@wargent99 Wow. What an ignorance. Should we tolerate and fly an airline where 30% of the pilots may have an invalid pilots license? I won't fly with them, nor do I want my friends and family to fly with them, nor do I want them to fly over my house. And there are people in Europe working in administrative functions from different background, skin color and religious believes. Just that the majority is white doesn't mean that we should automatically ignore safety.
I am happy to hear this phrase, this is the only way this company will become better, it is the way to go through to get better, I am sorry, Pakistan and Pakistani people will see better days eventually, and I am incredbly sad for the people who lost their lives
I pray that the Pakistani people are able to get what they deserve. A civil aviation system based on integrity and with the number one priority of safety.
All these issues at PIA were well known when I was involved in airline insurance over 30 years ago. If there had been concerted action by aviation insurers back then, to suspend the insurance coverage to apply sufficient pressure to meet suitable safety standards, things could have improved. Sadly commercial and competition considerations ruled in the aviation insurance market and corruption ruled inside Pakistan.
Who is the insuerer of pia it should be banned in aviation industry it is also their gross negligence to overlook all these things. Seems like there is no international checks on the airlines by international agencies and due to their blind eyes many human lives lost. These accidents could be prevented if we have strict adherence to SOPs trainings etc which must be furthur check by insuerer and international bodies. All aviation experts should come forward and raise their voice on this issue. Saving a single human life is more important than any other commercial interest.
@@michaelmartinez1345 It has been known under various names starting in October 1946 as Orient Airways but it is the same organisation (or lack of such) with just name changes.
I said a few weeks ago i suspected that pilot who crashed needed his licence checking. The stunning incompetency he showed cannot be explained any other way.
Both pilots involved had no licensing discepancies. They were as experienced as they should have been, unlike those 260 rogue pilots at PIA who had their flight courses taken for them for money. The mentality and attitiude of the captain especially will hopefully prove to be woefully inadequate and incompetent regardless. Just staggering.
@@linchester8464 There were some very experienced Captains who made horrible mistakes causing huge losses of life; e.g. Captain van Zanten from KLM who was mainly responsible for the Tenerife desaster had more than 11000 hours flight experience, was the Chief Flight Instructor and the Security Director of KLM; Captain Hasanuddin from Trigana Air Service Flight 267, who flew his aircraft straight into a mountain, had even more than 25000 hours of flight experience. So, that is sadly possible: Experience prevent not from making horrible, deadly mistakes.
I’m an AMT at a major airline and frequently specially in the E190 I was assigned to download the FOQA data via a PCMIA card and send via Ethernet. Well now I just realize what it’s the purpose of the FOQA. Thanks Juan.
To describe this as disheartening to the people of Pakistan would be understatement. This level of corruption and absolute disregard for safety, shouldn't be possible in this age. The Pakistan public should demand the absolute maximum punishment for those involved. It amounts to murder and should have the corresponding punishment.
Hi John, we should be greatful that it is for the first time a Pakistani government had exposed this. Because previous government have always tried to cover things up. This government has never been in power before and they are exposing all the corruption that has been carried out by previous governments. They have already exposed the fact PIA has bogus employees that were on the payroll and have never worked before for the airline, this is how the previous governments created employement. Having family from Pakistan even they agree it is about time these establishments get named and shamed around the world so that they either are overhalled or finished.
@@haroonsiddique6369 We have a saying in the States. It goes like this: "Sunshine is the best disinfectant." In other words, public disclosure should help expose and remediate the problem.
Having worked for Gulf Air and Etihad, I have always had a gd experience working with EASA, very professional, all of our Level D simulators were/are EASA Qualified,...thx again Juan
The sad thing is that PIA was an amazing airline before, with Jacqueline Kennedy (JF Kennedy's wife) endorsed the air line and stated that they were 'Great people to fly with', which then became PIA's slogan. During the 60s and 70s it was ranked one of the top and was once ranked amongst the top five in global aviation. PIA was considered as a trend setter in Asia’s aviation industry: * First to introduce Boeing service * First to show in-flight movies * First non-communist airline to fly into Peoples’ Republic of China * First airline to operate 2nd route to China over the mighty Karakoram Range * First airline to go into auto-ticketing. * First airline to start legendary routes like Boutique Route and Pearl Route * First airline to operate to Europe via Moscow * First airline to land in Oslo * First airline to establish a planetarium in Karachi and Lahore * The first airline to operate ‘air safari’ by Boeing * And the first national carrier to service its armed forces in peace and war It upsets me to see that an airline that had sucha bright future be destroyed by corrupt individuals and establishment. I really hope they come out stonger from this or just dismanted the airline for good so no more lives are played around with.
* The first airline to hundreds of pilots with fake licenses * The first airline to routinely kill it's passengers * The first airline whose pilots make Mr Bean look good
And now by the grace of Almighty Allah PIA has become the first airline to kill so many innocent passengers in air crashes by their Fake pilots. Those golden days of 1960's are long gone. Lets talk about the present now. And at present PIA is the worst and most corrupt airline in the world and it should be banned completely before more innocent passengers lose their precious lives.
@@toddscallan8781 I don't get what sharia Law has anything to do with this... you just sound pathetic. Emirates, Qatar, Etihad, Saudi, Royal Jordan, Turkish Airlines are all airlines of Muslim countries. All im stating is the fact an airline that had such a good past has been destroyed by corrupt governments and individual's.
As a Pakistani, it hurts, it really does but this is much needed slap that our aviation administrators craved for ages. They literally ran a world class airline to the ground with their nepotism, corruption and incompetent behavior. Hopefully, this ban will allow PIA and Pakistan Aviation Industry as a whole to mend their ways. We have hope with the present government, if it wasn't for their minister, it would have never came out but so glad it did. This walk of shame was necessary
FOQA or Flight Data Monitoring programme we had collected data from something like 3,500 sources. Trivial data is recorded such as which of the seven PTT was pressed, the pressure applied to the parking brakes, the fluid levels in the toilet and so on as well as the “big” data on speeds, rates and the positions of controls. The data extracted could be fed (even I could do it) into simulation software so that entire flights could be replayed and studied in detail. When aircraft such as the Airbus have data feeds and collection devices available “off the shelf” and software, such as Aerobytes, available as an instantaneous download it is criminal that a monitoring system has not been put in place. EASA’s prohibition might give PIA the nudge the need to put such a system in place.
@@cleversonsutil4495 It is not just a software "program" but Management Program... that needs to be implemented deep into the "culture" of the airline, not just a software where someone just loads numbers and print or email reports. It is just a part of a much lager safety practice across a true Safety Culture of the entire company.
Alfredo Márquez I helped start a FOQUA program years ago at a major US airline. It is not something that you can pick up a generic FOQUA template and plug in your airline info and call it good. It is an incredible amount of work and takes buy in from the pilot group. I will bet my left kidney that they will not have acceptable Program in 6 months. It is quite apparent that PIA is full of corruption rot, probably graft and a serious old boy network. One of of the largest challenges we had when the FAA created this many moons ago was trying to convince the pilot union that the data from the FDR and other data sources would be used in any punitive manner against the flight crew. I can’t fathom the uphill battle PIA management is going to face trying to convince their pilot group that this program will not be used punitively especially after this cluster f&ck disaster they they just had. Hell, in this part of the world management MAY use as a weapon depending on the culture of the airline. That is a major hurdle that needs to be overcome as well. Implementing major programs like this may be easy or a nightmare because of the culture. If you have to change the entire airline culture and with all the things coming out about this carrier, the way they have been “doing business”, it will become an agonizing slow process and may not even be achievable unless they start from scratch because it appears systemic rot permeates though all levels.
Thanks for this insightful report Juan which included a brief but vital discussion of "FOQA" and the "Swiss Cheese Model of Human Error Calculation". Another in a series of reasons why I choose your channel to stay well informed on all things related to aviation and safety culture.
Skies of Europe just got a little safer in my opinion ! As i write a PIA flight is on it's way from BHX to ISB, as far as i can tell there are no other PIA aircraft on the ground in the UK & the 01/07/2020 (07/01/2020) inbound PIA ISB to LHR should be cancelled.
I really love that line when you say "Folks in Pakistan deserves better" Thank you for doing all these video about the crash and hope we learn something from the mistakes
Wow what a great update thanks Juan. What action are we taking in light of all this. On a more scary note PIA I believe is not the only airline affected by corruption, political pressures, and terrible safety standards. What will it cost to bring them out, more lives?
May you can say in this case: There were not holes in the cheese, there were simply no cheese. It's really sad that 98 human beings had to die before something obviously necessary has started to be done.
Simon W Sir, I have an FAA and Indian CPL. Been flying for a year now. Haven’t had to deal with any corruption yet though India could do without the red tapism and bureaucracy. Indian pilots have to jump through a whole lot of hoops to get certified. I’m sorry your experience flying in India wasn’t good.
Dashmesh. My experience was excellent, thank you. No need to apologise. I enjoyed my flying in India as much, or more than in other parts of the world. My comment was related to corruption generally. For example, one Indian chap bribed the DGCA while I was there. He told me this himself. Corruption has no place at all, in aviation. That 1/3 of Pakistan pilots are suspected of having fake licenses is awful- I'm sure that's not the case in India.
I follow with Interest your Videos and I appreciate your Inputs on PIA and since I am Aviation Enthusiasts and a doctor with Aviation Medicine and Hyperbaric Medicine Qualifications , I have Learned a Lot from your Videos , PIA as I know suffers from SMS Safety Management issues and not Following the SOP , Standard Operating Procedures and your Video is spot on ,....... I hope PIA Improves its SMS and also CRM Crew Resource Management Training for both the Pilots and also the Cabin Crew who also Suffers from the SMS issues as well hope you Mention that Cabin Crew training Issues as well , that EASA also had Highlighted before
Most, if not all, institutions in Pakistan are corrupt to the core. This specially includes licence issuing bodies in government where bribes and political favours are an open secret. If flying pilot licence system is rugged, every other system is rigged too.
Has the FAA also revoked authorization of PIA to fly or are they waiting until there is a major incident in airspace under FAA authority? Their direct flights between Pakistan & USA airports were last approved back in April 2020.
Not that I can see. The FAA has several advisories for flying into Pakistani airspace because of terrorism but I can't find anything regarding PIA flights to the US.
There is a list of airlines or even whole Countries banned from EASA airspace. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_air_carriers_banned_in_the_European_Union
You hit the nail on its head!! This sort of thing is far more endemic in aviation, in many 3rd world countries (and some that are even considered "developed"), around the world, than most people realize!! The only reason this insane level of fraud and deception came to light, is because of the recent PIA crash. Now, I can't be sure that it is _this_ bad in these other places (fake licenses), but major problems are still systemically present, such as poor training (including non-existent CRM), lack of skills, experience and very poor airmanship! The level of training and scrutiny that exists in the United States, is simply not there! Aviation can give a false sense of security, because there are many "checks and balances" and redundancies that come in to "save the day" for a pilot's incompetence! But one fine day, when things actually do go wrong, the chickens come home to roost, and the result can be DEADLY, like this PIA crash (and several others we have seen around the world). This is exactly, why neither me, nor my family, know better than to *step foot* on any of these airlines! My preference, whenever possible, is to fly *ONLY US CARRIERS,* and if that is not possible, I stick to "well known" carriers like British Airways, Lufthansa, Singapore Airlines, Qantas and so on.
Thanks for this disturbing information JB. I guess anything is possible with money under the table. 🤥🙁 As I heard "PiP" in the the background agreeing with you as this thing goes "KABLAMO"! 💥 You one smart kid "PiP"!
Thanks for this information. I can follow parallels with safety management systems I’m familiar with in the marine transportation industry. It makes your report very relatable. Too bad it takes a tragedy to initiate REAL action.
Thanks. We in GA have something similar to FOQUA. If we beat the ATC controller to the phone to self-confess a boo-boo to the FAA, we don’t get penalized... well, maybe
How the mighty have fallen. I remember years ago, going to the roof of Car park 3 at Heathrow Airport and watched a PIA 747 come into land. It was the smoothest landing with hardly a puff of smoke as the tyres touched the runway. Even the group of plane spotters were open mouthed in admiration.
About the monitoring software. There are something like 180 countries in the world and almost all of them have at least one airline. I suspect that there are commercial software solutions out there for doing this.
12 years ago the flight I was on from Malaysia just landed at Manchester UK just ahead of a PIA flight from Pakistan. I could'nt believe the amount of security that came swarming in for that flight to check passports etc. As the passengers for that flight tagged onto the end of our line. A VERY NOTICEABLE JUMP in Processing Staff. I believe there are similar problems with certain North African Countries too. CRAZY THING IS with BREXSHIT, UK Nationals could be waiting for upto two hours to get through Customs and Immigration as Non European Nationals now have to do. Also means any regular (non business traveller) wanting to travel into the EU from Pakistan will have to transit through Dubai and Fly in through Emirates, as all National carriers ticket prices are usually more expensive.
How does this affect a pilot that has a Pakistani pilots license but is flying with another company? This seems to bring into question any pilot license from that country.
I read a news report that Vietnam, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar and UAE have grounded Pakistani pilots and suspended ground engineers and mechanics until they pass a review process
It would be interested what the word license means, I assume it's for pilots of passenger jets. I will assume they have a license to fly a Cessna, but not one to fly either passenger jets or specific jets like some Airbus model. Did they try to pass licensing but failed then paid someone off or did they just buy the license and never made an attempt pass. I already will pay more to fly most western, Japan, Korea, or China airlines over anyone else including old Soviet countries, I guess paranoia is justified.
@@johnpinckney4979 the short answer is "no." Pakistan is hardly unique in having government corruption and a national carrier with questionable safety practices. That's always a potentially tragic combination.
@@wormhole331 That's a convenient excuse for Boeing, especially with the Ethiopian airlines flight. Also, Boeing actively discouraged airlines from giving pilots extra training. See the memos they released, I never expected it to be that severe, especially compared to their past. Also relying one a single sensor, among other issues. Clearly there was an issue with the plane's release, the airlines didn't start operation in time with the 737 Max release, but accidents happened much more quickly with the Max. Even 'mentour pilot'(boeing pilot with a youtube channel), who was defending Boeing, changed his attitude once he'd seen the memos etc.
@@DoubleMonoLR don't get me wrong. Boeing screwed the pooch with that initial MCAS setup especially using single sensors. But do you think if Jaun was flying those planes that they would crash? I don't think so. Because any competent pilot already knows how to recognize and fix a stab trim runaway. Faulty MCAS and lack of training for those dodgy airlines both contributed.
There could be multiple layers of fraud in the pilot qualification records. That should be thoroughly investigated and resolved by a trusted external authority before PIA is reinstated.
I wonder if these problems go back to pilots having different social levels? Such as Left seat having a higher 'level' than the Right seat so Left seat doesn't have to acknowledge anything from the right seat?
I believe the cockpit recording with show that the copilot made no verbal inputs during the approach and attempted lading prior to the crash. That’s inherent of no CRM but pilot hierarchy. Don’t speak unless I ask you a question.
John Paul Lafferty on another similar but scary note is there are police departments out there that operate on such a caste system. i used to work for one of them (underline used to).
I do hope other airlines will pay close attention to scrutiny of current/former PIA pilots applying to work for them if 1/3 hold fraudulently obtained licenses!
It's heart breaking to hear what has happened to PIA. I flew PIA from Chicago to Lahore via Manchaster back in 2006 on brand new 77L and it was a tremendously good experience but this is just sad.
This isn't an "airworthiness issue". The aircraft was fine until first contact with the gear up. This is a safety and quality assurance issue. It's a company internal "personality" issue. I want to say safety culture but, I'm afraid some may say that is racist. In Canada we preach "safety culture" and it's still difficult to get the 1950's high level management mentality to listen.
Wild Bill57 I think it highly unlikely unless overseas oversight both on the flight deck and in the corridors of power (CAA/PIA) is implemented until such time that the EUSA ban can be reviewed I wonder too if if other international authorities will follow the EUSA lead - what thinks Uncle Sam for example?
@@av8tor261 I would call it an airworthiness issue, just not with the plane but the airline itself isn't airworthy... So I guess they will need to schedule an airline D check :D
I’m Pakistani and it’s excellent news those who are in charge will actually now start to value what they did have and why they were doing wrong with ppl life’s
G'day Juan, This is truly shocking and thank you for bringing these official details to our attention. PIA is one of the few airlines in the world I would avoid unless there were no alternatives, however, after the tragedy last month and the possibility that a large number of 'pilots' have "fraudulent" licences, there is no way I would fly with them. I want the folks 'up front' to be as experienced and as qualified as possible. It's almost unbelievable that this can happen in this day and age. How did these 'pilots' get a job at PIA in the first place. The employment of these 'pilots' should be terminated immediately and PIA should double check the qualification of all their pilots ASAP. If the airline is banned from flying into EU nation airports then, I consider, it should be banned from flying into any other nations' airports. One wonders what the FAA's opinion of these developments are at this time. Thanks again for bringing us this important news. Cheers, BH
WOW! Let this sink in: "More than 260 out of 860 pilot licenses issued by the Pakistani authorities and used by pilots operating for air operators certified in Pakistan are fraudulent." More than a quarter of pilot's flying commercially in Pakistan aren't qualified to fly!! WOW!! Scary! That's some institutional "Catch Me If You Can" action right there! Looks like EASA did!
A short story. I worked for a large company that did air medical ops. I was the base safety manager. The company had a safety program where they wanted everything reported. Not to get anyone in trouble. But to identify trends. I was onboard with this. The rules were that if a person didn’t report an issue they could get fired. Well the customer, a hospital, told me that if I reported anything about them they would have me fired. I stopped being the safety manager. It wasn’t worth the $100/month.
It's unfortunate that it took so many incidents/deaths on PIA airliners for EASA to suspend PIA operations. It's also unconscionable that PIA corporate ignores the safety issues it was presented with, and the pilot licensing (fraudulent) ratio is an abomination and those that hold fraudulent pilots licenses should be imprisoned for life..........
Holy cow. Thanks for sharing. Important to be vigilant. Thank you EASA. I wondered how this might have compared to Saudi, another hot spot of terrorism. Pakistan has been enigmatic for years, but certainly has had an overabundance of terrorist activity in recent times. Stay safe out there!
Was EASA comfortable and confident in granting the last extension? Or was there some procrastination based on there not have been a serious crash and death toll at that time? It is human to go that way, but the consequences are now very clear.
Speaking of Swiss Cheese - EASA expresses concerns regarding whether PIAs SMS is achieving its objective - But since they were operating on a TCO approval, EASA them selves have approved the system.
This is very similar to the Mexican Federal Government Learjet crash in Mexico City on 4 November 2008 that killed some high government officials. Investigation showed that neither pilot was qualified to fly the plane.
There are enough certified pilots around this world. There are enough aircrafts operated by certified carriers around this world. It is now the very best time to sort out the raisins from the rotten.
It would appear this information has been known for a long period of time. Sadly due to a slow taking of action many lives were lost. If EASA had acted sooner and with greater enforcement, maybe we would't be in the situation we are now.
Just said the same thing to my wife. I sure as hell hope the AMA is actually testing every medical person from that country for competence vs paperwork.
International medical graduates desirous of practicing in US need to retrain (repeat residency) in their desired specialty in US once they are certified by ECFMG. ECFMG checks and verifies transcripts and allows IMGs to take USMLE. USMLE is a standardised multistep step exam which all US graduates need to pass in order to practice. Based on the scores in this exam they compete with US grads for residency position.
"Resubmit for further disapproval"... Yeah, I like that. It suggests that the EISA is fed up with PIA's delays and inaction and will regard any efforts they make in the future with "extreme prejudice." The problem here isn't in the particulars. It is in the culture, both corporate and national.
@@Inkling777 invalid licenses repeated safety violations years of ignored requests to upgrade saftey... doesnt sound like prejudice to me, your responsible for your own ship and the bias of others is formed be the way you command her
Wow what is the FAA going to do with PIA? Are they still flying to JFK? This is my first comment Juan, you are doing a great job with your channel. Wishing you and your family all the best.
PIA is the lesser problem. The major problem in Pakistan is the 'Oversight Authority' namely the Civil Aviation ... authority (sic !) of Pakistan and the politicians who appointed them.
Thank you very much again for this very informative and neutral but engaged Video! Please keep ongoing this very good work, it makes this channel to one of the best on aviation.
What surprises me? How are they not crashing planes more often? I've heard a lot of these pilots are rich trust fund babies that don't know anything about flying. They pay other people to take their exams. WTF?
Its not that hard to fly modern airliners, as long as there is nothing abnormal and as long as there are enough swiss cheese slices. the hard part is to ensure nothing ever happens.
"Karachi: Regulators have barred Pakistan International Airlines from the European Union for six months after the state-run carrier grounded nearly a third of its pilots for holding fake or dubious licences, officials said Tuesday." Un effing believable.
Up North here we had a parallel problem with driver's licenses, several of our communities were selling them without testing. Needless to say, lives were lost until a Provincial inquiry rectified the situation. I applaud EASA's intervention to bring at least one of the less scrupulous national operator's protocol 'up to snuff'. Thanks for the uploads.
The military runs PIA and they love it! All those lovely perks, free travel for the family, mistress etc. They won't give it up without a fight, that you can be sure of!
Military do not run the PIA. When Military did run the PIA (in 1960s) back then PIA was one of the finest airlines. After 1960s, It again got stability in 1980s (again Military Govt) but ever since 1990s Political Civilians Governments ruined almost every department in the name of "Democracy and PIA was not an exception. Thx.
Anyone who understands Pakistan will not be surprised why successive Prime Ministers allow PIA to be managed by the military mafia. It's to avoid a bullet in the head.
I doubt PIA is the only third country operators that have similar problems. You can re-certify the 737MAX to fly to the moon, but when engulfed in incompetence, it will still crash.
I am a Pakistani and being a frequent traveler want to share a story. I travelled only once in PIA and only once in Airblue. And later started travelling on Gulf Airlines Emirates, Fly Dubai And Airarabia. I can easily say that the our Pakistani pilots even fly planes like "Driving a truck in Mountains with hashish in blood". Means ride isn't smooth and the pitch Angles are high, planes height changes suddenly up and down and body can feel the changing G force. For example, in similar sized Emirates plane you dont even feel the ride because pilots are well trained and have struggled for their position. Now I know how that fake pilot in Karachi managed to destroy a completely fit Airbus 320 plane. It was the same irresponsible piloting that I observed. Being a Pakistani I boycott all pakistani Airlines, purpose is to put some sense into them.
To my knowledge: yes. But PIA does not operate flights to the US, so it is more theoretically a question. The remaining long haule flights of PIA are to destinations in China, Japon and Canada.
