Edenvale Avro Arrow Feb 2020 

I don't care if the darn thing flyes and that it did ,it represented Canada's finest work !!!!

My family helped build this at the Toronto Aerospace museum. The kids, my wife and I each put in a rivet.

The Arrow is one of Canada's greatest achievements and one of Canada's saddest disappointments.

Proud times in Canada's history, It proved what we were capable of. I'm glad I got to see it fly (I was twelve or thirteen at the time)

My Dad worked on the originals at Avro.

Great tribute to Canadian ingenuity.....just happy it has finally found a permanent home,so all Canadians can go and see it..like the original,it is indeed beautiful....a work of art.

if i was in charge of this tour,o wouldn't gotten a guy who knew stuff about the jet and kicked out all the little kids and the person who's cell phone keeps going off. this rivals the telephone as one of our greatest technological achievements, and this tour makes it as exciting as cloud watching. having said all that, i would still sign up to see it!

So great to see this wonderful Arrow model has found a new home. My wish is this one is permanent. I had the great fortune volunteering to help build this at the start of the project for just a short time. The inner right wing was my assignment but life happened and couldn't help for longer than a few weeks. So many great people involved in the project and it was a such an honour to be involved.

I just happened across this video. My grandfather was a technician developing the Iroquois engine. I live 20 minutes away from Edenvale. I can’t wait to see the model. Thank-you!

Incredible effort recreating this model at full scale. Forever Canada's lost opportunity.

Reading some of these comments shows that the US is not alone in having people disconnected from reality, spouting iron clad opinions about things they know very little. The Arrow was a highly specialized aircraft, no the mission pods doesn't change that fact, no other nations had any interest in purchasing it, all the other major powers had mach 2 interceptors in the works. The prototypes were essentially handbuilt with substantial differences between them, there was no pool of spares available to keep them flying. No, it was not a US plot because they felt threathened. No, it was not the greatest plane ever built. No, one of them is not sitting in a barn somewhere, ready to defend Canada. Yes, Canadian aircraft industry took a big hit, but this project would have been a millstone around the neck of the country had it not been stopped completely and irrevocably. Diefenbaker made the right call, history has proven that. I was a docent at TAM for several years, even made a few small parts of that replica, and we sure had to deal with some opinionated peope regarding the Arrow.

it nice that they found a home for it I was a Volunteer at the Toronto Aerospace Museum i help built this full scale replica of the Arrow!!!

You can also research all of the other high speed aircraft that were being designed at the same time. Two by North American, and one by the British were also cancelled. XF-108 Rapier, XB-70 Valkyrie cancelled in 1959 like the Avro Arrow and the BAC TSR-2 which was cancelled in 1965. It's a shame we Canadians are taught this conspiracy that we had the only aircraft design capable of these high performance specs and the bad American cousins were so jealous of it they had to shut it down. Also research 2 high speed airliners under development in the U.S. (announced by Kennedy) with billions thrown at the US companies: Boeing 2707 and Lockheed L-2000. They were also cancelled. Sometimes physics, metallurgy and economics kick the concepts to the dust bin. The survivors were the Concorde (much slower than the U.S. requirements given by Kennedy), and the SR-71, which is made of heavy titanium to deal with the heat, and has gaps in the body so there is room for metal to expand. The Avro Arrow was a great accomplishment for Canada, and Avro Canada's demise a great loss for Canadian aerospace development, but the other parts of the story are just anti-American sentiment (a core part of the Canadian identity).

I still think this is about the best fighter jet ever designed.

Plane is beautiful, but dude is NOT a public speaker! The stories behind the plane and why it was actually cancelled seem like an Area 51 movie. Would be cool to see a "stealth" version of this beast!

Beautiful plane !!!

It's amazing they called it a fighter interceptor when it's huge size was more like an F111 OR A B25 BOMBER

.........and still mind boggling today ! That was and still is one impressive piece aircraft ! To even think it would be hard to beat even by today's jets is out of this world !

The Arrow is a HUGE plane. Very role specific. Twice as long as an F35/F18

One unmentioned byproducts of this cancellation is that many of the brains behind the Arrow were "collected" by Nasa and others to be pivotal players in the Apollo missions. For engineers at the time it was much more fun to work on fighters than rockets. I have seen sketches of a Mach 3 less boxy follow on version, it looked decades ahead of its time. Sad day of cancellation for Deif to go hide in a bunker. A loss to days past, current times and the future of Canadian aviation.

My dad worked on this program at Orenda in the late fifties and my mom in the office also. They went to work one morning and the doors were locked. It was over. My dad was so upset about this for years after.

What a beautiful aircraft!..

Nicely done Mike.

Here are some excerpts from the recent Palmiro Campagna book: The Avro Arrow, For the record”. ====> “It is readily apparent that the cost of the Arrow was not the driving factor in the cancellation.” The book is about 270 page long so it is best for you to read the whole book to get the competent picture. The following quotes are to wet your appetite for more... Summary points: The book is NOT the personal opinion of the author. Everything in the book he is quoting from official government documents. The book starts off with Campagna explaining how he was able to find so many secret documents about the Arrow which at first, there seemed to be a only a small file folder of information available in the National Archives of Canada. For example, he would look for specific reference to other DND/NORAD projects such as documents pertaining to American Air Defence from 1946 to 1961. He also explains part of the process of using access to information requests to obtain documents. Recent “Arrow model” at Canadian Air and Space Museum in Ottawa” is not an Arrow model. The whole shape is wrong. It is just a generic delta shape. Some images are shown. Arrow was NOT cancelled due to high costs. Please see documents in his book about this. Highly unlikely that an Arrow as saved. Jet Engines and air frames are NOT universally compatible. An airframe must be designed for its intended engine. If the engine design is changed/replaced, then the design for the air frame must also change to take into account any size and weight difference. RCAF proposed three different engines for the Arrow. This meant that the Arrow airframe had to be changed each time. This caused delays and increased costs in development. Note item “B” below: Quote from page 90: “ The Chiefs of Staff in February 1957 reported to the Government that, while the technical development of the aircraft was continuing satisfactorily, the programme had been slipping in time and increasing in cost … Increased costs were due to the following: A. Astra has required more electrical power and cooling than planned. B. Adjustments to design of the aircraft for these two engines [J75 and Iroquois] has consumed more time and cost than estimated. C. Iroquois engine development has been so satisfactory that it will shift into a phase of higher expenditure than expected. D. CF-100 Aircraft production rate has been stretched out at the factory, which throws overhead on the CF-105. E. Substantial increases have occurred in wage rates and costs of materials…. On 7 February 1957 the Government approved the continuation of the development programme, limited to 8 aircraft, at a cost of $216 million” Was the Arrow that good? Starting quote on Page 30 “When Aviation Week reports on the fighter's rollout, in October 1957, the magazine called it ‘a serious contender for the top military aircraft of the next several years’. High praise indeed , for the non-U.S. aircraft, given that the XB-58 supersonic bomber was in flight test and that new aircraft in the works including the A-5 Vigilante and the F-4 Phantom … But the Arrow was extraordinary … [the] CF-105 was a different kettle of fish entirely … [It was] extraordinary, and more so, given that the industry that produced it was less than a decade old when the prototype contract was issued in march 1955…. the performance requirements meant that almost everything on the airplane had to be invented. 2 Author Bill Sweetman. Now in the same online article Sweetman asks, “would it have worked” 3. For the answer, he turns to the words of the late aviation guru and fellow of the Royal Aeronautical Society Bill Gunston, who was technical editor of Flight in the 1950s, a magazine that also carried an article hailing the engineering advances of the Arrow. Calling him a “shrewd reader of programs” he states that Gunston believed it would have worked. This was certainly being proven by the Flight testing. Continuing on top of page 31: In his book from 1976, Bill Gunston noted the following: In 1958, when the first CF-105 flew, it was by a wide margin the most advanced fighter in the world. In its airframe, avionics, weapons and - by no means least -- flight performance it set standards which nothing else actually built in the West could rival until today’s F-14 and F-15 (except for Kelly Johnston’s Blackbird YF-12A, which is not so much a fighter as a research aircraft). 4 These are extraordinary statements by an expert. Bill Sweetman’s online article referred to the American F-4 Phantom. Some have argued that this plane, which went into service in the early sixties, was far superior to the Arrow, yet Sweetman notes that it was the Arrow that was extraordinary. It must be remembered that the Arrow and the Phantom were designed for different purposes: The Arrow for interception of incoming high-altitude bombers but with a weapons bay that could be configured for other missions, including reconnaissance, and the Phantom which was as multi role fighter. Did the RCAF want the aircraft produced here in Canada to give Canada an advantage. Yes. Start of quote on Page 36. “ The RCAF noted that an acceptable means for comparing engines was to look at the thrust produced per pound of engine weight. Initially designated the the PS13, the Iroqoius was rated at 20,000 pounds per thrust. This exceeded the ratings of the J75 and the RB.106 by more than 50%. The RCAF decided this engine would likely be the only one available in time to provide the power necessary for the Arrow to achieve all of its performance requirements. Later numbers would quote 19,50 pounds dry thrust and 25,6000 pounds with afterburner and a weight of 4,8000 pounds. Given the engines advanced state of design, the RCAF also noted that there was no advantage to procuring another engine offshore and building it under licence. Of particular note is the comment in a memo dated February 25, 1955, which stated, “The advantages of expending this money and effort in Canada rather than in another country places the PS13 engine in a very favourable light. 12 This is interesting given that when the fate of the Arrow was being discussed years later one of the arguments put forward to defend the cancellation of the program was that it made better sense to purchase a complete aircraft offshore, an argument that completely ignored the advantage of keeping the development in Canada.” End of quote on page 37.

ARROW >>>>>> I love you so much with all of my heart !!!! :o))

They found an Iroquois engine in store in the UK MOD inventory, It is now in Ontario Canada and I hope it will be reassembled and tested one day. search youtube for more on this..

My dad was a foreman in final assembly, when this project was scrapped a part of my dad died.

My wife’s uncle worked on these engines. He said they were many applications for there use including a version to power the generators on Canada’s railway engines. He said politics were involved and another supplier won the contract.

This is the only full scale model of the Arrow which I know of, probably the only one in existence. Didn't even know this existed until I came across this video on You Tube. Now that I know of it I'll go and see it once this pandemic dies down to where we can do such things again. As a boy, I had a model of the Arrow, but left it behind when I moved away from home in Nova Scotia for a job in Ontario in the mid 1960s and it probably was eventually thrown out. This full scale model is well done and gives a sense of how far advanced the Arrow was over anything which other countries produced at the time. My personal opinion is that the US saw it as a threat to their military-industrial production and moved to discourage Canada from producing and selling it to other nations because they could not compete with it at that time. There is the possibility that the same design could be flying still, with upgraded electronics of course. In speed it would still be competitive with planes such as the F-18 and some of the fastest Russian military aircraft, and with upgrades it would no doubt be even faster than the original version. Most of those who had worked on the project ended up employed with US aerospace companies. My wife's uncle worked at Dowty in Ajax which made some of the parts. You may have noticed their name on the landing gear. Britain developed an aircraft in the mid 1960s, 10 years later than the Arrow, which had similar characteristics, even very similar appearance, but it too was abandoned due to a change of government. No point crying over spilt milk as they say, but it is good that there is actually a full-scale model in existence which can at least help people understand those times. Having grown up in the continuously interesting 1950s and 60s which culminated in the moon landings, I sometimes feel that we've lost momentum and even lost ground in many ways, and I don't mean in technology but in purpose for living and motivation for improvement. More historical information on A. V. Roe and the Arrow project would increase interest for visitors to Edenvale.

Like the TSR2 in the UK, unfortunately technological development rapidly advances causing strategic development changes. The Avro was a good story at the time and really good to see this replica.

A beautiful bird

I've often wondered what it would cost to make a fully functional reproduction of the aircraft, with the engines. Would be great for Canadian Pride.

Amazing aircraft..pure ingenuity.

Deiffenbakers biggest debacle-cancelling the greatest plane ever made to date.

The US was afraid we would compeat with them

Understanding the extreme size of the aircraft for it's day, it's rather interesting that the Orenda engine was not adopted anywhere either. It had extra power over the Pratts and GE's at the time.

I went there back in August, she's still a beauty, even if she's only a replica. Maybe one day we'll get to see her successors fly.

Awesome to see it as a model!

Beautiful!! they put her back together(she's really RL206, parts thereof, never flew) I have photographs when she was on display at Keele and Sheppard, Toronto museum(now ice rink) nice job guys!! Oh, that wasn't Pearson. That was Diefenbaker who caved in to the Americans in the process throwing 15000 people out of work. The engineers ignored his 'destroy everything' order and hid the various blueprints for later fabrication. The cockpit and landing gear are RL206. I put $2. in the fund jar for the rebuild so I have more than a sentimental interest.

so thats where it ended up!! Awesome. Needs a viewing paltform about 20 feet up to get a better look at this beauty

My dad Joe Corrigan was a crew chief on the iroqous engine .He didn't talk much about but when he did sure had some interesting stories.

The exhibitor mentioned that three thousand employees had lost their jobs. The actual number with sub contractors is fourteen thousand.

Day after my birthday last year, looks like it was made for 2021. Way ahead of it's time.

In November 2020 we stopped at the airport to eat at the restaurant there. Not knowing that the Avro was there on display. The hanger wasn’t open to see the plane and I definitely want to return to see it. By the way the restaurant at the airport was a great place to eat great food.

So great to see that the model is back on display. Imagine if those birds were not scrapped, but instead were locked away and then released to live on as testaments to the skill and ambitions required. No, instead, they were literally obliterated, after all of that effort and expense... what a travesty. :(

If you look closely at the pictures of the Arrow's being dismantled RL206 is missing. It was the only Arrow that had the iroquois engine installed. Anyone who was in Orangeville or Fort Drum NY were woken up in the middle of the night to a super sonic boom, RL206 was never seen again. So yes one did escape the chopping block.

What a shame this was scrapped, had a lot of potential, just like our TSR2 in the UK. Why did they have to scrap both planes entirely? 😔

Man ,wouldn't it be something if the Ministry of Defense decided to restart the project with some upgrades!!!

I worked at Orenda

The Lancaster mentioned... FM-104?

This was not a bomber as he said but a fighter aircraft. This is a scaled down replica. Original size replica used in the Avro mini-series can be seen at Reynold's Museum in Wetaskiwin, Alberta.

Rumor is that one was saved and flown away. Today it is said it survives in an underground space in Kingston ON. Just a rumor. Cool.

The Elusive Arrow, in her native habitat. A Museum.

What the problem was that when they went threw the sound barrier that had to fly it differently

This should be in Ottawa, museum.

As I remember from reading and watching documentaries on the Arrow, the reason they were all destroyed was that Dief signed an agreement that Canada would not develop a standalone weapons system like the Arrow again, but would buy from the US or other NATO countries, leaving the warplane industry to the Americans. It basically ruined the future of our aerospace industry other than some passenger planes and making components for the US. I have the original Xeroxed copy of the Arrow plans that were kept in the "Diefenbunker". Someone who worked there saw the tube in the trash when they de-commissioned it and found the plans inside, so took it home and I purchased it through a friend a few years back.

can the public stop in and see

All the staff went south and one plane disappeared to the U.S. [alledgedly ]

Where are all the MASKS?????

We could have been one of the leaders in fighter jet construction. And who knows maybe even commercial passenger jets.

That's great that they were able to reproduce a mock-up. But umm, the speaker could be better

I dont know if there is some pilots of this airplane still alive. Could be interesting to have a pilot look.

welp.. if some how they chose to make the Arrow Avrow but the modern project called Avro Supeur Arrow or something like that, it would be super cool.. but for now i hope theywill choose the SAAB Gripen. It's better the this fucking expensive F35..

WOW great project and very well done. Beautiful airplane Reading the comments mom taught me if you haven't got anything good to say shut up. Just saying. Hope to see it someday

It's always break my heart even in 2021 thinking that Canada would built his own interceptor and not depend to other country. Even worse to see that the Soviets built the Mig25 Foxbat with technology stolen from Avro. Look at the striking similarities in the look and performance of the two planes. When you're born for a bun...

Should be a lesson for Canadian history. They could of kept it for Canada's use. Seeing that they had it already built. The use of it may have also changed the allies views down the road. If not Canada would also not have depended on any other country for military purposes.

To bad the government screwed us Canadians ! The greatest jet built, ahead of its time! We people lost the best, the politicians threw us under the bus! shame, shame, will never forget this mess. a terrible time for all this loss! Grandpaw, Oles.

With the trs2 our two countries had the best planes never to progress past the research stage.

And for fun... ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-fKXDrcFRKyY.html

Shame that that tour guide is so darn long-winded and monotonous, doesn't seem to know anything at all about the Arrow's armament and capabilties and flatly ignores a young lady with her hand up to ask a question.

Gee it was a big plane, wasn't it?

Interceptor??? It's the size of a B1B lancer lol

The plane didn't bomb anything, but he did. Whatta bore.

now, how about another movie, or a series....why not?

Avro Arrow First Flight 40th Anniversary 1998 . ___This is a VHS camera recording (totally unedited, and without titles) of the 40th Anniversary celebrations of the First Flight of the Avro Arrow which was held at the Constellation Hotel in Toronto on March 21, 1998. The event starts with a display of Avro Arrow artifacts, and then the event moves into a ballroom for a formal dinner with speeches. Many key members of the team that built and flew the Avro Arrow are present including test pilot Janusz Zurakowski, and Engineer Jim Floyd. Hear the truth from those who were there. Listen to Floyd talk about who is the best source on the Arrow. And hear about Jim Floyd's negotiations to fly 3 completed Avro Arrows to England after the Arrow program was terminated in Canada. This is probably the only full length video that was made of this event. Michael Kostiuk in Ottawa ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kjTFQW0OnF8.html

The Arrow was an interceptor not a fighter. It was role specific designed to protect our sovereignty over our vast territory. Very fast and able to carry heavy weapons and a large fuel load. Until another Arrow type is built and utilized Canada will show the world great vulnerability. In these dangerous times when Russia is undermining the Western World showing our vulnerability is foolish and very dangerous. We need to smarten up very quickly. It makes no sense to use fighters for the role of the interceptor! Building an Arrow type should be a national priority.

Wow

Seems that this project as well as our TSR2 both were scuppered due to political pressure by the US. Both amazing planes that we never got to see enter service. Credit to the people who painstakingly made this replica. Incidentally, some unfair comments about the tour guide - how easy is it to carry on explaining about the aircraft when people and their kids are constantly talking loudly?!!

Distracting sound in the background spoiled the video.

Make Canada Great Again

I like wenn they come with kids and start making big noise!!!

Biggest most expensive model ever?

This is Canada's biggest conspiracy theory or fallacy story. The truth is that the Avro Arrow flies to this day but it is called a MiG25. . The CIA discovered that the KGB had totally infiltrated the Avro Arrow development and realised that the Soviets were actually building the Avro themselves. Hence the Canadian program had to be stopped immediately. The Soviets built their Avro with a few modifications (2 tales for example), but it was built. In 1976 a Soviet pilot defected to Japan in a MiG25. The captured MiG25 was stripped down and to their horror, the US intelligence found that, to the tiniest details, the Avro had in deed been copied. The Soviets even used the same bolt spacing from the original drawings. . Now the USA was faced with the reality that a VERY high performance aircraft was now in service, by their enemy. The Americans then went about having to develop an aircraft that could outperform the Avro/MiG 25 in every way...... the F15 was born. . As for the story on how the Avro programme was stopped, you can imagine, no one (at the time) wanted to talk about how the Avro program was totally infiltrated by the KGB. I'm sure patriotic Canadians will feel insulted, and as a Canadian myself, all I can say is, sorry for the insult.

Find someone who really KNOWS the aircraft. Or can speak with more passion It was a marvel of engineering Check out the Concorde. It’s all Canada

Still one of the originals is missing.............

Wish they woulda shut that kid up

Just another time the Canadian government buckled to US pressure. This aircraft was far superior to anything worldwide, and way ahead of its time. The F-101 Voodoo we ended up with wasn’t half as good as the Arrow. Interesting fact ..... after much research, only 5 are actually documented as being destroyed. What happened to #6?

on paper it was able to go in to orbit

my dad was directly involved with this program and before he died he told me the REAL reasons the program was crushed and showed me a copy of the letter written to dieffenbakers' office from a certain member of the US government .... even AV didnt know the truth till much later...

Canadas Shame. We Failed.

Losing the Arrow was a good thing, far better than Americans coming over to take over for their own security.

Canadian government should remake arrow plane

One of Canada's worst mistakes the plane would still be flying today and that is fact only if politics wasn't involved we're not even allowed to develop nothing because we signed that agreement with the United States we can't

Some tremendously annoying kids in the back. Bad that those parents don't raise their kids when someone is telling them something to be quieter. I used to not have to get it into my head to be so nasty when someone is telling something.😒

Демиан

Where did that volunteer got his information. He should look at the historical facts of the ARROW. When you listen to him, it's clear it sounds boring. The reality, is when the Liberal lost the election at the time, the new government with the influence of the US President visiting, decided to cancel the Arrow, that gave the black friday in 1959. Avro tried to same one element of the project the Oranda Iroquoi turbine engine, the French was interested to use it for their own fighters. But since the new governement said no even it they had the opportunity to get some money back of this investment, they choose to scrap the whole project. Now the CF-105 Arrow was a fighter interceptor, not a bomber like this volunteer said a few times. That plane was ahead of this time for a second generation fighter in the new jet age. It had fly by wire controls, internal weapons bay for a 1950's fighter, and the Iroquoi engine that was the supercruise engine of the time. and not only that, they solved the riddle of delta wings many years before the birth of the Concord. Just imagine if they had left the project get to completion, The Canadian Aerospace industry would be in the top leading manufacturer then, and now (today). But no because of the stupidity of the governement of the time, all the best brains of the industries left to work in that states. Just imagine the same thing happened in recent years with Bombardier giving for free the C-Series to Airbus. And now in 2021, we are still waiting to choose for the tye of fighters to replace the CF-18, And the answer by the gocernement was to by second hand F/A-18 from Australia Air Force. That we could say we are a complete joke to the world. And at the current price many of the world fighters are sold, we can't even afford to buy these. The best option would be to build our own version or buy still a 4.5 generation fighter and forget any 5th gen fighter and don't even think for a 6th gen fighter.

At the time this plane was so much more advanced than any else,which is why the Americans forced the Canadian govt to scrap it.The only piece of one of the original planes is a nose cone which is in the Ottawa Air Museum.

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