A bit of real-world info; my friend and first mate on a landing craft I used to run, Kim Woodman, has been attacked twice by coastal brown bears. The first time was while his father was guiding a hunt and an angry wounded bear hunted back. He had a rifle and it worked. The pertinent incident was when Kim was hiking up a stream bed and there was a section of fairly heavy alder, pushki, and devils club when he spotted a cub. In making towards an open area, the sow came hard charging, his G20 was already drawn. He is practiced, we shoot a lot and he competes but he fell over his heels in underbrush while backing away, getting all 15 rounds off. While fending the bear with his legs, one round went through his foot. None of this about penetrating the sloping skull, or hitting the bouncing tennis ball that is the bear’s central nervous system. The most effective way to dispatch an aggressive sow is unequivocally from the soft underbelly! I used to carry a Ruger Deerfield .44 magnum, sheathed in my backpack, grip up at the ready. I recently switched to a G40, just like the one in the talk, because of Kim’s experience with its smaller sibling. The extra mass of barrel is good, in fact, I’ll be putting a longer barrel yet because I really feel recoil and flip is mitigated with more weight further from a gun’s center of mass. I know I can shoot faster than Kim! Thoughts to ponder: Like Kim used his legs, the carbine itself might help fend the bear off. If the beast is on you, mightn’t a long barrel keep the slide from getting knocked so the round is out of battery? Vitals, other than CNS, kill too slowly, IMHO… might crushing a bone in its shoulder be better? Is 10mm enough to do that? There are a lot of nice guns out there. We always seem to reach for the Glocks when the chips are down! (I’ve a Timney Alpha in mine, for the faster reset but otherwise stock. I will say that practice has made more difference in my times than any modification. JJ Racaza videos might save your life.) I live and work with bears, both polar and brown. Though the probability of a too-close encounter is small, the consequences could be devastating. It’s worth it for me to think about it. I wouldn’t even consider trusting that bear spray worked just right. Thanks guys, for your thoughts.
I watched a video of some hunting guides in South Africa dispatching a charging lion and it seemed to take two shots from a nitro express rifle and one shot from a 416 Rigby to drop that animal after it may or may not have been hit by a hunters crossbow arrow. The arrow had no immediate effect other than to initiate its charge. The lion dropped very close to the men and that was with two professionals firing heavy duty rifles so the notion of “stopping” a charging grizzly bear with nothing more than a handgun being fired by an amateur seems like a poor plan. They will probably be knocked down at least and suffer some injuries if they survive. I would advise not traveling alone in brown bear country and make sure at least one member of the group have a substantial long gun and practice ahead of time where to position one another so one member of the party doesn’t shoot another in a moment of panic.
Great video, boys. I was a firearms instructor at the police department of a small Wyoming city at the time the FBI adopted and then modified the 10mm. There was a lot of controversy in our PD about what semi-auto round to carry as we shifted away from revolvers. Ultimately, most officers chose the 9mm while the "pistoleros" among us chose the .45 acp or the 10mm. I carried the 10mm for the last 14 years of my career. I still carry a 10 mm in the Wyoming backcountry. Never had a malfunction. Recoil is totally manageable.
Yep. Im from the PNW (Idaho) and taught Wilderness EMS classes in WY and spent weeks at a time in the backcountry all over the Western US rafting and hunting. I carry a Glock 20 daily a G40 in the backcountry. The recoil is a non-issue and my Glocks are supremely reliable.
357mag! More velocity = more tissue damage. You need to penetrate a bear (fat/large bones) before vital tissue is even encountered. I, believe, you can get one with an 8 shot chamber. This would be my choice... wouldn't consider anything, else.
Good show as always. When I lived in Alaska from 2006-2008 I carried a S&W 629 mountain gun loaded with heavy .44 mags. If I ever move back I would carry my Glock 20. No question about it. I can shoot my Glock 20 miles better and faster than the 629. In the time it takes me to put six aimed, accurate shots at 15 yards with the .44 I can almost empty the15 shot 10mm magazine into the same circle I shoot the .44.
If it’s TRULY for bear defense…Consider the fact that a revolver will still work while the muzzle is buried in bear. Love y’all! Keep up the good work brothers!
Yes but if you're carrying a handgun it should have a weapon light mounted on it regardless..... That weapon light also acts as a standoff device preventing the slide from being depressed when pressing the gun into something. So that turns it into a entirely moot point...
@@johnlocke_1my buddy was full on attacked by a grizzly in BC where we hunt. Bow season. Canada. No handguns allowed. She had him in the hug and he kept stabbing her with the broken end of his arrow… luckily the broadhead end. She dropped him and he two handed her with the bow in her snout. He damn near died. But he didn’t quit fighting. So, yes, that is way to close… but shit happens.
I’d love you to get 3-4 people with different experience levels and 3-4 pistols from 9mm and up. Put a cardboard cutout on a fast RC truck and do number of round in kill zone at 40 yard run and 20 yard run. Include turning around and drawing the pistol into time. Hip carry, chest carry, etc would be nice to see time splits.
I've done something similar but a charging target from 20 to 0 yds. I've been around a lot of Alaska bears and the truth is you're probably not going to shoot until the bear is at 10 yds or closer. From 10 to 0 yds I got off 2-3 shots with a s&w compact 44 mag, but a lot of misses. I get off 4-5 with a semi auto with same hit percent. I switched to a m&p compact 10mm w Buffalo Bore hard casts after because when brown pants time comes I'd rather have the extra shots and mag dump.
I spent 1.5 months traveling backroads and forestry roads on a dual sport motorcycle from coast to coast. Knowing I was going to be in bear country the vast majority of my trip and grizzly country for about a week... I spent countless hours reading and researching this same topic... You know because I'm a flatlanders from southern illinois.... but yalls podcast is spot on!!! Great jobs guy!! But my gun of choice was the Ruger super redhawk Alaskan in 44mag. With 325gr +p+hardcast. And I packed another 6 rounds of extreme penetrators. And I ran it in a diamond d chest rig. The chest rig was secured and held the firearm flawlessly for the full 12,000 mile trip.
Yes, you can keep a .44mag running Underwood or BB 340's on target in double-action. You want to practice 2-3 shot strings, as that's probably all the time you're going to have. Usually when shooting big bore magnums you want to go with the recoil, but in this case you need to learn how to control the recoil (after you're very familiar with the arm/loading... you don't want to hurt yourself, so ease your way into controling muzzle-flip, and do some workouts the strengthen the wrists/forearms) I've been bluffed twice by Browns in AK. First time I had a .44 Redhawk on my hip (don't take the Smith's... they do not have the strength to handle those +p+ loadings, and you're going to need to PRACTICE with the loading and arm you're going to carry, so get a gun that can handle the pressures) and I didn't even have time to get it un-holstered before he was 10ft away and broke-off the charge, thank god. Second bluff, came up over a ridge and spooked a bear on its kill at about 25yd. This time I was carrying an Alaskan in .480, chest rig. Makes for a great "handle" while walking, and the benefit there is you just have to draw. Easy to access when fishing as well I was extending my elbow and probably not even 0.5 sec from getting a shot off before he stopped and started kicking the ground. I would have only gotten 1 shot in that situation, even with a semi. And these are the most likely scenario's where you'll be charged: you spooking a bear you don't see that is pretty damned close. Couple that with their very quick burst of speed, and you don't have time to take advantage of a semi-auto. In most scenario's you'll have enough time to get off 1-2 shots, so you need to make them REALLY count. IE: make them a 1200-1500ft lb impact rather than a 700ft lb to optimize your chance of living. Train for the scenario's that will afford you the least amount of time, don't assume you're going to have 15+sec to process the situation and make 6-8 well-placed head-shots on a tennis-ball sized target that moving up/down and coming at you 25-30mph, or that you'll have time to make it to your long gun that's 20ft away when you're fishing. Assume you'll have 2-5sec and train around that.
After reading numerous articles and comments, I think you're spot on. The bear that you see, popping jaw, standing menacingly, is not the one that's going to attack you. It's giving you a chance to back away and give it space. The one that you don't see, the one that launches an ambush or you surprised, you'll only have 1-3 shots. Probably won't leave an attack unscathed, unless you got a very lucky head shot. Probably will end up grappling with it as well, I mean you're on the ground getting slapped around. A short barreled revolver would excel at that range. I got the Alaskan in 44, but might want to upgrade to the 480.
@@pugilist102 I got into .480 when it was still relatively affordable. If you hand load and have plenty of large pistol primers and a relevant powder like Win 296/2400/H110/Accurate No. 9/Enforcer then I'd say go for it! 400gr'ers moving about 1140fps is maybe a bit more "push" than 305-340gr +p .44mag, but they're quite comparable in terms of recoil. If you can shoot a .44mag accurately you'll have no problems with the .480. It's not like stepping up to one of the ultra-mags (.454, .460smith, etc) where you've got that bone-shattering muzzle-flash/report with the snappy recoil. I really don't like these rounds and don't find them fun to shoot (and if it's not fun to shoot you won't practice) But the .480ruger (and it's parent, the .475 Linebaugh) are both very doable for the average shooter, imo. Another positive is if you have a .475 Linebaugh you can shoot .480ruger in it just like .44spl in a .44mag. However, the .480 is like 95% of the Linebaugh so there's very little difference in performance. I think the .480 was just re-tooled from the .475 to better fit double-action revolvers. But if you'd have to buy all the components, projectiles, etc to get into it I'd just stick with that .44mag unless you are planning to start hand loading regardless. I didn't leave the .44mag behind because I thought it was too little "gun", I just don't have a reasonably small .44, with my smallest being 5.5in. So it's just easier to carry the Alaskan with that 2.5in (2.75in?) barrel.
I’ve been hiking in Alaska couple times and all the local hikers have jingly bells strapped on their backpack to let the bears of your presence and almost all of them had a companion dog. They also said when the bear hears human noise it will usually run away from the noise and you have less chance of a bear encounter. How accurate is this?
@@jolebole-yt No, bear bells don't work. A USGS biologist working in Katmai NP tested the idea that the sound of bells would alert or scare away bears. What he found was that bears feeding or lurking nearby ignored the sound of the bells but reacted immediately to the sound of a breaking stick. He hypothesized that the bears ignored the sound of the bells because it was foreign to them and thus had no meaning. The sound of a breaking stick, however, alerted the bears because it was a sound that the were familiar with and associated with other animals moving through the brush.
I’ve visited Ak. eight times on fishing trips. Seven of those were self guided. Taught Yupik children a year in the bush at Marshall, on the Yukon River. I questioned many guides and Natives about a bear weapon. There were 2 calibers up there then, .44 magnum and .41 magnum. The .44 crowd just wanted the biggest caliber available. The.41 magnum crowd said with less recoil two shots could be taken before a bear got to you and a smaller diameter hard cast bullet in the .41 magnum penetrated further in a bear! I went with the .41 mag!
@@terryslaton5582 Not all that long ago. Trying to decide between two revolvers.... If you had to choose between two of the same size and weight, option 1) is a 4" 357 mag, 7 shot cylinder , using 180gr BB hard cast, or 200gr grizzly hard cast. Option 2 is a 4" 41 mag, 5 shot cylinder, using 230gr BB hard cast, or 250gr grizzly hard cast. Which one would you chose to save your life in big Bear country.
I brought a 6" 44 mag on my first elk hunt in deep grizzly territory. Decided to up my game to 5" 454 casull. Carry the biggest gun you can handle well-biggest point is to be honest with yourself. Chest rig only.
Exactly! I carry a Ruger Super Redhawk 454 Casull, when I go into the wild, for hunting, hiking, etc. I call it my Sasquatch gun. I bought it after an encounter with Sasquatch, true story! I wish I had a 500 S&W!
A data point to consider on the subject is the G20 is carried by the Danish Sirius Dog Sled Patrol (along w/ M1917’s in .30-06) where they potentially have contact w/ polar bears.
I’m definitely not asking to encounter a bear while camping or something, but it’s a good story lol. “What’s up with the bear pelt?” “It attacked me and found out.”
I don't live in bear country, but I think my 460 Rowland (converted from Springfield XD Tactical) would do the trick. 13+1 rounds. 230grFMJ @ 1350fps. That puts it right up there with 44Mag. I've dispatched several hogs, but may not have the cojones to stand there and place my shot(s) on a charging grizzly. If you can't do that, a 30mm cannon will not help. Salute to all you who have.
@@mississippichris yeah that'll do it. As long as you have time, head on a swivel. I like to make noise and fire a few rounds to christen my camp but I'm not hunting so...
I live in Black Bear country (Western CO). When I venture “off the pavement” I carry an EAA Witness 4.5” Polymer with 14+1 of high power Underwood 220 gr. and/or combined with Underwood Lehigh Penetrators 140 gr. Screamers. Both render around 725 FPI at the muzzle. I carry it in a belt holster (Safariland) in Condition 1. Chambered, safety on. And the EAA Tanfoglio is good to go out of the box for the high powered 10mm rounds.
I have a solution for the "out of battery" situation for the 10mm. And that is add a wepon light like the the surefire x300 or the mod light or even the streamlight tlr1hl if you have a 4" barrel. The length of the light sticks wayyyy out past the end of the muzzle so that will help prevent pressing the muzzle out of battery on contact
I actually posted this in a different comment. My G20 has a Surefire x300 Turbo And an AimPoint ACRO enclosed emitter red dot The x300 Turbo is just a beast of a weapon light. And in my opinion a weapon light on your pistol is 100% ESSENTIAL regardless As a hunter we often find ourselves walking out of the woods in the dark, regardless of if we kill an animal. In those instances, I sling my rifle and walk out with my headlamp and my pistol out with the light on. This allows me to have two separate lights shining around to catch eyeshine, and already have the gun out for emergency. Fish and game would care very much so if you had a light on your rifle, and can give you problems over it. but they don't think twice about having one on a pistol. The TLR1 HL is a great light for the money, but the x300 turbo edges out both the mod light and TLR1 HL no problem. Especially when taking account the use of CR123 logistically vs 18350s. On my various pistol lights, handheld lights and rifle lights run off CR123 and 18650s for logistics. I just use rechargeables, and keep spare standard batteries in my pack, but it's nice being able to shine it as much as I want without worrying about burning through batteries, as I can just recharge them when I get back to the rig. X300 Turbo is my recommendation to everyone for pistol lights. The lumen output is one thing, but that Candela it's just so nice lol. I like being able to see everything, including way deep through the woods 100+ yds away Cloud Defensive Rein 3.0 for rifles.
I hunted black bear with a .41 magnum Dan Wesson revolver 20 or so years ago. I was using a jacketed soft point (silhouette) bullet. I used the same load for hog hunting. The idea was, as you say, minimal expansion. Penetration and retaining energy to break bones if needed. I successfully took both types of animals cleanly with that revolver. As always, shot placement is key. 10mm would be what I'd consider bare minimum in bear country. Of course it needs to be a weapon you are proficient with. It does not matter what caliber it is if you can't hit with it.
I built a 5 1/2" 475 Linebaugh 5 shot Ruger Blackhawk, while I was at Trinidad State. I carried it on my moose hunt in 2008 in Alaska, quite comforting. Single action, so you have to thumb the hammer. 325gr @ 1500fps and 400gr @ 1250fps
I carry a Ruger Alaskan .480, 400gr at about 1100. Absolutely love the .480 and have been wanting to get a .475 Linebaugh for a while (given the .480 can be fired from it) Love the .475 diameter and it's really nowhere near as bad for recoil as people might think.
@@Dovahkiinxxx It's not much worse than a hot .44mag. If you can handle a moderate .454 casull or hot/heavy projectile .44mag, you can handle the .475 Linebaugh. They're usually built with those Bisley-style grips that tame the recoil quite well, even for a lighter Single Action. The Linebaugh's aren't like the Smith ultra mag's that have that unpleasant combo of the high-pressure wrist "snap", the heavy projectile "push", and the intense brake-blast all at once. It's just a hard push, though I'm sure if you run some light-for-caliber projectiles at their max velo it would be unpleasant. I can shoot .475Linebaugh (and .480, it's "special" that's still about 90% of the Linebaugh) cylinder after cylinder, no problem. I'd say they're within the bounds of most revolver shooter's abilities, unlike the ultra mags. The .460/.500 Smiths? One Cylinder and I'm done, even with those ultra-heavy X-frames they just aren't pleasant to shoot. But the Smith's were designed as a big game hunting/"because we can" cartridge that are much better suited to a lever gun than revolver. The Linebaughs were designed to be carried in relatively light revolvers in the bush for bear protection and hunting, making them much more practical than their caliber's would suggest.
This is a great conversation guys. I grew up in the Northern portion of Idaho where they were releasing the trouble bears from Yellowstone. We all carried .44 Magnums, and that is what the rangers recommended also. However, I don't know of anyone ever having an encounter with a Grizzley. The Moose were more of a hazard that we did deal with.
Yeah I live in the North Idaho panhandle just south of the Canadian border. My entire life I've spent every deer, elk,and bear season in the woods, and bear hunting in particular I've been doing for decades. I have seen exactly 1 Griz myself (seen several in Montana on backpacking trips, but here in Idaho only one) and my buddy got trail cam pics of a monster on one of his baits. So although we do have them here, they are still pretty rare. Granted we do have monster color phase Black bears that can be mistaken for Griz in some cases. I killed a 7'0 500LB bear IN THE SPRING (so he would have been considerably larger in the fall season) and he very much so looked like a Griz when I first saw him, I had to be real careful before I squeezed a round off lol.
The 10mm is the best turn-key solution for field carry against bears even though it's just shy of true magnum power. Capacity and reload speed trump the .44 magnum. The BEST caliber for bear defense is the .460 Rowland from a 1911 conversion with V2 recoil damper. This combo has less felt recoil than the 10mm fired from a Glock frame, but easily exceeds the true magnum power floor at 1.3 kilojoules of energy per shot, with 10+1 shots on tap when using 10 round mags. The 1911 has the best ergonomics and trigger of any handgun and with the V2 system, extremely low perceived recoil - less than the 10mm.
Spending many days each fall upland hunting in Choteau, Montana, grizzly bears are common. My 4-inch S&W model 69 revolver in .44 magnum is now always on my hip in a De Santis leather holster as is a canister of bear spray attached to my upland vest. Should the need arise, the ability to defend myself and others within my hunting party with several options just makes sense.
@oooG007 Wrong, I've carried S&W for 30 years as a duty gun. Never failed, ever. Thats why law enforcement has trusted S&W for decades. Until you've shot thousands of rounds through a sidearm, your opinions are worthless.
Yes , making reasonably accurate Hits , reasonably quickly is very important . With .44 Mag , the sweet spot of Power vs Control is a 4 to 5 inch bbl gun , loaded with " normal magnum " level 240 gr , preferably hard cast . Just barely ( if any ) behind that is same size gun with .45 Colt " Ruger Only " level loads of 250- 260 - ish gr . ( Just today , picked up some 265 WFN .45 Colt +P ) FWIW - 10mm is Also a viable choice . FWIW - .45acp 255 Hard Cast +P isn't terrible , if you're putting conventional carry gun to double duty , and better than any 9x19 load .
Great topic, often covered in many camps. My take, having hunted in bear country in Idaho, Wyoming and Montana, my take away is that a heavy loaded glock 29 with 15 in a mag and one in the chamber was a good addition to a rifle because of the light weight. When in camp or fly fishing you are generally more aware of your suroundings and a big bore revolver makes sence were as in the hunt your going through terrain generally at a better pace and the bear greeting can come up much more unexpectedly warranting the higher fire power of the Glock. Never felt undergunned with my 300 Weatherby and my glock. Bear spray is a waste of space and weight and several packers and guides have been destroyed because of this BS promotion of using spray as a deterent. These idiots have never bumped a intercoastal mama griz with cubs. Pepper spray doesn't work on all bears, lead does.😮
I live in North Idaho just below the Canadian border. Been hunting bear for decades, and I've seen monster black bears that people would straight up confused for grizzly because of the size (we have color phase bears here so a 500+ lb 7ft Colorphase bear can VERY easily be mistaken). And in a lot of ways black bear are even more dangerous because of the more predatory nature of attacks vs Grizzly/Brown bear. Biggest bear ever killed was 7'0 and just over 500 lb IN THE SPRING. He was an absolute monster lol.
I live in Idaho and carry a Rock Island 1911 Double Stack in 10mm as my EDC, at 26yrs old the weight and size isn't unbearable and to me and I know the system well, 10mm is extremely versatile because I can carry a fantastically performing expanding round for threats under 300lbs and a simple magazine change and now I'm equipped for a worst case scenario with Bear or even Moose. When I get older and my hips and back need a break, I'll likely put down my Big Rock and carry a Commander or Officer 1911 and switch to my Model 19 in a shoulder Rig when I'm out camping. The Model 19 actually has a scope on it right now and is shooting better groups than my hunting rifle so it still comes along on camping/glamping trips but it's not something I try to carry consistently. I can hit a moving target, and I knock the dust off a few times a year.
Mag change relative to need is a good point. I have a new 10mm (XDM Elite, 4.5", flared magwell). I need to learn different rounds that have the same point of impact, so that I can just change mags depending on if I'm needing bear defense, human defense, deer hunting, or target shooting. It will be quite expensive to learn all that unless there is a source that lays out comparable 10mm loads as far as POI.
@@MrBurdineklI carry a Rock Island 1911A1 Tactical 10mm and a Taurus 605 2” .357. I carried the 1911 for 20 years in the U.S. Army. You can’t beat the 1911 platform and I encourage you to continue to carry one. The 1911 is the safest and most reliable pistol you can have. 68 years old and will carry my 1911 until I die. Great choices today with the 1911 in great caliber choices. You have a winner! E.Oregon resident.
For the last few years, I've been carrying the S&W M&P 10 mm with a Holosun HS407C and an Olight Baldr Pro R in a chest rig. I really like how bright the light is and that it's rechargeable. I've used it many times in addition to my headlamp when coming out of thick, nasty woods at night, and it really lights up the surrounding area. I usually carry a couple mags of Underwood's 180 g jhp's or their 220 hardcast if I'm particularly worried about BIG bears. The chest rig fits nicely under my bino harness and doesn't impede my draw. the key is to practice how you're going to be using it.
Live in black bear country. When we take day long fourwheeler rides. 357, 10mm, 45 acp and 44 mag. Can be found on hips and packs. None of us have ever had to use them in a bear or two legged predator instance. Better to have and not need 👍
I have a G20 Gen4 with a 24lb recoil spring & Storm Lake barrel with fully supported chamber. It runs all 10mm ammo 100% reliable. Even .40s&w! But I carry it with the hot 200gr hard cast coated Underwood. I’d rather carry this lighter gun I shoot well with 16rds VS a heavy 5-6 shot revolver.
Just picked up a Glock 20 for guiding in Idaho. We don’t have much for bears, but we do have moose. Last year a hunter we ran into, got held up in a stand of trees by an agitated bull moose for 45 mins or so. Years back I picked up a Ruger Super Blackhawk in 44 mag, but the weight is not conducive to hiking steep mountains day after day. A Glock 23 has been my main sidearm for over 10 years, so moving to the Glock 20 was easy.
Also, if you guy’s wanna riff a little more on the topic i think the .40/.45 super is worth talking about and educating about! I appreciate very much what you all do. I’ve learned alot from your cartridge talk/ debates and Ryan’s history lessons. Keep up the good work!
Agreed. But there are some of us old retired Pro gunfighters who still carry a 44 Mag in the field because we can hit a bears brain from almost any angle inside 50 yards. I don't worry about bears. Bears better worry about me.
Sounds way better, LOL How fast can you pull a trigger? The reactionary gap of an attacking bear in the woods is LITTLE TO NONE. ask me how I know. I will give my expert opinion: there is NO NONE NADA replacement for a big heavy Hardcast bullet going as fast as you can handle the recoil of it. A 44 mag with Hardcast hotloads worked for me, but didn't if the bear would have been 6 feet closer to where I was hiding in a windfall when he passed me after I shot him the first time. I hit him the second time as he passed me. He went another 35 yds beyond me and took another 25 seconds of tearing the ground apart where he fell before he exspired. Both 300 grain bullet laid against the heart. Niether had even broken the hearts skin. Just put a shadow bruise on it. The one lung was a mess. But the heart nope. 10 mm not for me thank you. 23:51 So what do I recommend for a bear gun? 2000 fps or faster and at least 300 grains of Hardcast or bigger. Because that lumbering dark ghost of the forest. Well, he isn't a clumsy boo boo. Until you have actually witnessed the speed, agility, and power of that absolute agile powerful athlete of 400lbs or better, I wouldn't recommend you speculate. The one in my picture was over 700 lbs. estimated by wildlife officials. Because the bear broke their 600 lbs scale with his butt and back legs still on the ground. the one before that was 451 lbs exactly. I have witnessed 2 big bores fight, not a sparring match, an out and out I will kill you fight. Both over 400lbs, the roars and screams were unlike anything you can imagine. And the raw power and agility Unbelievable!!! The best example you could see is a youtube video of a bear reacting to a mirror. And that is a smaller one about 275 lbs. I have killed many bears they die quite easy up to about 350 lbs. But once they get 450 500 and over they are just different.
@nico3727 I have never used bear spray. So, with a lack of experience I don't want to advise you. I do joke that pepper spray is just seasoning for a bear with a taste for Mexican cuisine. It may work well? I wouldn't know. But at the end of the day, my philosophy about a threat for a potential of eminent great bodily harm or death is this, "you are going to die from the maximum" amount of firepower that I can bring to bear. Come, man or beast. I have loved ones depending on me to be around and be a force of protection. I mean to be so. I was asked once. If I was willing to die for what I believe. My answer was quick and to the point. "NO, but I am willing to kill to stay alive and believe what I believe. How do you feel about dying to impose your views on others?" I haven't given my eventual death much thought. But I am always looking to make myself the most formidable force of protector I can be. I have a calm resolve and absolute boundaries that I don't allow trespass. People those who don't know me wouldn't have a clue to how dangerous I am. I work very hard at that also. Because there are only two types of people in my world. Those under my protection and threats to good people. The whole world wants to dabble in gray areas and relativism. I'm a black and white universal truth and time-tested wisdom kinda guy. So, if a less lethal option for a potentially lethal situation makes sense to you? To each his own. I'm not burdened by such ( I will be nice) susfistications.
Also, on means of carry, I see on some hunting shows the pistol horizontal on the bottom of a binocular pack. The problem I see with that are much the same as the horizontal shoulder holster. When you carry horizontal, you are sweeping everyone around you with the muzzle of a presumably loaded gun. I was archery elk hunting in the Black Hills, stopped for lunch, had my pack off with pistol on belt....lion walked by at about 10 feet...no chance to get pistol. My 475 Linebaugh, carried in a cross-draw holster on my pants belt. Great Talk
Glad y'all addressed the 329PD. I bought one for backpacking and archery in Montana. Once I started practicing with it, I noticed follow up shots were not well placed or took too long. That being said, I recently switched to a 10mm w/ a RDS. It's fast, I'm accurate with it, and 16+1 is a comforting thought. I will say though, I've been followed by wolves more than I've even been close to bears. Great subject, I agree that it's best to carry what you're proficient with along with good bullet selection.
I've been focused on adding 10mm for last couple years, esp a Springfield Ronin model. For months i've been perusing all the bear attack stories on Ytube. I noticed a trend of Alaska guides and northern Rockies going to 10mm. The bear attack stories leaned me to a double stack auto to have as much ammo as possible in my hand without reloading. After handling several brands I picked a Smith M&P 2.0 standard length. Very natural pointing. Could add a dot sight and laser or light under it but life experience has shown Keep It Simple is best for me and high stress. So the Ruger .44 Mag Blackhawk will stay on rack as its like carrying 2 bricks even with the 4.75" barrel. Plus the M&P can easily double for home/personal defense better than a .44 Mag single action.
A comp on the end of a threaded barrel can protect a pistol such as a G20 or G40 from being pushed out of battery. This is in addition to helping get rounds in target a little more easily.
My bear defence is my m&p40 1.0 in 357sig loaded with 125gr flat point solids. The stainless kkm 5" barrel gives me a solid 1400fps, and the flat point projectile manages 5 or 6 gallon jugs of penetration in water.
I’ve hunted elk here in Wyoming for 45 years and a hand loaded 180 grain hard cast at about 1400fps has done the job on grizzly twice in my 45 years hunting. That’s my go to because it does the job. One was shot right in the left nostril and exited the back of the head. The other was shot in the front of the throat and took it the spine
What about the Xtreme penetrator stuff from Lehigh? I’ve always felt like there is no practical use for those in a self defense scenario, but punching thru bear skull might be legitimate. A bear bones solution, if you will.
I used to live on the Oregon coast in the Newport area and saw a HUGE brown bear slammin' a trash compacter around because it wanted food. That thing was fully loaded and weighs A LOT EVEN WHEN EMPTY. I slowly walked backwards indoors again
G20 in a drop leg thigh holster, so as to clear my hunting saddle, with 10 mm underwood +p+ loaded with Lehigh ftm projectile. Got 34” penetration in 10% ballistic gel in testing.
Live in Idaho in the Teton area and love to fish/hunt/hike. Bears also like to fish/hunt/hike. I carry a 10 due to the weight of the 44… pretty hard to hike comfortably with the red hawk as it hammers your chest to a fine powder if you have to go very far. The 10 is pretty acceptable and a great secondary to your rifle. Not carrying a sidearm while bow hunting in this country is patently irresponsible and increases the probability you will wind up as a poopy pile of flannel that smells faintly of bear spray.
Definitely a fun topic, thanks for contributing to the discussion. Couple things I wanted to jot down...maybe you guys read 'em, maybe you don't.... Meateater Trivia had a question quite a while ago concerning which cartridge in America was responsible for the most number of bear deaths/kills. The answer really surprised me, according to Spencer's reference material it's like 9mm or 45colt....not because folks set out to hunt bears with those calibers, but more that's what people tend to own so that's what they're taking with them into the wilderness as basic defense...better than nothing, and not too unlike how Mark describes his situation in this podcast. Second, Rogan spoke a while ago with a grizzly bear attack survivor, very good account, ya'll should try and find that podcast. There was a 10mm involved with that mauling however in the end upwards of 6 or 7 rounds were discharged into the animal, as well as being blasted through the shoulder point-blank with a 300WinMag. Very interesting story, the rifle cartridge definitely did the majority of the damage and in all honesty, as much as I love to believe hard-cast +P 10mm will stop the show with a couple pulls that's possibly less likely to be the case. Some very good points and impressions however brought up though Mark & Ryan... I think the semi-auto with lots of capacity that you can deliver multiple rounds on target quickly is likely the best direction.
This topic is close to my heart as I have handguns in all the calibers discussed and often debate which one is best suited for a particular trip. IME the best 44 mag revolver is the most overlooked one, the Ruger Redhawk 4". Dimensionally it's fairly compact, it's slightly smaller than my 10mm XDM Elite 4.5" and is easy to carry in the right holster, I have a simply rugged pancake holster and have carried all day without issue, even carry concealed when I've had to get supplies etc. While the Redhawk is so strongly built you can fire any ammo available, this is an area to consider. You don't have to use a wrist breaking +P+ round as even the more basic loads are significantly more powerful than 10mm. I have had many people of all sizes fire my Redhawk, most can handle a 240 or 300gr bullet at 1100-1200 fps, even relative novices. The main reason I have a 10mm is as a "goldilocks gun" it isn't necessarily ideal for any thing, but is a great all rounder. I'm confident it will deal with the smaller black bear in my area, mountain lions and anything else on 4 legs that might cause an issue. I like the larger mag capacity and fast reload in case I run into predators of the 2 legged variety, or wild dogs, coyotes or even wolves that I have now seen twice in areas they officially do not inhabit. So the 10mm makes a great all round firearm to have with you, even better if you only have one to hand. But we shouldn't overlook the 44 may for straight large animal defense, because we are imagining a scandium S&W 329 with Buffalo bore ammo as the alternative to 10mm. As an aside the 329 is not rated for the stoutest 44 mag loads either.
I feel one of the most underappreciated factors is accessibility. A lot of people carry handguns in a backpack or other area that can't be immediately accessed while hiking or hunting. If you're gonna do that don't bother at all! Start using a thigh holster or chest holster or other customized setup that works best for you, and practice with it in different positions at the range. It has to be immediately accessible, right now, when it's dark and rainy etc.
Fun discussion. Lots of great options. My choice is my redhawk 44, cause that's what I've carried for years in the summer for 60days straight when working in Alaska. I like the extra weight and it works well for me.
@@robertmckinley4825 Very true, but hat's off to someone who actually carries it that much. I've found myself slipping off my SBH sized 44 rig, far more often than prudent due to weight and bulk. It bothered me seeing it ten feet away, maybe hanging on a branch, but I did it anyway.
The 10mm, in original trim, is *almost* equivalent. to the .41mag. The .41mag is *almost* a .44 magnum, which is at the bottom end of hi-caliber hunting rounds. Now, if the Griz has swiped yer .375 H&H rifle away, and yer12 GA is back at camp, I suppose a 10mm sidearm as a last ditch is fine; but...... The big advantage is ya can save the last round for yerself! ;)
Great show and very informative as always. I live in Alaska and either Cary my Ruger 45 colt bisley ( Ruger only loads ) 335 gr buffalo bore loads or my 454 casull bisley 335 gr buffalo bore or my Ruger bisley or my 480 Ruger bisley with 410 gr buffalo bore all with 6 inch barrel and my 338 win mag ( when your elbows deep in a moose or caribou where is your rifle? ) My revolver is always on my belt. I have been thinking of carrying a 10 mm also in case of wolves ( more than 5 or 6 ) since some wolf packs get very big but I'm always hopeful never to have to be in either situation. But like Burt Gummer says it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
One factor to also consider is confidence in your ability with whatever firearm you choose. The one time I was face to face with a mountain lion, my Ruger Redhawk 4" suddenly seemed small in my hand. Having retreated to my travel trailer when I had to venture out later, I felt much safer with my pump action 12 gauge.
I bought a JXP10mm Hi-Point. Added a high viz front sight, added a comp and swapped the rear to the peep sight. It's in their nylon holster on a range battle belt. It runs flawless from factory and recoil is mild. The compensator prevents contact worries and aids follow up shots. The only thing is the trigger can be out ran so I take full trigger pulls if I'm gonna mag dump
I have the 5in 460s&w, and it’s surprisingly controllable due to the weight and muzzle break. It’s fairly comfortable to carry in a chest rig, but it would likely interfere with a bino harness. I’m on the fence on whether I’d rather have it or a 10mm in grizzly country. For black bears/lions, I felt very comfortable in central Idaho with just a Glock 19.
You can use 454 Casull in an X-frame 460 S&W magnum and it is more controllable. I use 454 Casull in my 5 inch full lug muzzle brake equipped 460V X-frame as my preferred platform.
I had a short range stand-off with a grizzly here in Idaho. I was armed with a LA 450 marlin. The bear luckily walked away, popping its jaws. I vomited as the adrenaline left, and my hands went numb. I've never felt comfortable carrying any handgun of any caliber in grizzly country, but it's better than nothing. Looking back, I completely forgot that there was bear spray on my hip. For the record, if I am carrying a side arm while, I'm fishing, I carry a 45 acp with Buffalo Bore hard cast bullets. I think a 10mm with appropriate ammo would be OK, too.
I have the guides choice holster Double Diamond for my Ruger Super Redhawk 44 mag 7.5” barrel and my Glock 20 10mm very comfortable and versatile. Used it with my mystery ranch bear tooth 80 and bino case and able to draw both.
Glock 29, KKM barrel, trijicon night sights, 15 rd mags with the Xgrip extension, 200-220gr hard cast. Short, light, powerful. I have a model 20 and 40. 29 always seems to end up in the holster. Whatever thats worth.
Alaskan Ballistics has a great video where he compares the G40 ( 6" 10mm) with a comparable .357 magnum (revolver i believe) for penetration and i believe energy. He says they've done the test many times and 10mm always comes out on top. Can't remember which bullet he was using... Underwood or Buffalo Bore. I think they may have been hard cast as well. Bottom line is they were very closely matched and the 10mm wins. Many channels run by dudes from Alaska claim that they all know people who have used 10mm on grizzlies effectively. That said, i don't know how many rounds it took, what kind of round, barrel length and or placement on the bear. Those bears are so damn fast that if you are lucky enough to get a shot off, you may only get one shot. I have a G40 with threaded barrel that i plan on using as a back up this coming hunting season. I'll probably have hard cast rounds in it.
On the revolver vs autoloader argument. Both 10mm and .44mag require training so I don't think giving as much weight to rounds on target (accuracy) is right. I agree with the 12 vs 6, but its a different argument.
You can use anything from 9mm and up. However, the lower the caliber the more important shot placement becomes, and knowing that you may be under powered, isn't going to improve your aim any. Couple that with the fact that most people don't know to aim for the nose, because a bear's brain is behind it's eyes, above that is all bone. And only bluff charges come from the front. A true attack usually comes from a bear that has been stalking and flanking you. You likely won't have time to get more than one shot off, if that. This flat out correlates to bigger is better.
I was planning a long trip through AK a few years ago and started researching what was out there for a bear gun. I also live a couple of miles from Escudillo Mountain where one of the last 10 Grizzlies in Arizona was killed in the early 1900’s. The very last one was near Flagstaff, but the last “trapper” trapped from Escudillo down the Blue River and took out several in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s. It wouldn’t be un-feasible to see them back here in 10-20 years, the way they are expanding up north of Colorado in the Greater Yellowstone region. The best and most realistic tests I’ve seen here on the Tube for bear guns (both short and long) has been by Chuck of @ChukesOutdoorAdventures with him testing several varieties with moving “sleds” and bear targets. He lives in AK and has collected some good stories he shares of various moose and grizzly encounters, I’d love to see his tests duplicated as best as possible by another group with the means. As for what I do, I hunt and fish a lot since I live in the largest Ponderosa stand in the USA here in Eastern AZ, while we currently don’t have any grizzlies, we do have black bears, Mountain Lions, and Mexican Grey wolves in rather large numbers. Again the Blue River is a large wilderness area where they spread from 100 years after trappers thinned out many of them. Since the black bears here rarely make it past 300, and I’m more likely to need it for criminal activity, I typically just carry a 9mm semi-auto hunting, fishing, or just hiking around. I’ve worn it on my hip for a long time, but recently made a Bino Pack chest holster and now use that, keeps it on me along with other “must haves” and doesn’t get in the way of a backpack, slung rifle, or fly rod, but is still quick to draw and use.
I carry 10mm for northern AZ trips, didn't know wolves were where you are, interesting history about the AZ grizzlies, your right though, they could come back, not gonna leave my 10 at home either way but... I can't believe that dude in prescott recently, 4/5 neighbors didn't have a gun and there was a bear seen at the safeway 12 days earlier, have a good one, Commenting from shadows of the superstition mountains
@@nodescriptionavailable3842 the Mexican grey Wolves are pretty much anywhere in the pines where there is elk and deer for them to eat and have been reported to have wandered down into Tuscon, between Wickenburg and Tonopah, and other desert locations. (Maybe following the Alamo lake elk heard?) I’m not sure how true those reports are, but wouldn’t surprise me after a northern grey moved from Montana to the North Rim of the Grand Canyon and started back through Utah only to die mistaken for a Yote in one of their Mule Deer protection zones where they paid bounties on yotes for a few years. The majority of the Mexican wolves are south of I-40 and east of I-17, but they have stated they will let them “settle” anywhere between I-10 and I-40 in AZ even to the Colorado river. Generally they leave people alone, though I did have the founding pair of the Hodoo pack watch from some nearby pinion tree’s me gut an elk cow I’d shot a few years ago, was a lil uncomfortable after I discovered they were there since I was covered in blood, but most likely they were just waiting for me to leave so they could scavenge anything they could. The bear story is more than a lil crazy, in good health, not malnourished, and likely had been eating trash or other human related food since there was several reports of him in the area. And while I would like to think that me and my neighbors would have a pistol, shotgun, or rifle to hand faster than they did, the reality is likely about the same. (Nieghbor shot the bear dead but was to late from the reports I saw to save the guy) If I was out working in my yard, getting dirty and sweaty I likely would have to get inside the house to grab a firearm as I don’t typically carry during the day in the yard even though I’m on acreage , have bears, elk, deer, wolfs, and cougars all that travel through the neighborhood. Might have to start hanging that, but hate having to clean garden compost out of the pistol every night!
There are several reasons the 10mm Glock 20 is my bear gun - but primary it's weight, shoot-ability, and the ability to mount a light. Any camp gun worth its salt should have a light. If I need to deploy that firearm when it's dark, because my Glock has a weapon mounted light, I don't have to rely on getting my headlamp on first. The G20 is lighter and more compact than a very large caliber revolver that's big enough to be shootable. Having said that, bear spray will always be my first option as it's far easier to deploy effectively, considering that when fine motor skills are deteriorating due to stress, it's not easy to shoot any handgun accurately when you're surprised by a wild animal. My handgun is there as a backup, or a first option if it's extremely windy.
Well, y'all may remember me as the dude with the cool name from the Q&A, but I can say last year was a real crap shoot for me. Got hit by a car while I was waiting for a turn. Had to deal with the Big C in my esophagus, beat it. But more on to the topic, I had an unlucky run in with a bear running from (Legally on public, the dogs and owners did nothing wrong and I have no ill will for them nor the dogs) dogs during bear season while I was squirrel hunting. I was directly in the path. I fought it off with 9mm, because otherwise it was 5 shot out of a break barrel shotgun. But I would have much rathered a 10mm, with the biggest magazine I can fit in it with an optic up top of it. That was my takeaway from that whole situation.
Glad you are still upright after your challenges over the last year. To your 10mm point, FN 510 is what I chose for your very logic. Comes with a 15 and a 22rnd mag, plus everything you need to mount most optics. It's a very capable shootable platform.
@@linkbond08 My luck is weird. Get a totaled vehicle, but not a scratch on me. Practically got ran over by a bear, had to shoot it off of me, but didn't get mauled. With the cancer there's scars and I'm missing my esophagus now, but it was completely dead and I don't have to worry about developing this exact cancer again because of them removing my esophagus.
I, personally, think that when talking terminal ballistics, I go straight to Underwood ammunition for all calibers from 380 autos to the 45ACP. Even when taking on a Grizzly.
I've been really enjoying many episodes of this podcast! I'd like to ask for more long range shooting videos with competitive or other professional shooters. I'm just getting into very long range shooting and would appreciate some raw advice, technique, and applied math episodes! Thanks for what y'all do!
I have a friend that had to shoot a black bear in his kitchen. He shot the bear and couldn't tell if he even hit it. It ran from his house and into the forest. He used a .40 S&W. The division of wildlife officer told him the bear would likely roll in the mud and have no ill effects. A more powerful firearm would be advised for bear shooting or multiple shots. Do you have the nerve to stand, aim and take an accurate shot that isn't to high is the question.
@@russellkeeling4387 10mm is more powerful than a 40 S&W and I know how to shoot just fine. You kneel and fire if possible at a charging bear so you are the same level as he is running at you. I would only shoot if my or my families life depended on it.
I don’t shoot a lot due to cost but I bought a M and P 2.0 10mm due to a gentleman that died on his porch in Prescott Arizona . I bought it because it holds more rounds and you can shoot more rounds accurate than a revolver and I watch a lot of videos like this pod cast to determine what I was going to buy.
I’m pretty sure there’s a reason why the 10mm is chosen for bear defense over a higher caliber revolver in most cases. A 44 mag may be exceptionally effective, if you hit the bear right the first time, but if not, then your follow up shot takes longer and pray God you don’t miss twice. I’d rather be able to put more shots down range quicker. From everything I’ve looked into from those who do backpack in bear country, the 10 mm handgun is a must. Not to mention, the vast loadings of the 10 mm allows for me to have 1 gun for both edc and backcountry carry. Personally, if I’m in bear country, I’m bringing my 50 Beowulf with 500 gr hard cast loadings, and my Glock 20. IF I decide to carry my Ar-10 then I’m bringing Fort Scott’s Tui or something fmj because I don’t want it stopping due to expansion
My personal bear carry is the Glock Model 40 (10mm) + 3x 15rd mags. I preferred the longer barrel increasing the velocity. 15 rd mags to comp for potential miss due to recoil. Carried in chest holster. 2nd choice is Smith & Wesson M&P 2.0 with NTS 10mm 4.6 in. Barrel 15 Round Pistol. Federal Swift A-Frame 10MM 200 Gr. Jacketed Hollow Point 20 Rounds/box. (a bit too costly, in MHO!)
I live in bear country, in fact we had a couple grizzly in town last week which has been pretty rare until recently. Hopefully my country will correct our pistol laws soon and I can use this information to select some decent protection for working around my property. Thanks for the conversation! Something I was hoping you would touch on is cost of ammunition. Not necessarily a consideration in the moment but for practice. Hopefully you have a couple hundred rounds through your weapon building proficiency, is that going to be a hundred bucks or a thousand?
I have a Gen 2 Glock 20. I removed the mag release and filed the surface down not quite flush with the frame. The mag dosen't release unless I push REALLY hard. I like it that way.
I shoot and carry j frame and k frame revolvers almost exclusively for CCW. Lots of double action and trigger time. It may not be ideal but quality 357 ammo just works for me.
The reason people say 10mm hard cast is the best bear medicine. It's because its like having a semi auto 357 mag to 41 mag handgun. Plus the capacity, plus being able to have a light and optic on it, versus wheel guns where yes, it is more powerful however you have no optic, no light, and 5 or 6 shots.
I use a .480 Ruger with a red dot for bear protection. Also carry 2 speedloaders. Uninterested in reducing my power to the lowly (sic) 10mm. If the sasquatch or bears come at me in assault groups- I will revisit the higher-capacity round at a later date.
I run underwood ammunition loading with Lehigh defense solid copper penetrators doesn’t matter what I’m carrying, have them for 9mm, 45acp, 38 special, 357 mag, 44 mag, and 50 ae. Edit, as for 10mm I don’t have one yet but plan to buy a sig p320x10 over the next few months and will have the same underwood ammunition in it.
I've been bouncing back and forth between 45 ACP and 10mm to hike and backpack in black Bear Country here in Kentucky. Been looking at Tisas sds D10 1911 10mm I love the look of that gun
Responding to your invitation to think about bears, and considering what is in the safe - The top choice might be a Ruger Redhawk .45 Colt with a 5½ inch barrel loaded with +p heavy bullet loads, or an easily carried S&W 625 Mountain Gun with slightly enhanced standard .45 Colt loads. On another hand, one must ask what recoil spring rate would be needed to safely shoot heavy 9mm loads in a vintage S&W 59? Perhaps the 6½ inch barreled 629 Classic is the more conventional ursine discouragement medicine.
Its an EXCELLENT dangerous game caliber. Im from the PNW and hunt in N.Idaho/MT/WY and AK often. I carry a G20 daily and either a G20 or G40 in the field/backcountry. 10mm is awesome. End of story.
I've had... had being the key word, a S&W 329PD and it is the most uncomfortable gun I have ever shot when loaded with anything suitable for defense. I sold it because I couldn't take a follow-up shot quick enough because my hands hurt so bad. It felt like I put my hands out straight and someone hit them with a baseball bat.
Jerry Miculek started off with .44 mag because he is from the Dirty Harry time. He said he had to shoot enough times to deaden the nerves in his hands to take the pain.
I've describe it the same but use a 2x4 analogy. The claim is, when a bear is on you, you won't feel it. I've had a dozen friends shoot mine, none of them, even very experienced liked it. There's always that one guy who says it's not that bad. The way to go is porting and using a rubber grip of the .500, so I hear. Sold mine for more than I paid for it. My preference is bear spray followed by 10mm G20. Better yet, 12 gauge around the property.
I have a model 329PD 4.15 inch quad ported barrel 44 magnum, a 460V 5 inch muzzle brake equipped full lug barrel 460 S&W magnum, and a 500 S&W magnum with a 6.5 inch semi lug barrel ported so I have it covered. And I own a M&P 2.0 10mm with a 4.625 inch quad ported barrel by Mag-Na-Port. 508T Holosun red dot and X/S tritium night optic height sights with a TAC light on the rail flashlight with a green laser.
A bear expert worth talking too: Tim Mannly (think that’s right spelling of last name). He recently retired from Montana FWP. If you were to do a comprehensive bear behavior/defense class, it might be worth trying to look him up.
357 sig , 357 mag hand loaded provide awesome options. 44 mag provides a large spectrum of options in ammo and can be loaded lighter to out perform 10 mm all day long and become much more controllable . 10 mm yes for capacity and effectiveness, in its right loadings . Revolver rounds provide a large spectrum of loadings with out effecting handgun operation. Revolvers chambered in 357, 41, 44 even in hand loaded 45lc provide a lot of options ! I do love the 10 mm but 9mm not so much for woods carry , not for me, at least.
I was packing a Glock 23 on my badlands pack a few years ago and almost stepped on a brown bear it took more attempts to reach than I’d like to admit! Today I carry a Glock 29 in a alien gear chest rig and recently acquired a S&W 629 and am in the market for a chest rig for it.
Years ago, I was hunting mule deer. We hunted for a week and my buddy took a nice 5 x 6. After the season was over, I was sitting in the barber shop reading an article about grizzly bears. At that time Grizzly bear had been thought to be shot out of Colorado, yet and elk bow hunter had just got mauled by one. He killed it by shoving and arrow into its neck over and over as he was being mauled. That same article talk about 3 rouge grizzlies being taken from Yellowstone and drop into my hunting area a year ago. That meant I was hunting in there with 3 grizzlies running around. The thing is, you don't hunt deer with the same bullet that would be ideal to kill a grizzly if it was to attack you.... so I experimented. It is said Griz can cover 100 yards in about 7 seconds.... working with that time line. I had my rifle on my shoulder with 165 grain bullets coming out of my 300 Weatherby Magnum , so.... seeing a grizzly at 100 yards, how long would it take me to get my rifle off my shoulder, eject the round, put a bear round into the chamber, close the bolt and take aim. ( seconds was the fastest I could do it, which meant the bear would be on me before I could get a round off. In some states you can not carry a pistol while archery hunting or rifle hunting.
10mm is often sought after for bear county or wild hog encounters because it has capacity, power and reasonable availability. There’s plenty of other pistol calibers that would do better but they usually lack capacity and when adrenaline hits it’s not a guarantee you’ll make your shots.
I was told that in Montana if there are no powder burns it is a bad kill , so the 7-10mph is a definite must practice. Especially sence they run up to 35mph in any terrain.
I see the appeal of chest carry. However, I've carried a pistol OWB at 3 o'clock for decades so I'm going reach to that location first under stress. That's why I'm going to continue to carry at that location. Glock 40. Subscribed.
My Glock 40 10mm and a Brown Bear story: In SE Alaska, we were fishing for pinks at the mouth of a small creek where fish were stacked in, waiting for a rain event. We had motored up with the skiff, and my fishing buddy had let me off on the bank, while he chose to fish from the boat. I tied into a half-dozen pinks, and was oblivious to my surroundings. My buddy started yelling "BEAR!", which brought me back to reality quick. That's when I realized I'd left my Glock in the boat!!! In my roughest voice, I started yelling at the bear, which made the bear stand up and check me out from about 40 ft away. YEE- HAW! Eventually he worked away from me, which taught me an excellent lesson: The fanciest gun in the world isn't very effective when it's left the boat! LOL
Dumb. Why in the hell did you not have your gun in a chest rig or side rig?? You go through all that trouble to bring a bear pistol and not have it in a holster? You need to back off the weed dude.
I think the most likely scenario you guys didn’t cover enough is the possibility of only being able to get one round into an animal in a direct charge. Moose, bear, or cat. Which gun would you chose if you thought you only had one single shot.
I carry a Springfield XDM Elite 4.5" 10mm. It is heavy, but it's not terrible to wear all day walking around. It would be even more comfortable under the shoulder rather than the hip. I am mostly concerned about black bear and mountain lions where I hang around. There have been brown bears spotted in my state again very recently, which is a new phenomenon. I am not an experienced pistol shooter, but after 1 proper lesson and some practice at the range, I can reliably hit a square foot target at 25 yards. It's relatively comfortable to shoot quickly, and the recoil is much easier to deal with than the 3.5" hellcat 9mm I tried out. Granted, thats in a calm and prepared state lol. I just hope I never have to get the real world practical experience.
A couple things to think about,first I also live in Wi. & have been charged by a Black Bear & have read about many blk bear attacks so don’t think they are just a cute,slow rollie pollies! Black bears can be on you real fast if they have a mind to be & cubs are NOT always a reason for a bad attitude! I hunted deer with a Ruger Redhawk 44 mag.for years loaded with my handloads & took many deer with it,I carried it in a custom made western style leg holster with a wider belt & dropped about 3”-4”lower on my leg tied above my knee. This put the handgun in the perfect position for easy fast draw & was super comfortable. About high power 44mag. cartridges,some manufacturers will state to Only use in Ruger handguns! You mentioned S&W but some of them will not handle hot loads like 320-340 grainers! Also there is an option for all the 1911 lovers & that’s the 460 Rowland,which is a barrel,& spring change to get damn near 44 mag.power out of your 1911! Plus you can switch it back to the 45 ACP setup when that power is not needed.
Ran into a griz at 60-80 yards last week. He stood up on his hind legs to get a better look at me. He was fn massive. He took off and didn't want anything to do with me. Griz are staying out later and later for gut piles. On had with me my 6.5x55 156 gr, and my 10mm with bear loads. I wanted my 300wsm that day but you can't find any rounds right now. I felt the 6.5 was too small and the 10mm will require some luck. I have at least 5 cans of bear spray and didn't have one with me. Walked out to road in thick brush and got dark on me. Wasn't fun to say the least.
One thing I don't hear talked about much in this conversation is bullet diameter in relation to penetration, because higher energy doesn't necessarily equal higher penetration. As well as relation of velocity verses weight in bullet selection. People usually go heavy for the higher energy l, but it seems to me that s smaller, diameter and faster bullet may penetrate better. That inclination makes me like the 357 mag.
That would be my choice, also. Bears have thick hair, thick hide, thick layers of fat, and large bones... all that, before you even enter vital tissue/organs. With the same bullet construction, a 357mag will out-penetrate any other pistol out there (speed kills)!
I do drives for bear here in pa. When I am a driver I run a 7 3/8 500mag s&w in a galco Kodiak chest holster. When I'm a stander I run a weatherby mark v in 340wby.
Why are neither of you mentioning the 460 Rowland? Put the conversion kit on your 45 1911 and you’re in the 44 mag class! Ck out the bffalo bore ballistics. All on your 1911 frame or the 960 Rowland with 357 mag ballistics. Amazing!
Well done. I live in NW Wyoming. Some points to make. I see griz 1/4 of my days while I’m chasing elk and deer. So far they’ve all been well behaved. I wouldn’t count on the report of a shot deterring an animal that was previously intent on attacking you. My buddies in AK had a griz sitting on their last load of moose. After a warning shot that got no response, one of the guys fired up the chainsaw and that was the thing that induced a bluff charge. I’ve tried most setups and have settled on carrying my 10mm on the underside of my bino harness. “FHF Style” Something my cop buddy brought up once was that cops originally didn’t like the switch to auto pistols because they don’t like to cycle and return to battery during entangled gunfights. Which is almost certainly what a griz attack will be. Having said that, he carries a P320 10mm. Thanks!
We really need to specify penetration values in order to answer this question. If we are aiming for maximum penetration, what is the realsitic difference in straight-line penetration between each of these loads, and at what depth do we feel we have reached 'enough?' When you look at energies and decide 10mm is fine even though it is half .44 Mag, how do you defend 10 against the same argument when you could go half again and shoot the 'anemic' 9? If the difference in measureable penetration is huge, there is your argument for one or another, but if they are all surprisingly close in actual penetration depth, then you just choose the easiest to carry, handle, and afford, regardless of the 'muh power' and 'anti-anemic' crowds, right? I think the performance of the 9mm will be a lot closer realistically to the 10mm than people expect and I think almost all of it comes down to the hardcast bullet. But again, we can't definitively answer this bear question without a max penetration test of the loads in question. Until then, it is all theoretical or anecdotal evidence from places like the ammoland article collection. We know .44 Mag works with shot placement. The question is how much weaker you can go and still defeat the beast, right?
Bear spray does deter grizzlies when a cloud of it is deployed at a distance sufficient to incapacitate the bear and change its mind and direction. Though grizzlies do bluff charge, they will also commit to lethal contact for several reasons: (females) defending cubs, protecting a nearby kill, protecting territory, hunger, bad mood, injured, etc. They may not even register an injury (such as being shot with a low-powered pistol round or even a high-velocity rifle round) when they are in attack mode. One man shot a grizzly with a .458 Win Mag at point blank range in the face and blew apart its jaw. The bear still mauled him and bit him and managed to even pick him up by the buttocks. He wasn’t able to shake him like a rag doll though. You must STOP the bear’s progress toward you. A grizzly can cover like 100 yards with his heart shot. If it gets to you it is going to severely hurt you and change your life. Any of you who thinks a 9mm is suitable is confusing grizzly/brown bears with black bears. A black bear does not possess the same mindset as a grizzly. An attacking black bear is likely to be in predation mode, and not enraged. Easier to scare off.
I carry a Glock 20 in 10mm and its my go to when im hunting. I do sometimes carry a Ruger Alaskan 44mag but i do want to get a S&W 460mag. I can use the S&W 460mag and also carry the 454 casul so it makes it a bit more versitile. I love guns and i collect them but im a avid shooter also.
Im a 40 year Alaska bushman whose been bear attacked 5 times. 3 up close w the guns muzzle shoved hard into their chests. 1 shot kills. Im sure ALL the blast gasses going onto the bear did as much damage as the hot bearslug going through them. I also worked as a remote game spotter for F & G for 25 years with their top bear experts & was teaching THEN stuff about grizzly behaviors they didnt know. I ran a bear bait station for 25 years which really focused in a LOT of bears to my area. Had multiple generations of grizzlies come visit decade after decade. I spent entire summers up in that stand observing them even long after the hunting season was over & i was no longer feeding them. Have had 1000s of encounters. Only 5 went bad. Not bad odds figuring you folks in town are in more danger than i will ever be. I was attacked by a moose wounded, starving 8 ft grizzly our 1st summer. Again by a 10 ft blackie in that valley a year later eho was killing/ eating the smaller bears coming to that station. Both other blackies & small grizzlies. Went 13 years w/o another attack until the 14th summer & was attacked 3 times in that summer alone. Non since then. At least you guys were honest about having NO experience. I can tell because your focus is all wrong & you know nothing about bear anatomy or what theyre like when pissed & fully adrenalized. So, heres the facts. You can blow a bears heart & lungs clean out of them & they can still keep going long enough to kill you on sheer rage adrenalin & muscle memory. They have HUGE red blood vells that hold a lot of oxygen even with their slow heartbeat & can keep going for minutes after fatally struck. A spine shot is not necessarily a stop shot. Many reports, one personal, of bears that kept going with their spines totally severed. Theres only ONE absolute stop shot. A brain shot into their FACE where theyre brains at. The magic triangle across the eyes down to the nose. Or at the BASE of the ear sideways across the skull. Even a 22 L.R. will do that. ( Check out " Cree, Bella Twin 22 kill in Canada 1953.") Contrary to popular myth a bears skull is NOT bulletproof. No thicker than ours is & just as easily punctured. Any modern bullet will NOT bounce off their skulls. Thats an excuse made by folks who dont know bear anatomy. Their skulls drop sharply downwards right behind their eyes so any shot above the eyes is just going through jaw muscles & really pissing the bear off more. In a real attack, bear spray is USELESS. Only makes em madder & a sow w cubs, once stung, sees you as an even bigger threat to her cubs & more determined to kill you. Just leave the damned spray in a dumpster where it belongs. Youll never have time to use both anyway. Theres basically 3 kinds of attacks. Territorial, predatory & defensive. All can go S very quickly & most attacks are 15 yards or less. You'll have 1-3 seconds of response time if your lucky. You WONT have time to aim! If you cant point shoot fast up close your screwed. And the time one takes to aim is in the bears favor & you lose. This CANNOT be stressed enough. Sights WILL get you killed. Here in Alaska we have a system called " Breaking them down." If theyre attack close while hunting & you can, shoot em through both shoulders shattering the shoulder plates so they CANT get up & chase you & then deliver the heart/lung shot. Then WAIT and let them die before approaching them. Usually long enough to smoke 2 cigaretts. If its a long range heart shot just sit tight & let em die before they know where your at. If the bears eyes are CLOSED, hes NOT dead. Just bluffing you to get closer so he can finish the job. They ALWAYS die w their eyes OPEN. NO EXCEPTIONS. Still a good idea to approach them, gun in hand, finger on the trigger & poke em in the eyeball w the bbl. If they flinch or blink, PULL THE TRIGGER! As for caliber. Whatever one is familiar with & can operate when super hyped & adrenalized is what you should use. Super magnum calibers are not necessarily the best. Functionality & familiarity is far more importaint. A 9 your naturally good with beats a 454 or bigger your not absolutly comfortable & good with. Loaded w proper bear bullets like the B.B. outdoorsman or Underwoods hardcasts or high velocity extream penetrators youll do fine. Personally, in my 10mm i alternate between both. Underwoods 220 H.C. & 140 grain hot E.P.s for the best of both worlds starting with the Extream penetrator in the tube for less recoil. Then theres the MYTH that a person has to be BETWEEN a sow & her cubs. Thats pure B.S. All one has to be is in the general area on ANY side of the sow. Then theres the lil known fact that a sow w 2-3 full grown cubs will ALL attack you simultaniously once the sow starts the charge. Thats where semi autos shine. Revolvers just dont have the round count needed in that worst case senario. Theres plusses & minuses to both semi autos & revolvers. Its kind of a tossup & again what one can handle & point shoot fast/accurate. I WAS a big bore relvolver guy for decades but we had an older F&G officer who did his entire career w only a 40 S&W single stack using standard FMJ rounds. The newer bear bullets didnt exist yet. He had several attacks & stopped every one w 1 shot in the FACE up close. Too close to miss in case it was only a bluff charge. He laughed at us big bore guys. Called us PUSSIES. Its taken decades for others to wise up. Self included. I love my XDM-E. its been 100% reliable & eats everything i feed it no problem. At 15 yards i can pull & put 2 double taps into a 5 inch circle on a good day & slightly more on a bad day. I dont even carry my 45/70 rifle anymore except during moose season. Am totally comfortable w the 10 & i know i can stop anything in Alaska w it if i have to. IF i were still carrying a wheelgun it would be the Toklat in 454. 4 inch bbl but that only as a backup. Its a bears front end thats gonna hurt you. Concentrate on that & problem solved. Like the F&G warden said. Hed never seen/ heard of a bear attacking anyone by running at them backwards. Lotta wisdom in those words. On a sad sidenote. We had a tourist up here bear killed. Hed brought a 357 w him but his idiot friend told him that only a 44 or bigger would stop a bear. Tourist went fishing alone w only bearspray. What was left with his shredded body was an empty can of bearspray. His 357 would have been more than enough to blow that bears brains out. Again, its not the caliber & power but placement. Since he had time to deploy the spray he had time to shoot. And NOBODY who knows bears up here goes out unarmed & only newbies carry spray until they learn better. You dont screw around w bears. Theyre always armed. People should be too.
I have witnessed 2 completely conflicting bear encounters in my life. Both black bear. Basically, one bear was in a residential area and got chased off by a little dog it easily could have eaten. The second bear was in a camp ground and couldn't have been less concerned with the people or dogs trying to scare it off.
My best argument is I own a 10mm in kimber camp guard 2 a 44 mag 629 6” barrel and a 460 Rowland in a Springfield xd I’ll say that the 10 mm and 44 are plenty good the 10mm gives ya more death pills the 44 gives ya a few less but they carry more authority ..the one I absolutely would take above the 10 and 44 is the 460 Rowland .. I would recommend is the 460 Rowland.. I have Dirty Harryied a few deer with my 629 and my 10 mm I bought for my wife but I have hunted bear with my 460 Rowland and deer it’s performance was perfect the bear dropped on the spot and the deer went 10 yards the nice thing is 460 Rowland gives dam close to 44 mag performance in a semi automatic handgun and I can still run 45 acp at the range over 1000 rounds not a single jam
That magnum 44 energy of 1500ish is misleading. I bet most people can put 4 on a target with 10mm, while magnum only 2- in same amount of time. Therefore energy is almost the same at the target. Plus with 4 on target, you have more chance of hitting something crucial. As somebody commented, they probably can dump 15 mag of 10mm while only dump out whole 6 on 44mag. Another interesting caliber is 357 sig, underwood has 65/68gr monolithic, that goes 2100fps, 637 ft-lbs. Can have a conversion from s&w 40 shield 3.1inch, very concealable, 7+1 (20oz empty), 0.96 inch width, or s&w 3.6 with 13+1 (26oz empty), i believe 1.16 inch width. Or there are plenty of glocks 40s that can be converted to 357 sig. Its basically mini 10mm, and to call it mini 10 is an understatement. I think i saw a video on youtube, about speed and accuracy of 10mm vs those magnum revolvers. 10mm not only put way more on target, but also better groups. Lastly, somehow 357 sig recoil is more like back and forth, and not up and down, at least in s&w conversions (easier to stay on target).
Grizzly or brown bear country: .460 Rowland: Semiauto/lots of rounds, with the power of .44 magnum. Comes in polymer flavors for lighter weight on the hip Black bear country: 10mm Glock or similar
