Envoy XUV is BACK...and I CAN'T FIX IT?! (Power Roof FAIL) 

45 years ago I had a '77 Volkswagen Rabbit with a sunroof operated by a manual hand crank. Positive open and closed with infinate stop positions in between. Stop closed position was indicated when the crank wouldn't turn any more. The learn procedure involved remembering to turn the crank counter clockwise to open and clockwise to close.

Who else is addicted to his videos?

"Complexity is the enemy of reliability." Some things never change.

Asking Keith for help is an admirable trait on Ivan’s part. Everything in life is a learning experience.

Wow! The level of complexity to perform a simple task is astounding on these vehicles.

GM and Honda both seem to have this calibration/learn mentality that everything must be in just the right place, and happen in just the right order, with just the right conditions, in order to even attempt the learn, and both manufacturers absolutely love to conveniently leave details out of their documentation, and have the scantool only give you a failure message, not a reason why. In '04, I get it; limited data availability and transfer speeds. But I've had 2023s pull this garbage on me, and there's no excuse. :(

If I cared about the roof working, which I don't, I think at this point I'd be breaking out an Arduino and perf board and create my own module. However, there's old school systems like this like the electric flaps in my plane that are all mechanical switches including limit switches NO microcontroller. Right now that's looking very attractive.

Thank you for confirming my persistant distaste for sunroofs. The extra expense at some point has nightmare written all over it.

Hot coffee and a Pine Hallow video, it’s gonna be a great morning 😉

Ivan.. May not matter at this point, but at 23:30 when you tried to do the relearn for the last time, the engine was not running. Keep up the great videos

That missing ground on the relay is the key. A switch, sensor or other module is not connecting it to ground. A full and correct wiring diagram would certainly be helpful.

Oh, you didn’t learn the rear window before trying to learn the roof! Wow, that’s crazy lol. Tech 2 win is not 100% identical to Tech2, of course geez. What a pain…😅 Fuzz in the mechanism, of course!! haha…..and its broke again wtf

Well, though it seems a bit crazy to most, if the owner wants it back to original and He is paying for it, good for Him. Makes for some interesting content and schooling! 👍👍🇺🇸

It was nice to see Keith in action again.

Thank God for guys like Keith. If I had a problem with my unit, I would start with SMA, then Ivan, then Keith. Keith understands these over engineered projects, and doesn't quit untill he finds the trouble. What a blessing one has to work on these nightmares.

The owner must be very honored to have 2 of the very best working on his car, can't wait to see what happens next..

Ivan Foiled by a piece of batting? This one has been interesting, possibly craft stuff got shut in gate hmm honey! 🤣😂 Thanks Keith brought me back to old times when you 2 did the cars together 🙂

You guys have aloy of patience for this one. This is one case I would pass on once i got to the point where you did Ivan. I admire you for your refusal to give up on a vehicle.

Well Ivan when you and Keith have not been able to resolve this issue taking it to the dealer would have been a waste of time and money, can't wait for part 2

As Eric O says ,"Its time to flush this toilet !"

Wow! Now that it actually worked everyone will need to know why it stopped after one day. The challenge is on! Great video!

A fresh pair of eyes spotted something else causing the problem. What a crazy system to beat two great techs.

Oh my Lord when I read that it stopped working the next day I laughed so hard.. Poor guy..

One amazing video. GM sure made this complicated.

Could it be the limit switches? Both reading 0 is suspect to me!

Best thing for the customer to do with this vehicle is close the windows then remove the power fuse then drive the car till the rust causes it’s death. Or scrap the car! Cold solder joints can cause all kinds of problems!😊

Everyone took a step back to figure out this system now it's time to take 2or more steps back. This is a good one Ivan, someone's got the answer.

I have an 05 xuv. I came across same issue. After many hours of my life, that i will never get back, doing endgate latches, window and roof relearns. My solution was to wire in a switch for the roof. (Bypass the module) For the endgate functions i use a small bidirectional scanner that i found for $100 on amazon. Via an app on my phone. Another problem i had to fix was 4wd disconnect. Other than that it's a cool... truck? Its unique and kinda rare. That's why it was worth saving a small piece of americana to me. Mine has the 5.3L and ive growen to love it The little bypassss switch doesnt even alter the look if you get the right switch with a decent looking mounting bracket to look profressional. Dont use some cheap looking toogle switch. Save that crap for the batmobile.

Keith got slightly lucky with the backdoor find

The last time you tried to relearn, you didn’t have the motor running

Wow a bunch of cotton balls might have beat you up. Sounds like the owner is now in a position of no return. It is a nice truck. Is it worth it??? Only the owner has a say there in my opinion. Can't wait to see the final solution, if there is one..... Good luck men

Can't wait for pt3 !!

To Customer; You will owe him more than a beer.

RU-vid channel Watchjrgo 2 years ago fixed his 04 roof. You need tech 2 or he had a high end Autel that would control functions. He did say this roof is a unicorn as far as getting parts.

It's great to hear Keith!

I enjoy watching these videos! To Me it’s a like getting a good education for free.

A valiant effort for sure Ivan. Seems to work like a folding hard top with multiple micro position switches to monitor position.

What a cool ending but unfortunately something minor was overlooked. Nice to see Keith MotoYam

23:36 was the truck running? My 2004 k2500hd had a hvac issue where it would keep trying to adjust the blend door. I cleaned the pot wiper but the problem remained so i just selected a temp away from full and it stopped. My point is the programming allows for unreal conditions where a simple switch diagram with relay logic lockouts would make diagnosing less of an art.

Ivan, when the other videos and news of the day, and after watching my other favorite automotive channels, i end with yours. it's always a mental workout and I thoroughly appreciate it. I get much value as I drive 20 year old vehicles, a 2001 Durango and 2003 Dakota both with the 4.7. Owned since 2005 and 2006. Great survivor trucks and they still look sharp cruising main street.

So, it took BOTH of you to repair this vehicle, Ivan? You must have been stumped if you had to call Keith. Ya know, he's saved you a few times: Once he helped your wife and the other on a FIAT and now this; he's got a gift. GREAT VIDEO!

even master and grasshopper are not able to fix the over complex door roof mess, well it lasted for 19 yrs time to move on, thanks for posting

That is a familiar looking NEC relay... Looks like a common relay from mid 90s to mid 2000s. I have an Audi CCM with a similiar double relay that controls the vacuum pump for the central locking. The relay clicks but the pump only runs in the other direction. Tracks to the microcontroller seem intact for the control side so who knows :D

Man what a bugger, to get both gurus working on this! Waiting for the next part!!

Great and arduous troubleshooting done on this, Ivan! And Keith in the final stage! Auto manufacturers have got to stop their over-involved electronics and make vehicles that are way simpler to diagnose and repair.

that relay is used just to control polarity for the motor and power goes trough a mosfet. Its a way to make relay last longer by first latching relay contacts and then turning on the power with mosfet. this way no arcing in relay contacts.

Well it was worth a shot.. I'm glad it's now fixed. I was thinking it was a position switch issue this time. The roof has to know where the door and window positions are to move or it'll deny permission, similar to a convertible top in these newer cars. That's where the theory of operation comes in handy. Would have never guessed the window learn had to be done before the roof would even move in test.. good work guys..

Hey man, I just came across your channel and have been watching your vids in my downtime. I have learned so much from you.

I prefer a car that doesn't argue with itself.

hi ivan and hi keith nice to see you again

Could possibly be damaged vias through the board on that ground supply for the relay. Could be shorted decoupling capacitor. Could be broken solder joint on a current sense/shunt resistor. The MCU on that board will most definitely be monitoring current draw through the motor. If the sense circuitry is damaged it wont allow motor operation.

Great video and attempt to fix that system. I have hope for the rest of us if Ivan gets defeated too. I guess the Tech2 difference gave him a handicap to start with.

Years ago my foreman had one of those, his problem was the front end. He beat the crap out of it, towing, overloading etc.. once he stuck it in the mud up to the rockers and left it on site. It froze in and he had to get a ground thawer from the cement guys. I remember it finally died after 300,000 miles, then he got a Tahoe. These were company cars but they came with a maintenance program etc. I had a 3500 or 4500 dually stake truck it had 4X4 etc. diesel worked the heck outta that too. They were good trucks, made a lot of money with them👍

I had one the guy had replaced the rear glass regluator. It enver worked right after. I ended up figuring out that the "new" regulator had the motor installed backwards causing the window to go down when ya hit up and up when ya hit down.

I didn't want to watch comments before I watched the whole video. Great video and FYI don't buy a used one of those folks.

Iven your amazing hopefully it'll work now after the pin being fixed. Good man Keith you fixed it that was complicated.

In my 25 years at a GM dealer i have only dealt with 1 of these trucks for endgate issues believe it or not, not many around i guess. First time it came in was an endgate lower left latch issue not sending proper position signal. Could not get a new one so installed a used part. Worked for awhile then came back. Upper right latch issue this time, again used part fixed it. Came back a 3rd time, upper right latch again. Put another used latch in it and fixed it again. Last time i saw it so either its still fixed or customer gave up. A nightmare of a system if you ask me.

If I had a 20 year old truck, I'd just put in a single pole double throw switch. No relays, no limit switches, heavy enough wire to carry the load. As long as I held the switch toggle in the up position, the roof motor would run to open the roof. Hold it down, the motor runs to close the roof. Both cases, the motor runs as long as you are holding the switch. It would be up to the operator not to hold it so long as to blow a fuse or burn out the motor. Crude, but at least it would work.

That’s ok Ivan, you have amazing diagnostic skills and are still my favorite youtuber.

A lot to learn, great job, keep us updated.

It will be great if Keith does a vid on this one, too!

Hey Ivan 🙋‍♂️ now that’s it’s 98% there I’ll be happy to take a crack at it for you 😁

Wow, Ivan, that GMC is just a Masterpiece.....

I am trying to get the automatic roof learning function to work. I made sure the tailgate window position was learned. I even went and dropped down the mid gate and the tailgate down in the same position with no luck.

Ivan, I've personally rebuilt an XUV endgate with all junkyard parts and brought everything to functioning with a vcx nano interface and tech2win. The microswitches in the endgate latches are the first part of the "waterfall" of checks. Check under Special Functions of End Gate Module... Watch your latch status' I suspect these are dirty or failing... Also often times if you seperate the latch from the metal housing that bolts to the gate, you find the plastic housing has cracked and the gears are flexing things in the latch in ways they shouldn't. If you have any questions about my hands on experience with this mind-bender, feel free to reach out. Good luck, Javier G P. S. - I also have multiple latches and other endgate parts available.

Man I got to know, I've been watching a lot of your videos, are you self-taught? Your videos are amazing

That is a mind boggling problem, Ivan! Seems your Tech2 Win doesn't do all the tricks required - what a convoluted process, with weird (and probably completely unnecessary) interactions! Keith's experience and a real Tech2, got it right and I was already cheering for him, when I saw the final message in the video! That XUV is really hellbent on not being repaired! Could there be limit switches that are a bit sticky, for not working for a long time? Hope there will be a Part 2 for this weird case.

this is diagnostics gold. Keith needs to start posting videos again. Peace

Ivan, It is great that you can look for other for help and not be afraid for others to know it. That is why you keep learning and have evolved to the level that you have. Keep up the great work! Loved this video!

My SPX Geni with the Tech2 software set on it routinely does things that my Tech2 fails or shows errors. The blue/grey colored Genis were popular in GM dealerships around 2006. I see them and the Mac re branded red colored Geni clones called "Determinator" pop up on ebay for cheap.. always wondered what their onboard software is like.

Crap. Getting that roof relearn done is like a good golf swing. About 10-12 separate chained together parts have to be just right and executed in the correct order before you can get the ball off the tee without a resulting a "Happy Gilmore" moment.

23:40 ENGINE MUST BE RUNNING.

its always finding the right info ,whos got it and are willing to share or sell it. just like Kieth, how can you store that much info in your head on so many vehs. their has to be behind the scenes we dont see of communicating with other techs or have contacts higher up in the manufacturers guru guys for info maybe. i use identifix when i get stumped,but they dont always come thru sometimes,. not knocking anyone for having a utube channel and using these vids for content to offset these time consuming jobs with a no fix outcome and no pay from a customer cause you could not fix it. but as a tech myself i have to know when to throw in the towel and not loose valuable time and money. i will never know everything about everything, just wished we could get a network together to help one another, more than enough headache cars to keep us busy, and im glad you spoke of the time you had in this, this is some of the real life things that happen to us all

What an interesting case study!

Thanks Ivan!

Forgot to mention that tech2win does not have all the same functionality of the tech 2. Been there and learned the hard way. Painful that they add the option of the function yet leave out the actual function.

I hate that fuzz stuff…🤦🏻 Excellent Work!!

Very good to see you and your creativity

Win some, lose some. E for effort Ivan.

Whatever happened to the days before all these modules. I wouldn’t think they would have anything to do with gas mileage or EPA.

If I absolutely wanted this to work flawlessly I would rework the switches and add a limit switch to the windows and rear cab panel, and the roof panel . The roof would only retract when the end gate window is down, the roof panel will only close when the rear cab panel is down and the endgate window is down. There is too much going on with switches and electronics for this to be reliable. The system won't function if it doesn't know where the window s exact position is or if the endgate isn't latched properly.

So up to Avoca NY so Eric o can fix the truck that Ivan and Keith couldn't lol. If Ivan and Keith can't fix it I think the world might be coming to an end. Have mercy

Keith is crazy 😂 I would give anything to learn from him

Ivan depending how things turn out, in the next few weeks I may need to have you work on one of my volvo wagons. I just suffered a stroke…. I can’t even preform a simple brake job currently and my rear pads are shot.

Wow 300 comments in 16 hours, too much to read. I have one that is working also, 207,000 miles on it. I had updated the pcm with a cheap tech2 knockoff, it says to pull a couple fuses but dont remember which. I went to program it and it failed, long story short i had an aftermarket radio and had to pull that fuse also, almost cost me a lot bit it did reprogram. Not sure this info will help but sometimes its something weird causing an issue. Im not sure why it would stop working again but those latches may be an issue. Interested to see whats the issue now. Ill help anyway i can. I ended up wiring a pushbutton switch in the tailgate cause those pad switches are poo. If i think of anuthing else that will help ill let you know,i did take pics of wiring diagrams but i imagine you have better access to that than i do keep on wrenchin brother

If that was my vehicle knowing me i would have bypassed the bs modules and added separate switches and fused relays ! Give you an "A" for effort tho

By way of explanation, I can reveal that Cadillac consulted with me on the roof/tailgate opening system. - Rube Goldberg

I'm with kong I would build a relay set The owner would just have to remember not to slam the tail gate closed with out lowering the rear glass

I worked on one of these several years ago when I was in a used car dealer.

Now Ivan, your married to that one lol. Now i know not to buy envoy!! Haha, it's nice to have Keith to the rescue!! Great video Ivan!

Does the vehicle have to be running in park with the brake pedal depressed. Just thinking out loud, possibly another interlock for safety?

A valiant effort. Your still my hero Ivan 😂

It's a learning experience.

I was most impressed with the 1990 GUI that looked like it was straight outta floppy disc lol

What seems to strike me in this situation and what Ivan has already pointed out along with the guy in North Carolina is, when there is a loss of ground per say through latch mechanism that isn't working properly is this: loss of ground for that module to work right. Whether there is a travel issue or tailgate position whereas grounding is achieved ONLY when certain conditions are met. May it be a certain positioning or a positive latch of the tailgate mechanism can and will need to be met in order for the control module can remain operational. In other words, this entire logic is dependent on an integral "Interlock system" will determine whether the module will function as designed. If something is out of kilter by some varying degree by either positioning, travel or an interlock switch so that the module will remain functioning; that is if the module is at least passing initial testing. The second module for sure is working as designed BUT it is reliant on all other simplistic means such as a tailgate latch or perhaps at least one other mechanism that may still yet to be discovered. I can think of other means where an interlock system would be used, such as for safety consideration, such as for child proofing and or to prevent major damages to equipment OR just major failures that can cost an owner a huge fortune but in this case, it is something that is burdening the repair person and the owner just way too much!! Just in an instance of Ivan having to burn through 8 hours and the second repair person, God only knows how much time that he has into this repair is way out there in left field!

So what was the cause of this initial problem, the module or the tailgate fuzz and not having the tailgate window down and gate open?

After supplying ground, the truck was not running when you attempted relearn?

Hey Ivan, if I gave you $20, would you let me peel that overlay off the screen on your Think Tool? My OCD can't handle it anymore! 😜

Maybe that junkyard module is bad and has the same common problem. That's a reverse polarity circuit and rests at ground, when either relay is energized reverses polarity to open and close, check grounds.

Hey Ivan Keith is still the guru and you are the student great job LOL