Electric Scooter Law: EVERYTHING WE KNOW 

It's embarrassing. Being British used to mean something once, at least I think, before I was born anyway and I'm 33. Government is a joke and ever since Brexit we've become a laughingstock to the rest of the world.

They are just dickheads

Normal state of play for the UK. Too little too late on everything.

at everything !

@@fencer39 yep

Hello "mixed messages given" Oh i know this very well for years now. It's was/is the same in Germany.

Its all just a ploy to scare monger people out of using an alternative to expensive public transport.

This further more this is reinforcing what sadiq Khan is enforcing ULEZ is simply about money and a total scam! because why is he not letting commuters use electric vehicles that are zero emissions?because its about him and his corrupt friends taxing us and controlling us!

@@johnhartmann5875 Nothing mixed in germany anymore, at least regarding to e scooters. In germany i would have to drive illegally a Surron Dirtbike or similar and run from cops if needed, just poor legislation and a poor/bad/anti-human government in action. Since i am that lucky to live in austria, the cops dont even care about my 2000W peak e scooter going 40-45 km/h, and most kids on really high powered scooters (4000W+, 70km/h +,...) also pass the polices looks when they are not driving too fast or doing dangerous stuff. Ohh, and thats without a helmet or any insurance! Poor germany, i hope we dont get the same troubles (aka bad, dangerous and expensive legislation) in austria as poor germany.

agree its in a gray area right now need everything in black and white .

Then cyclists should have insurance and tax as well. Government is building cyclists paths for free for them.

At the moment the law doesn’t allow you to have a vehicle licence plate on an E-scooter, (as they are not recognised).

They do, at least how they are supposed to be driven. Anything in closer range to a car on the road, should be capable of MORE THAN 25 km/h. 20 or 25 km/h and that crazy power limit are dangerous unless you allow it to drive anywhere (except roads with cars etc) I have just a 1000W scooter going 40-45 km/h, and in some occasions uphill, i become a traffic obstacle because i cant go 30 km/h uphill this short path i have to share with cars and the cars there (30 zone) go typically anything from 28-40 km/h

@@harrison00xXx thanks for the input. What is your sauce for this information? Is this part of the road traffic act? Also, the situation your describe is extremely common in the case of pushbikes, especially when going up hill. And they’re expected to be on the road. So I fail to see how scooters pose a different risk than bikes.

They can't earn money on private scooters yet can they. That's the only reason.

They implement ULEZ and all these other things then ban the best and safest alternative to city travel. Unless you rent one of course.

"I guess a certain speed level might be a valid point to demand insurance and licences as it is common with pedelecs above 25 km/h." Yes, but in germany you have demanded insurance and license plates, yet they are allowed to go 20 km/h. I would love if i could register any high power e scooter or electric dirtbike (surron), even if i need a A license (which i have anyways), sadly thats not possible yet so i have to drive illegally with a 45 km/h scooter. Luckily the police in austria dont care even if i drive 40-45 km/h beside them (without helmet...), i guess they are just happy that not every scooter is a traffic obstacle if they have to share short paths of their way with cars.

😂shhh

In the UK they ride them in the pavement where its 1 meter wide. They are not ridden on the street, if you crash into a pedestrian at 20 mph you can break their leg.

Well, i like the situation in austria.... i drive for free and somewhat "legal", even without a helmet, a "slow" performance scooter with 1000W /45 km/h and suspension. It counts somewhat as a e-bike, and as long the police dont see me going 45 km/h i am pretty fine. For anything above 35-40 km/h a full helmet is anyways needed, the wind affects vision at this point. I got once pulled over, the cop first wanted to make his "legality" standpoint and that i get a fee for it, but in the end i showed him my driving profile in the bicycle app that i drive only like 15-25 km/h mostly, for seconds maybe 30 km/h but barely more. He was also test driving my scooter and realised its by far one of the weakest possibel "performance" scooters he saw (well, 1000W single motor, should be expected) I bought this scooter btw 2nd hand and its pretty old (also visible when you look at many parts, the wear and the design), at one police control i got thru by saying i have this scooter that long and it was once legal and i drive anyways not above 25-30 km/h. The ODO also told them like over 7k km on it... so they somehow knew im fine and i know what i do. But as much i enjoy 1000W/2000W peak and its probably also the cause i didnt get caught yet, my next scooter will be for sure Dual Motor, something like 2x2000W and with a big battery unlike the one i have now (48V 10Ah, 10-30 km range). At a tour with a friend around our village with some hills, muddy/bad ways and little offroad fun i realised how WEAK my "2000W peak" scooter is. The friends 2x2000W (2x3600W peak!!!) scooter was just going anywhere you wanted it to with power all the time even in single motor, mine struggled nearly everywhere on bad ground and uphill on bad surface was impossible at all. Dont allow stupid regulations and the people regulate it their own way, as in austria. Its hard to get caught even on a 70 km/h+ scooter if you drive approperiate and by the "rules" in austria, now compare this performance scooter on the streets situation against germany where they have "modern" rules, impossble! Meanwhile we in austria drive safer with our "illegal" scooters.

But why is this a thing? In Game and Computer shops i have seen also sometimes a huge stack of scooters to sell, but mostly boring, slow "legal" ones. What does a Game Shop or Computer Shop to do with micromobility? Or are they just cheap from china and bring good profit?

@@harrison00xXx you answered your own question

@@therealunclevanya So it is because they sell good for a high price and are acquired easily and cheap from china. Now the impossible to count scooter manufacturers with basically the same scooter models make a lot more sense! I thought since the beginning that they are all the same rebranded stuff just with slight variations in features and functions (lights, blinkers, grips, display and throttle units, handlebar,…) I personally drive a 2000W e scooter with a max speed of 45 km/h, an older 2021 model with already 7k km on it and still going strong. Whats coming soon is 2 new tires… one full rubber tire for the rear and a tubeless air tire on the front as well new brake pads and probably because of age and rust new discs as well. Today i even talked to some police officers and they even told me i can drive this 45km/h scooter legally since its below 4000w peak because i have the A license. I really like that, i thought im illegally on the road until today lol. But today i had a helmet, they also made clear that helmet is mandatory for scooters above 25km/h top speed no matter if i also drive slower than 25.

@@harrison00xXx they are not legal at all in the UK on our streets unless you rent one, you cannot own one and use it in the public highway

@@therealunclevanya Who cares about legality? If something is unnecessarily "illegal", its legal to be illegal!

There's a few that like to ruin it for the many. 🤔😉

@@Zodliness So true.

Its madness to accept insurance/tax for a TOY. Those 15-20 km/h scooters were once kids toys sold for 200€ and they were driven daily on the pedestrian walks with like 5 km range (lol, toys, yes!) I would accept insurance/tax only in the case of a registered HIGH POWER e scooter, e bike or elecric dirtbike (such as Surrons). I would love to drive my scooter for cheap legally with 45 km/h or upgrade to a faster scooter with 5000W+ and 70 km/h top speed since i have anyways the motorcycle license. Its just a shame that the actual legislation in austria doesnt allow anything beside air tires when it comes to anything faster than 25 km/h, something i want to avoid entirely (i have only front air tires, back is honeycomb airless). Good suspension makes airless tires also acceptable for high speeds and increases reliability a lot.

LOL. There's the same confusion in Spain. Two sets of policemen have told me on separate occasions that: a) I mustn't ride my 27 mph road-legal e-seated-scooter on the pavement, and b) I mustn't ride it on the road. I have to sneak about back roads in peak traffic, which is a pleasure anyway... 😎

Just one of the reasons why your road death rate is three times higher...:/

This will end up in some sort of tax or money-making scheme. We will have to pay for breathing soon...

Its funny since even in austria we are just fine with proper scooters, meanwhile the island monk.... erm "brits" are that messed up, same goes for germany, our neighbours btw! Officially most of our e scooters are illegal, but realistically the police dont mind people on scooter driving safe and "slow", even if we talk about scooters going 70 km/h and more. In germany the experience we have in austria would be impossible because you would have to pay a huge fee, your (expensive) scooter would get confiscated and probably even lose your drivers license as soon any police controls you. Who in his right mind even thought about power limits and stupidly slow 20 km/h instead of making a proper legislation including something like a small license (or A/B license) needed. With such a "controlled" legislation where you have to make a small course/training including a PROPER (2000W+!) scooter/EUC you could easily allow them to go 45 km/h which would make it much safer since you sometimes have to share roads with cars going from 30 km/h in the best case to 50-60 km/h in the worst. I just hope that we can some day register any electric vehicle, doesnt matter if high powered scooter going 45 km/h or 70 km/h or a electric dirtbike going nearly 100 km/h, as long we can enjoy a silent, fast and fun way for transport.

I am an old man living on a Spanish-speaking atlantic desert island who committed to two electric seated fat tired scooters with the last of his stash. Safe, one would have thought, but the fuzz are well-equipped and alert. I am always stopped if traffic is off peak hours. I am told "don't ride it on the pavement". The next time it will be "don't ride it on the road". And so on. Registration is even more troublesome, obviously. @@harrison00xXx

While getting fit enough to maintain 20mph most used to gain experience. The stronger muscles and ligaments help reduce damage during crashes (the endorphins also helped with the pain). If at 17 folk can buy that speed without doing a CBT or even a cycling proficiency test I fear e-scooters and e-bikes will become the new 'donor cycles'.

30 mph, but yes! I drive a 45 km/h (so about 30 mph?!) scooter daily, partially on the road, mainly on bike ways. Since i live in hilly areas, there is no way around a stronger scooter than allowed anyways. Damn, even police saw me once going 45 km/h where 50 is allowed, no helmet, no license plate because its a "e bike"... well they didnt care. They were probably happy that i was not a traffic obstacle as the legal scooters are. But where i live we have much hills, barely anyone drive legal scooters here except the city rats. Most scooters go at least 40 km/h, majority of them have like 3000W total power minimum and go mostly between 50-90 km/h (and yes, they also pass the police check, without helmet or license plate!). I guess in the city its a different story, but again... I need the scooter as well for my hometown where i need, again, more power than allowed! City cops cant expect me to buy 2 scooters, one for trips at home and one "toy" scooter to take into the city.

You are talking about the British government under a Tory leadership with 5 prime ministers in as many years? We are in this mess because they do NOT reach out, or think, or make any attempt for a decision that could even remotely make a positive impact for the population. Especially if there is nothing in it for them personally. Scooters have no lobby to grease the process.

But what good is "not stopping for the pigs" as you so eloquently put it, when you are limited to 15mph & an unmarked police car spots you? in reality your chances of evasion by "putting your foor down" is hardly likely to help you ..we need a blind eye to well ridden, observant, escooter road users who are limting themselves to 15.5mph, polite & not presenting themselves as a future problem, unfortunately we don't get the opportunity to do that based on the "illegal everywhere" mentality of the law which only favours those it draws licensing money from (baby cash cow) the longer this plays out (the it's a fad that if ignored will go away, wait them out mentality) the harder it becomes to resolve, also not helped by the fact that it is overseen by tory chair whose only connection is the fact they represent Milton Keynes (thus a very planned regulated city with bikeways & alt transport access from day one, which is pretty much standalone in city design over a time period of 1000 years here in the uk, it is far more advanced than the 1930's garden city design(ation) & the numpties neither talk, nor consider E-scooters outside of built up areas which as a countryside user is a completely different animal in terms of safety (oft relating to the limiting max speed compared to slower moving ice vehicles in built up towns & cities) ..time to refresh your heads with the 2 parlimentary PED recorded meetings from several years ago now, as that is all we have to go on for supposed "progress" the videos are archived & are presumably available still.

Austrian E scooter rider here. The law is unclear, the police knows those "legal" scooters suck and are dangerously slow - so they just accept "illegal" e scooter drivers going moderate and "within the law" on the road and bike paths. I drive since 3000 km a 1000W / 45 km/h e scooter and im fine, police looks at you typically because its a bigger scooter with suspension, but they realise fast enough that its not anything particularly "fast" they see, Single Motor, lighter build, thin deck,...

Not once police have "overseen" me going 40 km/h without a helmet on the bike path beside them, they have just accepted defeat on e scooters, especially because of the ridicilous laws, at least yet.

How long did it take to hear about your court date from being stopped?

@jish194 The court day was given to me the same day at the police station, I can't remember how long I was waiting for the so-called "hearing," but it was about 2-3 months. Make no mistakes, you don't go to court to defend yourself, you just go there to hear the sentence.

I'm in Manchester and fortunately can say the same. 3+ years myself, too. My brother however who also lives here had his taken from him with a £300 fine and 6 points on his licence. The main difference being he rode his daily though the city centre to work and I don't. So avoid city centres anybody who reads this, they've always been a hotbed for e-scooter crackdowns.

In most cases, they won't bother you, but it's that chance of getting a fine or your scooter being confiscated that puts a lot of us off buying an e-scooter. It doesn't help that the rules on them are not that clear for most that it's become a gray area. If we had clearer understanding on the rules on e-scooters, more of us would likely buy them and that would help to free up the roads for car users, especially as many trips that are quite local of just a few miles are fine on an e-scooter. The current rules scare a lot of us off even thinking about buying an e-scooter, and until there are some clearer rules in place where they can be used in public space where they would be far more useful than on private land, then the government is kinda making it difficult for the people to clean up their act when it comes to the environment. The shocking thing is on all this is how slow the UK government is on all this, many other governments are coming up with clearer rules on e-scotters, the UK it feels it's falling well behind other, so until we have some clean, easy to understand rules that you can use e-scooters in public places, where it more useful, then I've got no interest in buying one, because being able to only use them on private land makes them almost useless and being a gray area in public where you can get a fine or have your scooter confiscated from you, doesn't exactly encourage its use. Everyone is being punished because of a few reckless people out there, and in my case, I don't mind if there's an age limit, 16 or 18 to ride them, I don't mind being tested with it or wearing a helmet, but until we know where we stand, I'm not interested in them.

@@paul1979uk2000 The rules are quite clear .if your not on private land or if your not rideing a rented scooter .You are breaking the law.Their is no ''gray area ''....It's not fair .I agree ....i ride an ei-ke which is totaly legal . But the law not difficult to understand .as soon as they are legal i will buy one ,but untill then i will remain a law abiding citizen .

Sorry, are you complaining about them not upholding the law, or thanking them for being incompetent? I’m confused. (As a keen fan of E-scooters myself I suggest you keep your head down buddy).

@@philtucker1224 thanking them for realising its a stupid law

Yes, but not in cycle lanes.

Do you use a traditional invalid mobility buggy currently?

​@philtucker1224 no, our house just doesn't have enough space for one and also we have high steps so that would be an issue. However an escooter could just go behind the dining room table or in the spare room.

@@riggedforepic6293 Hi Buddy, just a tip (if you are already a blue badge holder) your local authority should be able to construct an access ramp for you suitable for an invalid buggy or wheel chair, you may not need it yet, I don’t know but you may be glad of it as you get older and it should be supplied without any cost to you. Just saying but best wishes to you either way.

yeah infrastructure ill be lacking councils are cash strap been government idea for while might change with new gov coming in also got problem of once a Council does put it in get same people complaining about potholes etc...but really if scooter get people to work and to pop out from house to get a cup off coffee it il help the local economy regardless

Helmet should be mandated if you go above 40 kmh for sure, but yes, up to 25 km/h you should fall 100% under e bikes and its laws in ANY case, so no helmet. I personally would even suggest you should be allowed to drive a fast performance e scooter as well, just stick to damn safety rules and acceptable speeds and a fast scooter is as dangerous as a slow one.

Langweilig. ich komme auch mit meinen 1000W (2000W peak) E Scooter der 45 km/h geht und fast jede Steigung schafft. Leider nur ein 48V 10Ah Akku, also ziemlich klein. Da ich sowieso mehrheitlich "nur" 20-30 km/h fahre weil der Akku sonst nur für 10 km taugt bei Topspeed und Dauervollgas, hat mich bisher auch kaum eine Polizeistreife schneller als 25 km/h fahren sehen, vielleicht mal 30,... Bei 20-25 km/h Durchschittstempo mit 40 km/h peaks und 50-70m Steigung komme ich schon um die 15-20 km, wenn ich nur im 1. Gang mit 20 km/h Limit rumgurke mit auch stark reduzierter Beschleunigung auch locker 30 km auf ebener Strecke. Die wenigen Situationen wo mich Polizisten kontrolliert haben am Scooter waren: 1) Sie wollten mir nur sagen wie toll sie die Nachbau Blinker eines Mopeds finden welche am Tag sichtbar sind im Vergleich zu den originalen (zu dunklen) Blinkern bei den meisten Rollern 2) Andere Polizisten, andere Zeit mit bereits mehr "Anbau" am Roller. Namentlich Lautsprecher (Stereo!), DC DC Wandler (zum schnellladen des Rollers oder den Rollerakku als Energiequelle mit Variabler Spannung und Stromgrenze zum anzapfen), 2 Handyhalterungen, Werkzeugakkus etc. Die wollten mich nur aufmerksam machen dass es gefährlich sei mit lauter Musik mit dem Roller zu fahren und haben sich für die Werkzeugakkus, die vielen Schalter und eben wie ich Radio/Verstärker/BT Empfänger etc fix an dem Ding verkabelt habe (so eine Class-D Verstärker/BT/Radio/3,5mm Line In Receiver Einheit, simpel, billig, klein, braucht kaum Strom) 3) Einer meiner ersten Begegnungen am Roller mit der Polizei... er hat mich nur darauf hingewiesen dass der Roller illegal sei und gefragt ob ich das nicht wüsste. Da blieb es bei einer mündlichen Verwarnung, vor allem weil er gemerkt hat dass der Roller nicht mal sooo stark ist (darf der Polizist überhaupt einen illegalen Roller fahren auf öffentlichen Wegen?!) Ich habe auch meine Routenaufzeichnung im App beendet und dem Polizisten gezeigt dass ich bestenfalls kurzzeitigst (und das auf Radwegen ohne irgendjemanden in der Nähe...) 28, vielleicht 30 km/h gefahren bin, sonst wegen Reichweite und Akku schonen eigentlich kaum über 25 km/h komme bei der täglichen Nutzung. Er muss ja nicht wissen dass ich öfters doch mal etwas Spaß will und auch habe, sofern es die mickrigen 1000W Dauerleistung erlauben (eh nicht so toll!) Und ich muss dazu sagen, mein Roller hat den Look der Performance Scooter jenseits der 4000W peak und der großen Federung, nur eben das billigste Modell mit kleinstem Akku, LEIDER NUR Single Motor nicht wie üblich Dual Motor sowie auch praktisch die "geringste" illegale Leistung welche maximal so schnell wie ein Moped/45 km/h geht. Meistens komme ich trotzdem durch bei der Polizei und die beachten mich nicht während ich mit 10-25 km/h fahre.

The cyclist frothing at the mouth part, did you stick around? KEVIN'S AND KAREN'S out there calling the cops when they feel like it is ridiculous, get the laws right then less idiot phone calls to police

It doesn't make any sense to keep e-scooters below the ebikes. Some bright spark must have had an idea to keep us safe.

Escooters don't need to faster than 8mph.

@@mikewade777 They do. You don’t get to decide my needs.

@@steveo4991 Then you don't need an e scooter

@@mikewade777 I do. Again, you don’t get to tell me my needs you absolute clowns arse.

Is that a motor scooter?

An idiot on a mountain bike pulling wheelies is WAY more dangerous than an escooter riding sensibly

@@sygad1 I didn’t say it wasn’t

max 4mph

Unless there is a cycle with flow pavement, it's an offence to be on the pavement even with a regular push bike nuisance or not.

@@andreirusu6998 That is my exact point: If you're not committing a nuisance then it is legal to cycle on the pavement. Pretty much nobody realises this. Mr Boateng, minister for transport in 1999 said: “The introduction of the fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible cyclists who sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of traffic and who show consideration to other pavement users when doing so." That is why, as I already said, it is specifically worded "committing nuisances", not simply riding on footpaths.

Blinkered view ricky, there will be far less problems if folk look at proper stance when riding, use basic turning blinker lights to indicate with, as an ebike rider & snowboarder a lot of the problem for the avereage new rider is poor stance & failing to understand how the whole weighted rider / scooter combo changes when turning, hand signalling etc, seasonal changes etc, helmets do not save people from stupid moves, knowledge does, you appear to want to make light transport bulkier by FORCING helmet wearing into law for cyclists (which it isn't now) I would have to see a medical exemption for that (more hoops to jump through) NB if folk are concerned for safety & legality, then why no police action on the 1000's of hacked / modded e-bike food delivery bikes that fall under "pedal assist" but clearly are not used in that manner, I did report this to the twats overseeing e-scooter legistlation possibilities (m/keynes tory chair) but ZERO reply ...because pointing out the obvious in an agenda to stall, ignore & carry on before (a cock blocking tactic) relies on doing their own thing with blinkers on, result (if any) messed up and dubious as before, the longer the uncertainty the more wholly crap escooters will be bought creating a bigger headache to resolve IF legalised, ..helmets are no excuse for observant riding, I have encountered more risk riding my ebike at 5 mph or less when turning on seasonally wet roads than on my escooter mile for mile, a helmet did not protect me from the road nor the physio (I was using my ebike FOR physio as was) my escooter, ridden properly allowed for me to brake & step off, compared to my ebike sliding from under me (I was already in a low gear, using pedal assist because it was both dark & a car was behind me) it would have been a foot down scenario if on an escooter as a direct scenario comparison, something not possible when seated on the bike to prevent a fall, which people urging helmets do not necessarily consider, traction & slippage when taking off rather than already in motion or topping out at 15.5mph which does not require a helmet for an ebike with the same max speed , so less of the badly thought out demands for helmets to be compulsory please, If you can hire an escooter from a scheme with little to no proof of presumed rider competence (ie having a drivers license does not relate to experience of safely using a slower mode of transport such as a bike then it does not mean you are competent to ride a new unfamiliar technology such as an escooter, an ego may say otherwise, you cannot act like a car driver on a 25kg escooter like you do when in a car, but people do "because it is a bit of fun" (as witnessed by myself encountering ignorant tourists holding up buses / trams / cars in berlin during lockdown, lacking nous & basic politeness & especially road sense. ..throws up all sorts of complexities as to how we go forward, at least least someone who has bought one will know how it works, leans, limitations etc, compared to the "casual"(ty) user of a hire (not mine so I don't care) element of society skewing figure that govt are casting the net for in order to make a supposed decision that has been sat on way beyond any feasible excuse that covid restrictions may have once presented! Ride safe, it is the only chink of hope of a positive outcome in this whole mess overseen by besuited politicians whose experience is likely no more than a photo opportunity with an esccoter, NOT AS AN EXPERIENCED RIDER.

@Sh1tfaceMagee-db3px thanks for the very lengthy response. You misunderstood what I was saying. I am not calling for mandatory helmet wearing on bicycles. I don't think helmets should be mandatory on bicycles. All I was trying to point out is that helmet wearing IS NOT mandatory on bicycles, but the suggestion in the video was that one of the requirements for riders of e-scooter would be to wear a helmet. The point being an e-bike or regular bike can go considerably fast than an e-scooter. I think it is up to the individual to decide if they want to wear a helmet or not. Personally I ride regularly on road and off and always wear a helmet as my brain is important to me and i want to protect it. I take your point that you can brake and step off an e-scooter in an emergency, which you can't on a bike ( I know from bitter experience) also you said that e-bikes have the same maximum speed as an e-scooter 15.5mph. They do not. The assistance stops at 15.5mph. The maximum speed is whatever the rider has the power for. I still stand by my statement that e-scooters are unstable. I have tried one on a hire scheme in Canterbury Kent, and found it difficult to ride and unstable. This is due to a very small wheel size and a standing rider causing a very high center of gravity.

It's not a vehicle, It's a rider stupid behavior!

I can't believe I didn't think of that one 😀

Some lazy, drunken and in many other ways intoxicated people in power positions made just bad decisions harming everyone with it. Even the police in austria knows that... as long you are not driving (dangerously) fast or inappropriate they dont care about high powered scooters. A friend with a 2x2000W scooter which is going like 70 km/h easily also passed police controls, the few he had since he also barely goes faster than 30 or 40 lets say. I got myself only a 1000W /45 km/h model as my first scooter in hope the police will care about it less than really high powered ones, but my next one will be for sure a much stronger one and probably dual motor, just for damn uphill and offroad fun.

Our Government holds power for five years, it has a long list of bills and amendments to bills, that it has to deal with during those five years. Bills get first and second readings in the House of Commons, those bill then go to the House of Lords to be amended, tidied up, then they come back with amendments. The House of Commons then reviews the amendments and has a vote to accept or reject the amendments, then the Bill is presented with or without amendments and a vote is taken, if accepted, that Bill then becomes Law, if the Bill is rejected, then it falls and will not re-appear during the remainder of that Government. It is an utterly archaic way to pass laws and is the reason why so many laws don't get passed and also, why so many Laws never disappear.