Edison DD Record on Victor 10-50 Orthophonic Victrola

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How does an Edison Diamond Disc sound through an Orthophonic Horn? This has been the certifiable wet dream of any serious Edison -phile. : )
While at the time there were several after market solutions available to fit an Edison compatible soundbox to a Victrola, the most convincing solution was the Brunswick Ultona soundbox, whose Edison side mimicked the construction of an Edison reproducer.
Now here you have an example - an experiment of mine that I did a few years ago. I took an Ultona soundbox and made it to fit into the tonearm of an Orthophonic Victrola. Originally I started out with the Brunswick mica diaphragm, which sounded great, but exhibited some damaging resonances. So the next step was to refit the reproducer with an orthophonic diaphragm. Not the quantum leap that I expected, but it increased the treble details of the reproduction, while not doing much in terms of additonal bass response.
The 1927 Victor Automatic Orthophonic Victrola 10-50 has the largest and highest fidelity horn of any home Victrola ever produced in the USA.
• CHARLESTON Sweet Georg...
What I am playing in this demo:
Edison ACOUSTIC Diamond Disc 51177-L
Ritzi Mitzi - Foxtrot
Dave Kaplan Melodists, an Edison Studio Band
1923.05.17NYC
This side is one of the greatest sounding Edison records.
Edison Electric Diamon Disc 52321-L
Ida! sweet as apple cider - One-step
Winegar's Penn Boys
1928.05.04 NYC
Recorded with the new RCA recording equipment.
My only electric DD, rather worn and with a skip - my apologies.
A word to the recording:
Recorded straight from the 10-50 with no additional manipulations other than volume level.
The electric DD is significantly less loud than the acoustic.
I have elevated the volume to +3dB. Most distortions you hear on the acoustic DD are digital artifacts, most on the electric DD are wear.
So, what do I think of this experiment of the 10-50 horn vs an Edison machine:
- there is some bass boost, but it is not that impressive. On the electric DD bass sounds a little muddy.
It brings the usually faint piano accompaniment forward, and reveals bass lines that you did not know were there. While I consider the improvement minor, it does bring a full body to voices and acoustic violin, which changes the violin tone from saccharine to full-bodied.
- The biggest change I hear is an amazing increase in treble detail: Cymbals, clarinet overtones, trumpet, violins all acquire a richness in detail which I only know from some pre-1910 European recordings. This I consider the greatest achievement.
- With the 10-50 horn, which is very good at thia, you get a great increase at presence: You start to hear the room acoustics, instruments step forward and create the rich tapestry of a staggered soundstage.
The reasons why I call this an experiment and not a solution, are the following:
- Even with the Orthophonic diaphragm, there are still some resonances in the system. The are sonically slight, but may physically damage the record via feed-back.
- As is known from the original Brunswick Ultona, while it sounds marvellous, it is rather rough on records. Brown spots under bright light appear fairly soon when played with this set up.
- On records like pop and dance, where not much treble detail is necessary, the Edisonic Phonograph delivers a performance that comes quite close to the 10-50. It's in part due to the horn of the Edisonic Beethoven, which develops a pseudo bass through internal reflections which actually sounds quite impressive.
- Without the worm gear, if you slightly mishandle the reproducer, it will skid across the record, leaving a permanent scratch.
For me, since the Edisonic Beethoven (developed by Edison for Electric Diamond Discs)
video: • YES! WE HAVE NO BANANA...
was good enough, I never further pursued the 10-50 diamond reproducer.
Here are some suggestions for further investigation:
- String & Weight gantry to counteract the skating force.
- Exploring modifications of the Mica diaphragms by using different gasket materials, and adding weights to the center (like the Edison whalefish bone cone)
- Experimenting with ways of the orthophonic diaphragm spider and gaskets to dampen unwanted frequencies
- Trying out different materials for the string ( silk, polyethylene, or metal re-inforced woven silk).
To see an Edisonic Beethoven and a Victor 10-50 record changer in their proper function,
check out more great tunes and amazing vintage phonographs at My RU-vid Videos:
/ sanfranphono
More about this and other machines
on my Changer Website
myvintagetv.com....

Опубликовано:

10 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 63

@earlnut 13 лет назад

You know, what so much of this shows is how well designed the diamond disk machine really was right from it's very beginning. If you have a good diaphragm in a diamond disk machine they really do a a good job of reproducing the music. Edison did experiment with aluminum diaphragms and even did some experimenting with larger horns and all of that, but it really didn't improve things all that much. It does sound a lot better than I would have expected with one of those Brunswick reproducers!

@sanfranphono 15 лет назад

Hello to Reading! glad you found my videos, I have been enjoying yours. I shall put a video of a straight soundbox playing Edisons soon. Stay posted. Cheers from San Francisco.

@jeeprod1 Год назад

I was fascinated by your experiment. I have always felt that one of the shortcomings of Edison's later machines was that there was no easy way get a bigger horn on anything. With some spare time and some homemade crane parts, I put a big 12 panel cygnet horn on an Amberola 30, and it sounded great. I did the same thing with a big horn on a Gem!. You can play a Diamond Disc on a modern turntable and amplifier only to realize that the sound put into the record was always greater than the machine's ability to reproduce.

@sanfranphono 15 лет назад

Oh Moo, there is a special place in Edison Hell for people playing DDs with the Ultona, I know. As you probably know from playing DDs on a modern turntable, the bass can be all over the place, but usually they seem to emphasize the mid-range and treble with rather subdued bass, even when compared to acoustic Victrola records. Cheers,

@gmmix 13 лет назад

Very enlightening! Your commentary is splendid. Thanks for taking the time to educate us. A 5-star presentation.

@BURKECOUNTYSKYHAWK 12 лет назад

That is an amazing piece of equipment All I done was turn my needle on my british made 78 turn table sideways a little and i could hear the tune so I new there was music on the disk,It was not clear at all so I took the entire arm off and tryied that no better so i taped the arm on and put it sideways and i could hear the tune a little louder,was not clear,but it worked a little.So i put my stereo back together and looked on enternet 4 the two records i have and found u all Thanks 4 bein there.

@gmmix 5 лет назад

I can appreciate the time you devote to produce your comprehensive commentaries. Very enlightening! Thank you!

@luismantaras6460 6 лет назад

Remarkable machine, the surface noise doesn't bother and indeed the bass sound is increased. congratulations and thanks for shearing! Ida is a beautiful song!

@sanfranphono 12 лет назад

I hear these arguments a lot, but believe me when I say that the Edisonic Beethoven (arguably the loudest Edison DD machine with the widest frequency range ) produced a strong and pleasing sound, but could not even get close to the orthophonic Credenza next to it when it came to impact, fidelity and loudness. For comparison, play any G&T record of De Lucia and Huguet or the Original Dixiend Jazz Band's Tiger rag on a Victor Credenza next to your best Edison machine, and you will see my point.

@sanfranphono 13 лет назад

@earlnut Not quite my impression - and I heard them in person. First - my point of reference was the Edisonic, not the Edison DD phonograph. There is quite a difference between the two, and Theodore Edison realized that a bigger horn gives better sound. Then, the new set up gives you a much better treble clarity - Edison diaphragms are rather muffled ("mellow in E's parlance). Edison DDs are low volume and have weak bass, so yes for what Edison discs are the Edison Phonograph is adequate.

@MisterTalkingMachine 12 лет назад

I love the second record!!

@sanfranphono 15 лет назад

Yes and no - Pathe was the first one to use sapphire style on records in 1905, but Edison used sapphire styli on cylinders back in the 1890s. Steel needles on shellac records was a perfectly fine solution. Edison's incompatible Diamond Disc machine of 1912 played records with very high pressure, so that he needed a diamond stylus, but also records made from hard bakelite to withstand the diamond. Diamonds are fiddly and can break or chip if you are not careful.

@SubTroppo Год назад

Reminds me, I watched Michael Fremer setting up a hugely expensive record deck on RU-vid; talk about fiddly! I've set up a deck myself, but not to that degree. To get the best out of records it is always fiddly, and then there is the static & dust! In the UK we had the Dust Bug but I imagine there were many earlier similar "solutions".

@luismantaras6460 6 лет назад

Very interesting demo and music as well! Thank you very much and congratulations for your device.

@gmmix 15 лет назад

Kudos for taking the time and trouble to produce the result heard here. FASCINATING! While I have a Brunswick with the Ultona, I've only ever played a Diamond Disc once with it. As you note, there is some degree of damage with each and every playing. Your commentary is very informative. Thanks again for your obvious efforts. FIVE STARS!

@MichaelJHuman 13 лет назад

Wow that looks like it was an expensive model. I had not seen one like that before with the very large horn. Very cool.

@sanfranphono 15 лет назад

You would rip an LP record apart. These Victrolas are designed for very hard records made from shellac. Cheers

@maxinDetroit 14 лет назад

interesting-years ago waltrip made me an adfaptor to play Pathe (vertical ) on ortho--damamged and gone but much like this idea... really neat video max

@ThePhonographStop 5 лет назад

Sounds good!!! I would be interested in hearing an electrically recorded Edison disc on that setup!

@ThePhonographStop 5 лет назад

Nice demo! You should try an Edison electrically recorded disc and see how it sounds!

@mukke67 14 лет назад

a great video ..a great player

@tyroneepps3018 3 года назад

I 👍 the double play 🎶

@sanfranphono 14 лет назад

@merrihew Yep, it's smoother and has more definition. Also, the recording is much more spatial. Small bass increase. For all extents and purposes, the Edisonic Beethoven does a job that's very close. Replaced the spider - needed it for another project, and replaced it with a stiffened cone. Same difference, possibly the cone is stiffer and gives you a little more treble.

@doctorgoldbud1321 Год назад

I have a Columbia that has a similar set up on the part where you put the needles I have one that has three different tips one's a diamond till turn it sideways rotates has two different needles it has a wonderful sound to it

@sanfranphono 14 лет назад

The big horn of the 10-50 helps, but Edison had excellent acoustic records up to 1927. I do not get from the electric DDs the full sound that you get from an orthophonic. Bass is not appreciably bigger, only the treble has a little more detail. See if you can find someone to play you a couple of electrics on an Edisonic Phonograph. Check out my Video of Edisonic, you note I play a late acoustic since it's more impressive than the electric.

@Moooperator 15 лет назад

Oh Sanfran, you'll go to phono hell over this one! Bless your heart for all the time you put in this excellent experiment. So, how many DD will fit on the Changer? LOL From a guess before you played a DDI would have thought the bass would have been more enhanced over treble...

@merrihew 14 лет назад

I have a clean copy of this record which I have just played on an Edison machine and then listened again to yours. Its an especially good sounding Edison anyway, but the orthophonic reproduction is smoother with less rumble. Same with the electric. Do you think removing the spider makes much difference? What are you using for a microphone?

@madbear3512 6 лет назад

Holy shit that record player is huge. I would love to have one but I don't have the room. How much did it cost new back in 1927. What else can it play

@sanfranphono 15 лет назад

Hello Check out my video of the Edisonic Beethoven - the miking is not as great, but that was Edisons phonograph for electric records. At the end, Edison issued two famous Electrola (electronically amplified) phonographs, the C-1 and C-2, which had a unique dual head pick-up for lateral and DD records. Glad you liked it. Cheers

@Bigband78 10 лет назад

Sounds GREAT to me.Loved the reproduction of the electric record.When I moved 7 years ago I dumped my 10-50.That machine must have weighed a 1/2 ton.

@janettewalker3991 10 лет назад

Fascinating. Love learning of these old machines and listening.

@butchfoot 14 лет назад

wonder how it would sound with one of the Edison 52000 electrics??

@butchfoot 14 лет назад

HI, listened to the second record this time, sounds great!!! Have never been an Edison fan but these sound great, may change my mind. I have Edison skinneys and they are ok but not as good as Columbia or Victor in my estimation though.

@dannyasher3259 6 лет назад

Would love to own one of these reproducers for my Victrola.

@johnjames4213 Год назад

I believe the Edison diamond disks were 81rpm so the tempo would be slightly slower on a 78prof machine than recorded. I suppose you could adjust the speed control to compensate.

@doctorgoldbud1321 Год назад

This is absolutely mind-blowing is there a diamond tip does it have three different needles can you rotate the part that holds the needle in it

@sanfranphono 14 лет назад

The second record is electric. Never been a fan of the electric DDs, don't seem to sound that much better. But then this is based on a sample size 3 : )

@spannerworks1 15 лет назад

If I am getting this right Edison was using stylus technology well before others who were still using needles made of steel? Regards Richard

@omegafilmcorporation 6 лет назад

Sorry for the late comment, but yes they do use stylus technology for the Edison Diamond Disc phonograph. Quite ahead of it's time when you ask me. Same with the cylinder phonograph, which also uses stylus technology. Like for example a sapphire and diamond stylus! It never wears out like the gramophone needles do. It lasts forever!! :)

@ikonix360 8 лет назад

The way the record drops after being rejected does it harm or have the potential to harm the record?

@sanfranphono 8 лет назад

+jmcinvale I did it just for the shock value : ) The drawer was empty, and it dropped on about 7/4" of dense felt. I would not drop a second DD on the first one. The system works perfectly with lateral 78s however.

@sanfranphono 14 лет назад

@riqzster hey, it's the only way. To flange an Edison DD, you would need to modify the tone arm quite a bit. Not going to do that for a little experiment. Unless you go the Pathe way and use a diamond stylus in a pathe style soundbox, as I did in my video: Rachmaninoff Edison vs Victor - should be in the side bar, or check in my channel. Cheers

@sanfranphono 14 лет назад

@riqzster Yeah kindof - with a machine shop you could modify an Edison soundbox to play on a victrola - but way too much work. I;ll leave that to someone else .... : )

@sophietucker4159 8 лет назад

Hello Sanfranphono-I'm attempting to do the same thing with my 1925 orthophontic credenza and the same Brunswick sound box, the only questions-exactly which and where did you purchase the orthoponic diaphragm, and does it have a spider, because from what I can see it doesn't look like it does. The other question is-lol-- how the hell did you ever connect it!!?? I'm new at this and had one hell of a time getting the old sound box apart let alone putting this back together please help if you can-- thanks waiting with great anticipation and excitement! ps-I don't care if the second record is worn-Love it, reminds me of BIX

@nacho66662000 2 года назад

looks like a brunswick ultona single side reproducer, not from a victrola. Now that i saw the whole video .The sound box looks like the edison side of the double sided ultona with the lateral cut - pathe side removed .

@5botball 15 лет назад

can you put newer records on it?

@danielguevara9023 4 года назад

"Chale, es de que tá rechido"

@audiophile1024 3 года назад

I thoroughly enjoyed the video. I know you only ejected the first record for the video, but it still made me cringe, because DD records are so fragile. I really like the idea of playing a DD record with an orthophonic reproducer.

@robfriedrich2822 8 лет назад

Was it a Pathe stylus?

@sanfranphono 8 лет назад

No, a straight diamond stylus. Pathe styli are potentially larger, but could be tried-

@sanfranphono 15 лет назад

Define new? the machine will play records made before the LP, that's up to 1950, though works best with records before 1935. Carsten

@sanfranphono 13 лет назад

@TheRiqzster Check my video Rachmaninoff C# Minor Prelude and the video Pathe Hallelujah for an answer ...

@robfriedrich2822 8 лет назад

You played a Long Play?

@sanfranphono 8 лет назад

Nah, you know that LP's skip like mad, without a wormgear this would be a very bad idea. Cheers

@robfriedrich2822 8 лет назад

So it's usual to get up to 8 minutes per side?

@sanfranphono 8 лет назад

No, those are 2x4minute sides. On an Edison DD the max is almost 5 mins per 10" side

@sanfranphono 15 лет назад

the C-1 and C-2 are both tube amplified radio phonographs. If you go to myvintagetv dot c o m click on consoles, the C-1 is right at the top. Cheers

@5botball 15 лет назад

I mean relatively new. those are edison records. I mean like a beetles record

@BURKECOUNTYSKYHAWK 12 лет назад

Yea 1 more thing Im tired Goin 2 bed Up all nite messin with that turntable ,hay It worked not good but none the less it didnt cost a million 2 see if there was music on them.Later Taters .

@BURKECOUNTYSKYHAWK 12 лет назад

Sorry I forgot If anybody wants them 2 disks i have Ill mail them 2 uall I dont no how much it would cost but i need a little extra 4 gas please Later Taters again.40.00 dollars mabey .