Easy ZELDA-Style Dungeon Design for D&D 

How timely this video! Just last week I was working on an annex to my TTRPG project, about the generation of dungeons based on the dynamics of Zelda, mixed with Jaquaysing. By the way, I would like to know if I could send you this material, I would love to receive your opinions about it. Regards! :)

Absolutely. I don't think perception should ever be used to SEE something unless the thing is hidden!

@@BobWorldBuilder That is a tricky one in TTRPG, there is so much clutter in a vaguely believable world and it has to be there so the players can have fun throwing that half empty beer tankard you didn't describe but that could/should be there at the local mob boss. But there is a huge difference between seeing a collection of strange objects, books, plants, structures that set the tone of the space and identifying this specific one(s) could be used or important the first time you see it. And if the DM always describes only everything that is meant to be important it makes it too easy to meta game for the players, and less fun for the DM - players can find solutions you didn't plan much easier if you don't beat them over the head with the 'official' solution. And describing the entire room full of clutter specifically kills the game pacing. Perception/Investigation checks on the room in general can be a good way for the players to identify specific clues to the mystery or tools to the puzzle more easily and early - shouldn't be the only way though. So for instance long before you get the Hookshot in Ocarina of Time I recall seeing many objects that would turn out to be hookshot capable targets, spent some time trying to figure out why they should be there (but of course failed lacking the tool). But once the tool was there I was prepared to go back and try it on 'em. BUT even if I hadn't noticed in advance just by getting the tool you go through a rather effective tutorial on how to use it as part of that experience. As always its finding the right mix that works for your group - but if the players want to solve puzzles and only solve puzzles you can just go here is the physical prop, a page from one of those Mensa style lateral thinking puzzle books etc - no role-play requirements, or forced limitations based on their character. Right up to the other extreme - perhaps they really want to roleplay their way through it and solve it with only the tools their half blind drunk Captain Sparrow style character can know. So while you will have to give them enough threads to pull on, and eventually let them take a minor success just for hanging around long enough to notice something else to pull on they don't necessarily get everything upfront.

Yeah maybe a good perception role would allow you to find something more hidden or more effective but the standard solution shouldnt be locked behind dice rolls

This doesn't happen in OSR because there is no perception rolls, you just ask what is in the celling and you see what is there.

@@Flopsi99 I was thinking that, too, but for puzzles, it's usually best to assume the players will not think of whatever you think is the most obvious solution.

GMTK is awesome. One of the few channels I watch every video; same with BWB.

I came to say this. Boss Keys is a great analysis of Zelda and Metroid game design

My first instinct was to also direct to GMTK videos.

Whenever I see someone on Reddit indicate they're wanting to run a Zelda inspired game I tend to point them in that direction. Because the dungeon design is probably far more important than the system for getting the Zelda feel right.

Bob even used Mark's terminology: Puzzle Box, Lock & Key, and Gauntlet. I wish Bob cited GMTK, though, 'cause that's not a coincidence.

Darksiders does that as well, it's pretty cool.

Miyamoto design philosophy-great idea to use it in TTRPGs!

Nice! You could have a shaman/priest who appears to Misty Step around the temple. But he always appears on the cult sigils on the floor. In time the party can place themselves at the sigils ready for him to appear and they strike!

It's been a very long time since I have too xD I'm still not sure how I feel about the cutscene approach though

I recommend The Minish Cap for the GBA. Short, easy to play, and a great demonstration zelda's overall design

I love the cut screen method! Fits really well with games like Call of Cthulu too! I like to give a hint at what the opposing faction is doing as a cliffhanger! It's a great mechanic shows use so why not include it in our games? 😃

100%!

This has my brain churning. It turns such encounters into timed puzzles that are combat themed. You can't really make the giant monsters with weak points "standard" because then the players are going to have to struggle against metagaming once they know about the monsters. Though you could make weak point generating tables and such. Good for the BBEGs (bosses) of the adventure/campaign but not so much for just "generic big monster" in a dungeon or random encounter table. I wonder if it could solve the action economy problems that lair and legendary actions also attempt to solve. The PCs can't defeat the boss in one round until they have figured out what the weak points are. Likewise, the boss doesn't have to be SO dangerous that it's likely to TPK if the PCs don't take it out quickly. You would have to telegraph to the player that "this fight is different". Games do it by things like boss music and cutscenes 8) so things in that direction could work. You would need to make the first uses with any particular set of players SUPER obvious to avoid frustration. Personally, I would want the "weak points" to be something outside of normal combat mechanics. However, since those are the things coming to mind 8) combat weak points should just have their own AC (because thinking in DND terms), since DND doesn't have build in called shot rules, and should just need to be hit a specific number of times (once per PC? doesn't have to be hit by all of them, just that number of times). Maybe there are several weak points and you have to spread out the damage some (like Shadow of the Colossus)? Sequential weak points? Can also put weak points into horde encounters in the form of leaders. You don't have to kill the dozens of kobolds, just take out the leaders, who happen to lead from the front 8), and the rest will scatter. The dragon? TERRRIFIED of rust monsters, or crabs, or omelets, or fire. seriously, my brain is just dancing with ideas. I coin a term! GM sniping. It's like nerd sniping but with less math 8)

I love this idea for a boss fight. Needs some thought to make it work though. In DoIP I had the dragon skeleton awaken in the tomb and it was impervious to any attacks save the dragon slayer sword which killed it in one hit. The fighter was pretty pleased with himself for that one!

Smaug

First, I love these videos. They give me such great ideas. Second, a boss fight that operates like a video game can be good but I would warn not to use it too frequently. The players will try and exploit the moment/encounter and the end of each battle/scenario could end with a “oh, is that it?!?” But don’t get me wrong, sometimes that is fun, sometimes.

True! That's another way using the music helps by capturing the feel without needing as much verbal description. Of course you can always try "it's like ___ from Zelda" haha

You're not wrong haha, I do like the idea of the weapon needed to defeat the boss potentially being in the same dungeon.

He did address the dungeon item, though not directly. They are metaphorical keys, since they are required to progress. They are sometimes ALSO the thing you are going to the dungeon to get, making them part of the fetch quests.

Memory tells me that some of those dungeon items are more useful than others. There are some that really feel they are only there to beat the dungeon boss. Whereas some of the early ones really give you a boost. Fairy Slingshot from the Great Deku Tree being a good one. Some the the elemental arrows felt less useful, but I might be mis-remembering.

Hahah, then the party either solves it immediately, or they haven't figured it out 1 hr later xD

Thanks! And that's a great idea for handling the ol' universal dungeon key!

@@BobWorldBuilder Thank you for all of your fantastic videos! And I hope you get to enjoy the latest Zelda game :3

Yeah like anything else, if it comes up every single session, it would wear off pretty quick!

Yup! You can actually bomb into the boss room in the third dungeon (with the awkward map design😅)

I appreciate your enthusiasm! Hope you like it

Oh man!! Missed opportunity xD

This would have been perfect 😂

Tears of the kingdom gives soooo much agency, its stupefying, there's like 15+ different ways you can get past an obstacle, like obviously they put sticks on the ground nearby and a lit torch 15m away for you to carry fire across and there's an unlit torch next to the locked door, but what if i just used a sidekick superpower to summon lightning at the unlit torch, *zelda puzzle sound fanfares*

Also check out GiffyGlyphs Monster Maker!

Updates? I’ve been working on one of my own for many years now, and I always like seeing what other people do in the space!

Same

I think I got into Zelda games simply because I liked Link's look in Smash Bros 64 haha, and yep this was a fun case study! I might do one for Elder Scrolls in the future

@@BobWorldBuilder oh 100% my friends and I would play smash all the time, and I'm pretty sure that was the only way I knew anything about him, and I remember being like, "wait, I thought his name was Zelda?" lol

He's everywhere!

Now I'm just imagining the rolling hallway scene from Inception xD

oh yeah who woudnt be hyped by that, when i get to GM a session, i will also use FF music XD

I like to use gameboy pokemon music hah

Haven't played Skyward Sword, but the water level change has been in a bunch of Zelda games lol xD

Nice!

Protip: make your campaign based on the player characters and their designs and decisions.

Awesome! Hope you like it

Or potentially, it makes any nonlinear dungeon into a linear one lol

Thank you! When he mentioned the dungeon types (Puzzle Box, Lock and Key, and Gauntlet) I was expecting him to mention the Boss Key series.

uhh thats just how youtube works. every niche has a trend and every channel makes the same video on it. theres about 7 channels that talk about this zelda thing for dnd. its not about credit, because its a trend. you cant properly source where the trend comes from, the guy you watched got it from somewhere else just like all these other dnd gurus got theirs from. theyre just popularizing it lol

@@Mico-Xiyeas But it's not a trend. It's plagiarism. The guy I watched worked the concept and developed it through many videos over a significant portion of time years ago.

@@maximelepage7664 Zipperon disney also had about 2+ years ago. just because it was in the past doesnt mean it wasnt a trend.

@@Mico-Xiyeas and the plagiarism "trend" starts from somewhere. And that somewhere is the serie Boss Key from Mark Brown (game makers tool kit) which started 7 years ago. It's a Zelda game analysis and people took his content and transformed it to dnd, which would be fine if he was credited.

@@maximelepage7664 i get that, but my point was you cant always assume thats the case or people were aware of any "origins" to begin with. How many dnd tips have you watched, do you know how much of it is populated everywhere? how can you be so sure any of these origins are their own, some video from 7 years ago, critical role, instead of some 20 year old forum. Trends cycle. to think no one in the world has ever touched on zelda dungeons 7-20 years ago, whether on dnd or took inspiration from an entirely unrelated video or the zelda designers themselves is kind of. not critical and not worth digging into. how many videos talk about session 0 have you ever seen one that credited its 20 year old forum or aware of its origins? whos to say anyone whos heard of the zelda trend even knew there was an originator a decade ago other than the video they had first watched it as of recent years or months. Its not practical. Is not practical to research, especially if you took several sources of inspiration. Not just its "originator" that very likely isnt the first video on it

Obviously you mean "cue," but yeah, I'm not a fan of an audio cue. If it's ongoing, it becomes a fire alarm; if it's over quickly, it's either not immersive or it's not informative. There should definitely be a static change, even if it's not magical in nature.

@@461weavile Nice catch re: queue/cue-- can't believe I did that, lol. I work with chat queues, so I think my brain just auto-filled that spelling.