Sorry for the reupload. I'm working with a different audio setup this week, so the initial upload had messed up audio-- hopefully this version is better. Also, this version should be in 2k. Sorry for all the missing comments; there are already a bunch on the previous video here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Kzq_WC_bZXM.html. But please feel free to write them again if you want to. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Malenia never beat Radahn as you stated bro she bloomed knocked herself still couldn't kill a nerf radahn and got carried away by outside forces. Doesn't sound like a win right? Base malenia nor blooming malenia could take down nerfed radahn
Theres something in the game that said the Radagon came to Rennala with a baby Ranni, it is why Ranni is an Empyrean, born of one god, theres no way she can be an Empyrean without this being cannon
The Gloam Eyed Queen maybe is a manifestation of the Rune of Death, like Marika plucked the Rune from the Elden Ring to make the demigods immortals, but in the process she created a being, named Melina as she said was born at the foot of the erdthree, but she get astray from the real purpose, became a queen for the beings who want to kill the gods, like the godskin, and in a sense she is a daughter of Marika since she create her, but in the same, she is not, like she created her, and Marika command Maliketh to sealed the Destined Death and defeat the Gloam Eyed Queen, and the title was given by the one's who follow her, believing that she can defeat the gods, remmember that boc calls you a lord, without you being a real lord, could be not a real status given, but taken, by submition or demonstration of power, the power of the rune of death, remmember that Marika too is a Shamam, she was not a descendant of royalty, she came to be called Queen by her power, not by title given.
This is an old write-up now, with some recent updates from the DLC. Marika is the Gloam/Dusk-Eyed Queen. - There's a red and black spike of death impaling Marika and keeping her in place when we find her at the end. Only Maliketh wields this power, and only he could even defeat a God like Marika. But he's so loyal to her, why would he? - Maliketh "defeated" the Gloam/Dusk-Eyed Queen. We know Shadowbound hounds have to attack their former master if The Fingers feel like the Empyrean is acting against them. We play through this reality with Ranni's quest, and both she and Iji know Blaidd will go mad as she enacts her vision. How do they know this happens? They saw/heard of it happening to Maliketh and Marika already. - 7 seemingly Grace-tinged faces adorn the aprons of the Godskin Nobles. There are 7 Walking Masoleums in the game. A ghostly NPC mentions in a prayer to Queen Marika that a local one contains "your unwanted child..." within. The corpses we find within are seemingly skinned. - Only Marika would be able to guide Ranni to the location of the Rune of Death and how to use it for it to be stolen in the first place to forge the Black Knives. Remember, "Marika... is this what it is to sin?" "Why gull me..." Marika, after all, had only one use for Maliketh in the end, after the other work was done... a vessel to seal away Destined Death. And even then, she betrayed him. - The Beast Eye is a purple, scratched up eye. It's Marika's eye from being defeated and imprisoned by her Shadowbound. No other Queen or Empyrean is "defeated" but not slain, as the text implies there except Marika. And who but her purpose-made hound could even stop her, a God? The one entity empowered enough by the Ring/Fingers to be able to do so should the need arise. - Dominula Village is much like the Hinterlands and the Shaman Village. We find a skinning ritual and a Godskin Apostle there in Dominula. We learn that the "festival" is old and tacitly accepted by the Golden Order. The aesthetic of these villages is much the same, and they're intimately tied to Marika herself. - Gideon gives us a boon in the form of a secret rite known only to him, Black Flame Protection. He is alleged to have peered into the will of Queen Marika and shuddered at the end that should not be. - The Scadutree is of a dual nature. So is Queen Marika. When Gold arose, so too was Shadow born. Gold and Shadow exist as necessary contrasts to each other, yet in a God, in Marika, this duality exists in coalesce, or it did once. - No other characters are named as Queen or Empyrean that aren't already accounted for/ruled out to be the GEQ, and by that I mean Melina, she was given purpose by her mother at the foot of the Erdtree and that means she is a daughter of Marika, not old enough to be the GEQ but possesses traits of both Marika and Radagon. Eye color and hair color are passed down traits we see in game. Well, sure enough, Melina shows us a purple/gloamy eye in one ending. Inherited trait from her mother, the Queen in Black. Marika's eyes are never shown to us to judge their color. - Duskborn ending sees Godwyn rise to ascendancy and sees Death restored, with him as the Prince of Death itself. These titles aren't meaningless. Duskborn? The "Prince" of Death? Well, who would the Queen be? If Godwyn is Duskborn, and if he is a Prince, his mother would, of course, be associated with "Dusk" and be a Queen. And we know his mother is Queen Marika. - Godwyn is referred to as the "Prince of Gold" in an item description. If a Prince of Death could have been a Prince of Gold, why couldn't his mother hold this potential as well, even necessarily so? We see from the Death Knights that Gold and Death can somehow synergize even still... Gold and Shadow, born at the same time, same as it ever was. - Fia is hooded with a black cloak and comes from some other land. She also helps create Godwyn's Duskborn ending and is Death-aligned. We see Marika wearing black hooded garb in a statue where she also is holding the twins Miquella and Malenia. Her tattered clothing as we find her at the end is also black. She is also associated with the Nox/Numen race and the Black Knife Assassins that come from there as well. - Statues of Marika in her crucified pose all show her with a flowing black cloth that wraps behind her in almost the exact same shape as the Godslayer Greatsword, which was the weapon or ritual sword of the GEQ/DEQ. You have to pivot the camera a bit to get a good view, but the shape is very similar. Coiled and then open, with one flap slightly longer than the other, same tip design on the Godslayer Greatsword. It's possible that she was propped up by the Hornsent culture and then part of the betrayal was killing other Gods in their pantheon, but what's maybe more possible is as Centered Tarnished pointed out, that Marika culled some other of her "unwanted" children after learning the truth of the broken Fingers and flawed foundations of her Order. - Hewg prays to Queen Marika about his given task to craft a Godslaying weapon. Very interesting and specific task. Marika wants a God slain. He mentions "the sheer terror of Her..." regarding Marika. Godskins certainly take an interest in killing a God. Who was their leader? A "defeated" Queen who was once an Empyrean. Marika. - Raging Wolf Vargram is a would-be Shadow. Wolf imagery is on his armor. He wields the Godslayer Greatsword. The weapon art is "The Queen's Black Flame", of course. A statue of Marika exists in Farum Azula, depicting her with three wolves. - Marika learned the secrets of the Golden Order and realized her children would "amount only to sacrifices" as she instructed them. She knew the Erdtree was a soul parasite, and by sealing Death away, she weakened the Erdtree over time. She also had Godwyn buried at the roots of it, knowing that he would grow and overtake them, choking the Erdtree further. As he was, Godwyn was an "unwanted" child since he embodied the Golden Order, and she was a prisoner to it. He would end up much like Miquella would, a caged divinity of some kind. She was likely opposed to the Erdtree and Greater Will/Fingers for a long time, weaving plots in secret until the Shattering. She realized, only too late, that ultimate power has a way of becoming a curse when the truth of the nature of it all is finally revealed. Just as Marika shined so brightly with her Golden Order, another aspect of her was as deep as the abyss and as dark as any shadow.
@@cwill14 I was surprised and it was kinda funny, because i was searching related videos about it and saw your comment then changed video again only to see the same comment at the start
My theory is that FA was once attached to Caelid, at the Bestial Sanctum, and also to the Mountaintops, bridging the two. This is why you can see the same giant skeletons in both Caelid and the Mountaintops. My theory goes that FA was once the capital of the Gloam Eyed Queen, and Placidusax was her consort and Elden Lord. This is also why there are dragons all over the northwestern side of Caelid, where FA would have been attached. It's also why the Godslayer Greatsword is beneath the Divine Tower in Caelid, near the Bestial Sanctum. The statue in Maliketh's arena is the Gloam Eyed Queen, and that arena is where Maliketh defeated her. Upon her defeat, Placidusax was hidden beyond time in his arena within FA, awaiting for the return of his God, the GEQ. It's also why the Godskin Duo fight happens in FA. The tapestries in the Godskin Duo arena match the tapestries in the Bestial Sanctum, and the trees outside the Bestial Sanctum match the trees at the bottom of FA, where the wormface's are. The scatted ruins across the land have matching symbols and architecture with FA, so my theory goes that upon the GEQ's defeat, Marika/Greater Will created a tempest that ripped FA from the ground and carrier out to see, making it impossible to reach. When this happened bits and pieces were flung all across the land. This is why you find the sanctuary stones, and ruins pieces on those ruins, as well as at the secret place below the Bestial Sanctum. Marika was removing the capital of her former adversery. She made Maliketh guard the Rune of Death there, making doubly hard to get at (it's nearly impossible to reach FA for anyone, and even if you do, you then have to fight Maliketh). The GEQ was imprisoned in the Erd Tree, and she eventually was able to create/use Melina to gain access to the outside world and look for a tarnished (one who is sure to seek the Elden Ring) and use/manipulate them in to burning the Erd Tree, thereby releasing her from her prison. Any of the endings work for this, except for the Frenzied Flame, since it destroys everything, which is why the GEQ (now freed, and no longer using the vessel Melina, so she looks like herself now) shows up at the frenzied flame ending and vows to bring you Destined Death. Torrent used to belong to the GEQ, not Miquella (there are several spectral steeds, not just one, as evidenced by the skeletons of them all over the place - plus Miquella's steed is a whiter color than Torrent, and Torrent has saddle bags, Miquella's does not). This is why the GEQ, during the Frenzied Flame ending, specifically picks up Torrents whistle from the ash, with sadness and anger. Ranni sought out the GEQ, in order to learn more about the Rune of Death, and how it might be used to free her from her empyrean bonds. The GEQ taught Ranni the dark ritual necessary to carry out her plan, knowing that Ranni would need to burn the Erd Tree to be successful - which would also free the GEQ from her prison. This is why Ranni knows who Torrent's former master is, and it's why she gives you the three wolves spirit ash.
This is pretty solid head canon, ngl. It’s very strange that the statue with the 3 wolves is that of a young person. She doesn’t appear the type to incite apostles dedicated to flaying the skin of gods, either. But very little in this game is as it first appears
@@WilliamWallace-ts6qh I’m curious to hear your opinion after the DLC. I agree with you about the Farum Azula, very interesting observation. Not sure what to think about GEQ being imprisoned. If I remember correctly, it was Marika who was imprisoned at the roots of the Erdtree. Now, of course, there is plenty of space for both of them, I suppose. I still think the theory about Melina being an offshoot of Marika is more likely simply because of all the parallels with Millicent. Also, your theory does not explain who is Melina’s “mother” who gave her a purpose.
The question is who *isn’t* Marika. Can you prove you’re not secretly Marika; how do I know I’m not Marika? I’m not deep enough in the Elden haze to understand this video yet
Each character simultaneously having 3+ different versions of themselves, while also having multiple conflicting aspects within 1 body is a recurring thing in Elden Ring. It's best not to think too logically about characters being separate entities or not.
Since the dawn of Souls lore Miyazaki has actively gone out of his way to make the lore as hard to understand as possible, Elden Ring is his Magnum Opus in confusing/mocking us
@@guardianvalor962 I wonder if by abstract he means a game with less real world analogs than in Elden Ring. While ER does have some crazy metaphysical concepts you need to figure out there's plenty of not abstract references to the real world in the game to build its narrative. The lore in ER is extremely vague and whatnot but there's parts of it that are not really that abstract. Look at Tarnished Archaeologist if you want some examples lol
I also find it strange that Ranni the witch has 3 wolves outside at her doorstep at rannis rise, and then three dedicated followers. Then there's that statue in malikeths boss room of a young woman and three wolves....
Three Eternal Cities. Three Sisters of Caria Manor. Three demigod children. Three randomly located non-boss versions of Red Wolf of Radagon. Three towns for the inheritors of the Eternal above ground. _Three_ _co-conspirators_ _during_ _the_ _Night_ _of_ _the_ _Black_ _Knives._
Not my theory, but I saw the basis of it somewhere in a comment on another theory video (I dont remember which, i've watched a lot today) and was able to fill in the details and gaps from what I heard: The Gloam Eyed Queen was the true original Empyrean that lived with and ruled over the Hornsent. Marika, enraged by what the Hornsent did to her and her village, created/became Radagon and then sought out the Gloam Eyed Queen to reproduce with her and then murder her. The union between the Gloam Eyed Queen and Radagon created Melina and Messmer. The story trailer for the DLC was Markia transforming back from Radagon, stealing the Empyrean golden thread from the now dead Gloam Eyed Queen and taking her place as the chosen Empyrean God for the Two Fingers. She then stole Messmer and Melina (since they were not her kids, but Radagon's) acted as a surrogate mother, and then sent them by her orders off on to their respective damning missions. The original sin, and the seduction, betrayal, and the affair from which gold arose- were all of these actions done by Marika.
I think the gloam eyed queen was marika before she betrayed the hornsent. She was the jar saint serpent queen and bride of hoarah loux in the age of the crucible. She betrayed the hornsent to the two fingers and the greater will, divesting herself of flame, serpent and integrity in the form of messmer and melina in the process. It could be that she was meant to be fed to a great serpent/god devouring serpent at the gate of divinity but killed it instead and ascended to godhood herself by creating a great rune. The same serpent (a serpent never dies) later seduced rykard. I'm rambling idk
in support of Marika being GEQ, her statues in the dlc are posed like the rune of death (like in the church of benediction). this contrasts the rune of life pose her statues take in the lands between
This has some amazing points! I do think you're really missing the mark on Malenia however. Saying that she whipped out the rot just because she couldn't stand to lose to gigachad Radahn and she was just butthurt or something hugely undermines who she is imo. She has never known defeat, sure. She definitely takes pride in that. (And I agree that Millicent represents her pride which she was forced to shed in that battle) But above her pride is her loyalty to miquella and her belief in him. She unleashed the rot because Radahn /had/ to lose that fight for miquella's goals to happen. There's the eclipse of castle Sol for one, and now the fact that he's required for the dlc, which we know is basically miquella's whole story now. Malenia def wasn't fighting him for funsies. Miquella's driving motivation (or one of them) is to cure his sister. She trained with the blind swordsman. We know for a Fact that Malenia likely despises the rot. She wouldn't have let herself succumb to it over hurt pride. That's just not who she is. And while that's a lot deeper into her than you may have wanted to go in your Melina video, all too often I see this fandom fall into this really weird, mildly misogynistic, and most importantly boring read that it's the gigachad Radahn vs the soy rotcucked Malenia. It totally misses our on her character and how tight she is Plus like, Radahn is cool enough as is without needing to shit on Malenia. Brother fought space and won. Let them both be cool
Let them both be cool, but not flawed. Good idea. This had some amazing points! Unfortunately, now we are trying to get into Malenia’s head (impossible) and how would we know the reason she nuked Caelid? We would not! No offense to you but I don’t think that while she was self-desctructing she was thinking of Miquella. She wishes she could introduce herself to Radahn as many times as she does to the Tarnished, but she basically hit a brick wall until she used a status effect to erode that wall. Also. Radahn doesn’t have feet anymore. This entire reply was a ruse just to get to this point. Why are the cripples some of the coolest fights in Elden Ring? (Albinaurics on wolfback are Not Cool.)
So Marika, the Gloam-Eyed Queen of the Godskin Apostles who she raised to be the death of the gods was convinced she could use her dominion of Destined Death to cheat her own and become Eternal. As she began to realize her actions would leave her to Eternal suffering she began to lose blind faith in her own Order and a new alter-ego formed as Radagon who seeked perfection. And as her unwanted children were born with curses and deformities, as her Order continued to show faults, she was pushed to the brink and set a plan in motion to undo everything as to be free from the prison of Eternity she jailed herself into. As the the Night of the Black Knives and The Shattering took place, Melina also sprung forth.
My schizo theory about Maliketh is that he is literally Marika’s Shadow and figuratively defeated the GEQ as he was made manifest, taking the rune of death from her god slaying blade and sealed into his own. His only memory is of Marika, which is why he appears so confounded when she later betrays his only purpose. Edit: I’m thinking along the same lines as when Darth Vader killed Anakin circa Order 66.
the talk about "seduction", maybe that's the greater will seducing marika with the promise of eternity and order, cause i dont believe she reached that conclusion by herself and set her goals without external influences
@@Rockngames1 Totally. I imagine there was a whole chain of seduction and betrayals all the way down, from whatever The Greater Will is, to the people that would become her subjects under this new order.
I believe Malenia didn't let the scarlet aeonia bloom out of pettiness for losing to Radahn but that she sacrificed herself and gave in to the outer god of rot to give Miquella's new order a fighting chance. If Radahn becomes Elden Lord he would uphold the status quo of the golden order, damning all that Miquella tries to accomplish.
I do agree, that Beating Radahn was important for Miquella’s motives. But I think it’s deeper than that. It could be, like you said, that Radahn threatens the seat of Elden Lord… but I think his necessary death is MUCH more related to the stars. Miquella likely wanted Malenia to kill Radahn, and resume the movement of the stars. What do we know about Stars in Elden Ring? Well, the basics of it are that they control the fate of the demigods (Amber starlight). Stars are also particularly important because it is a Star that birthed the very, and titular, Elden Ring (Elden Stars incantation). Obviously, I won’t know for sure right now what Miquella needed Radahns death for, but it’s surely related to Miquella’s goals and fate. It’s much deeper than Miquella feeling threatened by Radahn’s possible lordship. Radahn’s death was SO important for Miquella’s goals that Malenia felt it NECESSARY to abandon her sense of self and honour for the benefit of the greater picture.
she rotted because they came to a standstill, dex charm description tells us the curved swordsman trained melina, the dancer charm implies hes the one to stop the rot god in the past. most likely he taught her how to suppress the rot, blue cloth cowl description says as water turns fowl, stagnation to decay, gideon always says the fight came to a standstill, its pretty clear the game is telling us she needed to keep moving or her flowing water would go fowl, which is the name of her attack, water fowl dance. nor water flow anymore
Amazing video yo The being on the briar greatshield and its description, the mention of solitary ascetics from a foreign land, the vague reasoning of the guilty, Marika's crucifiction at her own churches and the description of numen.These are some of the reasons pre-dlc, I figured Marika is the gloam eyed queen. After the dlc, finding out she can meld with others, the shed snake skin near the o mother gesture, the shadow of Messmer's serpent coiling around Marika, and the mutual hatred the hornsent have towards snakes, Marika and her children. Are more reasons I still think she is the gloam eyed queen, that started the golden lineage with Godfrey. Possably by grafting a golden lion to Horah Loux. Idk how to explain this, but at dusk and dawn, you can see the sun casting what looks like grace on the water. I've always took the fleeting beauty of it only lasting for a moment, as something similar to the descriptions of the erdtree's perfection being a fleeting thing, like life itself. And correct me if I'm wrong, but the golden glow on the water might also be considered a gloam, which would be like saying the golden eyed queen, but a gold that fades and comes back in the morning. Maybe you could put my foolish ambitions to rest, that the golden order wasn't created until after Radagon's union with Renalla? I'm currently under the impression Marika's origional order up untill the golden order, was called the erdtree faithful? with some uprising in volcano manor keeping a priest or something in a jail, but it makes me think there could have been something else entirely at volcano manor before an uprising, with erdtree faithful having something to do with it. It's just very strange that you get the golden order seal where you'd expect the erdtree seal to be, with erdtree seal in prison town, and golden order seal at minor erdtree church? I take it as the golden order could have usurped the erdtree faithful
There’s actually one key visual clue that connects Melina’s sealed eye with the beast eye. The beast eye item has very distinct three stripe markings, so far the closest match to the clawmark seal on Melina’s left eye (much more so than the deathbird claws to which many are drawing the connection!)
Is anybody not somebody else? Maybe the Frenzied Flame already won, and chaos has already taken the world… it’s just forgotten, in the chaos of it all 😂
Indeed. The true eclipse is the frenzy flame and gold mask conjoined, the formless mother has merged with frenzy, you can see bloodflame emanating from the character.
Saying Malenia "used a cheat code to beat Radahn" even though it's her main ability is crazy. This is like saying "Goku used a cheat code to beat Frieza!" even though his abilities are something he was born with 😭
Nah its like Gon against Neferpitou in HxH because it wasnt his own power that he used, rather a last way out to nuke everything or like Megumi summoning Mahoraga in JJK
@@Ottomanlobster4287 Don't watch HXH so i'm not gonna try and act like Ik what that means, but that's clearly not applicable since you said he used a power he didn't have originally. Malenia literally was born with hers. Same with Megumi. He's literally born with that attack, so he should be allowed to use it.
@@mult1versal yeah he was born with it but its not his because he hasn't tamed Big Raga same for Malenia she also has no control to the Scarlet Rot but i understand your point
...the "strawberry-blond" hair is one of the most bonkers obvious things I've never put together. Of COURSE there's some sort of Radagon/Marika stuff going on with that. Of COURSE!
Given your discussion of snakes, and their relationship to the Erdtree, I'm surprised that you didn't point out all of the "snails" in the game are actually snakes disguised with a shell. It's clear if you look at frozen images of them, and you can fight "snail" skeletons in some of the graveyards, despite snails being invertebrates.
thank you for outright saying you're staying spoiler free, as am I. Can't tell you how many videos I've had to just stop early because I was unsure where they were going and it seemed like spoiler territory. You're the best, Crunchy.
Nah Melina is a daughter to Marika and Radagon. This is confirmed as she’s represented by a butterfly. The butterflies we can find in game all represent the children of Marika and Radagon. Nascent butterfly represents Miquella, Aeonian butterfly represents Malenia, Smouldering butterfly represents Melina. And then in the dlc we’re introduced to Messmer and Black Pyreflies. I like to believe that the children of Marika and Radagon come in twos. First came the twins Melina and Messmer, and then came Miquella and Malenia. The later share a contrasting theme, Miquella is cursed with eternal youth while Malenia is cursed with Scarlet Rot which caused her to rapidly decay, symbolizing old age and death. And then we have Melina and Messmer who both share the theme of fire. Messmer has his own flame, a flame which is notably different from any other pyromancy in the game, his fire is more red and more aggressive. He is able to share his fire with his followers, his fire knights who cast incantations of Messmer’s flame. Then when we kill Messmer, we obtain his flame as a physical item. Now Melina’s flame was black flame, and in contrast to Messmer’s flame which could burn away all physical things, Melina’s black flame could burn metaphysical things (being burned by black flame does hp damage because it’s burning your very soul) and just like Messmer, Melina was able to pass on her black flame power to her own ‘knights’ the Godskins. And so Messmer went on to use his flame to burn the enemies his mother pointed him at, where as Melina desired to burn the things that she could, she wanted to burn the Erdtree. Marika couldn’t risk Melina tearing down everything she had worked for, so she had Maliketh confront Melina and defeat her. Maliketh then took Melina’s black flame just as we take Messmer’s flame, and he converted it into destined death, giving Maliketh sole control over the only thing that can kill the soul, thus truly killing someone once and for all. (Note, Maliketh didn’t have destined death when he defeated Melina, which is why she’s still around, he killed her, but couldn’t get rid of her for good, nor did he need to once he took her power away.) So when we meet Melina, she doesn’t know who she is or what her purpose is, but in time, she ultimately arrives at the same conclusion once again, she wants to burn the Erdtree, even without her black flame, she’s still the same person. We can then see to her wishes and use her to burn the Erdtree OR we can spare her and burn the Erdtree with the flame of frenzy. And then in the flame of frenzy ending, we see Melina take on a new form, her original form, the form of The Gloam-Eyed Queen. Why has she reverted to this old form? Because we kill Maliketh and unleash destined death, thus returning Melina’s black flame power to her. The idea of Melina and Messmer being twins is backed up further by their association with the serpents. Messmer’s association with the serpents is obvious, where as Melina’s connection relies on the theory of her being the Gloam-Eyed Queen, where she’d then be associated with the Godskins, and we know the Godskins are associated with serpents.
This is great stuff! Really appreciate your way of seeing Melina as the Gloam Eyed Queen. I agree about the twins of Marika and Radagon. I think Messmer and Melina were born of their separation. And Miquella and Malenia were born when they re-merged. I doubt that any of the demigods were actually born through normal sexual reproduction.
Excellent write up!! What if Maliketh defeated Melina/the Gloam Eyed Queen, but let her be. Deafeated doesn't mean killed. It's possible she was burnt and bodiless because Messmer destroyed her. Marika already makes him do her dirty deeds with his subjugation of the shadowland, isn't it possible he requested he burn his sister so she could better control her as a spirit? Things that don't really gel : why would Melina be "queen" of anything. Where would she have ruled? If she's an empyrean, as we know she was, where is her shadow bound beast, and more importantly, why wasn't Messmer? We know both Miquella and Malenia have no shadows (as far as we can tell) but were also both Empyreans despite the curse. Perhaps it's because Melina inherited Grace, while Messmer didn't. Perhaps the flames aren't the curse, but only the serpent inside of him. Making him uneligible, not only for grace, but also for empyrean status. Now that I think about it, there's NOTHING to support this, but it's possible that Melina could have been the queen Marika puts in charge of all the shadowlands while she's off with Messmer in the Lands Between. There is a lot of death there. Maliketh and Messmer could have come for her together, Messmer burning her/returning her to Marika to control (and use later on).
@@Oveyz perhaps the idea of Melina being the ‘Queen’ comes from the idea that perhaps she planned to overthrow the Golden Order? So it was somewhat of a self proclaimed baseless title, and then in the lore, any time the “Gloam-Eyed Queen” comes up, she’s specifically mentioned by that name, intentionally distancing Melina from her past self. I also like your idea of Maliketh simply defeating Melina. I only mentioned ‘killed’ just because we know Melina is a spirit, so I figured her current status is a result of physical death without the use of black flame or destined death. And then regarding the whole Empyrean but seemingly absent of a shadow, well, we know of quite a few empyreans who are never revealed to have a shadow, so it’s a hard bit of lore to really understand clearly. Though, if Melina is truly a daughter of Marika and Radagon (which, let’s be real, that’s truly all but confirmed) then she IS an empyrean, and what little we do know of the Gloam-Eyed Queen also tells us that she was an empyrean.
@@tristanlambert658 I guess then for me the next thick bit of Lore is going to be Messmer. He's clearly Marika's golden child. While Godwyn was golden in name and deeds, there's few hints Marika care much for him, especially if you subscribe to the school of thought of Marika planning the entire coup and using Ranni and Rykard, and everyone along the way (Godfrey and the Tarnished, Maliketh, Godwyn as sacrifice, etc). Messmer gets special healing vials, is trusted with safeguarding her village and collating a lot of knowledge (the stone tablets in her chamber are the same as in Messmer's storehouse). he's a mama's boy, etc. I basically have a theory that Marika hides him in the Land of Shadow not just to hide him away out of shame if his/her secret comes out about his serpent, but also to protect him from any such backlash, AND her future plans. Mogh and Radahn are both *optional* bosses. Miquella could be blue balled into inifinity and eradicated with the rise of a new lord if we decided to skip these bosses. The realm of shadow is borderline impossible to reach, especially for us who cannot truly die. Messmer could literally not be in a SAFER place in the entire game. I'm wondering if Marika didn't stash him there to avoid embroiling him in her shenanigans when she began to plot the downfall of the Elden Beast. He's also a believer in her dogma, and not in the loop (literally nobody freaking is lol) Meanwhile then what of Melina? I feel like it's possible she was used. She has no story the way Messmer has no story. It was suppressed, or what we have is from the GEQ. Then she becomes without clear sense of memory or self, just a given purpose. It's possible that she isn't cursed, is an empyrean, and was given some freedom to fuck around/rule for Marika, and was taken out when she became an issue. While messmer was cursed with the serpent and stuck to Marika, doing her deeds and being rewarded with safety in an out of sight and mind cage. But what's with the serpent? Near Bonny village there's a shed skin that's the same model as the great serpent corpse in that Gelmir church. Oddly specific. And Messmer also has winged snakes, in his own flesh, which are told to keep the serpent at bay, and are his friends and companion. Meanwhile, the serpent feeds on the kindling at his core. It's called a kindling, not a flame. "A dark thing, eaten away at by a wicked serpent." The serpent that eats at him, and the snakes that eat at the serpent, has fantastic 1:1 correlation with some depictions of Ouroboros : 64.media.tumblr.com/9d57e90153cf4d6e835244def9e5e192/5af979f4fb4dfc48-a7/s640x960/534c37a33bce5800c96ebb3b35a18e097cfe5c91.jpg That ouroboros theme, keeping him in a perpetual state of balance, could represent that. While Melina is the end, the true death, Messmer could be a cycle. Things being fed on, to stay in balance, while Melina's erases and destroys, even gods. Also the vague possibility that Melina was meant to be the kindling Maiden to Messmer's flame, burning down the erdtree, and so separating them was important. Making it a good reason to keep one giant alive, so that another flame can be used. Gosh I'm sorry I'm just spitballing wildly.
Out of all the theories regarding Melina's identity, this one makes the most sense. The Tarnished player character being Godwyn is one I'd like to see you do a video on next... It explains the reason why they're the only Tarnished that is seemingly immortal among other things (such as two of the game's endings, a certain boss' dialogue etc)
Correct me if there's in-game evidence that contradicts this, but I believe the reason our Tarnished can come back from death where others can't is because we are the only ones actively receiving the guidance of grace. Rogier confirms that he could once see it but no longer can, and I kind of extrapolated from that the other Tarnished we meet are in the same boat as him. As an aside, I've also always assumed that this is what the Tabel of Lost Grace's purpose is. It's literally a well for the grace bestowed onto Tarnished, and when that grace is removed it is returned to the well (i.e. why there is more grace gathered above the table than anywhere else in the game). This is really interesting because it implies that grace might be an expendable resource that needs to be recycled, rather than just "created" infinitely by Marika for new and upcoming Tarnished, and could explain why the guidance of grace is taken away from Tarnished who could once see it. Statistically speaking, the more Tarnished who can see grace, the higher the chance that one will become Elden Lord and follow whatever Marika's plan is, so why take it away from them at all?
@@jackhague3828 That was my initial impression as well, but apparently the Volcano Manor Tarnished and Hoarah Loux can also see it. Yet none of them seem to be able to immediately vanish upon death only to respawn after some time like the player character can.
@@W_W-f8ydon't forget Gideon. He he can see the guidance of grace too right? (I honestly forgot if he's just lazy or not when it comes to gathering runes. Or he physically can't cause he doesn't have grace to guide him)
i don't know about the "being Godwyn" thing. but Zayf the scholar just did a video, where he presents evidence that the player could be a demigod from one of the walking mausoleums. (we can here there bells, stomps, etc. in the intro cinematic when we awake.) wich would also explain our immortality.
@@petespeedsxp4967 yeah there is another version of that theory out there according to which that demigod is none other than Godwyn (or his disembodied soul?). That's why the Tarnished is shown waking up inside an area that heavily resembles the room Radagon can later be found in instead of a walking mausoleum
We learned that you need to divest your physical being and whole aspects of yourself to reach godhood in the DLC. Melina and millicent may be such divested fragments.
So, you dipped your toe into Carl Jung's human psyche and gnosticism, and when it all starts to fall into place, you pull back. The lands between is the inner world of somebody who is struggling with a traumatic event, mainly survivors guilt. The main characters are major archetypes (shadow, self, ego, animus, persona) and the demigods are the archetypes (the mother, the lover, the sage, the martyr, the hero, the caregiver, the everyman, the rebel), side characters are complexes (memories, emotions), invaders (intrusive thoughts). Melina and Millicent are examples of branching. And the Gloam-Eyed Queen seems to be the Nyx type character that we need to visit, along with the character that represents the traumatic event, the death of the twin sibling, in order to achieve individuation. Spiritual Enlightenment.
It’s weird that people insist on it being Jung and Gnosticism and ignore the ideas that influenced Jung like Kaballah, hermeticism, alchemy, Neoplatonism, rosicrucianism, and plain old vanilla Christian mysticism.
The game is basically Western Esotericism: The Musical without the singing and dancing. Plus obviously a lot of Eastern undercurrents. But those undercurrents are usually present in a lot of Western Esotericism anyways.
@@nottwo not ignoring any of the other ancient and mythological works at all. As you even mentioned yourself, Jung was influenced by the other material, which he then basically packaged together into one slightly easier 'digestible' package.
@@nottwo I think I explained a lot of the core story elements in 1 paragraph, with examples. Which I'm sure some people will find rather handy to help understand the story of Elden Ring a little better.
I don’t believe Malenia released the rot because she was losing necessarily, as they’re depicted as both fighting to a stalemate. I thought it was apparent that she released her rot in an attempt to gain favour in the fight, but it wasn’t enough to destroy Radahn. Leaving both of them incapacitated. Thus a stalemate regardless. But I guess we don’t have enough evidence to really say for sure 🤷♀️
@@CrunchyVideos Truee she does say that, I keep looking back on the short scene we get of the Malenia and Radahn on the battlefield. And they seem to be at a resting point after already taking some swings at one another. I truly believe she was capable of holding her own against Radahn, she just wasn't able to get a win over on him because he was so powerful. So she released the rot and even that wasn't enough. But I really have a hard time believing she was close to losing, or that she necessarily would have suffered a bigger loss than Radahn would have. I honestly thought they were a match in strength, Malenia with her Rot, and Radahn with his gravity magic.
Surprisingly, I disagree with almost everything in this video. Firstly, the idea of distancing Melina from the GEQ on the basis of gloam not being purple - I think it's clear based on all the Godskin's jewels that the color of the GEQ's eye is purple. Additionally, if we say that Melina has a sealed eye because their shadowed aspects are sealed away, where is Melina's shadow? Or, if Melina is Marika's shadow, why is it that neither Blaidd or Maliketh themselves have sealed eyes? Or Marika herself for that matter, though we never see her unbroken face as far as I know. Secondly, there's this idea that Ranni represents freedom from the Greater Will and subjugation to God, but in light of the fact that we need to free the stars in order to have the fate they've dictated for her come true, I'm not sure that's the case. In a similar vein, this idea that Malenia choosing to cast off her sense of self and unleash the Scarlet Rot is the result of a weakness of character. It could easily be said that if she had chosen to prioritize her pride and sense of self, that's just as much of a flaw as the opposite. Is it really better that somebody choose death over change? In this way, if we say that Marika shattered the Elden Ring and set all of this in motion to avoid becoming Radagon and to die as herself, is that actually supposed to be a good thing?
I don’t think the jewel makes it obvious; “Gloam-Eyed” doesn’t have to refer to a color at all. She could just have an eye for gloam, ie a worldview aimed at dusk in some metaphorical sense. In any case, I do eventually agree with the idea that Melina is meant to connote the GEQ, even if I don’t think the evidence is strong that she *is* the GEQ. As for the sealed eyes, perhaps I wasn’t clear, but I think Melina is an offshoot of Marika, so her sealed eye corresponds to Marika’s shadow of Maliketh. Essentially, I think Marika would have looked a lot like Melina at some point. The second question is a bit more complicated, and I probably could have spent more time on that. I think that Miyazaki rarely presents binary moral choices, so looking for the “good” alternative is a bit misleading in my view. The game deals with the idea of free will and duty in a nuanced and ambiguous way. I think it’s saying something about the idea that being a leader means making yourself beholden to those you lead, and a related but different idea that to achieve greatness means sacrificing your humanity. There’s more to it than that, but I wouldn’t say that either option you mentioned is clearly better or worse. I was being cheeky about Malenia, but I think there is both a negative association to her abandoning her dignity as well as a positive association of noble sacrifice, and I don’t think it’s meant to be clear cut.
Melina represents a piece of Marika that has been cut out and sealed away to become bodiless. This was done by removing the Rune of Death (Destined Death) from Marika and the Elden Ring she embodies. Marika cut out her destiny to die and become a death goddess, which resulted in her becoming Marika, Queen of the Golden Order (the Goddess of Life) instead. Ranni shares the sealed eye and bodiless attributes as Melina with the claw of the deathbird tattooed over the eye of her spirit self. These similarities indicate a connection in methodology at least. I believe it's safe to say that Marika and Ranni used a similar technique except Ranni only had 1 soul in her body, so her body just died instead of being taken over by another spirit/aspect. The connection between Ranni, Marika, and the Black Knife Assassins is too close not to be a coincidence. It'd make sense if Ranni learned how to become bodiless from the numen's knowledge of what Marika did with Melina. I believe that Empyreans are essentially the spirits associated with a Rune capable of incorporating the Elden Ring. When these spirits exist within a body, they become fated to become a God by the stars. The Elden Ring is essentially a mishmash of powerful runes held together by the rune of an Empyrean who is then considered God. Outer Gods aren't external beings, they are the pull of fate (the stars) leading characters that have a potential to achieve deific status with their Runes. Miquella's Needle is "unfinished" and has to be used outside of time in order to work properly (fate/time/the stars/Outer Gods are all related). Radahn's study of gravity magic allowed him to pause the fate, which halted the ability of Empyreans to become Gods. Perhaps his use of gravity magic caused an acceleration of Malenia's fate to become the Goddess of Rot, and she bloomed. At some point, (probably after defeating the Fire Giants, as an unintended consequence of her actions) Marika gained a new Empyrean spirit/aspect within her: Radagon. Radagon's rune is a latticework capable of binding the Elden Ring together tightly and represents Totality, so she couldn't just cut him out like she did with Melina. This explains the whole conversation "Thou art yet to become me. Thou art yet to become a God... Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self." Marika has no other way to stop Radagon from replacing her and becoming a God besides completely shattering the Elden Ring and her body. Ranni did not wish to obey her fate as an Empyrean to become a Goddess as she views an individual's will (free will) as being more important than the Greater Will of the universe (fate itself). Ranni's ending is essentially ending the idea of fate, and therefore of Empyreans and Gods, so that everyone can choose their own paths. instead of being lead by fate to become a different person as a God.
@@GeneralTaco155555a Again, I see this idea that Ranni's ending represents freedom and choice, but I don't see how that squares with the idea that she had you unbind the stars so that she could achieve the fate they decided for her. In her ending fate still exists, it's just taken to the stars so that people live in ignorance of what the nature of the world's Order is. And from this we can assume that people will once again return to scrying the stars to discern fate.
@@RevanX77 Radahn halted fate while Ranni was still an Empyrean. Her fate was still tied to the unmoved stars until Radahn is killed. And nah, by not inheriting the Elden Ring, Ranni breaks the cycle of fate and the idea of Gods existing in the Lands Between. Free will is just the absence of direction by the Greater Will. Scrying would be useless because the Greater Will of the universe no longer dictates fate in the Lands Between. You can infinitely say "well free will doesn't really exist if an omnipotent being knows all possible futures," but it's a moot point: For all intents and purposes, it is free will.
@@GeneralTaco155555a She has Radahn killed explicitly so the fate dictated to her by the stars will happen. She's following her fate, not breaking away from it. And I don't see why you think she doesn't inherit the Elden Ring. She says outright that she's implementing her own Order, just keeping it at a far remove. Also you seem to keep conflating ignorance with free will, no that's obviously not the case. If the Order of the world is being decided "under the wisdom of the moon" (a moon that Ranni was warned to fear and evidently didn't), then it's all the same except that people are being kept in the dark.
i mean, theres more than one symbolical meaning for snakes in the mythologies that elden ring draws off of so varied snake imagery would make sense. theres jörmungandr, an ourobouros like sea serpent in norse myth that brings the end of the world should it ever let go of biting its tail, nidhogg, another snake from norse myth that chews on the roots of the greattree, in christianity theres obvioulsy the serpent of eden, theres the caduceus and aesclepius, staffes with snakes (two for the caduceus one for the aesclepius) that often symbolize medicine, used in greek and roman myth aswell as alchemy and later commonly adopted by christian apothecaries, and that list can go much longer if you want to include asian serpentine dragons or various forms of sea serpents
It's crazy watching this after what we learn in the DLC. About St Trina being an offshoot of Miquella. Same as Marika and Radago. Miquella divested many parts of themselves. Not hard to believe Marika did too
@@chancefreely which could just add Messmer to the list of divested pieces of Marika. Besides, there's a lot of ground to cover when it comes to the implications of having children with a divested piece of yourself.
@@Cephal0god I love theory crafting, but I gotta be honest. There’s little to no chance of that actually being the case. Aside from the fact that Marika and Miquella explicitly only have one other half, those “divested” bits you’re talking about were individual aspects of Miquella. It wasn’t like he was spawning a different Miquella at each of the crosses. Each part of himself he divested was each symbolically representative of something. In fact, there’s another demigod that divested themselves of something as well: Ranni. She divested herself of life itself, yet there aren’t two Ranni’s running around. With your logic, it could apply to literally all of her children, which is just incompatible with the lore of the game. Each demigod had completely different motivations. To say they’re all the same person, or even a few of them are the same person, is ridiculous. This whole video is ridiculous really. The GEQ was an enemy and rival empyrean to Marika from what we know in the lore. They couldn’t possibly be the same person, much less somehow her daughter/enemy/herself.
@@chancefreely I agree that they aren't all divested parts of Marika, but I just wanted to say that Ranni didn't exactly divest herself of her body in the same way Miquella did. She used a Black Knife to literally kill her body lol. We don't know how Miquella did it, but I doubt it was like that.
What if the empyreans are like Marika and Radagon, two halfs of one being. Marika found this out and separated these halves of her empyrean children. She then beheaded and entombed the unwanted half's in the walking mausoleums. This could be why Malenia seems half of herself to other npcs and Miquella can't age.
One criticism I have is that the world seems to be painted in a way so that Marika and GEQ are likely at odds with each other. Given that Marika is the one who removed destined death from the elden ring, and was against it. There aren't many hints suggesting it was Marika who fought Maliketh, I think Melina is almost certainly a direct daughter of Marika, which is boring but most likely. Cutscenes with Melina have been data mined as "Daughter of Marika" and she refers to her mother as being within the erd tree, I take this as literal. One of the biggest connections with GEQ (other than frenzy flame ending) is the fact she was Empyrean. The only known Empyreans other than GEQ are children of Marika/Radagon. It is not required to be a child of Marika but it seems her offspring and close relatives are ideal candidates for being such. I also heavily subscribe to the butterfly theory, the smoldering being reference to Melina. My headcannon after this is that Maliketh in the process of sealing destined death and killing Melina(GEQ) caused her physical body to be destroyed, the sealing of destined death during this process however made her soul immortal, returning to the erd tree where she was reborn. This process was so visceral it partially destroyed her soul, eliminating most of the memories Melina had. This isn't far from how Ranni experienced destined death, the exception being she had a vessel for her soul to inhabit after physical death. We know Marika's children were all very powerful and rulers, and had a faction they resided over. The GEQ's followers are lost (godskin), all over the map. This fits with Melina's story as being a former image of herself.
I don't think Melina's body was done in by Malekith, my theory of events is like this: - Melina was born after Messmer, and became the GEQ. - Marika seals the Rune of Death. - Messmer due to the abyssal serpent, burns Melina, maybe cuz in his eyes Melina's acts as the GEQ were a sin against their mother. - Marika is horrorized by Messmer actions and puts the eye seal on him. - Marika still unsure about Messmer, decides to kill two birds with one stone: send him to kill the Hornsent and seal Enir Illis so nobody can reach godhood, while sealing Messmer in the Realm of Shadows. - Then the base game story takes place, she marries Godfrey and such. - After realizing the GW link to the two fingers has been severed due to the death of Godwyn, she knows the guidance she has been receiving is a lie, shatters the ER and places her hopes on Melina, whose spirit was dormant in the Erdtree since that's where all spirits go (could be Marika gave Torrent to her after Miquella left to make his Haligtree). - Melina doesn't remember much about her either due to Messmer's killing her or Marika trying to shield her from the painful memories, but sets on a journey with Torrent to find a Tarnished. - Torrent having belonged to Miquella could have given him some insight into finding Tarnisheds with potential. idk but I think it could have gone like this, wdyt?
This is my exact theory to a t!!!! Of course I love hearing new perspectives I never wouldve considered even when it goes against mine but... I gotta admit, it feels nice to get your own theory validated by a sick Loretuber 😅💖🔥 Thanks for what you do!
Just wanted to clarify that you've fleshed it out a lot more than my lil theory about offshoots tho 😅 you gave me so much to think about 💖 you even got my gears turnin on a few other things too. Great vid
yes brooooo finally!! I definitely fuck with the idea that marika was the GEQ. Been doing a lot of research and that was one of the theories I had. Thanks for putting this out there!
A bit unrelated: but I don’t think Malenia cheated via being “dissatisfied” with her “undefeated” title. It’s pretty obvious that the “blade of Miquella” served their entire purpose to Miquella, her brother. Malenia even threw away her godgiven duties as Empyrean, to become Miquella’s Blade. She cared not for glory, as glory is what came with her dedication to her Brother. She cared not for the Great Runes, because she’d have Godricks by now. This was completely unrelated, I know. Sorry. But it’s just a tangential aspect of the vid I’d like to talk about, considering how much people misconstrued Malenia’s character. Yes, she abandoned her Pride - as Millicent is a representation of this. Not to win for personal glory, but more that she abandoned her honour for Miquella’s “promise”, for Miquella’s greater cause…. Whatever that means. Radahn is a mandatory death for the DLC. So we’ll learn why exactly Miquella had Malenia march on caelid
No his whole theory was thrown out because of the DLC maybe you should go read some fucking item description before just believing some dumb ass on RU-vid
This game is very GRRM and Miyazaki. That’s why the two connected and worked together. They share similar world views and how they create. I’ll tell you how: It’s all metaphorical. Nothing in-universe in this game should be taken literally. The whole game is the journey of one person and how they interpret and interact with the world. What they choose to do. “The principles you follow”. That person is you. This world is an “inner world”, the characters are representatives of parts of the mind and psyche. Everything is a whole lot simpler than it seems. It’s all metaphor for Jungian psychology, occult alchemy, philosophy and mythology. Radagon and Marika are the Animus and Anima, except outside forces “outer gods” (other people) influence them and try to get their way. I’m high and spiraling so i might add more later if I remember.
I'm not sure that Malenia did release the scarlet rot out of bitterness. I think the flaw in her "heroic concept" is not that she was prideful, but blindly loyal. Her epithet, "Blade of Miquella" gives the impression that she is no less than the representation of Miquella's intentions made into action. For one, I think that it's important to keep in mind what her motives were. If it was to gain a second great rune and reach the erdtree, then why would she have spared Godrick? I do think that she released the rot as a last resort, but that she was determined to kill radahn on Miquella's behalf to resume the movement of the stars (after all, radahn has to be defeated to access the DLC). Anyway, you're my absolute fave elden ring channel, your Godfrey video is literally my favorite lore video ever. Thanks for reading this!
@@i3looi2 Marika is a numen, with shamans seemingly being just a tribe of numen women just like how the black knife assassins were all numen women close to marika. The numen are capable of taking on aspects of other flesh which is the reason they were used in the saint jars to bind flesh together as well as being the reason why grafting is possible for people of her blood like godrick/godefroy. It's not unheard of to think a numen could take on inhuman aspects as long as they properly graft it.
@shirokun002 which is a plot hole. Why would the numen serve a carian princess and I also thought all the numen were dead when marika went back to the village
Does the spirit actually appear in the age of stars ending? I vaguely remember it being just the doll. That’s the only time we see her after killing Blaidd, if we actually bother killing him.
Ive always thought that the Shield of the Guilty a reference to Melina. The item description reads: “Shield made to venerate a maiden whose eyes were crushed by Briars of Sin before being reborn in these lands.” The shield depicts a maiden with her left eye being gouged by briars, the same eye Melina had blinded. Food for thought
Glad to see another lore hunter not assume that gloam = purple! The Erdleaf Flower, fwiw, is specifically called a “dusky yellow” so technically anything or anyone with yellow eyes could also have gloam eyes, like the serpents, those who have undergone Dragon Communion, or maybe even those inflicted with the Flame of Frenzy (though that last one may be a bit of a stretch). I do like the idea of the Empyrean Shadows being their psychological shadows as well. And in the 1.00 version, the Beast Eye was explicitly called the “gouged out eye of Maliketh.” I also wonder if the motif of lost eyes could also be an allusion to plucking your eye out if it causes you to sin (Matthew 18:9).
There's also the whole Odin thing of losing an eye to gain a more metaphysical vision. The characters with missing eyes all seem to have extra insight on the world that others don't.
DLC spoiler warning! I have a theory that Melina and Messmer were born when Marika and Radagon originally split, and Miquella and Malenia were born when Marika and Radagon became one again. The butterflies associated with these children are the shards from the "shattering" of Marika and Radagon that was required for these processes. Melina, in a parallel to Miquella casting aside St. Trina, is Marika's acceptance of death that she cast aside to achieve godhood. The timeline and the eyes thing still confuse me though. Does anyone else think there's significance to Marika, Radagon, Miquella, and Malenia never showing they're eyes. I think there is something going on here with Ranni and Melina having one eye sealed. But it's confusing with Messmser's one eye being fake, making him completely eyeless like Markika, Radagon, and Miquella. Also, does anyone have ideas about when Messmer and Melina's births fit on the timeline with Godfrey? I like the idea that Marika is the Gloam Eyed Queen. The flesh she pulls the gold threads from in the trailer looks a lot like Godskin. Perhaps the betrayal was Marika slaughtering a god successfully created from the flesh of the Shamans to aquire the gold within it and become a god herself?
Great point about the children happening at a split. I personally don't think anything really contradicts Messmer and Melina being Godfrey's kids. His other two also have M-names (Magrit and Mohg). People fixate a lot on Marika following the ritual we learn about that Miquella uses, but we see the rituals were clearly very different and the gate of divinity was as well. Every source ever says Godfrey was first elden lord. We can certainly believe that. Marika most likely already had the help of Metyr/the two fingers and Godfrey by the time she was at the gate. I don't think anything goes against your theory. The main objection is that ofc Radagon is a nobody with no history prior to much much later in the timeline, but eeeehhhh who knows? He could be going around being a simple "hero" for all of Godwyn's reign. I like the idea of Marika killing a god. But I also enjoy the idea of Marika being made into a god (she is, after all, the last surviving shaman, it's possible she was "successfully" jarred into a "saint" and turned on the hornsent by taking divinity for helself. But it's also possible that she crashed a ritual with her barbarian husband and killed whoever/whatever was meant to ascend.
I believe Melina picking up the ring scene "Beast Death Marika" (her game file name is daughter of Marika) while I believe beast is referring to Torrent. In the DLC while traversing The Abyss - Torrent will not come out as he is afraid, afraid of the frenzied flame. Descriptions found on items say the Frenzied flame kill spirits for good. On another note- Many items in the DLC help flesh out the picture surrounding these characters and set Melina as the burned/forgotten daughter of Marika/Radagon.
@@apolloisnotashirt In technical sense, it appears so or even hivemind? There are a few items which talk of what the flame is and how accepting it guarantees one a destined death. Godwyn is a peculiar case, we have yet to learn much of why only his soul died but his body did not, Is it still Godwyn at that point? We find his knights but it only speaks of guarding Godwyn's cadaver here and there.
@@KindredSunlight Yeah I'm sad they couldn't just give us enough of an explanation of how the world of The Lands Between works. Lots of aspects and attributes left unexplained such as spirit like peoples like Torrent and Melina, how does one bear children alone is it like divesting oneself of their aspects? Like Marika and Malenia? What about the outer gods? My copium is telling me that they left it like this to explain further in Elden Ring 2
@@thecia9498 He seems to posses only dead people, as he mentions yuria's body was there for him to take as he would not be using it anymore. (died at the end of elenora quest.)
Ok so I got an alternative theory that from what I have seen nobody else has said what if the gloom eyed queen is Daedicar I mean we've seen that losing all of your skin isn't really enough to kill you thanks to Marika sealing off the rune of death and we know that the snake men aka the people who both work with and seem to have a lot of respect for the godskins are the offspring of Daedicar's promiscuity so what if the godskins are just snake men born with aspects of the crucible just like the omen are to humans I guess the only real counter point to this is that Daedicar was supposedly skinned before destined death was sealed but hey if the gloom eyed queen really was a god then who's to say her spirit couldn't keep her body sustained even despite such an injury
So much to think about. I think you've nailed a lot of valid points! What if the God of the lands between is always the same matter, just broken down and reused, like soil when growing a crop or tree? There's so much of the lore that can be contextualized in terms of crop plant genetics, where the demigods get rid of traits by selectively removing them when they regenerate through different acts. At the same time, I would also suggest Marika is also the erdtree. By the time the game starts, it's been burned at least once (see the ashes all over Leyndell), but not destroyed, just like most of the evidence of Marika. Also, Marika has two full arms while hanging from the remains of the rune arc in the erdtree, but when she becomes Radagon, he's missing significantly more of his body, like he's burning away. And finally, if his name is an anagram of "a dragon" then could her name be read as "kimara" or chimera? Since she's capable of being a mix of many things?
oh my god you mentioning blaidd being ranni's divested primal part just made me realize that he is her shadow not just because he follows and protects her or is part of her, but also because he is an embodiment of her Jungian shadow
Maybe I’m looking too deep, but when quoting Marika at the churches, Melina calls her “Queen Marika”. When talking about her mother, she just says “my mother”.
Melina is Marika before she ascended out of the shadow lands Marika had to burn her shadow to exit the shadow lands in contrast to how Miquella had to divest his light to enter the shadow lands. Failing this i think its fair to say that Muriel is responsible for the night of black knives
It would be so cool if Marika resembled Melina before obtaining the golden strands and it will explain why Melina stands out for having different hair color.
14:10 I love how both of these educated guesses were correct in their own way. Messmer with the Base serpent and miquella with St.trina Also the last bit about Snakes makes the random snake skin in the Shaman village strangely make more sense.
I don't think Malenia transformed because of win or lose sense. I think Malenia had to defeat Radahn because of the Miquella. We know that god's fate holding in stars. Radahn was also holding the stars. So Miquella had to abonden his fate. So Malenia wanted to take down Radahn because of Miquella. If Miquella can't complete his fate then how he can help Malenia? SPOILERS FROM THE DLC DOWNBELOW!!!!!!! DON'T READ IF YOU DON'T WANT ANY SPOILERSS🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰 Maybe, curing demi-gods requires more power or even fate. Because Miquella also healed a Radahn warrior (Freya) effected from Scarlet Rot. But more over, Malenia didn't effected simply from Scarlet Rot. The Rot God associeted with herself. She is it's vassal like the Elden Beast with Golden Order. So Miquella has incredibly amount of healing powers but this power even don't enough for the get rid of from Outer God's influence. So, maybe that's why Miquella abonden his flesh. Because maybe ascending to Godhood means can defeat Rot itself. Not even just sealing away maybe? Being god means you are extra powerful of course. The other interesting part is when Melina dies in the fight, she does a healing spell. And If I remember correctly, we can get this incantation in the DLC. Melina also uses incantations like Marika and has healing abilites like Miquella. So there is a highly chance she and Miquella are siblings. Also to the item description Marika tought this incantation who close to her. That incantation also an ancient one. So, Melina and Marika knows themselves maybe even face to face. They are close, so they are not in like Millicent and Malenia relationship. They know each other.
I don't see this mentioned enough: but Melina's face IS the spectral face of Ranni. Whether that's because Radagon is her father and and Radagon is Marika (whatever that means) or if Ranni is adopted there is a connection there. And with Melina having strong ties to St. Trina as well as Destined Death and the GEQ she may well be the embodiment of all of Marika's offshoots. If the GEQ is Marika's sister confined to the realm of shadow, I think Melina is just an amalgamation of the whole fam. Her strawberry blonde hair kinda hints at this union of blonde and red hair too. Now Radagon is hinted to be related to giants. And of course we have the alchemy aspects of the white queen aand red king. I can never quite get a grasp on the lore and what is at the heart of it. I know motherhood is strong (cause i think ER has close ties to BB) and that failed motherhood, rejected children, malformed children, illegitimate children are everywhere. Centered Tarnished has been on top of this for a long time. I may not agree with everything he says but he's definitely approaching the lore from a good perspective. This isn't a story about these fictional people; it's the patterns of all human psyche and an exteriorization and manifestation of our inner world.
The fact that so many people have commented on this video being like, "The DLC says bla bla" baffles me. The dude was making predictions. Its Souls lore, all of this stuff is built on less than a novella's worth of vague item discriptions. Chill.
I think you're hitting the nail. I've been thinking the same thing since finnishing the DLC. The confirmation of Marika's closeness to the fingers, the Godskin's sigil being similar to Metyr and her wounded abdomen that shows an attempt at murder (probably with the fingerslayer blade from Nokron) , the apparent mesh of things Marika is if we are to believe that she is the Saint that the Hornsent were trying to create. And also a more clear understanding of how Empyreans work. And the point of convergence it's exaxctly what you show in your title, and the fact that empyreans change their titles: Miquella, the Unalloyed/Kind/etc, Marika, the Eternal/Marika, the Gloam Eyed Queen.
Ah, sweet. The audio patch released. Great timing on me finishing my comment. I'll make sure to let it play for the view. "Man, I love Radagon anagrams A Dragon. It's hilarious. Still like the idea that Malenia was willing to go all out against Radahn to get the stars moving for Miquella. Perhaps fate of all kinds possibly being bound by the halted stars, though it doesn't negate the possibility of her willingness to bloom containing pride or in some other way regrettable. I do like that idea of Melina being an off-shoot, but I also think it's possible for Marika to have the Gloam Eyed Queen as a daughter. Perhaps she found a role as queen elsewhere while Marika was already queen of someplace only to finally become "The Eternal" queen with the founding of her Elden Ring. I do feel like Gloam-Eyes was distinct from Marika. It's the impression I get as she seemed to have led the Godskins who wielded Black Flame, fire that used to burn like Destined Death, but lost the power to kill gods when Maliketh sealed it. It seems like Maliketh did his job to seal it, and I feel like it's possible the power may have been in hold of Gloam-Eyes. Maliketh opposed her and succeeded. Still, it's interesting to know she was not just empyrean, but also chosen by the Two-Fingers... Oh, pardon me, "It is said..." "
I would say this: after Godwyn died Marika saw the flaw in her own order, her order could not give him a true death. So she understood that her own order had failed her own wants and desires. When she "later" says to Radagon "lets be broken together" she will try to fix her own mistake and let Radagon deal with the broken elden ring. They are both working on fixing something that isnt working properly and from Marikas point of view death has to be incorporated into the elden ring once again because that is the what she perceives to be the problem. I think the gloam eyed queen is aptly named, gloam eyed could simplemeans she sees death, she could had been the queen of death within the golden order before Marika, but before Marika had lost Godwyn she believed the world would be better without a proper death. So she asked Maliketh to take the rune of death from the gloam eyed queen so she could create her own golden order without death. Now the gloam eyed queen has no power in the world anymore but she isnt dead, she is a spirit without a purpose. So queen marika wants death within the world again, she breaks herself and her golden order so her new found purpose can find line again. We know melina doesnt know who she is, that she doesnt remember that fits perfectly with the gloam eyed queen, and her mother is that one that bring her back to life, and there is no life without a purpose to that life, which in other words means, a meaning to life. The frenzied flame represents that life should have no meaning, everything should be reduced down into the same, and if everything is the same you can not have a purpose or a meaning because those things represents something better.
22:24 And that’s not the only thing the Nox/Numen did, look them up, someone like Seluvis is basically their spiritual protégé, they are, by far, the most evil faction in Elden Ring, loreists are ignoring this because a good deal of the ER Western Community thinks “RPG made in Japan, so it has to have the same copypasted gnostic plot”, and just focus on the Greater Will as an analogy for the Demiurge. Bonus point, they win in the endings, whether you side with Marika or Ranni (unless you stop the Elden Ring from being tampered with Goldmask’s rune), and most curious of all, why is Celestial Dew, an item created by the Nox, able to force even an Empyrean like Ranni to forgive your transgressions, in the Erdtree Sanctuary?
Malenia wasn’t salty about losing. The job was to kill Radahn no matter what. 💯 now with the confirmation that we must kill Radahn to enter the DLC. I believe Miquella sent her there to kill Radahn so that the stars could move. And I don’t think Melina is Marika but she was definitely created by her, to help a tarnished that would one day become Elden lord. The Lord that was promised to Miquella, as we heard from the DLC.
After playing the DLC myself, Malenia didn’t try to kill Radahn w her aeonia because “she couldn’t accept defeat”. It was because it was a part of Miquella’s plan and Malenia, being as close as they were, would do anything for him. (not going into specifics unless wanted cause of big spoilers for DLC, just had to say this cause this video is too recent not to have a more accurate take)
@@inkmonarch I see it as the opposite of the theory in the video. By giving into the rot, Malenia gave up her pride (she did this because Miqellas plan was more important to her). Millicent could still represent that part Malenia gave up when she popped.
