I have helped troubleshoot a few upgrades on a few dust collection systems and would like to comment. The new system you have is probably a little starved for air. By installing a at least 4' length of 8" duct directly to the intake and putting an adjustable opening in the end to supply extra air to the fan in a bypassing way, it will get the volume going through the separator up to where the centrifugal forces in the separator are enough to throw the solids out against the sides and get them to drop into the collection bin before they can get sucked into the blower. By increasing the sizes of your ducting system you could accomplish some of the same. Using an ammeter on the blower will tell you the sweet spot for the motor. Using a manometer or Magnahelic gauge on the ducting will show you the weak spots. You have a very capable machine, through tuning, the system can be brought up to a higher performance. You ARE getting way too much volume of chips in the filter, this would indicate that a lot of dust is going in there also. Very informative video, good luck on the tuning. BTW: A flexible joint in the intake pipe right before the separator will keep a lot of the mechanical noise of the machine from the ductwork and into the frame of the house and upstairs. You can get mufflers for the exhaust of the separator to quiet down that part also. When the runs are tuned and the system is balanced, the sound lessens somewhat. I hope this helps, I know this is way late and you may never even see it.
Nice video - I had the same issue when I installed my Jet with the bag filling quickly. I mounted the infeed line similar to your set up which I believe caused the issue. I moved thing around so I could get a 5 ft level run into the intake of the cyclone which improved the air / dust separation.
Hell, if I knew you were going to be doing all this testing I would have offered to let you borrow some of my stuff lol I've got all kinds of toys for testing flow and pressure, including an anemometer for airflow (like you bought), manometer (for pressure), and decibel meter. Thanks for all the testing and comparisons of the two machines Matt. I know how much effort goes into that sort of thing
And quite the improvement it is. It's interesting to hear the difference in tone between the two, even if the sound level is similar. A spectrum analysis would be interesting for numbers/stats/data nerds like me, but it's pretty clear that the new cyclone would be much heavier towards the upper end. More like a shop vac in comparison. You're making me think harder about a dust collector now, as I currently just have a shop vac with cyclone, and that's not sufficient for most free standing power tools. Having the cyclone is nice though, much nicer than dealing with the filter constantly.
Hey Matt... great video, was surprised at how dirty the powermatic filter was... I have the Laguna 2 hp unit which I bought 2 years ago.. that also gets chips in the filter bag... good luck with the unit, looks like a great improvement over what you had...
have been watching you for sometime now, and it is a feel good show. you are honest and a excellent family man. always look for your new videos. keep up the great content. Thanks, in more ways always.
Tip for you, by transitioning from your 6” to 8” right as the air enters the cyclone, you are slowing the air flow and therefore decreasing the effect from the cyclone. I had the same issue with mine and actually had much better results by running the pipe from the main system pretty far inside the fitting to the cyclone and just taping around it to seal it up.. kind of creating a nozzle shooting the air into the cyclone at a higher speed.... if that makes sense.
It does make sense. It also is a similar idea to Bill Pentz's neutral vane that he states is the easiest and most affective mod you can make to a cyclone.
....I feel kind of awkward seeing silicon put in the negative air-pressured area..... I have not seen the outside of the box/assembly. Me, I would have dissemble and silicon everything re-assembling. A simpler way, as effective too, would be taping any outside joint. ;) But your whole venture seems successful though :D
Great upgrade. I love your videos. However, due to to the direction of air flow, 6” to 8” is not reduction, it is expansion. I understand Symantec reasoning. Forgive me. I appreciate your following of the scientific method. Have a great holiday! Post. Script. ‘Wind Speed Thingy” = Anemometer.
That was an excellent explanation, Matt. I'm going to stick with my shop vacs for now...heck they were a big step up from nothing, which I used most of my life :>).
I'm curious about the laguna dust collector as far as how well you liked it? I did notice that when you moved to a different shop you got a different one
what're you doing with the PM? Can I have it? I don't have power tools or a work shop or nothin but I have loan sharks to pay off and seven fingers left I desperately want to keep ....
It's just startling to see how much more complex and "DIY" these systems are compared to a quality vacuum chambered dust collection system. I have a Felder RL 160, it came in a box, unpacked the box and rolled it in the shop ... ready ! Less then 1 minute. No coalcking, no screwing, no nothing. Plug and play. I can put the hose in a dustbin and it sucks it empty in seconds. No canisters, no filters, no nothing. I would never ever go back to regular dust collection. Felder really is great in that regard.
I have a older Clearview It's 10 years old. I have never cleaned the filters. I have a pan at the bottom of the filter. I don't get dust in them. A true cyclone get much better separation.
If you are getting a lot of chips in the filter him there might be an air leak between the emptying container and the cyclone.. My cyclone initially had the same issue.
Matt, I too purchased a 3 hp dust collector I've got a 1.5 hp delta that sits in a shed just outside my shop. The delta is 120 volts the new one is 220, Got some wiring to do also adding 6 inch ducting. Had 4 inch flex which really cut down the vacuum pressure . Had built a barrel type thein chip collector that was pretty good at the beginning. My bags were pretty clear. What I failed to realize is how clogged my bags were getting. Had a similar dust removal issue that you and your dad delt with. I'm in the middle of thinking about a top hat which is time and material which is mostly on hand or a 6 inch dust deputy cyclone. Bought a wind meter that actually has cfm in the mix. Thanks for sharing the thoughts and process! :
That is a lot of chips/dust getting to the filter. I haven't seen that much making it to the filter on my Clearvue in 15 years. But your still ahead with what you have now over what you were using. Those single stage collectors are junk. Spend more time cleaning than using.
Great video and analysis. I'm currently planning out my system and this was helpful. I've been debating over a 3hp or full size 5hp and since I have the space it sounds like 5hp is the way to go, although either would be an improvement over the 1.5hp I have now. Thanks for taking the time to test the old system first. This gives me a better idea of where I'm at now.
I really appreciated your honesty regarding the quality of separation. This is definitely an upgrade over what you have and given your space limitations was no doubt the best option. The problem with these 'compact' cyclones is that their separation is poor, as you witnessed by the volume of dust/chips making it to your filter. Because the separation is poor and filter clogging is a problem manufacturers have to outfit their collectors with agitators. If the pleats are really tight on a filter the agitators don't work well so they have to widen the pleat spacing which translates to reduced surface area and reduced air flow. According to Pentz you want 4:1 ratio of CFM to filter surface area for a Merv15 filter. The Laguna filters are only 109 sq ft., not enough, but they had to do it because of clogging from poor separation of fines. I definitely agree with you regarding full size collectors. If you have the space for it, get a ClearVue or make your own. This design is about as good as it gets. I have a PSI Tempest 15" impeller 3.5HP, which Bill Pentz advised on the re-design. It's similar to the Clear Vue in a lot of ways but lacks the downward pointing "air ramp" which helps a lot in basically shooting material down into the bin. I like it but will likely build a proper cyclone when I can find the time.
obvious installer error (leaks ,poor ducting, no make up air) .my shop is climate controlled. D/C is in sound proof box outside my choice. No noise pollution No air pollution . i clean my filter monthly. My A/C filter not yet. and according to my Dylos air quality meter The air in my shop is five times cleaner than outside i'm a cabinet maker..... and i dont vacuum or clean my computer screen ever BEST SYSTEM EVER maybe look at your install... GO clear vue MAKE AMERICAS AIR GREAT AGAIN
I have a great deal of experience with cyclone type dust collection systems. You have pretty much maxed out the options for dust collection size with the collector inside the shop space which is fine. A outside collector has it's advantages and disadvantages as with any equipment. For me the real issue is the most effective and efficient use of the collector pipe and use of blast gates and of course the pipes sealed well. The use of sweeps versus elbow style turns and running the largest pipe for as long as it can be run all makes a difference. Setting up the duct pipes can be as important as the dust collector system itself. You are right at the cusp of putting a dust collector system outdoors but unless your location is right your option is what works for you and besides you do not have to build a shelter over the collector to keep the weather out. I always love your content and keep on doing what you do so well!
There are a tremendous amount of things I have little or no experience with. Woodworking is something I have a natural hunger to learn and know as much about as I possibly can, it is a comfortable wheelhouse with me.
Interesting. My understanding is that HVAC pipe was not sturdy enough for a 500+ CFM dust collector. The understanding is it would collapse if one of the inlets were fully or partially blocked. What are others experience with HVAC pipe?
Matt so the short of it is if you have the room go with a full size cyclone for better Results!!!!!! Thank gosh i didnt buy that Exact model on blackfriday weekend like i was going to
If it helps at all for your comparison, I have a CVMAX and it has a much smaller container and the end of the filter stack than the bag on your Laguna. Also a much taller cyclone, obviously. I think i have emptied my 55 gallon drum about a dozen times over the last year, and I've only vacuumed out the little filter drop-out container once. I usually bang on the filters to loosen that stuff up when I empty the drum, and very little falls out. It's possible my filters are super clogged, but I've not noticed any reduction in airflow. I also haven't measured... not very scientific, I know. My setup Just Works (tm) so I'm good with not knowing my data. I do appreciate the level of detail you've gone into on this video, though. I wish more people in the woodworking world paid this much attention to dust collection. Great video, sir.
The reason you don't see much dust/chips at your filter is because the Clearvue is a great design. I haven't seen a coffee cups worth of dust out of my filters on my CV1800 in 15 years. Cleaning filters isn't even on my mind. Might knock around on them once every few years. Take a look under them and might see a tablespoon of dust.
Dust deputy is 99.1 % free of stuff going to the collector. I have been running both of my dust deputy's for 3 months over 15 gallons of fine bandsaw dust and NO dust is in the filters or in the smaller shop vac with the smaller dust deputy. Like new inside both of them. Check for a leak in your separator compartment that you empty. Dust Deputy says in their manual that is what causes dust to get to the filter. Both of mine or sealed and there is no dust or chips at all going to the dust collector or the shop vac. By the way. I enjoy your videos. Hard work and a good sense of humor and adventure. Outstanding!
Hey Matt, Love the Video, Re the Cyclone and efficiency. Talk to the manufacturer about minimum air flow through the cyclone to produce max efficiency. You may need more air flowing through to properly separate the chips and dust. Something worth trying is to false load (Open other blast gates) to increase flow into the cyclone, maybe on the longest run and not so much to dip the pressure to the tool you are using. Also Try to minimise the lengths of Flexi as these are where the pressure drop is greatest. Good luck..
So interestingly, in the video when I moved from using the jointer to the planer, I forgot to close the blast gate on the jointer. I did end up closing it when the camera angle changed and you can see the collector with the debris that got into the bag.
Hey Matt, two other points to consider. I looked at Laguna's assembly video and at7:50 ish he talks about the angle of the connector. Has says 30 deg one way and up to 60 deg the other way although he states 30 deg he demonstrates 60 deg. You seem to have yours mounted 60 deg to the Left looking from the front as he calls it and maybe this is degrading the performance to some degree .the Other point is about the Level in the Bin versus separation efficiency. Did you note any fall off in performance as the bin got up or over 70% full?
Only thing I see that give a lot of chips is that 20" planer.If that Powermatic can't keep up to that it's your system design that's the culprit. Which looking at the system one can see why it's having problems.WTF would one run I'm guessing it's 6" about everywhere (it looks like 8" compared to your arms though...lol)?You're losing "pressure" right there.Those Pm DC's come with a duel 4" port but you don't always have something open on both at the same time,especially not a planer and say a 12" jointer if you know wth you're doing. Keeping with the 4" would have given the system in that garage shop more "pressure" to pull all those chips in faster. If you or anyone wants to say it won't or can't? I'll call BS as I use a measly lil Rigid 14 gal vac that pulls 168cfm with a 2.5 hose on our planer as it's out of the way of most the other shop equipment.We dump the 30 gal barrel 1-2x a day and it keeps up to it just fine.There is no other excuse to your Powermatic not being able to keep up to anything in that shop if it would have been set up right to start with.
I got the laguna 1.5hp pflux unit and agree with your build comments. I had to use both the youtube videos as well as the instructions to put it together. I also noticed on mine the same as you did, when just starting to fill the bin, chips and dust went into the collection bin below the filter, but then once some was in the bin below the cyclone, it stopped. What was your reasoning to get that 3hp cflux vs the pflux? In any case, Good video. :)
Im pretty sure you will pass a fraction of that much dust past the cyclone if you can adjust your inlet pipe so the dust is shooting toward the outside wall of the cyclone vs. straight at the outlet tube. You are essentially bypassing the cyclone's most effective zone by shooting dust toward the center. Make that change and I think you will be much happier with the results.
Matt, I have the Clearvue Cyclone in my shop with 6" ducting. Regarding pick up, It lessens what it will pick up when the 35 gal bin is about 80 full. Regarding separation, I clean my double stack of filters about once a month. I never see any chips whatsoever in the clean out, only fine particles.
I have the 1.5 c-flux the baby brother to your’s, my shop is at least half the size if not less and right now I have been using a 20’ x 4” flex hose and I’m super happy with the results and can’t wait to install duct work but like you said not very glamorous purchase so the duct work will have to wait. So glad you’re as happy as I am with your D/C. Thanks again always enjoy your videos.
Thanks for the video. I have been looking for someone (that actually knows what they're talking about) that does one on pipe diameters, velocities, CFM's and applications for the various configurations. For example, What applications need more velocity? Miter saw? How do you achieve that given pipe diameter, length, etc.
Matt, enjoy the videos, do have a question though regarding the Laguna dust collector system. Have admired their quality for awhile, what made you choose them over the many others?? I realize height played a role as will for me, also 3 hp vs. 2 hp considering the shop size? I guess what were your criteria, if you don’t mind sharing? Some of he reviews in early 17’ were not that favorable, thus the extra plate at the bottom of the cyclone etc. and your experience thus far. I am very close to order a unit trying to decide 2 vs. 3 hp maybe over kill, the extra is not that much, so thoughts?? Thanks
You clearly have a lot of productivity from your shop. Now that your dust problem is under control, maybe you could spend a few weeks organizing your clutter. Great video! I was interested the whole way, and after seeing about 40 RU-vid videos on dust collection, I have to say this is one of the best!!!
Dust collection is an important part to your shop! I originally had an Oneida 1.5 Hp from the 90's that had the micro filter inside the cyclone. Horrible to clean! I upgraded to another Oneida 3Hp with a setup pretty much like yours. A big difference is that the micro filter doesnt fill up with larger chips unless the main bin gets filled up. Change the main bin often and I never have to worry about cleaning the micro filter.
I see this video is quite old, but hopefully by now you figured out that the cyclone wasn't working properly because you had a bend right before it went into it. You need to have a long straight heading in there.
Seriously though. cool. And if your phone sound meter is anywhere close to accurate, be careful. decibels are misleading. they are logarithmic. it is in the word itself. deci (ten) bel ( in english Bell.) so the sound pressure for each additional decibel is ten times greater. Once you get on the top side of 90 serious permanent hearing loss is probable.
Some thing interesting that I've seen with Oneida collectors like Marc's is that while chips don't make it through the cyclone dust does and it needs to be dislodged. If he cleaned the filter per Oneida's recommendations I'm sure his dust bin would have more than he showed but still not near how much your getting. Good DC is a tough investment but after having it it's hard to consider going with out it.
I think given the price difference to a full size unit, I'd have built a small shed outside and run the pipe out to it. You never use the one door anyway and it would no longer block part of the door you do use. You would have gotten even better collection most likely and it would have freed up some more shop space. Plus you wouldn't have to mess with the garage door to empty the collector.
Something you can do to improve the performance of your dust collection system is to add vibrators. They have been used on conveyance systems for many years and come a variety sizes and mountings. The magnetically mounted ones are kind of handy because they are easy to move around. You put them on your lines that have the most problems with buildup and plugging, usually the longest ones and they keep the sawdust particles from sticking to the duct walls. You probably just need small ones for here and there and they can be wired into your power tools or you can use a current sensing switch that activates them when you turn on your machines. You can even mount them on your cyclonic separator to continuously knock down wood chips into the collector bin. They are used in industry and agriculture a lot to keep conveyors from plugging up.
There was one time while planing and jointing I wasn't paying attention to my cyclone bin, I filled up the bin, the cyclone and all the ducting to the planer. Packed solid. It took about 2 hours to clear it out.
This might seem like odd criticism but it's meant to be constructive because I like your videos, but I found myself skipping quite a few of them because of the thumbnail. I can't put my finger on exactly what it is but when I only have a bit of time to watch some videos and look in my subs, I'll often skip right over your videos because the thumbnail looks both boring and like an ad. Might be just me, or it might not. Certainly doesn't seem to bother the people that watch you... because they are watching you, but you never know who isn't watching you, if that makes any sense. Anyway, not trying to be nit picky, just providing you with some info from a viewer. Like I said, might be just me.
Matt - you can try sticking Dynamat on the metal part of the drum. this will reduce noise due to vibration, since the drum is acting as a large sounding board.
Good video bud I have the same system I love it ,what you could try doing like I did I used a couple coats of rainX on my collector window worked great on mine
Matt around the 19 minute mark I see the part that will greatly improve separation sitting on top of the lid of the drum, really easy install between the the cone and the drum! When I first got my PFLUX 3, I noticed it was separating ok but not great. You definitely should not be seeing so much large chips getting into the filter! After I contacted Laguna and installed the part it's been bang on as advertised. I think you're correct in that shorter cyclones won't be able to do as good of a job as larger, but I think these DC's are the best short barrel collectors currently on the market.
Someone else also mentioned this to me. I installed it last night but hadn't used it yet. I'm mostly frustrated that this isn't noted anywhere in the manual
It's because Laguna didn't really realize the airstream was an issue upon initial release (at first they didn't include this part with everything, but then a few people called them and explained similar issues and Laguna started including the part) post manual. It basically reshapes and tailors the airflow to give the cyclonic action a kick in the seat of the pants and make it more cyclonic. Oddly enough, this wasn't an issue with their 1.5HP C and PFlux, it's only when you get into the higher horsepower.
Matt ; have you installed the deflector bar and if so did you see any improved separation ? I am in the midst of installing my new PFlux 3, I've read Bill Pentz's online articles, I've added a neutral vane and I am considering adding a ramp as well, Matt and Nathaniel ; would either of you have any experience with these mods ?
Had wondered about the numbers on that. As impressive as the difference was, it is kind of amazing that they are still higher since you had to hold it back due to the meter.
Thanks for this video.As you said there's lots of statements out there about less than stellar separation but no demonstrations. I have been wondering how well these machines worked and I really appreciate you doing this.I am using a trash can separator and it passes less chips to the secondary collection bag than the Laguna. I guess I expected the Laguna to work better than it does.
