Even a Perfect Meritocracy Would Be Bad: Michael Sandel Interview 

I encourage everyone to watch Michael Sandel's Harvard University lecture series on *_Justice._*

Dude, what a great guest. Legend. Your podcast has got a level of intellectual engagement that is well beyond almost all other politics podcasts out there.

As a disabled person, if the world is a perfect meritocracy, I'd be sleeping on the street.

A friend of mine was having trouble gaining employment, so he went to school for two years and spent $25,000 on his education so that he could get a job reviewing and approving commercial real estate contracts. After he spent this time and money, he learned the hard way that he would NEVER get the job for which he worked and trained so hard, because he's over 45. Your education, talents, and abilities mean NOTHING in modern America. What DOES matter is who you know, and who you blow... as well as your age, skin color, gender, religion, background, and all the other things they claim to NOT take into consideration.

Interestingly Germans don’t have a crazy high level of collegiate graduates, but they have much higher vocational training.

I wanted to take this opportunity to sincerely thank you, Michael, and tell you all how accidentally stumbling upon the political and economic presentations of both Michael Sandel and Dr. Webster Tarpley saved me from being caught up in the roots of Trump movement, long before Trump was ever a political entity; When it went under the guise of “friendly libertarianism” via the leadership of Ron Paul and his entourage of lawyers & media outlets. Michael Sandel and Dr. Webster Tarpley’s economic and political views freed me from my egos self-indoctrinated views that “made me feel smart,” yet deep down in my heart AND intellectually I could never accept. Being honest with myself I realized that Ron Paul and the far-right libertarian movement made any damn sense. I was just smoking way too much good weed to ever realize it (lol.. sad but true.) Their ideas didn’t improve the lives of anyone - except the elite that they (we.. at the time!) claimed to be against. This was the era in recent history (2008-2010) when Alex Jones hi-jacked and transformed the Ron Paul movement, while Republican power hungry elected officials along with the help of foreign media mogul Rupert Murdochs Fox News used this new electorate to create the Tea Party, thus the basis for the Freedom Caucus was born - which in hand was the beginning stages of the political movement that Trump adopted when he came onto the scene. I cannot believe I was caught up in what became the Trump movement and Austerity inc.! (My name for the modern, post-Boehner, Republican Congress.) This was just a brief adventure in my political background - but I Michael a HUGE thank you 🙏. If you read this, Sir, Thank you so very much. Your work is important - never stop doing what you’re doing.

Extremely interesting conversation. This man made a lot of interesting, incisive points and Mr. Pakman did an excellent job conducting the interview.

Everyone should watch George Carlin’s “ the owners of the Country” , he sure saw this coming!

I’m a 24/7 caregiver in a family of doctorates . I’m fortunate they value my contribution to society , and I value theirs. Being a working class person shouldn’t be devalued by society at all!

Thanks Dave for having Michael on. Such respect for you both

What’s that old saying? The ones with the gold make the rules. (And those rules only benefit “them the people” not “ we the people”. )

The educated look down their nose at the Plumber , UNTIL they need one.. and then they bitch about the price…… Not everyone is supposed to be a rocket scientist!! So because I’m not one, I’m not valued?? Something to think about . Time to start valuing ALL WORKING contributors & reflecting it in living wages..

Gosh, being a Professor of Political Philosophy these days must be an extremely unusual and difficult job. How does an educated person explain the current political climate in the US?

Adult learning on the David Pakman show. Bravo!

Every place I worked had a 20% work force that did 80% of the work and it also had a crew that sat with the boss and made sure those that deserved merit never got it they always had a smile that said I’m above you i don’t need to work I have seen it enough to believe that’s the way of things I found no dignity in working

Excellent. Thanks David, for giving Michael Sandel your platform to be heard.

Technical college is incredibly well funded. I know many people who have gone or are going to Technical College and have minimal debt.

very impressive! halfway thru i ordered the book, then finished the interview. as a college grad from the early 70's, i finished my working career as a construction laborer, making little money, but mostly enjoying the work--just wishing the wages would pay the bills.

Not everyone is cut out for four-year college and beyond. As a policy, our education policy through high school should be focused on preparing young people for job training and practical life skills. And we should not disrespect anyone who is working in jobs that don’t require baccalaureate or graduate degrees. Someone had told me that education is a hammer, not a trophy. Higher education should be for those who intend to make the most of it. If you cannot determine how to make a living with your education, and reconcile the costs with the job market opportunities, potential salary, and your willingness to grind in that career field, then maybe college is not the best option for you at this time.

This interview was absolutely fantastic. I really want to read his book. What a great choice to have Professor Sandel on to talk about his book at the topic of Meritocracy.

A perfect meritocracy would only be a good thing if you have something like an UBI, to ensure that people who can't work (like people with disabilities) don't suffer under it. If everyone's basic needs are met, you could have a meritocracy upwards of that without it affecting people too negatively.

As more people get higher education the employers require even higher education for base entry. Keeping good jobs for those who can afford that. A BA today is almost equivalent to high school diploma in the 80's

This was so fascinating! Definitely need to have Professor Sandel on again.

Excellent interview. Thank you!

I highly recommend the conversation between Michael Sandel and the guy from the CosmicSkeptic RU-vid channel.

I would encourage everyone here to read 'The Tyranny of Merit'. It truly is and excellent book, especially for the credentialed that are almost certainly overrepresented in this audience.

A Michael Sandel vs Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro debate would be interesting.

Thank you for this great conversation with Tywin Lannister

Value of work either by hand or brain should be respected and equalized.

I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. --Ecclesiastes 9:11

I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to attend law school and earn a JD, however, I would not have been able to do so if not for the wealth and privileges I inherited. There are plenty of people smarter than me who didn’t have the opportunities I had through no fault of their own. Meritocracy is a lie.

This makes me think of Joe Manchin. He doesn't want to make child tax credit permanent bc no one had to work or go to school for it.

All these outcomes he's speaking of exist now. Privileged people already think their success is a result of merit

This interview is fantastic.

Great Interview David 👌

By far one of the most interesting interviews I've seen in the past couple years. This could easily run an hour long and still barely scratch the surface

Love me some Sandel

In all western countries there are massive housing shortages, caused by high construction costs, huge labour shortages in the construction industry. The costs of tradesmen in plumbing, bricklaying, electrical and carpentry trades have risen to undreamt of levels, making home construction unaffordable for the ordinary person, huge amounts of labor being used to construct McMansions for executives. For any inroads to be made into the cost and supply of housing far greater funding needs to be applied to trade education, far less to assist degrees into white collar occupations that technology will fast replace. University degreed occupations will largely be gone over the next 20 years. An economy can't run on coders selling programs to each other.

There's a terrific show out of Brazil, on Netflix called 3%. Where everyone at age 18 goes through "the process". Then 3% of the people earn a place in a paradise. Everyone else lives in squalor, sickness, extreme poverty. And everyone believes they are where they should be. Great show, and a great treatment of the dystopian aspects of meritocracy. I recommend it "3%".

Universities/Student Lenders have a huge lobby on both parties

Really good content David! Thank you!

I love his EDX course on justice

There was a time when people who were master technicians and mechanics and the like were deemed respectable and their skills indispensable

Great interview!

Thank you for inviting experts to speak on these issues

Great guest. I love Michael's lecture series and book "Justice". One of my favorites!

I really appreciate your guest Michael Sander.

At the end of his passionate speech, Michael Sandel mentioned the German Social Democrat and minister of finance Olaf Scholz who surprisingly succeeded in winning the best chance to lead the next German government as chancellor. As a matter of fact, Scholz is inspired by Sandel's book in his campaign. From the way in which he is citing it you can safely conclude that he has really studied it. He also observed that reading the British author Michael Young's book "The rise of meritocracy" from 1958, one of Sandel's main references which appeared in German translation as "Long live inequality!" in 1961, shattered some of his own longheld convictions. Vocational training has always been an essential part of German economic life. Angela Merkel tried to woo Trump during her first visit to the Trump White House by offering support for it in all American branches of German companies like Siemens or BMW and many others under the heading "The Apprentice". At that time, she had not yet taken the proper measure of Trump's personality. All German governments regularly intervened when the number of applicants for an apprenticeship outstripped the number of open places. Meanwhile companies have difficulties to find enough applicants. Which has contributed to the rediscovery of the subject of "dignity of work" which once was regarded as one of the most important goals of the "Social Market Economy". The latter had been held up both by Social Democrats and Christian Democrats as the paradigmatic answer to the condemnation of capitalism by our communist neighbours since the 1940's until it became the object of neoliberal derision as the main reason for Germany's "corporatism" and sluggish economic backwardness during the 80's and started to be dismantled after 1989, even if never to the same degree as in Thatcher's Britain or Reagan's US. Now Scholz' interest in Sandel's ideas and the latter's interest in European labour traditions seems like a promising new page in transatlantic relations.

UBI is a more reasonable, important and principled solution to inequality than free college

Absolutely fascinating, I hadnt heard of this guy

Brilliant interview & guest David. It has opened my mind a bit further.

Thank you , Professor. Oh to take a class from you!❤️

Excellent interview!

Great interview.💯

No matter what system, there will always be people on top looking down onto the rest

The Hershey rose garden is always an amazing walk.

Interesting interview. I'd love to watch a formal debate on this topic.

Wow! Fabulous interview

Get a better close-captioning service: it is often telling (deaf) people something completely different! For example, it changed 'own doing' to 'undoing'.

Michael Sandel made a couple of enjoyable tv series in The Netherlands with a group of dutch artists/entrepeneurs in their 20s and 30s where they engaged in Socratic debates about different topics, mostly concerning politics, technology and human rights ("would computerized trials be a good thing?" Is one topic I seem to remember). I would like to see a repeat of that or more of such series.

You should read the "Peter Principal " it says basically people rise to their level of incompetency.

Fantastic insights, Professor Sandel (and a great guest, David). We will be running our nation well, when we are able to run it as we would a beloved family. Something to shoot for in the far future.

Perfect interview!

Can't believe I hadn't seen this earlier. Dr Sandel is among my favourite philosophers in history.

Great guest!!

Good ONE!

This concept promotes the tyranny of idiocracy

Interesting conversation...

You should invite Adrian Wooldridge as the contrary. His book, The Aristocracy of Talent: How Meritocracy made the Modern World, is a great counter argument to Sandel. But both scholars make important points that are noteworthy. Another person talking about this is Raghuram Rajan.

Even the worst meritocracy or geniocracy would be better than our current democracy.

amazing take

Excellent video!

I've been meaning to order his book; thanks for the reminder, I just ordered a copy of it. If anyone is interested, he has a great lecture series available on YT called Justice, which I found very thought provoking.

Couldn't one say that meritocracy often results in blinkering conformism, I'm not sure though that emphasizing some inherent dignity of work truly would be a solution . Great content David love your interviews.

Loved his Harvard Lectures.

The US meritocracy since 1970: The real GDP per total hours worked increased 2.44 times (now twice as many Americans work). The top 10% tier grew their purchasing power 90 times more than that of bottom 50%! 😱 (yeah, by comparison it is shocking!). So, just keep in mind, the outrageous kleptocracy is 90 to 2.44! At least.

What he's saying is if the dog doesn't get the bone, the bone gets the dog?!?

The best book review I came across was in the Nation, entitled "What comes after Meritocracy" I believe.

The idea that people are lazy and want free money. That idea is a lazy thought in it's own right

Incredible! Gems like this is why I subscribe to this channel.

Even if you get a degree from a decent university (like state uni) with a decent degree (something that directly applies to a STEM field), you may not make any more than if you went into a blue collar trade. You have to look at the average earning of graduates, and that info isn't always available. Relatively few universities have high earning average for graduates.

I generally agree with what Sandel is saying, and can see some of this in the Democratic party. I mean... just about everyone in politics seems to take it for granted that life is fundamentally about working and making a buck over any other values. What I don't understand, though... When I listen to Republicans speak, it sounds to me like their argument is 100% meritocratic. The rich are rich because they're better than you and work harder, and if you're struggling, it's 100% your fault as an individual. That's why someone like Larry Elder wants to eliminate the minimum wage and social spending, because the money just goes to the undeserving. And it's why we should cut the taxes of the rich. Because they deserve that money and will spend it wisely, because they are so much wiser than the rest of us. The poor (ie, anyone with less money than, say Mitt Romney) would just waste it on trivial entertainments. These are actual Republican arguments, backed up by policies they introduce. And yet a guy like Trump - a billionaire who was born rich and went to Wharton - becomes the champion of people who see the Democrats as the party of meritocratic elites? This is a guy who said in the 2016 debates that he'd only stop using Chinese steel in his buildings if it was made illegal, but he's the hero of the working man and it's the Democrat elites who are guilty of offshoring labor? People who are put off by the meritocratic tendencies of the Democratic party run to a party that is the absolute embodiment of all the worst parts of meritocracy. How does that work? They seem so much worse to me, in this respect.

Sandel missed the memo on bullshit jobs imo. He replaces the 'meritocracy' panacea with a workism panacea. Full employment as a collective goal has been no less a failure than insisting everyone get an education or pull themselves up by their bootstraps. I don't see how anyone who has actually worked an average American job (i.e. a 40 hour work week at McDonalds) talks about the "dignity of work" as if work is inherently dignifying or valuable. Maybe his conception of work counts independently pursuing one's own goals/interests as valuable, but I suspect like nearly every other political thinker he thinks 'work' must be tied in with a master/servant relationship in order to count as dignified.

I agree so much with all of this.

You could not claim that there is anything like meritocracy alongside familial asset inheritance. The two concepts are contradictory.

This is a very sharp analysis of the situation. As progressives, we have been cornered into supporting the Democratic party because the alternative is much worse (and getting even worse every day). My son is a college professor and he was looking at it from a different angle; most jobs that 'require' a college degree can be absolutely be done well by somebody with a much shorter training, but the employers will not give them a chance and will only pick college graduates. College cost has also been a huge factor in making young people (and sometimes their parents) poorer by spending the money they don't have to get a diploma.

haha, like grades actually measure superior human qualities, rather than obedience to an authoritarian figure.

I think he is right but other factors are really important, too. Like racism or the inability to accept cultural evolution.

What if there were no hypothetical questions?

Our military runs on meritocracy, greedy nerds can't understand that. Don't teach every "modern" person it, but encourage it , especially in government. Our US military has greedy nerds, but heroes shine and are honored, though not often enough to the degree they deserve. "Man to man is so unjust. Children, you don't know who to trust," Bob Marley. But with people of culture, people who have developed a love for God, meritocracy is automatic, as we say in Hawaii. It's all about love, look at how distant most Americans are from that.

Trade schools 👍

100% I’m a capitalist by heart but I agree with this. I don’t think it’s the system or the government that’s rigged. It’s just the reality of the topic. Humans have different capacities, luck, wealth, talent, genetics, iq, parents, etc is a huge factor for the outcome. It’s not a matter of hard work, it’s a matter of competence. As I like to say, instead of “you can be whatever you want and do whatever you want”, it’s more like you can only become what you are CAPABLE of.

Love Sandel

This immediately back tracks to investing in the people can lead to better results. However, this isn’t such an easy thing to pull off for multiple reasons. The main point that is holding us back are two parties in opposition of the other, rather than working together. We would at least need 10 more on the Democratic side to take complete control to get things moving along faster. Though, this is not likely to be until we can bring those Republican voters up as well. To the point of where they will be likely to shift. This is a long process, and sadly it can’t be solved in a few years. Though if we can set an example of potential people to elect, then maybe we can make some progress eventually.

Read the book recently. A necessary book I think and extremely well argued. It is skewed against the liberals, I think partly because liberals abandoned the working class 30 years ago and Sandel is holding their feet to the fire for it. Liberals should have known better. While Sandel doesn't let the Right off the hook, he's just aiming primarily at the liberals in this book. To compensate for this skewness I would recommend reading the relevant chapters in Piketty's Capital and Ideology (2019) which splits the elite into two fractions--Merchant Right and Brahmin Left, one the economic elite and the other the cultural elite. Plus Piketty's got all the interesting data on voting patterns that show the Democratic party abandoning the working class to focus on achieving better race and gender representation in the economic and cultural meritocratic order, that is, among the meritocratic winners. I think combining these two--Piketty and Sandel--gives us the full deal.

14:30 here's where he goes off the rails because the Republican party is NO BETTER on ANY of these issues that affect the imbalances he speaks of. So it is NOT flawed to vote for Democrats. But we have to make them get better, of course!

Yes, a system based on competence is so awful...

The solution is to change the monetary system. To put transactional value on non material mediums.

Bernie Sanders ❤️

Why America is going to the dogs when there is/are people like this distinguished professor.