Early Analysis: Citation Pilot Unresponsive During Intercept over Nation’s Capital 

And That is proof why it is a good idea to stay away from gyms this one over stressed your heart! I flew with a guy that was slim 35 years old ran five miles a day before work at the airport. after his run he came in sat in his desk chair for a cool down be fore his usual shower. I walked out to hangar to put the Jepps in the airplane after the the update party was over. walked into the office and he was gone.

Airline pilots becoming incapacitated in flight is not unknown. In my view the entire medical testing is a waste of time with the exception that blind or deaf pilots shouldn’t be allowed. A friend of mine who was the epitome of fitness and Chief pilot of a 135 operation keeled over and died while he was on his daily run.

@@LimeyTX The medical checks have saved many lives by letting people know they have early warning signs, and ensuring the conditions are treated or managed. Along with blindness and deafness, psychiatric conditions must also be considered. IMO the best solution is to have a copilot or at least a competent adult who can operate the radio and follow instructions. Such passengers have landed planes many times, including a woman in her 80s a few years ago. Such a tragedy that the PPL holder owner of the plane didn't hire a copilot.

@@islandlife756 I agree. I was being a little facetious. But the sad fact is that no matter how strict the rules are people are still going to have unexpected incidents. My point is not that pilots shouldn’t have regular checks. My point is that the checks are no guarantee at all that the pilot is good for another 12 months. I suspect that if you examined enough data you would find incidences where a pilot died on the way home from the AME.

There are no guarantees. Period. Anyone can suffer from an immediately crippling medical emergency at any time, regardless of their otherwise apparently good physical health. For example, there are zero warning signs for aortic or cerebral aneurysms. One moment you're fine, the next moment the pipe bursts and you are down for the count. It can happen to anyone.

Agree, Don. I'm a retired EMT, studied nursing, armchair taildragger pilot. Though unlikely, I was wondering about fentanyl poisoning.

Thank you Don_and_his_stationair. As people have short memories but this does make the news - not front page. I rememeber an airline pilot who had a heart atttack at the controls, he didn't make it. The FO landed. The 1st class medical has stricter standards than the 2nd or 3rd. This pilot had his attack a month after the exam. The AME does what the checklist calls out. Do they add coronary angiograms too from now on? Yet still, it can happen. A friend of mine lost her dad, airline capt, he was having chest pains at home and went into the ER. He had a full attack there in the ER. They did all they could, he didn't make it.

Very true. An incapacitating medical emergency can occur to anyone, anywhere, at any time, regardless of their general physical health.

@@nancychace8619 Why the hell would you go straight to that? That's an absolutely ridiculous leap to make.

@@chuckschillingvideos If you go back and read through the thread, you'll find I did not go straight to this originally. I agreed that hypoxia was the most likely cause. That being said, I offered fentanyl poisoning as a possibility b/c it is an all too common and serious problem in our country. It crosses all social boundaries including those of economic wealth. This was the only other thing I could think of if not hypoxia. How is it that there was no attempt by any of the adult passengers to even communicate on the radio? Seems possible they were incapacitated. Drugs are pouring into our country at an alarming rate. Perhaps this problem is not well understood and underestimated by those whose lives have not been directly touched by it. If you are one of the folks who fall into that category, you are lucky. But for a vast majority, this is a serious issue that has been taking many lives. Pilots are human. We are subject to the same pitfalls as anyone. There is also a lot of garbage that goes on under the radar in the medical community. The bottom line is it's important to find out what happened, face it honestly whatever it was, learn from it as best we can and hope the family and friends can have genuine closure. Doesn't happen for anyone who can't face the truth, whatever it may be in any circumstance, not just this one. This is why I was asking about the possibility of testing tissue samples for O2 content, or drugs or alcohol. It happens.

When someone whom we personally know to be sharp gets in a snag, it always hits us a little harder. Makes us think more! At least it does me.

That must be very saddening. It seems he was known to many and seen by many on the circuit after his retirement from Southwest, where he was known as the king of safety. i hope we get helpful answers.

From all accounts this was a top notch pilot who would have most likely handled a sudden decompression situation. If he indeed suffered a medical wouldn't a passenger on the plane have been able to radio in the situation or been on the phone calling someone once they overshot thier destination? Seems the insidious decompression as described is at this point the most feasible explanation.

He could have had a heart attack or a massive stroke. He certainly was in that age group. Poor man, could not save his passengers. Hire 2 pilots !!!!!!!!!

@@dcdanger6151 Good evening dcdanger. You said; "wouldn't a passenger on the plane have been able to radio" This was the first time his daughter had flown to New York in the Citation. The F-16 pilots had noted that the shades had been pulled down on all the passenger windows were. Flying in the Citation/Leer is a little like flying in an airliner. You don't chat with the pilot like you do in an Aztec, etc. She probably did not even realize they had turned around. The plane remained at flight level 340. She probably did not see the airport.

So clearly losing cabin altitude does not always equal windows being frosted over on the inside.

These two accidents may be the death knell for Citation single pilot ops.

@@lbowsk I think the cause is certain design choices or a defective component

@@lbowsk Was the Payne Stewart accident the death knell for Learjet two pilot ops?

Wow. Even reports a pressurization problem and STILL allows a crash and burn.

It's inconveivable, really.

You wouldn't even need an oxygen sensor for that, a simple barometer would suffice. I'm sure those already exist as the cabin pressure sensors, the issue in past events like the Olympus Airlines flight seems to be that flightcrew misinterpreted the Master Caution as some other hydraulic issue, or they correctly identified the issue but didn't put their oxygen masks on in time.

In Boeing or Airbus Aircraft you will get a master caution, when the cabin altitude gets above 10.000ft! I guess it would be no problem to install that in bizzjets as well. These planes cost several million dollar so it would be no problem to mandatory install that system for maybe 50.000$.

@@Breenild Exactly. Something better that a caution light on the panel is needed so that cases such as that of the Helios 737 would never happen again. On a somewhat related note, and being a pilot myself (C185 non comercial), I cannot fathom how is it that there is not an "AMBIENT" cockpit-wide indicator of the current (and very critical) state of the different possible AUTO modes (autopilot, autothrottle, and specifics, such as Holding-Altitude, Holding-Speed, etc.)...perhaps through an overall noticeable (though subtler than a warning, of course) coloring of the instrument panelt backlighting (or a simulated equivalent with the newer digital screens), perhaps a change from ambar tones to green tones to blue tones, and so on.

I used to fly a Challenger business jet, it has an aural warning and calls ”cabin pressure”. Modern business jets will, in a case like this, automatically descend to 10,000 feet, or lowest safe altitude, if they lose cabin pressure and there is no pilot action

Thanks for watching!

And thank goodness for it!

Too coincidental. A lot of pilots will put their departure point as the last point when they load their flight plan in the auto pilot. That seems very possible here.

@@richardmcspadden9189 Not too coincidental at all. The last leg of the flight plan was CCC to KISP (253 degrees). The course from KISP to Elizabethton is about 250 degrees. When the autopilot hits the last waypoint and doesn't know where to go they fly the last heading or go to roll mode which is similar. No one puts their departure point as the last waypoint or you will be getting nuisance fuel warnings from the fms for the whole flight unless you have enough to return.

@FunFacts , While I initially had the same thought, I think it's actually just proceeding direct Elizabethton. If you project outward the final heading before the spiral, the track crosses directly over Elizabethan airport. Although the plane did indeed complete at least some sort of approach procedure for Islip Airport, the track does not heading and flight path does not line up with the runway at Islip, though it is somewhat close.

​@@jonasasplund1423 agreed

I have over 25K hours, military pilot, retired airline pilot etc etc...I have never put my dep airport as the last point in any FMS I have programmed unless it was the final destination on a round robin flight...just sayin. I agree with the concept it ended up on the final approach heading to ILS 24 at KISP, then at the end of the approach defaulted into heading hold...anyone care to guess what the final approach course is at KISP...239 degrees

The video title states "Nation's Capital", not "Capitol," implying the jet flew over Washington D.C., not the Capitol building itself.

Not only that, it was at an altitude that, while it'll trigger military action, invariably it's merely an intercept and attempt communications.

Wish in one hand and take a shit in the other hand and see which one gets filled first.

​@@kellanbradshaw461 he is probably not referring to this video but to mainstream media

The media loves hyperbole

Thanks for watching, Steveo.

Steveo!

Thank you.

Well said. I'm still on the fence about NAV vs. HDG, because NAV requires a magenta line and there was no waypoint to proceed to. But the argument that it would be unlikely to fly a straight track for several hundred miles in HDG mode is powerful, too.

Does the temperature drop, or does the pressure decrease move the dew point through a fairly-well controlled temperature in the chamber?

@@williamstrachan Pressure decrease causes the temperature to drop. I remember it got pretty cold inside.

@@marcinpasnicki248 No, cold outside temperatures makes the temperature drop. If it were balmy at 30k feet, it would be equally balmy inside an unpressurized aircraft but the fact is the higher the altitude, the colder the temperature.

@@chuckschillingvideos Don’t forget that low pressure chamber is located at an altitude close to sea level. Inside a building. Stable temperature around it. When you pump the air out of that chamber it causes the temperature inside that chamber to drop at what rate? 2 deg C per 1000ft. The same happens inside unpressurized airplane, glider, balloon… When you climb it will get colder inside the cabin.

This is essentially why we have Air Conditioning. All about the pressure! 👍🏻

His altitude was later amended by Atlanta to FL330 before entering Washington Center airspace because of traffic. This change was never acknowledged by the pilot. So whatever happened , happened before he reached FL340

Would such an experienced pilot not check the bleed valves ? I doubt. He was a commercial pilot as he flew for Southwest ; they do nothing without a check list and it would be on it. I don't see that man forgetting it, but I see him having a heart attack and dying. The autopilot would have done its "thing" until the plane ran out of fuel .

@@linanicolia1363I agree with you.

Pilots are trained to recognize hypoxia and yet the pilots in these incidents did not put on oxygen masks. Oxygen level can be monitored by sensor so it would not be a stretch for the aircraft auto-pilot to descend the plane to breathable altitude. No descent is no return for pilots and passengers.

Thanks Capt. Obvious.

One of he fighter pilots stated he could see the pilot sitting in the left seat and slumped to the right. Unfortunately....it wasn't a pressurisation failure 😢

@@bendietrees How do you reach that conclusion?

@@bendietrees What would the fighter pilot have seen if it was a pressurization failure?

Oh yeah I forgot the whole not having a door between the flight deck and the cabin thing

The windows weren't opaque or frosted over, so it wasn't a pressurization issue

@stevenwhitcomb9668 This is not necessarily so. They were frosted during the Payne Stewart accident, they were not during the Helios accident. Too soon to know just what happened, too soon to discard any possibility.

Earlier report indicated the window shades were closed when it was intercepted. When I flew charter it was quite common for passengers to nap.

I also think it was depressurization, but a slow depressurization. Everyone got sleepy as the plane went up until everybody was passed out. There's no coming back from that. Sadly, I think everyone on board was dead long before the plane hit the ground.

And some sort of a more assertive aural caution or warning regarding cabin pressure decrease.

Or have it linked to an audible and visible warning once it drops by 10% of what it should be, with todays technology surely that can’t be too difficult. If it’s a health issue maybe it’s time they regulate two pilot operation for these type jets.

The Citation has a cabin altitude warning which activates if the cabin altitude exceeds 10,000'. A loud horn, a Master Warning Light, and a Cabin altitude or pressure annunciator light. You can not ignore all this. I flew the Citation CE-550/560 (Citation II/V) from 1983 until 1995. This looks like pilot incapacitation to me, not a pressurization issue.

Why do people assume that airplanes come with nothing but a steering wheel and a brake pedal or that all pilots are comatose, deaf, blind except for 2.5° of foveal vision, unable to swivel their eyes or necks, and as attentive to what's going on in the cockpit as Monty Python's Dead Parrot? I mean, I know some of them are, but…

The cabin altitude warning system can fail, there's no reason it can't. I find it far more likely that this would happen than none of the passengers even attempting to take control the aircraft. The F-16 pilots didn't even see the passengers moving in the cabin, so it seems likely they were all out. NTSB will probably find something, they usually do.

@@_lime. Possible, but not as likely as pilot incapacitation, IMO. Are you a pilot (jets) or certified mechanic, by any chance?

@@oltimer5544 No I'm not qualified on jets, nor am I an aircraft mechanic. I work in the marine industry as an engineer, so I have technically inclined, and experience has lead me to believe that anything can and will fail. That being said, there is another possibility here that we haven't brought up, which is pilot misidentification. Probably the most similar commercial accident to this is Helios flight 522, which experienced a depressurization, incapacitation of the pilots, and subsequent crash due to fuel exhaustion. In that case, the pilots misidentified the cabin altitude warning as a take-off configuration warning. They lost crucial minutes trying to troubleshoot and by then hypoxia had already began to set in, impairing their judgement, causing them to focus on what they thought was the problem and not considering the potential for other causes. I'm not familiar with the warning sounds and lights in the Citation series jets, but if it's like the 737 where the sound alarm is the as used by other warnings, then it could lead to confusion.

The passengers probably had cell phones. If they knew the pilot was in distressed they could have made a call. The plane hit so hard I am not sure we will ever know.

Its easy to miss a cabin altitude warning horn if the warning system is not working properly. My argument agains the medical event is that with the pilot slumped to the right,, at some point the passengers would have noticed. Most biz jets have internet capability and the passengers would have been able to send a message somehow.

My theory is that they had no clue what happened in the cockpit. The door was evidently closed. The pilot died and the autopilot went on to do its " thing", until it ran out of fuel. The F-16's did not get the attention of the women in the back and that is the suspicious question. Were they asleep or were they knocked out ? Maybe they will figure out the possibility of cabin depressurization, if they find adequate tissue to analyze. Everything was in pieces, in a crater.

Watch cam videos and listen to people lose it when they see an accident. Now put them at 34,000 feet looking at death to themselves and their child and also the nanny. People can't even think to apply the brakes on their car when something is happening in front of them. Many couldn't handle seeing a dead guy

Many private jets nowadays have low pressure warnings. Not sure why it's not required though.

It is required and the Citation 5 has a very good high cabin altitude alert system. Goes off at roughly 11,000 feet. It would be very difficult to ignore.

Um,,, your body is equipped with a low oxygen indicator. To test just hold your breath.. 😡

@@michaelgarrow3239 Standby. I'm attempting to override my LOI right now....🤢

@@michaelgarrow3239 Technically that is a high carbon dioxide indicator. The backup, if I remember correctly is hydrogen ion concentration in the cerebral spinal fluid. The back up for the back up is low oxygen.

How many seconds would it take the O2 sensor to notice a dangerous drop in blood O2 levels after a depressurisation event?

@@igclappI’m not sure about the Garmin, but the Apple Watch checks O2 about every half hour if you use it for sleep tracking, and less often at other times, and only then you haven’t been moving much. So at least with that device, it is unlikely it would give you sufficient warning.

Me too man. Simply terrible.

Since there is no bulkhead; nor door, between the cockpit area and the passenger compartment, all 4 occupants surely suffered hypoxia... they were probably all dead before the aircraft slammed into the ground.

@@DonVideoGuy007 thats assunming the pilot was NOT the only one incapacitated - what happens if the pilot has a stroke?

@@ghostrider-be9ek in that situation, would there be no reaction from the pax? An F-16 flew close enough to verify that the pilot was slumped, but no pax noticed and made any sort of signal?

@@williamstrachan pax were prob sleeping or on their ipads , window shades down

Perhaps the cockpit windows would not have been frosted over if death was sudden from the hypoxia?

@@ibnewton8951 Good question. And if it was a pilot medical issue, why didn't the passengers do anything? The NTSB has lots of "splainin to do... Heartfelt condolences to the families involved.

@@ibnewton8951 I'm guessing on a warm day half hour into FL350 the windows don't freeze? I doubt the passengers would be just sitting there chilling while their plane has no pilot. For sure I would've been on that cockpit at least crying while watching my upcoming death.

@@h.martinez 🤣 Not a pilot are you?

The problem with this theory is that the pilot, at 69 years old still had a First Class Medical. Not exactly an easy thing to retain at that age. He had to be in excellent health. Doesn't rule it out, but certainly makes it more unlikely. But a sudden or insidious depressurization are quite a valid possibility. Hypoxia.

The FAA puts on hypoxia training at Sun N Fun every year which includes the chamber

FAA has a chamber in Oklahoma City available for all pilots. It is also free training so it's just a matter of getting there.

I remember reading a report some time ago about the FAA's justification for this. It amounted to the medical risks inherent with the altitude chamber, the inability for a single person to have identical experiences in multiple sessions (thus denying them the ability to make a reliable prediction for any individual), and the belief that having the knowledge of the symptoms phenomena, and response will be adequate to meet the emergency. I guarantee the costs factored in as well.

We did as part of the Coast Guard Aux training. Pretty eye opening.

She might have been napping since the shades were down.

@@loudidier3891 Two adults with a toddler - not sure that they could have all napped that long.

@@loudidier3891 No one said the shades were down. The intercept pilots just didn't report on the passengers.

@@Big_Ben_from_La_Mesa Other sources have said the F-16 pilots reported the shades were down.

@@loudidier3891 What are these other sources? Who did these pilots actually talks to?

Possibly. Depends on a few factors. We haven’t heard reports of what the windows looked like.

Not always. Some days you leave a contrail, some days you don't.

You would assume one of the 3 passangers in the back would do something and attempt to land or reach someone else, instead of just giving up and letting the plane crash

@@yeetandskeet They may not have realized until it was too late. Sounds like passenger window shades may have been closed. Easily could have been asleep, watching movies, or just assumed the flight was taking longer than expected for some reason.

@@richardmcspadden9189 you have heard from the F16 pilots stating pilot was slumped over the the left. So, window condition was not fgged up.

Very good question. I believe more to story.

Yes there is. They are more robust and reliable in newer aircraft.

@@richardmcspadden9189 And this aircraft; at 32+ years old, was very far from being a "newer aircraft".

@@richardmcspadden9189 What, exactly, is more robust and reliable?

The frosted windows aren’t a given with depressurization or hypoxia.

Oh, how I would love to spend some time with you and hear those stories.

NO CVR was required on this airplane FAr 91.609 . In this case since this airplane could be operated single pilot under a LOA letter of agreement single pilot and special training a CVR is not required.

@@TheFalconJetDriver I figured

@@TheFalconJetDriver I don't think it works like that. The 560 was, and still is, certificated for a two pilot crew. Just because there is a special exemption for certain pilots to fly it single pilot is not going to do away with the CVR requirement. In any event, my friend has a 560 just a few serial numbers later than the accident aircraft and it came equipped with a CVR as original equipment.

The pilot knew he had a 2 year old on board and kids have issues with their ears.....I am sure, he was operating the climb, for their comfort. I really feel he died after he programmed the auto pilot. The F-16's could see him, leaning towards the right seat, not moving....not responding. The windows in the back, were closed. The passengers did not notice them and that is the suspicious part. Could they have been asleep ? or maybe, they were passed out. That would be comforting for the families, instead of suffering a spiral descent to the ground. Noting anyone wants. Seconds are horrifying eternity.

You are correct. Misspeak on my part. Thank you.

Thank you.

Just curious, would a depressurization not lead to a fogging of the windows making it impossible to see into the aircraft?

@@loganbobrow9333 That would only be the case in an rapid decompression where the pressure changes extremely rapidly. Slow decompression would not have the same indicators like that.

About myocarditis from vaccination

Yep...Pressurisation failure on climb out would not necessarily mean condensation, (be it light or serious), or ice on the inside, since ice would come at altitude. Looks like everything comes down to last ATC conversations acknowledged. The FDR will tell the true picture.... Payne Stewart's Learjet flight was intercepted because there was no reply back to ATC...so exactly the same as this. Shows how on the ball the ATC people were in this instance. Same end result. A high speed spiral descent into terrain once the fuel was exhausted. Dead people and a big hole in the ground..... Should there be a VCR it will tell us if the pilot completed the checklists as he should have done. Despite being a single pilot, as a professional with thousands of hours in his book, he would / should have 'voiced' the checklists as he went through them.... it will be interesting to see if this evidence becomes available....if the VCR survived the impact. James Hennighan Yorkshire, England

@@antd8667 By the way, wasn’t that the reason several attendees at COP-26 insisted on pilots who did not receive theV?

@@jameshennighan8193 No CVR on this aeroplane.

That’s what I call due diligence. Thank you on behalf of your passengers.

We’re working on it! Should have our next one out this summer.

@@richardmcspadden9189 Thank you :)

@@richardmcspadden9189 I pray you never have to do another one, or, if you do, that all aboard get home uninjured.

@@elcastorgrande like most of my colleagues in safety. Our hope (and prayer) is to work ourselves out of a job.

Radio signal to whom? And what would they do upon receiving the signal?

Standard IFR lost communications procedure is to continue along your route of flight to your destination if you are not in VFR conditions. We don’t know the exact conditions of the day but it could be that there was IMC present. The aircraft did not necessarily follow the other steps for lost communications procedures, but there is nothing here to indicate the aircraft was a threat to people on the ground. At most it was an aircraft that wasn’t following proper lost communications procedures. After all, the aircraft was still flying it’s filed route. It wasn’t until the aircraft failed to descend and land that ATC would have the smoking gun that this wasn’t just a loss communications issue. I also believe that NORAD was likely tracking this aircraft for quite some time beforehand, they just decided not scramble until the aircraft maneuvered towards D.C.

Yes, I agree. Why fly so long without being intercepted by the jets. Is there some kind of protocol whereby the controllers at Atlanta and New York contact NORAD and report a non responsive aircraft at FL 340? Why over the DC area? The aircraft was above the restricted airspace over DC anyway!

I do believe I read that NY Center , maybe even Washington center, did contact NORAD well before the plane turned over Long Island. After the plane made the 180 degree turn they scrambled F16's out of Atlantic City to intercept. As stated above....The plane was still following it's filed flight plan up to this point and was probably being treated like a lost communication flight by ATC. This procedure does require the pilot to squawk 7600 on his transponder though, and this should have thrown up a red flag to ATC.

@@lyleparadise2764 If the pilot was a victim of hypoxia I doubt that he would have time to set the transponder but the controllers can verify if the pilot is receiving transmissions by simply giving him a heading to fly. If the A/C flys that heading then for sure he can hear you.

There is!

Thank you for watching and commenting.

Not true.

Yes, big red master waring light

Trains actually have something like that, the so called dead man's switch. If the required action is not taken, the train will brake. Not sure about implementing something similar in aircrafts, though

I would pay a lot of money for an alarm that can wake the dead. 😁🧟‍♂️⏰

Commercial flights need clearance from air traffic control to change altiture, for traffic separation.

There are autopilots being developed for this that will navigate to the nearest airport and contact ATC.

@@emperorofthegreatunknown4394 _There are autopilots being developed for this that will navigate to the nearest airport and contact ATC._ Actually *have been* developed. Search for Garmin Autoland. It's not the autopilot, but the GPS doing this; but the end result is the same.

Exactly what I was wondering. The Payne Stewart Lear experienced that.

That seems very probable.

It all depends on the plane and conditions. In general the Cessna isn't likely to ice over because of the equipment on board.

I've been told that it only ices over if the depressurization is rapid and total. Slow loss of pressurization doesn't show it.

Why would the windows be iced over?

Does the Citation have a locked door separating passengers from the cockpit? In the absence of frosted windows, and so presumably conscious passengers, that's the only thing that would make sense to me.

agree about the passengers, nobody is mentioning that. Also, could it be carbon monoxide? Can CO accumulate in a plane?

If the pressurization or oxygen system is malfunctioning or not programmed correctly, it could just hold a much higher cabin altitude and still hold temperature inside the aircraft, leading to hypoxia, but not a frozen cabin.

@@marcoagostoni8827 No. The cabin air in a citation is turned over several times per minute. There is no potential internal source of CO generation either.

​@@marcoagostoni8827 yes, and it sounds about like this

Most planes have these warnings, esp newer jets.

Technically its a valid class 1 with 3rd class privileges. Theoretically it’s legal if he wasn’t flying for hire

@@garrettboone4306 You are Wrong. It is still a first class medical because that is the standard that the exam was conducted under after six months It is still a valid first class medical with 2nd class privileges for 12 months from the month the exam was conducted. Not a 3 rd. class as you state. FAR part 91 and that is what he was operating under only requires a 2nd class medical not a first. If he where flying under Far 135 he would require a 1 class medical good for six months as a captain. after 6 months he could fly as a First Officer for additional 6 months.

Nope that is incorrect! It is still a first class medical because that is the standard that the exam was conducted under after six months It is still a valid first class medical with 2nd class privileges for 12 months from the months the exam was conducted.. FAR part 91 and that is what he was operating under only requires a 2nd class medical not a first. If he where flying under Far 135 he would require a 1 class medical good for six months as a captain. after 6 months he could fly as a First Officer for additional 6 months. the report is wrong. This pilot was flying FAR part 91 and that only required a 2nd class Medical not a First. I hope you are not a pilot if you are you need to brush up on FAR part 67.

Thank you for commenting.

Not hypoxia. F16 pilots could see the pilot slumped over. Windows would be fogged up if a pressure issue.

@@davidcampbell8287 not necessarily. Unless part of the aircraft was missing letting outside air in, the heat provided by the bleeds/ ACM could still be contained in the cabin keeping things somewhat warm. Even with a hard pressurization system failure or open outflow valve, the heat proved by the bleeds *should* still be entering the cabin.

@@SuperMillerman10 so there is no depressure warning? At 34k 30-60 seconds useful conciousness or so its said.

and more if at climbout as is stated here....whats the explanation for that?

They do the bare minimum unless they have reason to suspect literally *anything*

​@@JetSkiSuper7I see what you did there. 🤣🤣🤣🤣👍

It's all about the mighty dollar. They know if they did a rigorous job, most won't come back. My ame does 10-12 an hour.. Whole day.. At $175pp..2 days a week. Yes that's what's called a cash cow.

So if you are concerned about this you should probably fine a new AME for yourself!

Put a mirror under your nose, if it steams up, you pass, if not, call the coroner.

By the time it starts dropping and warning it may be too late. The Time of useful Consciousness for FL 340 is 30 seconds or so. So, the O2 sat drop is very rapid.

@jerry kurata good point, I think it would probably depend on that unique symptoms per person thing, how quickly you are beyond help, What is hopeful is with the recent 'Human Malware' we have seen a good percentage, mainly younger people with walking Hypoxia (due to the lung damage) and walking pneumonia, a lot of people affected by human malware (2019-ncov) have not realized how sick they are, and a lot of them have oxygen levels showing 30%,50%,70% ranges give or take (and sadly have been good part of those who end up in ICU) so while oxygen monitor won't save everyone I think it is an extra tool in the tool Luggage carry-on bag.... (ha)

@jerry kurata Additional thought on idea is the data read out can or is saved (and might be able to also be backed up to black boxes down the road) so even if the oxygen detector did not save someone, you have extra record of the pilots abilities. Too many times pilots are blamed for bad choices, yet so many issues with Cockpit Fume events (from small planes all the way to Boeing or Airbus) still unaddressed, and the fact that atmosphere contamination doesn't act like a binary switch (either awake or passed out) there is a scale of wakefulness, and I.M.O. even "minor" fume events have to somewhat impact the "thinking" of a pilot, and thus events outside the pilots control can cause the mistakes in some cases. but until we have better monitoring and actually fix some of the Cockpit fume events (number 1 is Boeing / airbus planes near end of journey having fume events happen as they descend around 10,000ft Alt, over and over again for many years now, and events still not solved. Not every fume event actually has a smell or smoke either so, so many things right now accepted that can cause pilots to have risk to be impaired and risk being fully blamed for "pilot errors" when we don't have a system in place to monitor quality of air, actual oxygen levels, and even recording other substances in the Cockpit air to some sort of black box. Lack of a system to help clear pilots names, and right now Pilots are easy to blame for so many accidents. When again, if something is slowly even just barely impairing them and it is not fair to always blame a pilot when we don't have the recording of Cockpit atmospheric conditions.

That really only works when someone aboard is a relative or friend of the pilot. Here, it's a professional pilot and the "client", or worse, the "client's daughter" and it's going to be awkward putting her to work in the snug right seat of a Citation.

@@igclapp Work nothing. Unless an emergency happens it's prime viewing. I'm not putting a non pilot to work.

@@joshuahudson2170 If that 560 right seat is anything like the 501's I sat in, the prime view thing will become old real fast for a non-aviation enthusiast. Plus I couldn't reach the cookie oven from the right seat. Also imagine telling the daughter of your employer (who hired you because you are supposedly the bullet-proof 30,000 hour "super pilot") "Yeah, I just need you to sit up here in case I keel over". There will be a phone call from baby doll to daddy real fast.

Australia hasn't had the experience of having large commercial aircraft rammed into public buildings. Two different countries, two different experiences.

Doesn't Australia have kind of a proud tradition of bogans? 😁

@@j_taylor you have your southerners, we have our bogans.

This was a Part 91 op

That's how the owner, John Rumpel, was able to donate so much of his fortune to things like the NRA and Trump: BY CUTTING CORNERS, like not having a co-pilot for his 'adopted 49 year old daughter.' He will likely collect new monies for both the airplane, its crash, and his 'daughter's' life insurance policies. His grieving won't last long, IMO.

⁠​⁠@@davidpeterson7197 No WAY you found a way to make this about Trump. Incredible. Hats off to you, bud.

@@davidpeterson7197 Way to go doofus. Politics have no place in this discussion.

Cry more you two

Status of the passengers is a big unknown that could be a helpful clue.

Not if the cockpit door is locked, as required on some planes. Does anyone know if this plane had a locking door to the cockpit?

@@shannajones9014 It doesn't have one

@@shannajones9014 Only 121 Air carriers are required to have locking doors.

If it where due to Hypoxic Hypoxia the passengers were out like a light too!

Not necessarily. A sudden depressurization could cause fog to form in the cabin air due to sudden cooling below the dew point due to adiabatic expansion, and some of that moisture could attach to the window panes, they being the coldest part of the airplane even with normal pressurization. But unless the a/c pack has failed there will be warm dry air flowing into the cabin which will clear up the suspended fog and dry up the windows. If the pressurization pack fails to supply air to the cabin, then the cabin temp will drop, the windows initially being the coldest will serve as condensation spots for water vapor, which will seep out of the insulation blankets and a cumulate in the stagnant cabin air. The blankets are as cold as the fuselage skin on one side and Initially almost as warm as the cabin on the other side and are often damp from condensation of vapor from cabin occupants, food, humid air at lower altitudes, etc. The blanket condensation may freeze on the fuselage skin (interior) at high altitude then thaw on descent and may not get a chance to evaporate before the next cycle and the blanket may not dry out. But if you button up the airplane up on the ground on a hot day you might see rain on the inside of the windows when inside humidity reaches 100%. On older airplanes with not so well-fitting blankets, enough of the frozen condensation can thaw when descending that you can get "rain on the plane" during approach.

More modern jets do that.

@@richardmcspadden9189 And even some piston singles. And some turboprop singles will even land themselves if the pilot is incapacitated. What a time to be alive!

doesn't mean anything. stroke & heart attack cannot be foreseen by physical exam.

@@garymartin9777 I agree. I’ve had about 80 1st class medical and many EKG’s. These exams are NOT a thorough check that you’d have your GP do. Agree, anyone anytime could keel over from xxx (heart attack, stroke, aneurysm etc.

Almost zero chance of that since no passengers were seen by any of the F-16 pilots. If the passengers had been conscience they would have been seen from the point when the airplane turned around in new jersey, i.e. they would have noticed.

@@2011blueman ya exvept all window shades reported down.... research

@@davidcampbell8287 _ya exvept all window shades reported down.... research_ No one has said that...research.

@@Big_Ben_from_La_Mesa Except the F16 pilots reported that they were as reported by NBC news....

​@@davidcampbell8287 David, I have viewed all the NBC News reports on this that I could find. All mentioned the pilot slumped over to the right, but none mentioned the passengers or window shades. If you've actually seen this in a NBC News report, could you please share the time and date so I can confirm this? Thanks!

That is exactly correct! If it hadn't run out of fuel first, it would have passed a few miles south of 0A9.

I concur with Dan's opinion. Not hypoxia, but a medical emergency with the retired airline pilot flying single pilot. R.I.P.

At least we know that it had nothing to do with vaccination status. As we all know, they are safe and effective.

@@ChazToz His justification for why that *has* to be the case is weak though. The windows wouldn’t necessarily frost over in the case of depressurization

@@ejag7375 Because Dan "Goober" Gryder is an imbecile. His numbskull "theory" is the pilot stroked out from Covid vaccine.