Here's a follow up video about worst case runbacks which covers cases like not respawning at the Gwyndolin bonfire: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-j4VnT31TkfI.htmlsi=rjPEd0eEsaZN6jIn
Thry forgot that with rennala and placidusax, but yeah, i much rather have short runbacks, specially for the tough fights, some minibosses still has pretty bad runbacks though, same case with sekiro
@@jajasking9652they didn't forget with rennala because in the lore rennala destroyed every Marika statue in the academy and for placidussax a Marika's statue near his entrance would be impossible because placidussax's arena is placed miles above farum azula so the effect of the Marika statue would disappear and placing one inside his arena would just be strange.
Why not have Radagon statues, it wouldnt impact the lore and show she still cared about him. Plus help with twist of radagon and Marika build up. @@Ex-memegodita
@@abaddon_9941 rennala has a radagon statue behind her, she doesn't have any Marika statue because she hated her and only a sculptor knew about radagon and Marika being the same person (and maybe some other people, but I don't remember well). Maybe you are talking about having a radagon statue that has the same effect as a marika statue, well, in that case I have two options to make all coherent: 1: Marika's statues are created with that power by the guy that builds them, so it wouldn't make sense because nobody knew about radagon and Marika's secret and having the statue of a champion with the same power of a God is the most eretic thing I could think of and we all know what the erdtree do to eretics (it wouldn't be eretic because radagon is a God, but nobody knew so no one wanted to try and create a radagon statue with the same power); 2: Marika when she is Marika has powers that radagon doesn't have and vice versa, because of the miracles created by them like the law of causality and regression, so a radagon statue couldn't have the same power as a Marika's statue.
@@schmietwechdeschiet4340 I have in fact watched the whole video. it seems you're missing the (rather obvious) point: the majority of ds2 bosses are mediocre, and runbacks are usually way more challenging than the bosses. so, to reply in your same tones, I guess dude didnt play ds2...
I never found the bonfire in lost izalith so I ran to the bed of chaos from the bonfire with Solare. it was very fun and took 5 mins to get to the boss, and 5 sec to get pushed into a hole in the ground.
I know this is a late reply, but if you didn't know, after killing the bug things during the boss fight, quit the game, then jump back in. It will spawn you outside the boss room. Then repeat. You won't have to spent ages running back and forth. That boss is horrific.
Maybe no, actually the bosses in DS Trilogy are very very easy comparing to elden ring and most of the hard bosses have a bonfire next to him, fume knight, gael, nameless king etc...
I started doing these side by side comparisons as there were a few cases in DS3 that surprised me. Oceiros has like three different paths that are within seconds of each other, Yhorm has two paths that are the same, etc
@@Domo3000 3 for oceiros? the normal way, the shortcut? Ohh and the secret way in the shortcut! i love that the overall trend leans towards shorter runbacks.
@@childofcascadiaI like the shortcuts tho. Like Elden ring having so many graces kinda ruined the feeling of finding checkpoints and also made the shortcuts useless and there weren’t any shortcuts most of the time. It kinda takes away the good level design (level is different from world design) seen in previous games. I think ds3 has the best runbacks that usually aren’t to long or too short which keeps fun level design with shortcuts while not being too frustrating.
I beat that boss without knowing how to run or jump. I had to take a few months off from playing to center myself for that one. Now I’m like “oh, bed of chaos, you silly goose!”
@@schmietwechdeschiet4340 Yes you can (at least in the Remastered version). Just hold the roll button. It's different from DS3 where you also have to hold L3 down.
@@JellyJmanNo, the problem is that he has a stupid unfair attack, when you position yourself behind him, he hits the ground multiple times with his tail, making it almost impossible to dodge properly.
Actually I just did the other path again, but pretty much flawless by rolling after the drop, not getting hit and having good stamina management and I was half a second faster than a relatively flawless run from Rosaria. So in the best case the runback from the Chapel might be a tiny bit faster, but when I took the average of 3 runs in both for this video Rosaria was faster.
This made me realize why they eventually removed the importance to runbacks. As boss design gained a bigger focus on the last games, and were harder, it would be more tedious to spend 1 minute going after it again compared to previous interactions were the boss fights werent the main dificulty. I still can see an attractive to them, but I think they should be used as a complementation rather than an annoyance.
@@abrahamrangel2326 Idk I would say that just because the last games has a bigger combat focus. They still have an appeal on Level design even if they nerfed the runbacks. That would sound like me saying that the older games to be walking simulators, which obviously aren't. These games are more than "X" simulator Imo. I still can understand though, the people Who aren't convinced with this diferent Focus, specially as a DS1 fan when except Some Big instances, they overall did a Great job balancing this out.
I like the stake of Marika where it's just a soft save. However, I think it should save your state. If you use 7 "estus" to get to the stake and save, then any time you reload there you should start from 8/15. And with that in mind I'd actually kind of like if you started at 10 from the "bonfire" and could get it up to max if you clear certain packs/enemies kind of like how you do in overworld in Elden Ring to disincentivize just rushing the fog gate. The point of all of this being to not trivialize all the regular enemies and traps. But so that you only have to do the run well, ONCE. Getting to the fog gate with the full stack could be a bit of a feat so you kind of have to decide if you want to keep trying the boss at 13 estus or improve your runback to get the full 15.
Redfish That is a very interesting idea but I dont think it fits what the developers had in mind when creating these games. You should try to spread that idea around enough to get it stuck in the minds of any potential indie devs who want to make a game inspired by the Souls difficulty. Would be pretty cool to see that design pop up somewhere.
stake of marika are probably one of the best additions to the game. what sense does it make to make a player play through an area they already played with the literal only goal being to make it go over as quickly as possible. Its just needlessly frustrating. Now is still dont get why tf each boss gotta drop bonfires like its definetly a staple at this point but i think we could do without that bloat, bonfires have to be special not expected.
B-but hardcore! I appreciate that Miyazaki's trying to make an actual game(with in-game tutorials for stuff, with stamina that doesn't drain out of combat, without these dumbass runs across the map), but he's still far from it
The Seath runback made me quit Dark Souls for a while. So long, had to go through the entire Crystal caves again while dodging tough enemies AND you had to remember the invisible bridges. Extremely tedious/dumb.
Funny thing is, the commonly held opinion that boss run backs in DS2 take forever is bron from a few factors: 1- the levels themselves are often much more difficult than the bosses 2- the possibility of being interrupted while crossing the fogwall often forces you to clear the nearby enemies 3- fucking Zallen and Lud, by themselves, are definitely one of the things that contributed the most to convince people of that even more than before, running through Frigid Outskirts is so bad that I genuinely hope FromSoft has an entire wall in their office with the words "FRIGID OUTSKIRTS WAS THE BIGGEST MISTAKE WE'VE EVER MADE" just so they never forget how embarrassed they should be that they shipped DLC for DS2 that was that appallingly bad
I have over 1000 hours in DS2. Are you fucking kidding me with that ruin sentinel runback? I have never seen that path in a hundred playthroughs. What the fuck 😂😂
I found the shortcut in my 1st playthrough, but probably wasted more time than I saved due to how many times I missed and fell into the abyss. He makes it look easy, but I seem to recall a dog around there chasing you in addition to the other enemy. At any rate, I never had any time to stop and line it up.
Elden Ring was my first souls game. I thought the run back in caves and catacombs that didn't have stake of marika was bad. After playing through Ds1-Ds3 and finding the shit shows of bed of chaos that's 99% run back and 1% fight if you ever miss the firebomb timing/ die from his fire/ ivory king that is so tedious to fight I came back over leveled just to kill it in one go.
How long is the Pontiff runback if you don't unlock the shortcut? I missed the shortcut on my playthrough and I remember that runback being tedious considering how deadly the boss was.
@@MaximillionPegasusJ.CrawfordIt depends, souls are about struggle, if you remove the slight punishment so you can spam fights it takes out the "struggle". You can say the fight is the struggle, but that's the game strenght, the cool boss fights and overcoming the challenge, and also they're "mostly" fun and if they're not fun for you then maybe it's not the game for you. I guess its aimed at casual gamers.
@@mariusz7238 What a "subtle" way to call others casuals. I'm very comfortable with Souls Games, thanks. I like to play them, every now and then. I'm aware that long Runbacks are a thing. If you like long and annoying Runbacks, I recommend DS2, especially the DLC. You're probably the kind of guy to ask for more if someone kicks you in the nuts.
@@MaximillionPegasusJ.Crawford What's bad about being casual? Lately I also became casual, no time in life for grinding games. "You're probably the kind of guy to ask for more if someone kicks you in the nuts." Yea sometimes in souls the boss is designed badly, the path is wrong etc. But they were learning, it's not like they are gods that do everything right, there is also time and money involved. But you see I think in life everything that we want to be good at gives us a solid kicks in the nuts, but overcoming these is satisfactory. Also it fits with the series's narration.
@@mariusz7238 You see, all I said was that I like short runbacks and that I implied that I prefer them over longer ones. You went on to call me a casual and now you want to tell me that being a casual is not bad. The word casual lost it's original meaning years ago. People that don't play regularly are still casuals, but if the level of skill is low enough, even people that do play every day can be considered. So what you meant with your comment, was that you think my skill is low and that if a runback is a challenge for me, I should not play such games. Which is incredibly condescending. I don't understand where that came from. I don't understand why you felt the need to do that to me.
Pretty interesting data! I think another important factor is the difficulty of the runback. For example, even though the Mytha runback is quite short, I found it pretty annoying on my first playthrough because it's pretty tricky to slip past the gravewardens in the narrow corridor without being hit. Capra Demon and Ruin Sentinels are other runbacks that I always found pretty tricky. Dogs are really hard to run past to begin with, and getting to the Ruin Sentinels from that direction requires a pretty precise jump, that I basically never manage to make with the dog chasing after me. So, I almost always go from the other bonfire, even though it's slower. But even so, there's a lot of enemies to slip past in a pretty tight space, so it can be pretty difficult to get back. So even though the (DS2) Belfry Gargs runback is longer it never felt as bad to me, because there are relatively few enemies, they're pretty slow, and there's lots of space to maneuver.
Useless info but can actually make a fog wall appear at gravetender and greatwolf if you shoot a wolf with a bow without dropping off the ledge. The music will start and stop if you walk a few feet back from the fog wall its hilarious
I really miss those 1 minute long runbacks. Not the ones in an elevator or empty space but runbacks like Artorias, Taurus or Gwyn where it’s a fair challenge itself to reach the boss with full health. Although that’s only the case because DS1 bosses aren’t that hard and usual go down in max five tries. In shadow of the erdtree I would go insane if it was that way.
Another aspect to consider is the difficulty in getting past all of the enemies along the way. I think that’s why a lot of DS2 run backs feel worse than the times here would suggest. Running through to Smelter Demon, Blue Smelter Demon, and Sir Alonne are difficult to do while avoiding everyone, especially given the lack of fog wall invincibility. Clearly it can be done, as you’ve shown here, but I really struggled with those and ended up despawning most of the enemies in those areas. And then there’s Darklurker. On top of being the only run back in the whole series to require you to fight the enemies (possible exception of Ivory King), he also requires you to pay one effigy per attempt. I didn’t run out of effigies while grinding him, but the thought of having to grind for more just to get one more try is absolutely awful. I’d probably put it as the worst run back in the series, though Lud and Zallen are definitely a close second. With all of that said, I appreciate the data collection and presentation here.
Made me realize longer doesn mean worse, blue smelter demon is technically in the average time range even tho it felt way longer, but its probably the 2nd worst, while gaping dragon, who im sure has never complained about walking back, takes longer
Was disinformation about Dark Souls 2 ever misinformation? Did its detractors ever have good intentions? When and how did it become a part of the zeitgeist to trash it? DS2 is such a unique case in gaming. I can’t name another game whose detractors propagandized their dislike of it. Hell yeah Domo, this is fantastic, detailed work. You’re the champion DS2 has needed for the last decade.
You could write an entire case study on why certain games (and media in general) become far more 'infamous' than the sum of their parts actually justify. An example that comes to mind is Banjo-Kazooie Nuts & Bolts. It made a bad first impression, mocking previous games and changing up its genre in a way that fans didn't ask for. It was universally maligned for around a decade, even generally considered be the reason the franchise died -- long story short, fans are starting to come around and consider it a good game, even misunderstood and underrated. I'm also seeing more and more people saying GTA IV is actually a better game than GTA V; something I've felt for ten years, but honestly never expected. Hindsight is a strange and powerful thing.
It happens every time a major franchise has many entries with equal importance. Fallout Yakuza Resident Evil There’s always one game that gets picked as the “bad” one even if it’s the best.
@larrywalker1371 ds1 can't be improved upon? new londo, the whole ass izalith and demon area, lame as gwyn boss, no connectivity beyond undead burg, teleportation between only specific bonfires, a veeeerrryy limit supplies if endgame upgrade materials. and even the remaster especially on pc was an insult.
The runback for Artorias is mind-numbing, especially since it took me 12-15 times to best him. I really dislike having to ride an elevator each time, especially when you forget to send it back before your next run. Man, it was painful. In all honesty, I haven't suffered the run through the snow field to get to Lud and Zallen. I've seen and heard enough horror stories of that and decided I simply never want to do it myself.
My first soulslike was Bloodborne and I've played most soulslikes since then but I never played DS1 and DS2. I played them this year and I was surprised how DS1 specifically is nothing like everything they made after that. Because for example Sekiro, Bloodborne and DS3 are all boss focused RPGs but DS1 is more sort of a weird platformer that tests your spacial awareness and endurance more than your skill in pattern memorization and reaction. It's weird how genre evolved into what it is right now.
Yeah I agree. People often say that DS2 is different than the other Souls games, but for me it's DS3 that's the odd one out because there you can really see the switch in design philosophy to more flashy bosses and less on the slow and methodical combat, role playing and exploration of the previous games.
Wait is that really an intended shortcut for ruin sentinals at 5:55? I didn't know that wtf lol. Thought it was a troll door meant for you to fall if you weren't careful enough.
i cant believe i was dying to these bosses and actually running back and not quitting out and going to do something else lmao dark souls does something to ya
Another alternative to measuring would be to count until you see the boss health bar on the screen. Not sure if that would have other complications though.
Should not have complications And i think there's really few bosses that has this situation ( btw, why 3 of them are ds3 dlc bosses ? ) Halflight church Gael Gravetender Arguably royal rat vanguard, if you consider the "kill 10 rats for the boss to spawn" as part of the bossfight Royal rat authority nameless king i think? ( But it would only be like 2-3 extra seconds ) Pontyff sulyvahnn ( though you can hit him before his opening attack, but is soo far that few spells, if any reaches him, and bows/crossbows does minuscule damage ) 4 kings Kalameth Nashka ( ok i forgot how the scorpion lady is called ) + All the 2 fights with your criteria that domo adresed on this video soo 11/92 bosses has this situation, being the ds3 dlc bosses and the rat bosses the most relevant, the rest is just a few seconds
Interesting video, I think what makes runbacks so "bad" is also the time you spent in danger of being damaged. 20s in an enemy-infested area is different to 20s in an abandoned hallway
3:31 - The Pinwheel runback here is just for the remastered version, since they added that bonfire with the remaster. In the original game you had a much longer runback. Edit: 18:45 - woops
That's true. It would reduce it by 6 seconds or something, but in this case the risk vs reward is way too high for me. That's the one shortcut jump that I mess up the most because it's hard to tell from above where to jump to, so I forgot to even consider it for this video.
@@Domo3000also DS2 has the infamous baby jumps that would fuck up the Skip, even if your jump spot and angle is perfect You should have consider the anor londo ladder jump skip IMO, is really known among thr comunity and is how most people runs back to OaS, though if you miss it a few times, you have to deal with the silver knight
Runback for DS1 Gwyndolin doesn't seem right. You only timed it from Darkmoon Tomb Bonfire... But, if you die, you spawn in Anor Londo Bonfire. a) If you dispelled Gwynevere's Illusion, such that the Firekeeper is gone, you can Warp back to Darkmoon Tomb. b) If you killed the Firekeeper, you need to run to either Sen's Fortress or Duke's Archives for a Bonfire to warp to Darkmoon Tomb. c) If you don't have the Lordvessel yet, you need to make the LONG runback, down the elevator, up the buttress, across the rafters, rotate the platform up, rotate the platform down, all to get back to Darkmoon Tomb.
He was purposefully using the shortest route for all the runs. There are some runbacks that can make it longer if certain conditions are met but that was besides the point of the video.
So I missed probably the most frustrating runback in DS1 🙈 I must have somehow glitched this by warping around to record these clips, because as you can see in this video I do respawn at that bonfire: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-YUMsUy8Nreg.html
IIRC making Anor Londo dark flags you to spawn at the firekeeper’s bonfire. I suspect the reason attacking Gwendolyn directly doesn’t do this is because they wanted players to not get locked out of the covenant and to give them a chance to get their sin forgiven.
I just tested it again by first making Anor Londo dark, and that's what causes you to get spawned at the first bonfire. So yeah in the worst case it can be bad, but if I start with worst cases I would also have to include things like missing a hidden bonfire That would be interesting for another video.
I think it would be unfair to compare the runbacks to the bosses in Demons Souls with the others. The design philosophy is different there: The challenge is to get from one Archstone to the next and this challenge ends with a boss fight. The boss fight is usually quite easy on its own, but it becomes a challenge with the whole level.
Great video 👍 For the dragonslayer armour runback, although i havent measured, ive always taken the lift shortcut. it feels the intended route, and way quicker. Althought that might just be becuse you dont need to actually run, i can be on my phone as the lift goes up
@@Domo3000 I just watched the video. for me i'll always choose the lift shortcuts in lothric, as you dont need to avoid enemies. interesting to see its actually longer though, thanks!
I killer Sir Alonne first try only because I didnt want to do the run back. The hate for it where so strong that it really kept me alive during the fight. Blue smelter demon on the other hand.... I think my sanity wasnt challenged this hard in any other video game.
You should have stopped the timer when the boss health bar appeared to make it more realistic and standardized between fights. Either way I enjoyed the vid and it confirmed to me my pain when dying to Artorias repeatedly.
So with the ivory king, the boss fight starts as soon as you land, not when the actual Ivory King spawns. This is to keep it consistent with Royal Rat Vanguard, where you ended the timer the moment you entered the fog wall, NOT when you killed enough rats for the mohawk rat to drop in.
I think the worst boss to ever run back in a Souls game is Shadow of Yharnam. There are worst bosses out there, and I know someone else would dispute me against this. But what makes the shadows of Yharnam so bad is just how there’s so much bad shit stacked onto it. One of them is how agonizingly fucking long the run back is, and if you’re not careful, the enemies around the area can fuck your shit too. Horrible, horrible boss.
