DungeonCraft #26: Money & Treasure 

This is pure genius. I feel like I’m reading a treasure chest every time I listen to one of your lectures.

"Why does a bugbear need silver?" Hhmmm, that gives me an idea. *DM brain activates* On your way to town, you pass a merchant cart. The owner, looking shaken and confused but unharmed, says he was robbed by goblins and they only took his silver pieces leaving the gold and copper. In town you discover the local bank was robbed. Again, only silver pieces were taken. Following the tracks/clues, you discover a tribe of treetop dwelling goblins who are attacked monthly by werewolves. They've stolen the silver pieces and are attempting to melt them down and coat their weapons. Will you help them defeat the werewolves? Will you kill the goblins and take the silver back? What do you do?

Historically, the $1 US gold coin (minted from 1849 - 1889) contained a bit more than 1.6g of gold (around 280/lb avoirdupois). The silver dime (90% silver) massed 2.5g. A one ounce coin is both huge and historically quite unlikely to be seen anywhere, much less in the horde of a random monster. Since we're doing the whole economics thing. NB: Never try to do econ in a D&D game. Down that road lies pain and sorrow and the end is a bog of infinite depth. 8-)

An object might be worth more than the weight of the materials it's made of depending on the craftsmanship or the cultural significance. Granted, if we're going on a medieval setting, labor was relatively cheap, but making that cup is going to take more work than making an ingot. The moneylender may not care about more than the weight of it, but that's where knowing people an negotiating come in. You might have to find the right trader or buyer to sell it closer to its value. I like the idea of a general per diem, but not necessitating it ramping up proportional to level or Wisdom saves to spend less. It takes a bit of agency away from the players. I'd rather give players an inspiration point or a "rested" status that lets them ignore a level of exhaustion they would otherwise suffer (like a negative exhaustion level), or shorten the time it takes for a short rest (30 minutes instead of an hour). At higher levels it costs more to get your rested status. And maybe you can even stockpile them (up to half your level rounded up).

As an accountant I like the bean counting part of D&D lol.

I've just done my first ever proper DnD style game with my kids. I gave them D3+1 gold each and 5D6 silver each (10 silver = 1 Gold) and treated money like you have here. They earn the money or they find it on the body of someone. Random creatures just wouldn't have it unless its situational like the body of an adventurer eaten by giant spiders that's found in the webbing. The spiders don't have the money themselves but its trapped in their web. 100% what you say. They painted their minis and the youngest kept bringing in his dinosaurs too which were easily enough incorporated into the game. They're near begging me for another game now, my head's a shed! Hardest part is keeping them in-line with playing the game, they all get excited and talk over each other. Better that though than trying to get them into it I think. Thanks for the vids!!

I've always considered that most treasure found in dungeons are from previous adventurers who died there, and some monsters just like collecting shiny things. Or maybe it's just the ingrained greed of evil creatures. I like the idea of paying for your monthly expenses. Specially because my players noticed how all the gold they get is kinda useless once you get decent equipment. I'm thinking about using the "pay to level up" system from Ad&d, in which you need (current level) x1 week of training and (current level) x1000 gold pieces to pay for all expenses required for leveling up.

Future generations when they watch this video and get to the anecdote around 6:30: "Getting older means getting more money? This guy's off his rocker."

I'd like to echo the sentiments of some other posters, and add a few of my own. Others have pointed out: 1. Coins weigh 1/3 oz. (50=lb.) PHB 5e 2. Objects are valued above materials cost due to craftsmanship (unless being sold for scrap or "pawned"). If a spider has coins (or any loot) because it killed a person, then why is Klarg any different? The example used has context of raiding passing human travelers, and taking them prisoner along with all their stuff. There's a merchant in that adventure that wants his goods back. Would Klarg discard shiny coins because he can't shop in town? They might be made into a necklace for a female bugbear, or just left lying around unused. The goblins eat the people and foodstuffs, re-purpose their armor and weapons (if any), adorn their lairs with anything they fancy, and the rest just gets pushed into a "trash" (treasure) pile. Treasure used to give XP, so it had a crucial role in gaining levels. Now, it still represents a potential character motivation and a way to upgrade equipment and pay for services. Clerics and Paladins (and any other devout characters) should also tithe 10% of their wealth to the Church. Taxes from the local Lord can take the form of a one time levy of any amount, or a license to adventure, or even a adventuring company charter. Guilds may regulate adventuring, and have dues. Nobles were constantly going to war with one another, so they were in constant need of coinage to pay soldiers/mercenaries. The characters may be invited to loan their wealth to the King to finance his war efforts in return for repayment (if he wins) later without interest, to gain his political favor (granted land/titles).

Love the idea of Conan going to the market to buy torches.

I had a DM 30+ years ago who used a similar system to handle expenses. He simply charged 50gp per level per month and simply called it "Upkeep". That was for "middle class" expenses. We had a player who decided to live in a tent instead of at inns and so his Upkeep cost him more like 25gp per month. One of the player characters, who was the highest level cleric in the region, became the defacto "bishop" of the area and therefore he was able to live in upper class Upkeep while still paying for middle class expenses. Instead of paying 100gp per month living in the upper class, he only spent 50gp per month. The DM made it worth the player's while if they took on certain responsibilities. This incentivized the PC to start work on building a new church for the town. As players, I remember hating the system at the time, but I came to realize that it was really awesome. It incentivized us to use our time wisely and make better choices. The problem was that we were young and stupid and were only interested in killing things and taking their stuff. The DM also tried to make sense out of monsters and treasure. For instance, we once killed a hydra and for a laugh pushed the carcass off a cliff. Then we realized that the treasure was inside the hydra... Man, we were angry with him and ourselves for being so dumb. I think that the game should run on the silver standard however and that coins were much smaller in real life. I think dime sized coins should be the standard with maybe quarter sized coins for rare "doubloons" or something like that.

3:49 - Yes, clipping and shaving the money existed, but not at nearly the rate you think it did. That's because such practices of devaluing the money constituted counterfeiting, and was always-- _always--_ punished by death! The death penalty for shaving money only stopped once devalued currency was easily detectable, when silver and gold coins were given the rough "coined edge" we know today. (That's right, kiddies, U.S. coins used to be made of _real_ precious metal!) Also, a standard "gold piece," such as a ducat or florin, weighed just over a tenth of an ounce.

Respect. This is the best video on treasure/gold that I have ever seen! I need to rewatch this several times to ingest the weight of this gold star video.

A ceremonial gold chalice could easily be worth more than its bullion value. Also, in D&D, 50 gold pieces weigh one pound, which is 1/3 of an ounce (9 grams) each, which is historically accurate for the early English noble.

In my world our adventurers are part of a larger organisation. Everything goes back to the company and the adventurers get rewards for milestones or length of service. They also never find a magic item just laying around and if they ever did it would be property of the organisation. They might get a item or other reward per tier of play.

Great video, the cup by weight may indeed be worth 16GP, however, the value add of craftsmanship or rarity would explain the greater value. Faberge eggs my have USD 10000.00 worth of materials, but rarity, artisanship, and beauty can raise the price to tens of millions of dollars. Also in the medieval world, money was not what mattered, it was land. Money was nice, but land was better,; you can never run out of land, it pays continual rents, whereas money can get stolen, lose value, or be spent.

Personally I always try to factor in if the item even has a buyer in the local area. A 3 horse village doesn't care what that +5 Holy Avenger is worth. Even if they have a blacksmith they're not buying it. Even a large metropolitan area if there is a buyer finding "The" buyer can become a challenge in and of itself.

So on the bugbear having potions of healing, I could see him killing a merchant and taking his wares

I just discovered these videos and it's refreshing to know im not the only one running rpg economics like this.

Genius! Excellent advice! It kind of flies in the face of the original intent for gold in D&D, that is the gold converted to experience, which leveled up the players. But since I never used that rule, I like your approach much, much more.

In the campaign I played a few years ago, the DM introduced a smith NPC in one town who tried to pay us in a currency of his own minting- “SmithBux”. SmithBux were worth nothing, but my hoarder character took them anyway. The DM loved this and this led to a running gag where he would work SmithBux into the campaign here and there as little Easter eggs.

I was lucky enough in my banking career doing safe deposit boxes that one we opened has gold krugerrands and I was surprised at the weight of a single coin! I have also handled small bars of silver and again, the weight is more than you think!

I really like your last idea about rolling a D6 to determine how much time has passed between adventures. I have never thought of that before. I always used a contiguous system were I kept track of everyday. [A lot of unnecessary work after watching this video. I also like the fact that it burns through their financial resources in a realistic way, creating a way for them to want to adventure as well as not having to go on shopping trips everytime they lose an arrow or break a minor item. Thanks.

I hardly ever have a real treasure. Certain characters loot enemies and it benefits them, some get nothing. So glad again that you have similar views as I do. Always grateful for this channel! Game efficiency is the only way.

Regarding monsters with treasure, I think it's reasonable to assume the more intelligent monsters use coins as a medium of exchange when trading with other creatures or unscrupulous humans. Orcs may be chaotic evil, but they're not completely stupid. If they want quality armor & weapons they'd be willing to buy from an arms dealer or reach an accomodation of some kind. In fact, perhaps that merchant who sold cheap "used" swords & mail armor to the PCs, and hinted where gold treasure could be found in the Stone Mts, is in cahoots with the local Orc tribe . . .

The bugbear might have taken the potion from a fallen adventurer as he thought it was liquor.

King Arthur Pendragon has a great money system, but it's very abstract. Characters pay "boons" or return favors for services, and NPCs tend to flock to PCs to provide services, because all the PCs are knights, among whom generosity is a virtue. If they have coin they'll pay plenty; dickering is for commoners! If they are penniless--and knights often are--a boon might be paid to a craftsman in the form of spreading that man's acclaim at court or perhaps running some bandits off the local highway--which would be expected anyway, hence all the gracious hospitality people show knights.

"[the moneychanger] is going to have to wait around for month's until some rich guy walks in and says, "You know what? I really want a solid jade goblin idol" Ha! This rich guy is someone I'd buy a drink just to hear his story.

I always assumed the cup in phandelver was intricate and encrusted with gems and stuff

You sir, are very easy to listen too. And you're too the point. Love it.

Well thought out video, Professor! One a separate note, your painting style is very unique and interesting... really like no one else and that’s a good thing.

This brought a lot of factors that slipped my mind thanks.

I love having these information packed videos. I come back to them before certain games and they definitely improve my DMing.

I set my campaigns in Greyhawk. I did the feudal system thing in the more lawful countries. In the more wild ones where I set the Caves of Chaos, Lords, taxes and protection were less prevalent as they were just trying to survive and expand while repelling humanoids and other human invaders. I think it would be interesting for higher level characters to command armies and do more kingdom type battles old school war game style and deal with the politics of trying to create a secure kingdom/fiefdom. The high level magic user of the party, for example, could be the "Ben Franklin" of his realm, trying to sway help from a nearby kingdom to lend troops to battle some other rival nation. I think that would be a very interesting gaming experience.

I read about an abstract system for handling money in RPGs. Basically, each player keeps track of their character's level of wealth rather than the exact amount of coin they possess. Each item they can buy likewise has a price expressed as a level of wealth. The character can acquire items for which the price is lower than their wealth level without thinking about it, but if they want to buy large quantities of such items, or an item at the same wealth level as they are, then their wealth goes down by one level.

I borrowed the idea of just rolling all of the fiddly cost of living expenses into a weekly, level based rate. If the players want to roleplay it out and try to save themselves a few gold they can do that too. One counter point I do have though is about "Why do goblins and orc and bugbears have coins in the first place?" Well, why do humans put a value on shiny metals and stones? Because powerful people placed value on them, namely rulers. It is a way of showing status and power. With dragons (and their dragon-sickness) being at the top of the monster power-dynamic, you could see why lower creatures like orc chieftains would want to get their hands on gold, either to appease or emulate a more powerful monster. Thus an economy is born.

I gotta say Professor Dungeon Craft, I just finished first session as a DM ever in D&D, and your long line of videos was my main inspiration for the campaign setting. Everyone at the table was very enthused and had positive feedback, despite the fact that the setting was grim, and the characters started off much less Marvel Heroes powerful like normal d&d characters do. I had of course made it clear the campaign would be this way. Treantmonk is my go to youtuber for satisfying my player centric content, but your content has been by far the most influential in making me commit to presenting a low fantasy setting with grim and mature themes. Hats off to you, you deserve three times the subscribers you have! Respect from Denmark.

I write that stuff (in the earlier half of the vid) off as, "the bugbear likes to take shiny things from his victims" and "The chalice is more valuable than its way and gold due to the fine craftsmanship, designs, and possibly encrusted gems"

It is like listening to a man who actually went on adventures

VALUE OF SILVER 1.) Silver/ gold is weight in as 12oz per lb, and not 16oz. 50 coins divide into 12oz= 0.24oz of silver per coin. For D&D 2.) Real World Wealth a.) The USA silver dollar was base on the Spanish silver dollar. $1=1/8th of an oz of silver The British Sterling Pound is one pound of pure silver = $96 The Spanish and Portuguese set up world trade with China and Japan. And the trade value of silver in the world. For a few hundred years. i.) The English penny was made of Silver " NOT" copper. b.) In the mid to late 1700's you could buy a cow on the American East Coast for $2. i.) In the late 1880's " cowboy" movies, a cow cost $5 to $8, and cowboys only earn around $1 a week. So it cost nearly a full month's wage to buy a cow. c.) By the 1940's WWII era in the USA, Gold was $24 per oz., " nearly a months' wage," people in most non big city urban areas only earn a dollar a day. " Another day, another dollar." Anyone remember their grand parents saying this phrase ? i.) In the early 1990;s when I was a teenager silver was $20oz/ with my state mini wage, it was a days pay. Now in the late 2010's/ 2020, silver is around $40oz. and I earn close to $80 a day. And gold is close to $3,000 oz. ii.) A cow/ bull cost between $500 to $1,300 to buy, base on what state you live in. A cow Still cost around a months wage. d.) I do not know off hand what gold values were for the pass two or three hundred years. Gold coins was rare to trade with. Gold was keep as small bars and kept in Merchant Trading House/ back by silver. All major sells was written on paper and Stamped by the MTH for shipping. Europe has been doing this form of business dealing since the founding of the Knights Templar. c.) 3.5e D&D they have a skill called ( profession: any) you earn have your skill check roll each week = to gp value. And you can take 10 on d20 for it. So on average npc earn around 7 to 8gp per week. i.) All non noble characters start play with 2ranks(profession: farmer) since 60% of per 1890's societies were farmers. Also to note in Europe, towns and cities shut down all business to help with spring planting and fall harvest. ii.) All start fighter class characters was part of the village/ towns' militia. So they have at lest one rank(profession:soldier) to show military tactics training and a second income to but their starting equipment with. Have a good weekend and I hope this helps out some of you to have a better game.

I always do a monthly cost and I don't count ammo unless it's a survival adventure/deep dungeon dive. I'm going to use your ideas to add more flavor to my monthly charges!! Fantastic vid, thank you.

This reminds me, that I've never seen a good system for working 'housekeeping' into the fun and experience of being an Adventurer.

Not to nitpick too much about your example of Klarg from Lost Mines, but it's actually very easy to come up with an explanation of why he might have the silver and why he might be holding on to it: a) He's been killing and robbing travelers on this road for some time, and probably other roads as well so he probably has looted a bunch of stuff (the module basically tell you that it is so based on the contents of Klarg's cave and their origin) b) He might've been paid for his services in silver by the Black Spider or someone working for the Black Spider, and they are likely to use coins for this purpose. Again, we are told this in the module. c) There are several bugbears in the Redbrand hideout in town and clearly bugbears have some dealings with admittedly the more nefarious and criminal human elements, so the bugbears might understand the value of silver. Not too difficult to imagine. d) Klarg might be interested in dealing with human weapon smugglers to get better weapons and armor and holds on to the silver for such an occasion. This one is more of a conjecture but it's not so far-fetched since real-world examples support this. Contact on the frontier was often done for the purpose of trading more advanced weapons for something else of value.

I wouldn't agree that "comfortable lodging" and "good meals" wouldnscale with level; I would think that you move from one expense level to another, like "modest" to "comfortable" to "luxurious." But that quibble aside, you had a lot of good ideas in here. The idea of making a check to reduce expenses is great.

A monster kills a party of adventurers, time passes, bodies rot then turn to dust. The adventurers gold and magic items still litter the floor to be found by future adventurers.

In my homebrew campaign I decided to go for a certain realism. Silver is the most common means of exchange (other than barter). Silver pennies are the most common coin; 12 pennies to a shilling (a 0.8oz silver coin), 20 shillings make a pound. (I didn't call them pennies and shillings as it isn't set in England; just "bits" and "pieces".) Gold is far less common and far more valuable. Gems and jewelry are used as a store of larger amounts of wealth. I used medieval price and wage data to determine cost-of-living expenses... 6 shillings a month is a fairly decent lifestyle. Monster-slaying is less profitable in itself, but bounties are offered for troublesome critters. All that wasn't necessary really, as it is after all just a game, but I enjoyed it as I like things to make sense...

I feel like if I had all these upkeep costs, I'd start questing for my own keep.

We had to rework 3.5 goods table because the cost/time of making many of the items surpassed the sales cost

I'm running LMoP currently. Klaarg the bugbear has money and potions because his band of goblins has been attacking nearby travelers and raiding them for supplies, some of which are then sent up to Cragmaw Castle and some of which are kept for themselves. Klaarg probably went through the supplies and picked out the most valuable objects. A cave boss is going to find use for some healing potions for sure. And it's not unreasonable to assume that goblins use human money when they can get their hands on it. As for the chalice, when was the last time you paid for something based purely on the cost of materials alone? If you've ever done such a thing, it was probably made by a friend who was cutting you a deal. The chalice is inherently worth more than its weight in gold, because of the labor and skill it took to make it. If it's finely crafted, and took a lot of skill to make, it'll be worth even more. And if it's decorated in jewels and other such things, it'll be worth more still.

For the golden goblet. The price of 150 gp’s is the value the player can get for it, not it’s top market value. The weight is 10 coins, but it’s worth is greater because of the craftsmanship. In medieval times it took a lot of labor to make an object. A well crafted sword might take a smith a full year to make. Hence the higher value than a bar of steel.

Love this. I also do monthly income/expenses budget. Food for riding animals, storage fees if they have treasures stored somewhere. For higher level/richer characters I often have them pay NPCs a salary. For treasure, I often make players pick their favorite 50 pounds of loot and say that is the most that can be transported by dog sled or dragged by a horse without leaving behind their food. So if there is 200lbs they can try to bury it somewhere and come back for it, but mostly I find this helps narrow down what they really want to bring and discard the rest. Because even if they make four trips, what will they even do with 200lbs of treasure? And if they do make four trips there can be bandits, or maybe someone else figures out what they are doing, follows them, and the cache is empty the third trip.

I think the idea of the treasure hoard harkens back to Tolkien. The trolls in The Hobbit have that stash of coin and magic swords that Thorin and company liberates. Irresistible! You can always require the PCs spend the coins in order to gain experience from treasure and therefore level up.

1:25. Later in DMing life this is why I came to better appreciate the Treasure Type stat from the og Monster Manual. Each TT represents a statistical breakdown o fthis question, i.e. TTB might be the kind of stuff a raider might pick up, TTM might represent the type of stuff a noble may have on them, etc. Once you get that logic, it makes easier for DMs to improv the 'why'. Knowing the why helps with my 2nd point: Treasure shouldn't be viewed as just money rewards for killing things, but also as excellent opportunities to work lore and, more importantly, clues organically into the adventure.

Money, every RPG tackles it differently. It can be cheap reward mech, but if abused the PCs can just buy their way out of an adventure. Mongoose's Conan had a wealth mech that stated adventures spent 10% of their wealth a week. Unless they specified a goal for their money they would lose it quickly. Conan was no bean counter and knew more gold was an adventure away. The easiest wealth mech I have used was in D20 Modern. This incorporated money on hand, credit factors, etc. With no bean counting taking away from the PCs adventuring.

This is a super useful video. while I play Dungeon World not D&D. and I love the Abstraction system for most resources. COIN or Money still tends to pile up. great advice for keeping the PC's expenses in play without adding too much book keeping.

As usual, your presentation is gold.

I just started my game and i hate money, this makes things so much easier. Thank you for your insight!

The setting I'm running goblins see gold as a trophy and a sign of power. Goblin with the most shinnies is the toughest usually. Until a bug bear comes and steals it all from them

Even if bugbears can't go into human settlements, they're not like wild animals... they're intelligent enough to have language and use tools. Which means they could also use currency. And sure, they could have a different currency than other humanoid races, but it's probably easier for them to use coins for when they trade with orcs or hobgoblins or whatever. And potions? They can get those the same way anyone else. Their shamans brew them or they find them in dungeons and what not.

1:33 Klarg has silver for the same reason he has a stockpile of equipment: because his Cragmaw goblin band stole it from passing travelers! This is why their hideout is located near the Triboar trail.

Klarg and the goblins have those items because it is clearly established that they attack people on the road. They may have taken the gold and silver because it's shiny and goblins like shiny stuff. Maybe one of the goblins knew that potions could be useful and grabbed that too. It's easy to imagine a situation where travelers on the road may be carrying healing potions.

Cantrip mending for all your maintenance needs.

Always use trade goods and livestock as dungeon rewards. It gives the players a reason to get a wagon and mules. It also forces the players to go to civilization.

Great video. Especially the end and what characters would spend their money on. Burning Wheel does the resource cycle, never thought to borrow that to DnD.

Hello Professor! I'm loving your channel and while I realize I'm late to this party, this video is spot-on and reminds me of a similar gripe: why are precious metals so under-valued in D&D? (I realize this is some hair-splitting minutiae.) Copper pieces are next to useless, and who even uses silver pieces that often? Yet pre-printed game modules from days of yore always tell you how many tens of thousands of coppers the boss monsters have. No one uses them; they're dead weight. As of the last time I checked, 1 ounce of gold in 2021 was valued at around $2,200/ounce (per 5e, one coin is about 1/3 ounce I think). Yet D&D treats gold coins as if they're, say, "one dollar", or the standard individual unit of currency for everything. In what sane world are you paying an ounce or two of solid gold for a pair of boots, or a week's stay in some cheap inn? Again, this may be nit-picky, but I revised my price lists and my game's economy so that metal coins are worth something more realistic via their weight in actual precious metals (making coin-clipping truly a "thing", come to think of it), then adjusted the economy itself so that a "dollar" is worth more. For instance, a "dollar" used to buy you a whole lot more 100 years ago than it does now, and an ounce of copper is worth roughly 9 cents which had actual trading value a long time ago. I know it sounds like unneeded detail, but my PCs now see actual gold treasure as a breathtaking find, and can spend actual copper & silver pieces more realistically.

"Hey Cleric you and pally hade alot of gold over right?" "Yeeaaaaaah... We kinda gave all of that to the old poor woman in that last village."

Awesome vid. Really got me brainstorming ways to streamline money as a DM.

This is an excellent take on money in D &. D.

Dungeon Craft: You absolutely crack me up! You do make alot of great points though.

I really like your series. I had some similar thoughts. In my fantasy world I ended up making the dominant coinage silver - 1/4 oz coins (like a quarter sized), so 4 coins to an ounce and 64 coins per pound. Then when I gave out treasure it was something like 2lbs of silver. I left it up to players to figure out coin worth. Gold was 16x silver, so 1 lbs silver = 1 oz gold. Instead of having items cost number of coins, they cost weight in silver. Sword might be 6lbs of silver or 6oz gold. I also made gold rare and status. If someone in the group paid for food and lodgings with gold, they were throwing a message.

Great video, Professor!

When did you start calling your characters heroes? Also: money has this lovely value to monsters where it symbolizes the number of PCs you've killed, and their relative value. But I agree with your toenails statement for the potion of healing. Maybe it's a grimy, gumbo-like stew made with red moss

Been prepping to do LotFP "west marches" for the group and I haven't come up with a good solution for this yet. By default xp comes from treasure found, so all BX and other old school adventures have huge hordes of treasure depending on encounter difficulties. The system has good ways to burn money, so players having money isn't an issue as much as limiting adventure opportunities and encouraging fixation on money and amounts of money available. The group won't care, but it's hard to let go as the verisimilitude devil grumbles into my ear.

I agree with most of what was said here. After the first couple of levels I usually give them a weekly charge to cover expenses. I have designed many scenarios and quests and I usually design the treasure and Bad guy first and then fill in the rest. My villain's and monsters use their magical items at the party. My only disagreement is on size of coinage. I have always had my coins be the size dimes or nickels. How many of those can you carry at once? Also the gold cup has value in its creation. I am a carpenter and woodworker by trade and I can take a hunk of firewood and turn it on a lathe and make a vase and it 2000% more than when it started. Also if you have a thriving underdark community that bugbear may have reason to carry around silver coins. But if they traded in clam shells that could be interesting as well.

I appreciate your videos and the thought put into them. I have found that it depends on what kind of story the group is telling. We do mostly high adventure, so unless the PCs are trying to buy something very spendy, they always have the money and unless they find a noteworthy sum of coin, it isn't mentioned. In the same way, rations and ammunition aren't tracked until it's relevant to the plot. A comment regarding real life coinage. The two great gold coins in usage in medieval times were the ducat and the florin, both of which weighed 1/8th ounce...meaning 128gp/lb. Interestingly enough, a standard measure of weight in the european middle ages was the silver soldi/sou (in Britain, the shilling), which corresponds to the D&D sp. The standard measure was 72 sp per pound.

Holy crap, Wisdom checks to spend money wisely! I love it! Say, question for perhaps a future video: I, as a player, have made a lot of decisions that I thought were sensible at the time, but that the rest of the table immediately perceived to be very poor choices, and that, in retrospect, I should've known were poor choices. For a long time, it has bugged me that a character I specced to have a high Wisdom (which is almost always the case) makes such poor decisions, because of player deficits. I mean, players with low strength can play super-strong fighters, players with bum knees can play super-dexterous rogues and rangers, players with ugly faces and poor skill with words can play charismatic bards and be the Face of the party. Is it that unreasonable to request Wisdom checks to counter my own naivete? We've had some success before, when the group points out that our players may not have realized a thing but the characters who live in the world surely would have known that, but I'd like that if I declare an action/decision that seems reasonable to me but that most of the other players immediately react negatively to (as "oh great, she's doing something stupid again" kinda thing), that my character would get a Wisdom save to give me a chance to choose better. (This isn't an example of what I mean, but one time we were trying to hunt down a poison -- and we all knew it was a poison! -- and my character got there first. And I said, meaning it as a joke, "I drink it!" The GM and the rest of the party would not let me take that back, even though I explained that it was a joke. We played out the idiocy of my character drinking poison (she survived). They said it was perfectly in keeping with some other random weirdness that my characters have done, but I disagree; my character knew it was poison and thus dangerous, and my characters do not typically do self-harmful things on purpose.) An actual example of what I mean: My rogue snuck into a cultist meeting to try to distract them so the rest of the group could do something. I thought it would be a great distraction to set their robes on fire. They immediately caught me. (This ended with me being devoured by the god they were trying to summon, and the entire city went up in fire and destruction, with the rest of the party fleeing for their lives. I found it hilarious.) Now, clearly I, the player, had no conception that this was a stupid move that would immediately get discovered, but my character, being a rogue and living in that world, would have known better. And while that character wasn't particularly high in Wisdom (so she might've failed the save anyway), I think it's reasonable for the character to get a Wisdom save to see if she realizes that the player is being a dumbass and thus give the player a chance to better think through her actions. (Not saying that the results aren't memorable. I did once trade a holy relic to an evil statue that I didn't realize was evil even though all the details made it pretty obvious. I once walked into a random inn, tossed coins across the counter, and declared that I wouldn't be a party to the thieves' guild just because I had taken a level of Rogue. (I didn't even make sure that the inn had anything to do with the guild.) I once tried to avoid eating hallucinogenic snakes by "pickpocketing" them, and it turns out that snakes don't like to be stuffed into pockets, so I spent the rest of the encounter seeing random things and never being sure which ones were real and which were just the LSD coursing through my veins.)

WFRP has good mechanics for calculating living expenses depending on status level, which may be useful. However one hook I use is to make treasure values also dependent on the buyers interest. A pedlar isn't going to want an ancient dwarven cup but a dwarven loremaster/Smith might... "Especially if you adventures can find the matching items?" Fences will buy anything at 50%+ discount and you need to find the black market. "Get out friend released from prison and we know we can trust you..." I've also found it useful to leave previous adventurer's corpses around a dungeon (bottom of pit traps, bled out in a corridor after an arrow trap, or floating inside a giant ooze somewhere). These can also be used to plant red herrings/plot hooks such as maps, letters and diaries. Just some thoughts...

Currently my table uses the downtime system 5e provides. While the idea you've laid out simplifies things and cuts down roleplay, my group has a loy of fun rolling on the downtime tables and getting a summary description of what happened. For my group we wouldn't be calculating monthly expenses for a long while unless it existed as a separate time bubble to the in-game time. Downtime does, so it works rather well.

A silver cup can be worth 150 gp if the cup has artistic or historic value greater than its Weight in Gold. But you have to find a buyer who knows it worth this. Otherwise, yes you get the value in weight

. You are absolutely correct, the more you make the more you spend. I have done something similar in my campaigns, which included more sci-fi games such as Shadow Run. I had a base number depending on class & level & it cost that hero X g.p. per month just to maintain themselves. As a GM, I despise spells such as raise dead or resurrection ( Oh, someone murdered the king? that's o.k.! Aldorf here is a cleric, he can fix that!) but would allow them begrudgingly with a lot of restrictions on their casting AND it will cost.. A LOT! So I would find ways to have the players spend their hard-earned G.P. Great thought on the local lord wanting their "fair" share, I will have to implement that one.

Great points and ideas!

I like that upkeep system. Just having it be a simple number helps for prepping. There are several old school books and clones that go over making money in a fun way. Lamentations fo the Flame Princess talks about investing in businesses, older editions like 1e and Basic (Rules Cylopedia, BECMI) talk about creating and investing in a kingdom to make money. There's systems that go deeper into the economics of making money and kingdom building.

Only one thing to add: items can be worth way more than the material put into them. That's what artisanry gets you. The extreme level of detail and craftsmanship put into an object can be worth FAR more than it's material even for "simpler" items like a chalice. Let alone what paintings, etc can get up to.

I love it!!! I reduced the gold in my game just like you are suggesting. I never understood DnD when they would kill something and find 10,000c 12,000s 5000e....per encounter and expect to carry it all out. Gems, statues, and the like always had to go through a trader @-10% and then +/- 5% based on a negotiation roll.

Professor! I love this idea!

Agreed. My bugbear treasure consist of a necklace of ears, maybe a stone earring and some various implements of torture made of bone or wood. The goblin chief may have a chest of low value coins, along with desiccated spiders, finger bones, fish scales, tin cups, shiny rocks and other miscellaneous junk that was collected over time.

I know this is an old video but I like to listen while I work (I'm a draftsman). Amway, I had a point about the comment of the gold cup. You said if a gold cup that weighs 16oz, and since each gp is made from ~1 oz of gold, that the cup in question is worth only 16gp not the 150gp someone listed it as. But I would like to say that this cup did not grow out of the ground and someone just pick it up. It had to be crafted. Is that not part of the value of the cup? What if it had gems or other embellishments? What if it is an artifact or sorts (I don't mean magic) I mean a piece of history. Whenever I see things such as this I tend to go with the stated value unless I need to parse it down. I do however, whole heartedly agree that it does not make sense for such an item to be in the possession of goblins without some sort of back story. Otherwise I love these videos and this is not meant as criticism just my point of view. Keep up the good work.

Thank you for the ideas , i must admit just giving up on money management part of the game i think ill try out your methods

I nearly choked on my sandwich to the part about the dungeon rent for the Hobgoblin. 😂😭

The bugbear healing potions would instead be some sort of preserved food. I used that in a fight with a gnoll chieftain. He had 2 jerkies of healing that would dissolve in the mouth to heal him. My reasoning would be the shaman would be able to make that as if she had the brew potion feat. For money for the spider; the pc's would have to search for it. It might require climbing on the wall to get to a sack with the desiccated remains of a victim. I would consider the money on a bugbear would be more of a symbol of victory over a foe or from a victim. The gold chalice; for me would also have gems embedded in it. If I see that 150gp price that is what I would assume. The gold shaving gave me an idea for a quest to find the group responsible for the rash of filed down coins.

One fun way to get rid of PCs money is to make them go to a land where the currency is different. My most recent campaign was barbarian and they dealt in caribou and whale bones. The outsiders who do occasionally come to the area want a mysterious metal. Although the metal was worthless to the PCs, it is priceless in the rest of the world (although the PCs don't know that yet!) If they get to the mainland, the bones will be worthless and they will be looking for usable currency as well as kicking themselves that they didn't hold onto any of the metal!

Just been going through all your videos because your ideas are so unique. Lol you are such a savage ruining everyone’s day with your more “realistic” economy I love it 😂😂

My home-brew rules have a character stat called Class, meaning not profession as in D&D, but social station, wealth and education. Your Class starts out between 7 and 13 and can go as high as 20. Your basic weekly expenses while in town are equal to your Class.

Ideas on handing out Magic Items? (Detect magic on a PC? Oh look it's a Xmas tree!)

My problem with treasure is treasure types with lots of jewelry. Pain in the behind. - Brian

Not up to date on 5th edition but D&D used to state that all items sold are worth 50% of purchasable value. Additionally, any item, gold or otherwise, might be worth much more than "it's weight in gold" after you factor in craftsmanship or other significant factors. If the players managed to slay Draconix The Red Dragon, they can very likely slay the sheriff and his contingent. Regarding weight, mounts, remounts, and pack animals or other transportation. Every player group should have this unless there are extenuating circumstances. Cost of living is good though. Bit expensive depending on setting but yeah that's a solid ad hoc formula.

I think that item specificity, money management, and roleplay are fun. To that end I often create highly detailed economic systems that the players can either briefly touch or deeply dive into. Any time I get told I have to spend X gold to upkeep myself I hate it, it feels like a punishment. But give me an array of pretty things even if they don't give me numerical bonuses and my adventurer's wallet will be empty.

What do you think about the Conan: Adventures of a Age Undreamed of? It deals with stuff like this and seems to be in line with several of your videos (other than the hit locations and such, but the mooks don’t have that). It’s an abstract, low gold system for the most part, and at the end of the adventure there are “between adventure” events that take it.

Buying things is boring? You're playing with the wrong crew. Some of the funniest moments in my campaigns come from PCs rping their interactions with merchants - talking them down in hilarious ways, straight out swindling them with imaginative techniques etc in one of my campaigns my players entered in to an elaborate sponsorship deal with a highly-lauded armorer, which then became a touchstone for the rest of the campaign and added a whole another level of fun.

Love the discussion. With the 5e ruleset I tend to agree with DM Scotty. The juice isn't worth the squeeze with money. With the exception of a couple powerful items, like Plate Armor, there just isn't a lot of meaningful stuff to do with it (per the standard ruleset.) You generally can't buy magic items or scrolls for example. Sure, you can buy a lot of junk from Medieval Walmart - throw caltrops and ball-bearings all over the place, keep your scrolls dry, or have comfy tents. But there just isn't a lot of impact. Rules as written a character with 10,000 gold isn't really doing too much different then a character with 10 gold. Narratively it can be a much different story of course. A rich character could have access to NPCs, services, areas, etc. that a "poor" character wouldn't and on and on. Also, a DM can always come up with great ways for players to spend their money, including magic item shop, strongholds, businesses, and a million other things. For these reasons I tend to be pretty liberal with handing out cash, especially once players hit about level 5 or so. Even if I gave the players thousands of gold coins, what would they do with them? What would be so bad about it? Would it break the game? Would they suddenly become insanely powerful? No, not when following a lot of the 5e rules and guidelines. There just isn't a lot they could do with money that would have much of an impact on the game. On top of that, it's my person opinion that adventurers of about level 5 or 6 and up would probably have the day to day stuff figured out. A wizard capable of casting 3rd level spells would certainly have worked out a way to take care of mundane needs and expenses. The higher level they go the less it makes sense for these uber powerful characters to have to worry about how many torches or basic rations they have. Giving out a little extra cash also gives me a lot of opportunities to come up with cool things for the players to spend it on as well. Strongholds being a favorite. Certain settings - gritty, low fantasy, or wilderness survival type campaigns are an exception here. Money, and the mundane items it can buy, could play a big role in these types of campaigns. Character wisdom and intelligence could also play a role. Even good roleplayers will suddenly become shrewd money handlers when it comes to their gold despite running a low WIS character.