't do in the books but that scene just ignored the whole ecology of dune because if it did rain on dune then it would kill all the sandworms as they would be drowned so no more spice. I hope there aren't any big inconsistencies like this in the new dune.

Pretty sure Dune was the co-winner of the 1966 Hugo award with This Immortal by legendary author Roger Zelazny (The Chronicles of Amber, Lord of Light). While This Immortal hasn't stood the test of time anywhere near the as well as Dune (looking back 55 years later it's actually laughable that they tied) it still was considered at the time to be equivalent. Really just wanted to shout out Zelazny, dude was amazing and weird and really ahead of his time.

Not sure I agree that Paul “wanted” to be become emperor I think for him his actions were guided thru the lense of self preservation. It was also difficult to prevent the jihad when he hadn’t fully come into his powers yet. I always remember when Paul told his mom “you made me a monster” as him expressing his sustain for the institutions he was brought up in. I think he just wanted to be a kid at the end of the day not the ruler of a galaxy

You should really do a video on Leto in the later books (don't want to spoil anything). That is my favourite character in all of fiction

The complexity def comes from how many characters perspectives we get in the book. Without even changing chapters or anything you get different perspectives of every thing happening. This makes it able to discuss many different ideas on these very difficult and deep philosophical questions.

THANK YOU for making this video! As a huge fan of Frank Herbert's Dune, I've had legit arguments with people about the fact that Paul is not a "good guy", and that he (and Jessica) take advantage of a safety net put in place by the Bene Gesserit - The Missionaria Protectiva - in order to live among the Fremen and take back power for the Atreides on Arakis.

I think one of the big themes in Dune, and a major reason the Fremen culture resembles Arab culture, is the idea that one who can destroy a thing is one who owns a thing. If the spice is an allegory for petroleum, then the Fremen are the Saudis and Arabs who control the vast petroleum reserves of the Middle East. Frank Herbert looked at the historical story of Lawrence of Arabia, saw a parallel with the Middle East of the 1960s and what was happening with the US and western interference in the Arab world, and saw the Oil Crisis of the 1970s coming. References to Islam in Dune are more cultural detritus than actual belief on the part of the Fremen, having descended from Earth's Arabs thousands of years before.

Also, what I got from the book was that if Paul wanted to evade the yihad, it would happen anyway. Like his timevision told him that he didnt had a choice.

I think you missunderstood Paul's character. At first, him and his mother used the myth in order to survive. Later on, when Paul got his powers and saw what would become of his actions, he saw himself in a path with no turning back and he suffered with his visions. Therefore, he chose the best way he could for the galaxy as multiple futures were presented to him. The point of Frank Herberts narrative was that the story of charismatic leaders and can be used to manipulate people in a away that even those leaders can't stop.

I think it's a folly to view dune outside of the first couple book's context. The sequels especially drive home the message.

Micheal straight up choosing violence by no longer signing off with "peace"

This is the best video I've seen in awhile! It doesn't really apply to 2021 Dune part one, though, because that movie doesn't get far enough into the story. This video will certainly apply to part 2.

I’ve been waiting for wisecrack fine for years

Thug Notes has forever enriched Dune for me in that now I read Paul's house as ATREIDEEZ NUTZ

Well done analysis. I view Dune not only as a warning against heroes and messiahs, but as a rebuttal to those who believe they can impose some type of ultimate order upon the universe. Notice how the ones who fall the hardest in the series are those who tend to overreach.

Great video and analysis. The Children of Dune miniseries focused deeply on the themes you mentioned. I hope that someday they are revisited in IMAX... It'll take a generational commitment by WB, though.

With the new movie coming out the interweb is full of hot takes and weird takes of people who didn't seem to even hit close to the messages of the books. Glad to see Wisecrack not only pinpoint some accurate interpretations but also be open to discussion on them. Thank you for the content.

To me, 'God Emperor' feels like it's worth to be a movie. As sexualized as it was, it is my favorite in the series. And every time I saw desert scenes in the movie, I picture Leto II squirming himself his gigantic worm-self across the sand.

I liked the new movie and i really hope with its sequel it is bold enough to go against these tropes and not frame Paul completely one sided as a typical messianic hero and accurately portray Herbert's intentions as discussed in this video. Maybe at least be ambiguous about it, but I listened to the audiobook and I myself got the impression pretty early on that deconstructing heroism was the exact intent. It's like an old story but it really surprised me in that regard. In the '84 movie that subtext was not there, maybe it couldn't be. But now's the time and I am so there for it because this and the ecology theme are all-time important topics.

Herbert was skeptical of political and religious leadership, that is clear in the novels. What is not clear at all in the series is what is a better alternative. Hence, the book is not really prophetic.

"So seal up those Stillsuits and get ready for a deep dive into Dune." Bold of you to assume my Stillsuit is not sealed at all times, off-worlder. Anything else would be pathetic water discipline.

I feel that analyzing and dissecting Dune as just 1 book and not a series is like judging a movie by a 10 second preview or a person by just exchanging a few words with them.

I just watched Dune last night and I have to agree; at first I thought it was the same savoir myth, but Paul knows he's being used to be a savoir figure. And then, when he's desperate, he uses the myth for his own good, even having seen the visions of the war that will be fought in his name. It's incredibly unique and compelling, and I'm surprised with how old and popular the book is this trope hasn't been used much. (just lots of reluctant heros who still end up heros)

Paul saw the golden path and justified all the bloodshed in his name to get there. It was only when he rejected it for love that he became cold and calculating. He was trapped by his own earlier decisions. His son the god-emperor made the sacrifice turning himself into a sandworm to breed humans that could not be seen by future sight.

DUNE means that drug addition is the key to interstellar space flight :)

Holy shit i just realized Paul Atriedes is Napoleon.

i always cut paul some slack with respect to his walking straight into the role of "messiah at the head of the rampaging jihad." i had the impression he went that way because every other option he had was even worse.

Just watched the 2021 film and it was amazing I just hope it continues strong in pt II

I Kind of wish you had used clips from the Scifi mini series instead of the 80's movie....

You guys should start publishing wisecrack books, I've been reading the *blackwell philosophy and popular culture* series and I'm enjoying It a lot, the world needs a wisecrack popular culture and philosophy book series.

I feel like you are somewhat under stating the degree to which Paul is actually a personally tragic character It’s not simply that Paul refused to stop the jihad, it’s that by the time he realized what was going to happen there were was virtually no way back It’s not just that Paul used the myth to gain power it’s that in the end the myth shackled him as much as it shackled those around him. In the end there was only the option of death or to surrender to the myth he started before he understood what it meant. I think a full discussion of dunes use of myth also requires a dissection of the fremens religious fanaticism which is ultimately the cause for the jihad in the books, where Paul does not order it, it simply begins

Thank you. Dune is very influential and that’s great I’m happy for it. But I think it was very clear that it is very Barsoom-y. Chani being the Dejah Thoris and Paul being John Carter.

Low-key mind control, not to be confused with Loki mind control

"All charismatic leaders should come with a warning; may be hazardous to your health." - Frank Herbert.

I’ve not read the book, but I’ve seen it and it’s thick. By the sounds of it, it should be a show not a movie.

"While the Emperor has the most power in the galaxy...." Does he though?

Sincerely thak you for not saying that Paul has a White Savior Complex but instead discussing the nuances of his internal struggles with what the world of Arrakis and the Bene Gesserit(?) breading had thrown at him. I've only read the original series once but I could definitely tell that beyond just the multitude of themes, each read through is bound to provide deeper connections to the layering of the plot. Probably watching the new one will get me to reread at least the original book. Frank Herbert was a master at the pen!

I take mild exception to the snipe at Foundation for making Harry Seldon an exceptional protagonist who does it all himself. Harry Seldon barely features in the series at all. The whole point of the series is how a smart guy can come up with really smart things but even really smart people can't predict everything and relying on his word like a literal deus ex machina nearly gets everybody killed. His fallibility *is the entire point of the plot.*

I read something someone wrote that Paul the only futures Paul saw, ie every future he saw ended with the extinction of humanity. He couldn't walk the "golden path" because he had an identity he was so attached to, doing so meant sacrificing things he was unwilling to sacrifice. But because he could see all futures he could also see that his son Leto II would end up walking the golden path anyways, saving humanity through a multitude of ways that included enslaving them for millennium and making the yearn for freedom, merging with a sand worm and introducing human DNA to it so it could be planted on other planets, thus removing the bottleneck of Arrakis for spice, and making a new breeding program that instilled the honor of house Atreides and the foresight of the bene gesserit - or something like that. I can't remember exactly what they wrote. But they described it as Paul took the least horrible path considering what he was unwilling to sacrifice, but it didn't really matter since he knew his son would eventually take up that role. I've never had the opportunity to read the books myself. Seen both films. Just happened to see the first book at Hannaford just yesterday so I picked it up to start reading the series. I'm just excited to learn what it's all about!

I was just talking about Dune with one of my English students today and we were discussing how a lot of people misinterpret Paul as a protagonist. It’s interesting how many articles I have read that the author blatantly didn’t read the book by claiming Paul is a white savior. The layers this book and series has is so deep that it’s hard to break down everything against the oversimplification of Dune.

Shout-out for mentioning Lensman!

I love how dune makes us think about our power structures and why they are the way they are

Where is that musical scene from, the one that quotes “we tell ourselves stories in order to live??”

I really want to see a video about Sanderson's Stormlight Saga.

"Too few individuals and a people reverts to a mob." -Stilgar

I've only read the first half of Dune, but the first thing that struck me was how much other sci-fi has built off of it (*cough* Star Wars). As for Paul, it was interesting to see him grapple with his seer abilities. He could see nearly all futures but eventually realized they were always changing -- nothing was completely certain. Also, joining the Fremen was more about survival than rulership. I haven't read the second half yet, so I'm sure things start to take a new direction.

I think Dune very much is a critique of the times, especially from the perspective of the later books which get rather complicated and introspective. I hope someone gets to covering these later books like this from the same perspective as you. It's deeply philosophical with some interesting conclusions.

I had no single idea of Dune film nor the book but oh my i watched it On IMAX yesterday. And it was phenomenal. It’s epic and visually stunning of a half complete story. Once again Denis Villeneuve and Warner Bros present an amazing film. It’s my best film of 2021 so far. Can’t wait for second installment and yeah WB have basically confirmed the second part.

I was hoping someone would touch on the purpose of the Princess irulan epigraphs in the book. I thought at first it was a way to humanize Paul but now I am thinking it has to do more with the themes touched on in this video.

Good video; although, I would add that Paul also has deeply personal motives for striking back at the Emperor and House Harkonnen.

Nice video production guys. Any idea what's the music title for the beat from 2:00 to 5:00?

_The Iron Dream_ is a 1972 satirical novel criticizing the fascism inherent in a lot of classic sci fi (Heinlein, Burroughs, Niven, etc). 1972, so far back we were already questioning how traditional science fiction is fascist, keep that in mind when you consider older works

CGI is gonna be so much better but I doubt the new one will be as weird as the 1984 dune :(

Herbert pretty much stated in an interview that the story was a cautionary tale about "Chosen ones"

A Honduran reference in Wisecrack, someone wake me up from this dream.

I believe it's very important to talk about your point that Paul didn't try to stop the Jihad. The book clearly states that by the time he gained full prescience, it was far too late. The best he could do was mitigate the damage, but there was no route, whether he lived or died, that stopped galactic genocide. Then his son took the concept and... ran with it, to put it nicely.

When I was 17 having read Frank Herbert's Dune and saw David Lynch's Dune I ate of the "power". Growing up, rereading the book and having just seen Denis' Dune, you realize "power's" pitfall and corrosion.

You nailed man that is DUNE, I hope the director Denis Vilenueve will be able to close Paul's Ark like it was intended to be, strip the Myth and showcasing the Man.