Sounds like Andrei should poke his contact to drop you a line... I had no idea about there being a patent involved but that explains why we've had an FFB wasteland for over a decade.
Would totally love to see some cooperation here! Especially regarding the Telemetry FFB thing. This needs to be much more diverse, on a per-module base and not just prop, jet an copter. VPForce has it on a per-module/aircraft basis and this is what MOZA also needs to do, ideally together with ED and their 3rd parties that have aircraft modules out there. And I would also apprciate to get a release date. Ordered a few days after FS Expo and the shop said "ships in 4 to 6 weeks". Those are clearly more than over at this point, but apparently the thing (well, the software) needed or needs some more time in the oven. Can't wait for the thing and I somehow don't want to start getting into new modules like the Phantom and the Hook (heck, even the F-15E, bascially) with my current setup, even if it always has had FFB.
@@CakePrincessCelestia If you check the video you see there are profiles per module/aircraft under the DCS dropdown selection. This wasn’t visible in an earlier iteration of the Cockpit software, as seen on Jabber’s channel, who posted a video about the AB9 a week or so ago. The jumps Moza seemingly have made in the past few weeks are looking promising so far.
Regarding the strength needed to fly warbirds. Having the base mounted center between your legs will give you better leverage to pull on the stick. If needed its also easier to pull two-handed. Would even go so far to say, that mounting it center is healthier as well, since you will be pulling from your elbows and not your wrists.
I cannot afford the force feedback joystick, so I am just here to see little Petrovic. And you finally show him. FINALLY! In fact, you took so long to show him, he is big already! Bastard :)
I could never afford the VPForce Rhino. AFAIK you either give them CC infor or they'll send you a a PP invoice and you can't pay on interest rate though the latter, but when buying from a shop, I typically can select pay later options, including financing for up to 24 months, which is what I did. Yes, it costs more that way, but I suck at saving up almost a grand for anything, but can easily get away with 30 bucks less each month for a period of time... XD And I need that thing ASAP. Don't wanna wait for another two years until I possibly could have saved the cash the same way :P
In fact force feedback for flightsims is not a new topic and had already been supported by joysticks from Microsoft and Logitech more than 25 years ago. Unfortunately this hardware had been discontinued 😢 and finally this very immersive type of game support has been forgotten...until now 😊
@@hipgames Great that you mentioned VR there. I always wanted to have the _forte_ VFX-1 as a kid to fly Jane's ATF, DiD's Super EF2000 and other sims with that... and then flight sims were the reason to get a CV1 ind 2019 for just 250 bucks and the guy who sold it to me somehow kept it in mint condition even though he was daily driving it for three years. What a change! I immediately was able to AAR and HIGE which I had tons of trouble with before. Also, taking off the warbirds and landing them without a gajillion of bounces was so much easier all at a sudden. Took me almost a year to get Half-Life Alyx when it was released to get into roomscale games and it required me to get a Quest to be able to fully enjoy that due to space constraints, but I'll never look back. Playing VR games has been like the good old Amiga and PC-DOS age, everything was new and awesome! Only played very few really great pancake games in the last two decades and never liked the path they took with game as a service, microtransactions, subscriptions, lootboxes and whatnot. I mostly enjoyed indie games then... and VR is just like those, just better with the whole move and get immersed element. Especially Eye of the Temple was just absolutely breathtaking. I can only recommend playing that if you got a 2x2m space and ideally a Quest or any other wireless headset if you even just remotely like Indiana Jones stuff.
Hi Petrovich.. I hope you and Natasha have an easy time helping Andre with his FF-dependency issues. Please let him know we all love him and understand his situation completely. Take care of him please And by the way, if you manage to take the joystick back from him, don't forget to put it online as a giveaway. We are all waiting...
Thank you for this review. Looks promising, curious if they are going to demonstrate it at the next Flight Sim Weekend in the Netherlands in 2025. The feel could seal the deal and justify the price.
Thank you. A really informativ and entertaining review. I have the VPforce Rhino a few months now and I can say that I never will go back to springs&cams bases. It’s the same like with VR & flatscreens.
Welcome to the FFB Elite! I never could use the TMWH stick because of this, having the Sidewinder FFB2 still rocking after over two decades. Never could justify getting a CAM base either... waiting for my MOZA base now (will pay within the next two years, which probably would not have been an option with the Rhino) and then I will be peeking at FFB pedals already (heard there was an FFB mod for the Crosswinds in the comments on the last video IIRC, or it might have been on Jabbers' vid) and I want to see FFB throttles as well in the future with dynamic detents, axis bands and friction levels... ^^
Where did you get the dispatch date from? They have turned completely silent for me, only dropping regular newsletters since I ordered at around the same time. I don't follow (a)social media stuff, though, except for here if you'd call YT that as well.
Most modern combat aircraft like the F16 and F18 have fly by wire and you would never feel any feedback through the stick. However, for Warbird (And Maybe Helo) pilots, this is one heck of a step up to what we currently have.
True, true 👍 but with that being said... the feel is still amazing. Rather get it and tweak it so for the Fly by wire jets you dont...and for the others... you do! But thats me
forget the ffb effects they are secondary at the most, the best part of ffb is the ability to customize the feel via software without needing to disassemble parts of the base & swap cams/springs etc. Dampening without sticktion, high forces on the axis, ffb is the best total game changer.
Couldn't agree more...but you know how it goes, with all great things and changes, the naysayers will jump in to counter it. Best advice, try for yourself if you can and remember to think as rational as you can
@@hipgames I guess the TM compatible extensions will all work on this base as well, but I'm also interested to see the Z-Axis extension. Will probably get it later on for my space simming stuff. I somehow can't doe Elite:Dangerous with a full HOTAS, I played it with my Precision 2 stick back then instead, but some of the buttons were deteriorating, so I tried it with my flight setup of the FFB2, MFG pedals and TMWH throttle instead and basically turned from hero to zero, couldn't even dock up properly anymore XD I actually bought a T16kM only because of this... but gimme a real stick with a Z axis and I'll use that instead ^^ BTW, I've been using the Freestyle Pro gamepad with a gyro sensor for games like Freespace 2, X-Wing Alliance and alike back in the day. Felt "spacier" than having a stick sitting on the table... tried the same with the PS3 controller with E:D and it sucked, because you actually need the yaw axis there even though it's way less sensitive. X-Wing games had yaw and roll combined into the X axis and a button for roll only and Freespace also had that button and I just would use pitch and yaw. But that never worked with the ultra sluggish yaw in Elite:Dangerous... XD And then, much later, I switched to No Man's Sky in Veeeee fricken Orre. And guess what? You grab a twist stick there that has the Z axis. Works great... ^^
I will, you need to have the game installed in order to showcase the profiles...Star Citizen wasn't on my end, time is very valuable and had to bail on keeping an updated SC on my drives. Will check it out soon and come back with a special video FAQ
i have one question. does the stick lose all of its tention like in the f4 phantom before starting up the hydraulics? or does it keep the tention. Same for other planes.
My old FFB2 does that when it's modelled like that for the planes. Haven't tried the F-4 yet (as I want to start with the Moza base), but I guess the best example for that are the planes in Il-2 Great Battles, especially the WW1 ones (alternatively, in Rise of Flight). Their FFB is absolutely stunning. You got a completely limp stick cold and dark, then the elevator force comes up with the engine running and it even changes its strength based on how much thrust you got, so it's pretty weak at idle, but stiffens up the more you push it. Then, with increasing speed, the ailerons also get their force applied and it all depends heavily on airspeed then as well - you basically will be able to feel how fast you're going precisely enough after a while.
As Cake said it's more of a sim/software thing. The motors only do what the software tells them to do & it can only real what telemetry the sims sends out
great video as always 😀 Did Moza say anything about the use of extensions? Can the forces be adjusted with like one ,,master slider“ or would you need to tweak everything manually? Looking forward to getting my hands on this 😁
@@hipgames yeah just watched it again, that means i can increase the forces to counter the higher lever force of a longer extension, great stuff. Its gonna be a durability test for my 20€ amazon extension currently in use with my thrustmaster warthog 😆
@hipgames ty for reply. I use a few different programs and heard this app was overwriting the script. Things like SRS and Tacview, as well as some win wing stuff.
Hi everyone, I'm having trouble finding any specific information about AB9 FFB compatibile flight sticks of so called third parties. Can anyone point me to these information?
What are you using for your TM viper panel? I have a similar set up TM warthog throttle on a desk clamp mount. Looking for a desk mount for the viper panel as well
I am about to place a video showcasing my setup with the Warthog and the Viper panel. Its one of my best ideeas and great quality of life for most modules.
@@hipgames awesome looking forward to it! for sure I would love an F-15 throttle but the WH works so no reason for me to spend $$. Was very happy TM made the viper panel separate from the throttle just haven’t found a Viper Panel mount yet so it’s sitting on my desk.
I don't think it is bcz of the patent troll, or at least it's not the sole or even main reason. It was the dark age of flight sim since the golden age (around the late 90s and early 2000s) passed, the ordinary population just had lost interest in (serious) flight sim bcz they had more fast-food style digital toys to play with, so the market had shrunk. Various factors have played a role in the renaissance of flight sim, perhaps including MSFS and the pandemic. Then it comes the VPForce who I believe more or less has brought some breeze into this tomb of FFB full of stale air, and has led the renaissance of FFB itself. I mean, there were FFB devices from brands like Brunner all the time, who is one of the vendors making FFB devices for the commercial/flight training market all the time as well. I don't think they paid fees to that troll, and there are lots of ways to make FFB/control loading system. On the other hand, FFB devices are fundamentally more expensive than the ordinary "hardcore" spring flight sim gears which itself is already an even more niche market due to the price. Software devs wouldn't bother supporting the niche of a niche, so this makes the death spiral even more unrecoverable. Naturally no vendors were interested in stepping into it (DNM, lots of them don't or can't care about it even now), until some hero(es) shows up.
On topic, I preordered mine this morning. Off topic, how does your Pimax handle the light from the holder you have it mounted on? I burnt the lenses from my first VR headset due to leaving it in bright sunlight,
Leaving it in the sunlight was a bad thing... AFAIK any artificial light isn't strong enough to do the same, maybe unless it's a mega strong flashlight that you'd point straight at the lenses or some laser pointer... always make sure to turn the lenses away from the windows or over them or the whole thing up. And most importantly, tell everyone who you're living with about that also. Proceed with extra care if you got pets, especially cats as the thing might up ending differently positioned as you left it. BTW sunlight coming at the camera lenses is OK.
Can't agree more, but voices may say I am invested due to my colaboration with Moza, but I will do my best to try winwing...they just don't speak to us until so far
Few things tho.. You cannot feel the aerodynamic force from the control surfaces of a full (hydraulic) power control aircraft, it's one way; so artificial feel systems have been made for simulating the control force on those aircraft IRL. Sure, some of them that are equipped with Q-feel, bellow system(based on changes of dynamic pressure) or bobweights(based on changes of G) etc will let you feel more than just spring & cam, but many of the current popular fighters in DCS shouldn't have much of those. And most if not every heli in DCS has force trim system that centers the stick with springs unless the force trim RELEASE switch is pressed, so a simple loose stick won't work. I've heard from other reviewers that the force trim release function is still WIP. Lastly, to fully simulate the pulling force of a highspeed diving warbird, 9Nm is not enough..even for the later warbirds/early jets that use (hydraulic) boost system. It's said that F-86A requires about 100lbf for recovering from a transonic dive. That said, a well built FFB base beats the current spring bases any day even when it was just simulating spring & damper.
Maybe they need to include a Grip with the base at $600 euro ill be passing thank you much, Also from owning every FORCE FEEDBACK Joystick every Made I can tell you right now at some point the Gears used to push Feedback will go bad at some time or the gears themself will be worn down.
Interesting aspect you describe there but then the same would apply to all FFB wheels no? I am no expert by all means, I will investigate though if that is the case with Moza's racing equipment.
I've been using the MS Sidewinder FFB2 almost daily since 2003 and the gears are still fine. But I only use 66% spring force in DCS and 20% shake force. Feels less gear-grindy that way also.
@@CakePrincessCelestia You don't use it enough to actual put strain on it someone who streams putting in 4-6 hours every day take my word you will burn them up I still have my Logitech set from back in the day that come with peddles and throttle but the gears are junk in stick so can't use it unless you want the stick sloppy lose the entire time
There is no comparison between older generation force feedback back sticks and this new gen. The AB9 and all future high end designs do not use gears to transmit forces. They use belt driven gimbals. Just as old logitech FFB driving wheels used gears and higher end FFB wheels used belt drive. Just about all FFB wheels now use direct drive motors but that isnt possible for joysticks because they move in two axis. Edit: Well, that isn't 100% true but in practice it is or the base would need to be impactically massive. Belts can wear just like anything else but in this application I would expect them to need replacing due to aging of the rubber before wear ever was an issue. That would be many many years if not decades. If they do need to be replaced its a pretty simple task. Other than that you just have bearings and the life of the motors themselves.
@@grasstreefarmer Fair point, it's like switching from a G27 to a T300 RS GT. Direct Drive would only really work on yokes for the aileron axis as I would imagine. Funnily, I just bought a G923 like half a year ago as I didn't know how much I'd enjoy driving at all and didn't want to spend quite a significant amount of money more to get a decent Moza setup with 3 pedals and a shifter instead. I "just" paid around 320 for my Logitech setup. And since I'm only driving trucks and don't have that much FFB there, it's good enough. Using my FFB2 with FF Shifter to get a second stick to basically have twin stick shifting with the range and split buttons mapped to it accordingly. There's even a Spicer transmission mod out there with the glorious 6x4 one included, but I made my own custom setup before finding that. Having the possibility to use an FFB stick as a shifter is actually great and I hope Moza will see that opportunity to make decent telemetry based FFB to simulate the gears and the grinding properly and just put a good Eaton Fuller grip on it. But to be fair, the better technology does make a difference in how granular the effects can be transmitted and especially how gear-grinding it feels, but the original sticks are good enough still to have FFB at all. But to be fair, I literally have been waiting for some kind of upgrade for over two decades and all that made it to the market for a short while was the G920 garbage thing, the utterly expensive Brunner CLS-E that I heard drops out after a while due to cooling issues and the still quite expensive VPForce Rhino, with an up to 2 years waiting time... it's so great to see the major players in the segment finally come up with FFB bases at last! Because the competition will only make all of those better in the long term.
