Editing Galaxy S24 Ultra Astro Images: These "RAW" Files Are HILGHLY SUSPECT 

I'll post this detailed comment from a subscriber on my other video about the raw files: This is from @UltimaGaina (huge thanks for all info here!) "Meanwhile I have a few more nerdy updates. I studied the DNG 1.6 standard and the newly released DNG 1.7 standard, and I have to partially rest my case when it comes to PRO mode DNGs. Basically, it is correct that in April 2023, Samsung switched from uncompressed RAW to 12 bit JPEG compression, inside a DNG container. But after studying the standard, I can confirm that we are talking about LOSSLESS JPEG compression. Here is that complicated paragraph: The DNG specification specifies that while Compression value 7 (JPEG) combined with a PhotometricInterpretation value 6 (YCbCr) or 1 (BlackIsZero) and a uniform BitsPerSample value of 8 indicates normal baseline JPEG compression, the same Compression value 7 (JPEG) combined with another PhotometricInterpretation value and/or another BitsPerSample value is also possible and should always indicate lossless JPEG compression (lossless sequential Huffman, SOF3). In our case, the compression tag has the value 7 and the Photometric Interpretation has the value 34892 (Linear RAW) which is different than 6 or 1, therefore we are dealing with LOSLESS JPEG compression. Now, we lost the ability to use the Lightroom Denoise AI algorithm, not because the JPEG compression, but because the file is demosaiced. The Photometric Interpretation of the uncompressed file was CFA (Color Filter Array), while the JPEG compressed file in Pro mode is demosaiced (Linear RAW). This is why it is not working with Denoise Ai in Lightroom. Now stay with me: the new version of GCam app is also using LOSSLESS JPEG inside the DNG container, but they preserve the CFA Photometric Interpretation of the original uncompressed file. This is why GCam DNGs are compatible with Lightroom Denoise AI. Why Samsung did adopt the same elegant solution? Beats me! Conclusion: While it's worse than before April 2023, it's not as bad as we thought: the Pro mode is still preserving (almost) all information. We can denoise it with Topaz Photo AI, instead of LightRoom Denoise AI, with comparable results. One more thing: the new DNG 1.7 standard has introduced a new, more efficient JPEG XL compression (using a new compression tag: 52546). (Google: CamCyclopedia JPEG XL) This is the compression used by Expert RAW on S24. It can be either lossless or lossy, but based on the very small file size (~6MB) it is very likely that it is lossy, or what Samsung is calling "visual lossless" (=bullshit). It is still worse than the Pro mode (except for the dynamic range), at it may still be made out of a stack of 8 bit JPEGs, combined into a 32-bit HDR file, and then tone-maped and compressed using the new JPEG XL compression. So if the original input is garbage (lossy 8 bit JPEGs), the output is just a smaller file containing the same original garbage." -comment provided by @UltimaGaina (thanks again!)

The problem with Adobe's AI denoise is that it requires a Bayer pattern RAW.

Hey @BrentHall, have you tried switching "profile" in photoshop camera RAW just under the histogram? It looks like you are editing with samsungs expert pro profile, which applies a gamma mapping of some sort. Try Adobe standard. This should improve the results and simplify edits as its in linear and adjustments do what you expect them to do, which is not the case with that default samsungs profile. Hope this helps!

25:59 RAW ASTRO Best

Thanks for the showing the editing results between the different modes. Maybe it's worth to come back to astrophotography with the S24U in half a year again or so, because till then they might improve the quality with some updates. And about the quality of the pictures: since in my opinion photography is mostly a question of money, as in you buy a 5k+$ camera with a great lens and enjoy your epic results, it is really impressive to see such pictures coming from a phone. That is also why I'm pretty much only interested in mobile photography, because when you take insane pictures with your phone and show it to people and they find out that a phone took them, they are instantly shocked and almost in disbelief. While on the other hand, if you tell them that you took the picture with a 5k+$ camera, they think more like "just as expected from an expensive camera, cool, but expected" and the excitement goes out the window. That is why I'm really looking forward to how the cameras in phones will improve in the future. Thanks again for your time!

Thank you for an eye opener Brent! This is very important information for enthusiasts starting out in their astro journey or mobile photography journey in general, even for people who want to get every buck they spent from their smartphone cams. Truly inspiring the work and research you have done here. I know it was mentioned before but im very interested to see how the other smartphones stack up, especially the most praised ones in photography, the Google Pixel and Sony Xperia lines.

Thanks for the informative video! Have you had a chance to test out the new lossless raw option in Expert RAW?

Great work Brent. Hey I was just thinking can we use Siril for editing our RAW astro images? I guess a tutorial on that would be so cool. Load of love bro

Did someone try an older version of Expert Raw on phones with firmware of today? Older app versions should still be available on APK mirror. Then we would know if it's done in the app or in camera / api firmware below app level.

Did ExpertRAW 3.0.04.4 fix the hard colorbanding in lowlight? First test photo looks ok.

One thing I'll state is that light room is not the be all end all RAW image editor, so I would see what other editing Socrates can access the DNG files. Yes the Adobe cult won't hear of anything else, but stating that the data is gone in the supposed RAW files being mangled. It's probably true, but there is a lack of evidence that no editor can read the Samsung RAW DNG files... I know that criticizing Adobe is forbidden but it's one of a plethora of choices. Even trying dedicated astronomy software or GIS / remote sensing software that can read DNG raster data, and Microstation uses the DNG extension... get a trial license of FME FORM, see if it can read it, not likely, but who knows. Should anyone never to jump through hoops, absolutely not, SAMSUNG should fix this and standardize things, even offering up all the prestacked component images to let people use PixInsight or DeepSky Stacker try and make better processed results from the component files.

I have a question, what is the size of the picture u've taken in a Expert Raw mode ?

can you tell me what is that purple color in night mode especially on the black sky ? its been there even on the s22 ultra

Very informative, would the google 8 pro be the better choice?

Is this an issue the s23 has as well... Or will it have it w an update....

Thank you for your time and insights. So just to clarify, are these dodgy dng files from pro mode or expertraw? For the S22 and S23 they did something weird to expertraw but I was able to rely more on the pro mode in the past. Don't tell me they've ruined that too!

The thing is... the sensor is 200 mpx, the max res you can have is 50 I think it has to do some weird stuff to the raw file... I noticed using s21 and s23 that the expert raw app is doing stacking as you said and it's editing the photo already. Even though the pro mode it's not a pure raw file it'so much better in terms of " rawness " ahah

Hey, I am new to this but I noticed you used the 12M mode instead of 50M which is the default/actual size of the sensor. So I was wondering if avg pixels from 50 to 12 has something to do with the dng image being a weird raw. And maybe if you select 50M it's the proper RAW you want. Just a thought, haven't tried googling about it properly

Thanks for that review, Brent. Very interesting. Samsung has announced a camera update for the S24 series (and the S24 Ultra in particular?). Would you consider revisiting this scenario after the update? (I haven't got the update yet, so really don't know what's involved.)

Hello Brent Many thanks for taking the time to show us all this. Before we go any further, this is absolutely not a 4 minute exhibition! it's 4 minutes to do the astro! if you look with the lights of a plane passing at that moment, you will discover that there are only 7 photos taken from the beginning, we see the flashes of the plane's lights in the white line of long exposure it's even presense during the time when you can't stop the astro process with the trigger button then after, it's only the smartphone's calculation time to render Same with 7min with 9 photos and 13 for the 10min you can check it with a slow strobe light So yes, what is this astro mode? raws that are no longer there So for 4min, the JPG gives the best for the time allotted and without a computer it's not clean, but it's the best with the least effort but actually the S23ultra without comes out almost better with 1 year of updating Thank you again, it’s great to discover this with you

or could we simply use/install an OLDER version/apk of Expert Raw...and just refrain from Updating App?

Interesting video, personally I've been disappointed with the s23u & 24u camera overprocessing.

thank you for your video

He’s bang on with the raw images, I bought s24 ultra and the other mages are terrible. Raw files are processed. Which defeats the whole point. Today I shot a lot of images and video, absolute awful. I punched this 2 days ago from amazon. Sending it back Monday morning. No more dodgy Samsung’s for me.

Why does my ligthroom and Photoshop can't read my raw files from my s24 ultra?

Just found an old ProMode DNG from the S22u, everything works there, but of course if you use the S22U with updated firmware today, raw support has also been patched out.

Rainbow lense ring visible in every raw photo in exynos

Am a bit surprised with the size of pictures you are getting , as on my s22 ultra, the picture size on expert raw is over 20MB and way more clearer

what's the best free desktop app for editing raw photos

I think samsung is aware and supposedly doing something about the raws but yeah this is terrible currently... theres definitely weird stuff with the processing in general, sometimes photos are great and other times complete trash and I have noticed a few times after taking a shot the picture it shows you before the processing finishes looks better an more detailed and this has happened with raw photos too which is odd... I would love a button I can hit somewhere that would just take 100% raw unprocessed photos... samsung please

More astrophotography with s24 ultra

They all look like they were shot at high noon. I like the raw astro the best.

I'm really impressed of what a mobile camera is capable of but it's such a shame that Samsung sell us their fancy bs about their cameras, megapixels etc etc and then wrap a bunch of JPEGs into a DNG. I wonder is there any 3rd party app that allows you to use all this camera potential and not waste it. Even though i do really like how 4 min astro sky looks like, but overall normal pro mode looks the best of all of them for my liking

La riduzione del rumore AI su lightroom,non è compatibile perché il file raw generato dall'app pro o expert raw,è compresso in jpeg,non è un vero file raw non compresso,l'ho fatto presente a samsung,che mi ha confermato;s22 ultra aveva i raw non compressi,all'uscita di s23 ultra,ci fu un grosso aggiornamenti,e da lì in poi,anche s22 ultra perse il raw non compresso,xiaomi,oppo,vivo,generano file raw veri non compressi in jpeg,solo samsung,si ostina a comprimere i raw,spacciandosi per raw lavorabili,quando non lo sono;chi ama la fotografia snartphone non deve scegliere samsung,ma xiaomi 14 ultra,vivo x100 pro o oppo find x7 ultra.

My understanding is that pro mode dng is true RAW and expert raw dng is fake raw. Is this correct?

Did you try using a third party app to shoot raw? Would like to see a comparison. If you already did ignore this. 😂