People just like to hate on videos like this because our current culture doesn't like it when people obviously care deeply about things we deem outside of the norm, or not important enough, or a waste of time. Deal with it. If these two guys care deeply about coffee, expresso, and crema, then that's their happy deal, and some of us are happy to learn about it purely because it's fun to see people who are really dedicated to something. Excellent series, ChefSteps, and I love that you guys aren't afraid to get into some pretty arcane details about food & drink.
I totally agree!!! I hate when people respond to passion with "you have way too much time one your hands". Yeah Michelangelo and Einstein had way too much time on their hands. What a bunch of losers!
Agree, it's no different than when discussing / tastes a nice 12 year old rum or a good whiskey, or anything else that focuses on flavor, texture and so on. Actually think I'm going to get me an espresso right now. Have a nice day all you coffee lovers! :)
Some rather harsh and, I think, poorly informed comments here. I am no expert, but I am taking an exceptionally well-regarded coffee preparation course at a Colombian university and have watched dozens upon dozens of videos. I find yours to be well-presented and based upon sound theory. I have learned a good deal from your videos. Beyond the science, there will always be room for subjectivity. It's about taste after all and no two coffee drinkers are alike. Thanks so much for your videos.
+David Hogben Thank you very much for the Kind words David. We understand that there are many opinions about one of the greatest beverages ever devised, and we only hope to contribute new questions and ideas for the discussion.
Thank God! I thought it was just me that hated heated cups, and I like to swirl my shot until the crema really thins and make the flavour more uniform (the top - the most crema - is the worst part of a shot while the bottom is the most delicious). I find that the amount and color and whatever of the crema has nothing to do with the eventual taste of a shot except the mouthfeel. Absolutely spot on.
I personally love espresso, but I never really paid too much attention to how it was made, or how much effort and thought they put into making it. Now I've learned to fully appreciate it, because of that sheer effort and intricacy that goes into espresso. It's amazing.
Thank you for spending your time on these videos. Please ignore the whiners. They clearly don't appreciate your work. Block them so they can't learn from you.
We're being able to witness the development of a new culture/science. That due to the fact that never before in history so many people were playing with espresso coffee machines around the world. That's allowed people who are very passionate about espresso (like these guys) to spend their lives developing their palate, exploring new possibilities and sharing experiences, information, ideas and tendencies. I love how the web has allowed us all to be in touch with this level of narrowed down information.
In Italy, every espresso has lots of crema. They could taste bad, but they all have a fantastic density. Crema is not just visual. It feels different in the mouth. So, while it's true that crema is not everything, it's also true that is absolutely a lot. Also, taste is extremely subjective. Some of the blends I tried here in London are absolutely disgusting to me, while I see people queueing to drink it. I am for stronger blends, without any acidity, while many Londoners like acidic, fruity tastes. But debating if one is "clearly better" than another is like saying that key lime pie is clearly better than a sacher torte. This also works for the taste. It's not true that crema is the worst part of an espresso. It's subjective. You should have said that "some people don't like the taste of it". But claiming that it's the worst part... well... too subjective.
I had very bad acid re-flux a year ago and went through many , many coffees. The ones with zero acidity always tasted the best and didn't bother my stomach at all in any way. I settled on an Italian coffee using Arabica beans using my old Francis Francis machine.
This makes perfect sense - getting rid of personal opinions and relying on a proven brewing recipe and ratio makes great sense! Sounds SO much like brewing good beer. Experience and sticking to a proven recipe matters most!
I having been drinking coffee for years but really did not know anything about it other than it helped me stay awake at work, or it gave me that pick me up in the morning. I recently participated in a cupping class at Texas Coffee School and that one simple class has broaden my desire to delve into this culture of coffee. I want to learn as much as I can about it. I have been watching a variety of videos and I must say your series of videos have been extremely informative, especially the Espresso Theory video. Thank you for posting.
Excellent - a reality check for the perfectionists who dwell on and spend way too much time trying to achieve something that is for the most part a once a week "I did it right" experience. One truth is as we know, most people's tastes are different and there is that magical pure point and acceptable range for all of us no matter if it is wine or espresso. Find your likings, if not commercially selling, and try to stick with a consistent routine. The prep variables are not 100% the same every day. Stick with a go to recipe and a PRACTICAL, repeatable, disciplined routine in how you prepare and then draw, and you'll 99% of the time be rewarded with very good results within your pure point taste range.
In Italy, every barista will serve you a nice dense coffee. Even the crappiest bar behind an alley will. And they are not all extremely trained. It's clearly the result of the four variables: temperature, pressure, quality of water, finesse of the grain.
I never knew I'd be so into coffee. I started as a barista for Starbucks and I learned to love everything that has to do about coffee. I bought a little mr coffee machine for home use and I really like to toy with it, although I would really like to purchase a really good one in the future. What type of machine do you recommend? I'm looking for something under $500.00. I tend to drink coffee quite often and I also prepare for guests and family. Thanks,
David Cipriano i use breville brista express. best value for burr grinder and single boiler machine in my opinion. red color one is on sale for 450 something rather than 599 regular price too right now
I'm such a big fan of robusta though. My favourite blends are at least 30% arabica lacks a certain punch for me I really enjoy the bitterness (without the acidity of badly made coffee...) I'd love to try a robusta only coffee just to test my devotion to the species haha. There is one species of coffee not used commercially Coffea Liberica- how come? I have been looking into anthropology of coffee for my uni work and came across this with no clear explanation...
Thank you Gentlemen for your video! I am coming to "espresso world" from pipe smoking world which has a lot of Myths as you explain in your videos for crema etc.Much obliged for the clarifications and have my best regards from Athens-Greece.
I loved how they simplified 'coffee jargon' that people love to throw around, often to make themselves appear like connoisseurs (much like I love throwing around Latin and french phrases when speaking English, sometimes ad nauseum!). At the end of the day, everyone of us has (and I daresay should have) different tastes, lies and dislikes. For example - my good coffee is coffee in a small ceramic cup, with milk, a little sugar, and not too bitter. Sometimes I like foam, sometimes i don't. Sometimes I like more sugar, sometimes I like less / no sugar. Sometimes I like my coffee to be strong, sometimes I don't. I nearly always like to make my own coffee, since I enjoy doing so. Perhaps others don't. Anyone who has stepped into a kitchen and made enough food knows that there is no one single way to make a dish (or coffee) that is right. There are many ways, and what appeals to some is disliked by others. It is normal. To think one coffee expresso is perfect and the other is not is simply gross arrogance!
As a coffee professional I say that the "brew ratio" is just as useful/not useful as the "crema color". This convo shows some insight but leaves much very important info unsaid. Espresso extraction is all about the avoidance of channeling through proper distribution, and stopping extraction at the desired bitterness level, period. Assuming good coffee and roast, it is up to the grinder to provide a good grind (particle size distribution, etc. etc. etc.) It is up to the barrista to do the rest. That is, to pack the shot in a way that has the best likelihood of eliminating variance in puck density and also pulling the cup out of the espresso stream at the desired time. This last can be done in a few different ways, through brew ratio or threw crema color, it doesn't really matter if the barista is experienced in his trade and with the coffee in question.
There is a difference between bad robusta and premium robusta. And the fact one doesn't pull single origin robusta, doesn't make its contribution to espresso invalid. Robusta isn't necessary for a great espresso, but to say it is just added to provide crema and color is false. Robusta in small percentages (5-15%) can add body and mouthfeel to an espresso.
***** Indeed, when i was in Florence one of the older, well respected quality coffee bars used a relatively cheap $25 per KG/2.2lb Lavazza Super Crema blend, which is 80% arabica 20% robusta. It was the main blend used for most of their medium priced espresso, latte, cappuccino, americano etc.. with a local farmer that imports hand grown and roasted beans from family out of country supplying their more gourmet drinks, as well as most of the Au Lait's and Pour Over method drinks. So if one of the better Italian traditional coffee bars is fine with using $25/KG 80/20 arabica/robusta blend in most of their drinks i don't see why it would be a problem. And also, they weren't the only one that used that same beans too; i asked a friend working there about it and she said that a handful of other bars used the same beans as well (she'd worked at quite a few places)
nuttynut242 Yeah, mixing in a bit of robusta; while "slightly" decreasing the overall aroma and flavor quality, will add more hints and notes of different flavors/aromas you usually won't see in pure arabica. For that reason alot of coffee connoisseurs will call pure arabica "boring" sometimes.
I don't think that was the intent of their comment, to denigrate robusta as a good blending coffee for espresso, or to limit its use to the crema, though it's not entirely clear.
vinylme I be used Moka pots for many years and used all kinds of coffee beans and never had crema on the finished cup. The extraction profiles for Moka and espresso are perhaps much too different to get similar results for both methods. In my opinion both have their merits.
I get crema in the pot until i pour it off into the cup. then it mostly vanishes. But im still experimenting with coffees and grinds in my moka pot, so maybe i just havent tried a good coffee for crema yet.
These are all fantastic videos. Thanks for sharing! I've been going through your espresso class and it's providing a lot of eye-opening information, in spite of how many blogs I've devoured on espresso. In particular, I was interested that lighter roasts generally do better at higher temperatures and darker roasts, lower. I always thought it was the reverse. Curious to hear a little more of your thinking on that!
+ChefSteps Thanks! One other thing to consider is the variable of pre-infusion and how that affects everything. Not sure if that is already on the agenda but I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that as well.
Very interesting. You talked about an expresso sitting and flavours developing/changing which made me wonder about the 25-30 second expiration time of an expresso that I have heard about. Is this a myth too?
I am glad I found this video. It reassured me of some of the things i ditched along the way in order to expect consistency. For one i totally agree on the hot cup rule being unnecessary. If you are obsessed about really experiencing every cup intimately (like me) there is nothing more enjoyable than to experience the flavours of espresso change as it cools. It is least interesting when hot. What's better is that every coffee is unique in that sense..... I like to make my espressos with much lighter roasts and I am not a blend kinda guy so i don't ever expect thick crema. If i do get it then that is a nice surprise but it won't enhance the flavour. I just know I will be expecting a little more body ;-) . Yield is what its all about. It gets to a point where you've pulled that many espressos that by plain smell I can tell when to cut the shot. It rarely makes a huge difference to yield. I always land it somewhere between 20-27ml. Different origins different yields.. Thanks for the video I really liked it.
My Favorite Ground has a low/small but thick Crema......maybe 3/16 inch high. But it's my favorite, so who IMO should care about the DEAPTH of the crema if it's not your favorite ground. I agree with you.
Crema isn't bad tasting at all. It greatly enhances the espresso experience due to its texture. Blonding usually does correlate with and thus reflect level of extraction for many beans and blends, and brew ratio similarly doesn't always indicate the best places to extract the best taste for every bean. Both are to help guide extraction. Some single origin Robusta is actually delicious. Italians use Robusta for various reasons, but mainly cost-related. The fact that they use it just for the crema is what's a myth. Some of what is said here is correct. But other things aren't.
I personally agree with them that crema does kinda taste bad most of the time, but if you like it, which I have met a handful of people who do, then awesome! While blonding does loosely correlate with the stage of an extraction a coffee is at in the brewing process, it doesn't correlate at all with tastiness, and that's why I believe these two spoke negatively about stopping shots based on blonding. For instance if you stopped an espresso that's dialed in to be a tasty ristretto shot, you would want to stop the shot long before it blonds because stopping it at blonding would make the shot taste very over extracted. I don't believe that they were trying to say that every single origin robusta tastes bad, all that they said is that many would find SO robusta's to taste bad, not that there weren't good ones out there, or even that there aren't people who enjoy robustas in general. I am not sure of the validity of the rumor about why Italians use robustas, however I'm sure you are right, but I'm also sure that there may be a little bit of truth to what these two said about them using it for the sake of bigger crema, both may be true in certain circumstances.
@@Leapoffaith4 "taste" isn't really applicable to crema, imo. It's not a flavourful portion of the shot. It's relatively bland, like most foamed things. Crema serves mainly to enhance texture, not taste. i.e. Creaminess. I essentially said the same thing about blonding you said. It's a guide, not a rule, differs according to bean, roast, wash, and what one is going for, etc. So I agree. Yes, there is a little bit of truth to it, but as crema itself enhances texture and the body when stirred or swirled in, bigger crema also does = better texture and body in some cases.
The quality and flavor of Starbucks coffee declined years ago. There was a time, before they become the behemoth of the coffee industry, that Starbucks had some good beans & decent espressos ...nowadays, it’s mostly less than mediocre.
I don't understand what is the butthurt is about in the comments. crema is pretty important for coffee presentation, nice crema gives you better opportunity for nice latte art, looks pretty etc.
Good video. I've had shots that did not look like a model espresso but the flavor was amazing. I've also had shots that looked awesome but were terrible. It should come down to the flavor.
I agree that blonding isn't the best diagnostic tool, but yield seems useful only once you have found the right taste and want to repeat it. Wouldn't a better way to dial in a shot be to use a spoon and constantly taste the espresso as it comes out, stop the pour when it stops tasting good, and then record the dose, the tamp/temp/time and pressure profile?
Not really as coffee is generally a harmonious amalgamation of many competing flavours that can create a balanced whole. Try tasting the first drips of espresso, then try the middle part of the shot, then the end. By themselves they generally taste unbalanced and just downright unpalatable but combined can become something far more nuanced and enjoyable. The last part of the shot whilst it is thin and water and generally far more tasteless may be needed to reduce the concentration of the espresso so that flavours are more easily detected.
To add to what has already been said, this is a complex extraction of organic compounds from a ground up and re-aggregated organic material through heated water under pressure. If you think about it in scientific terms, there are so many variables at play, but the key is reduce the effect of variables, and extract the right amount of the right flavored organic compounds, which takes a certain amount of heat, water, pressure, and time, and proper fineness of grind and consistent and proper aggregate density.
In response to Zander van barrel - Its not bad for you if they do - I like good coffee made by my father which he learned to do Im not sure when in life - he is from a more tea oriented society although there are some good things about coffee if consumed here and then and in mod - if you drink it too much it may not be good but no ingredient taken to excess is good for you - regardless to what it is. Just have it like a treat in moderation like you do everything else
haha its funny because I got this thick crema layer with my super old crappy beans which i used just to waste and teach myself (at the time there was the pressurized portafilter). I took the thing out the beans roasted 6 days ago and the crema was muchhh weaker. The second coffee was definitely better. I just watched this because i'm totally new to espresso making (but not to drinking coffee ;p
Alright, everyone, some people love the taste of crema and others hate it. Some people love the majority of robusta's and others may not. These two guys opinions are based on trends that they've seen in the specialty coffee industry as well as their own personal preferences, it may be true for them and not for you, and that's totally okay.
I’ve done plenty of taste degradation tests on shots. Dark roasts “die” much faster than med to light. Make a latte with shots that sit for 0 sec and then make one that sit for 60 sec. the darker the roast the more sensitive to becoming “dead” or oxidized. But all the snobby baristas love their medium roasts so much that the don’t bother testing with dark roasts.
This is one of the few ChefSteps espresso videos I almost totally disagree with. The tone in these videos is how important TDS meters are and consistent ratios, with actually diminishing the use of one's five senses (and their brain) to diagnose a shot. When Charles says "the idea that you can diagnose an espresso just by looking at the crema is a bit shortsighted" especially irks me. Watching the shot develop is not the only way to diagnose espresso. But it is part of the overall diagnosis of espresso, especially when trouble shooting a shot. While I do agree that not every shot with beautiful reddish brown tiger flecking on the crema will taste great I can tell you from a lot of experience that shots with blond crema are more often than not the result of problems: over extraction, old, stale beans, old, stale grind, or a temperature pull issues, or a combination of the above. I honestly cannot recall a 4point shot (out of 6) that I've had of espresso with a blond, thin head of crema. I like this series for the good education parts within it, but the hosts rely far too much on refractometers and brew ratios as their advice, when those things are, IMO, blinders for the the growing espresso industry pursuing the "god shot" of espresso. (yes, I also disagree with their god shot myth video).
***** I have a 16 year history online of sharing almost exactly what you ask for, from 100+ hours of podcasts, to dozens of hours of video, to literally thousands and thousands of photographs, to literally enough words typed to fill an encyclopedia. From coffeekid.com to coffeegeek.com, from Vimeo to RU-vid. From Instagram to U-Stream (where I did a lot of live broadcasts from the old CoffeeGeek Lab, and they are still archived there). From helping to organize and judge in the first Canadian barista championship to being the first Canadian fully qualified to judge at the WBC. If you want action to back up my words, all you need to do is look at the volume of content online I've already posted. That said, I do have some plans to update and more formalise my current theories on espresso evaluation and execution once I do get the new CoffeeGeek lab up and running. But that's at least 12-16 months away at this point.
***** I have to agree with you honestly, while crema is not the end all be all it's definitely an indicator of being in the right direction. Although it is true that a (admittedly minute few) couple blends that are fantastic espresso makers have little to no crema or "unhealthy" looking crema; but overall, a lack of, or poor crema "generally" means that the coffee is either not quite fresh enough (or even too fresh in the case of some beans that require a few hour period for the oils to settle), not quite ground right, not roasted enough/too much roasting, or a combination of any of the three.
Thank God for the mention how crema tastes gross. I work for Nespresso, and people judge the coffee on the crema, and I'm like 'the crema is bitter and gross. Don't taste it'.
so basically, what all their videos are saying is everything is just a myth, nothing necessarily means anything, and just do whatever and it's all GREAT! YEA!!!!!
we all taste things differently..........crema can taste great......the next time you pull a decent shot, add about 9 mls. milk , 9mls. of 10% creme and sprinkle the the top of the crema with a half tspn. of brown sugar........ now you can spoon up that crema ,
Boom! I'm glad you pointed out that crema tastes terrible-I thought I was alone on realizing this. I find the crema to be very visually appealing, but it actually has a reasonably acrid taste. Crema is actually caused by nitrogen from the air that goes into solution when the water is under pressure, and then leaves solution when pressure is dropped. A good hint to this is how similar it looks (when espresso is pulled into a clear cup) to the cascading effect that you get when a pint of Guinness is pulled from a nitrogen tap. The huge surface area of bubbles leaving solution probably take a good amount of aromatic compounds out of solution with them, releasing them to the air and giving the cup a nice aroma, but then again, these aromatics are taken out of the actual coffee. My Aeropress makes fantastic-tasting espresso, but with absolutely no crema, because the pressure is not there to dissolve the nitrogen-which I actually find a little bit sad, because I do like the way it looks.
xtraa Indeed, you can go to old florence to some of the oldest traditional coffee bars in Italy and find people using 80/20 Arabica/Robusto blends or 90/10 for more expensive ones etc.. When i was in Florence there was a place where a girl i had befriended worked as a Barista and she showed me some of the process and guess what they were using? Lavazza Super Crema, which is a $25 per Kg/2.2lb medium roast 80% arabica / 20% robusta espresso blend that you can order from amazon. Now it is definitely a legit Italian import espresso and does make great crema, but the fact that it's 20% robusta does NOT make it a bad blend, to the contrary actually; pure arabica is considered "boring" by many connoisseurs. The mixture, while slightly lessening the overall aroma and quality a TINY bit, simultaneously adds in more hints/notes and flavors/scents etc.. not seen in any pure arabica blend out there. Although i do have to disclose that they only used the Lavazza Super Crema for their cheaper to medium priced beverages, specifically in espresso, latte, cappuccino, americano etc.. whereas for their SUPER high quality stuff that many of the wealthy locals would use, including insanely strong Au Lait styled drinks and pour over style brews, they used a local bean harvested from a very small but EXTREMELY well known for fantastic quality farm where one old man meticulously selected only the greatest beans and roasted them himself in small batches on his own hand delivering them to the shop from his land on the edge of the city. Ironically even this super secret beans that had amazing taste weren't that expensive according to her; she said the guy had already earned his fortune and only did this as a hobby to keep retirement busy so he didn't feel a need to overcharge lol.
xXDarkxIdealsXx Thanks for your great reply and 100% acknowledge. Yes I totally feel you and I'd like to go on a search for the perfect coffee, after I finished my working life. Hopefully soon enough to pay this old man near Firenze a visit. :)
Wait...creme tastes "terrible?" I wholeheartedly disagree with that sir. One likes what they like. I hate it when people try to use science to tell an individual what they do and don't like.
So two office coffee-nerds in the U.S. decide that during the espresso tradition that exist arguably since 1948 (Invention of the lever espresso-machine) The Italians got it al wrong?......
leungchaan Typically 80/20 (80% arabica 20% robusta) for the good stuff, sometims 90/10 for very niche expensive blends, and i've seen cheaper blends of like Lavazza or Illya use 60/40 arabica/robusta.
More accurately coffee isn't grown in Italy, but, yes. I'm not sure where I got that from anymore. Maybe I just read that Italians started using Robusta because it was easier to grow and took the logical leap too far ::shrug::
This is great to know, I have been using different types of arabica beans from different areas of the globe, and I get a different result on the look of the shoot, while every other variable such as the grind and the timing and temp are on the money, or at least pulling the best shot I can. They taste great, but because of the level of crema on the shot, I've been under the impression that I'm failing somewhere. So this make perfect sense, I was thinking I sucked bad at it lol!!
I guess the crema being the worst tasting part of the espresso is also subjective. The crema is my favorite part of the espresso; so much so that I always run my finger around the edge of the shot glass after I pour the shot into the demitasse to taste the crema that remains along the edge. I do enjoy your videos but I just disagree on that one point.
jiinx72 I have enjoyed the crema to be the best part of the espresso shot from every place I've had espresso. That includes the espresso I make here at home. That being said, I am in full agreement with you.
+Eric Coovert Completely agree with you here. I was very surprised when he said that crema is the worst tasting part of espresso. I've always felt the crema is the best part of espresso wherever I order espresso, certainly not the worst. Is it common to think that the crema doesn't taste good? Why do people obsess over crema if they don't even like it... I do like italian roasts with some robusta btw. it really does create a nice crema taste of which I happen to like a lot.
Crema does not "taste terrible." It is incredibly complex and imo, the absolute BEST part of an espresso. Referring to crema tasting terrible is not unlike a teenager's first sip of alcohol coming to the same conclusion. After admitting such a foolish perspective it's clear dude in the dark shirt is in the coffee business for reasons other than the flavour of the actual coffee - which is disappointing. My money is on the air of aristocracy combined with the selfish desire for the perceived wealth in an industry saturated with entitled wannabe's. AKA hipster. VIVA LA CREMA!
2 Americans talking about espresso is like 2 Italians talking about Matza Ball soup!!!! If the Creama in your opinion doesn't taste good, I would like to know what kind of coffee are you guys drinking?
Or maybe it's just because if you grow up in Italy, you're likely to only experience espresso with significant robusto fractions because of traditions in Italian coffee culture shaping what you think is "good" espresso, and not because Italians have a genetic predisposition to coffee?
