"i wonder how my faction is doing?" I said, ignoring the fact that I only play against a single person and their army right now, and have never been to tourney.
but it is important to know how your faction is doing competitive wise, because any points change or rules change would stem from their performance. and I think it's important to know why your faction gets certain buffs or nerfs or changes.
I just want to say I have absolutely loved this channel since I started my Warhammer 40K journey last summer. I love that you just give us basic information and don't editorialize too much, especially in a way that sensationalizes nerfs/buffs. I also love that you break up the videos with headers so we can go exactly to the information we want. I usually stick around for the rest or let it play in the background while I work after I hear what I'm interested in. It almost makes other videos hard to watch. I tried to watch a video on Age of Sigmar armies yesterday and it was just the opposite. In fact, I'm pretty sure they made it as hard as possible to skip around and try to figure out what they were talking about. It made me appreciate your work even more.
Its why he is one of the very very few RU-vidrs I give a monthly sub to. His work deserves it to be financially rewarded by those who sub and watch his videos. I'm not rolling in the money, but the few dollars I pay monthly to him I feel is right.
@@ChunkypumpkinheadI wanted to get into 40K here just to paint cool shit and play with friends, so that's what I'm doing with Tau and maybe Imperial Knights. Big Robots are Cool.
@@mosselliadelt mainly because their units can't be too god because of how strong it would be to have strong divergent chapters with strong core marines units. The big playerbase does not really help either, that's for sure.
@@mosselliadelt T-sons have almost the same amount of players in a competative setting and they are doing great. Necrons have alot more players and are doing far better. Tyranids have more players, Tau have more players, Astra have more players and all are doing better. Nope, player population is not the explanation that Codex SM are struggling.
@@EruCoolGuy Might aswell delete it then. The company should always try to have every faction/army around 50% winrate. That should be the strive. Otherwise whats the point.
@@richardmcdaniel3444 the codex seems pretty decent, Tabletop Tactics went through it the other day & they've been levelled up in various areas (DC Detachment looks pretty good)
@@richardmcdaniel3444 you should actually read the codex first. It's insane. One of the best players in the UK is raving about how good it looks, so you might want to actually play them before giving in to internet freakouts:)
@@GekleloPlays I play Slaanesh mostly and I have found them to be a hard Blood Angel counter. My main problems as Slaanesh are getting in to melee before getting wiped, and not being matched up against the right stats. Most Slaanesh stuff is geared for killing marines, and Blood Angels want to get in to combat as bad as we do. I know no one asked, but there you have it. My opinion.
Orks weren't just double nerfed, they got hit from so many different directions it's ridiculous 1. Green Tide got hit massively with pts and overall nerfs, including no re-rolls of 1s on saves, which made the detach able to include at least one good unit that isn't 20 Boyz. 2. Meganobz double nerfed, which also nerfed most of the detachments, as they weren't just used in Bullies & WH, but also as move-disembark-charge unit in Kult of Speed, -1 hit unit in Dread Mob and Raucous Warcaller unit in Green Tide. 3. PN missions are much worse for orks, as they can't do actions after advancing or in combat anymore. Kult of Speed got from a weak-ish detachment to horrible one. 4. Core starts got nerfed heavily with no fall back/advance and granade or tank shock being next to useless now. 5. Codex appears nice in a way that it gives something for almost every unit in the game, but it's also unreasonably restrictive when it comes to keywords. Most detachment rules are super-locked to a handful of units, despite the fact that similar abilities are available to much better units in other armies without restrictions. Only Nobz/megas using gems in Bullies or stuff being locked to mounted or infantry in da big hunt, a detachment which already has like 3 units available in total (snaggas, hogs and rigs, all with leaders, though only beastbosses see play) is ridiculous. 6. Smaller, but very painful change - the warboss ability not working in transport for some godforsaken reason, which forces orks to have their best all-rounder infantry on the table or in reserves when the waaagh hits. 7. Grots generate CP in movement, which is nice if I move first in t1, but also is a nerf, because they can now fail if they're BSed. All that while butchering of hogs (dunno why Auspex keeps using them as an example of a strong unit when they barely do anything rn), Mozrog/Squigboss, forge world and some characters like Badrukk made the only playable detachment (War Horde), strictly worse than in index. (We got better Ghaz and sticky Boyz, which is huge, but that clearly didn't balance things out)
KoS also suffers from supporting units paying for the busted abuses of 9th in the koptas and buggies and being an oddly shooty detachment with restrictive support. Imagine intentionally forbidding Dakkastorm and Blitza Fire stacking when we lack multi-damage and AP profiles already. Volume is also lacking with a hit rate of 5+ and Ork vehicles could use melee buffs if they can't have better shooting. And give Trukks and wagons the SPEED FREEKS keyword, you cowards. Not about to pretend that the old Kult of Speed box didn't have those two in there.
@@marauder340 yeah, keyword locking is imo the biggest issue with orks. If the codex and sheets were better balanced internally, with each detachment supporting multiple options, orks would take the nerfs much better. You can't have your winrate drop by more than 10% after dataslate and call the codex "good"
lol i know right?, Squighog Boyz are not a "strong unit", they got considerably worse compared to index since they lost the +1 to hit from the Smasha Squig, sure, they gained a body, but that its hardly enough to compensate at the ridiculous high price point they are at right now. And Beastboss and Mozrog just feel too expensive too, not only that but the entire unit + leader is sooooo difficult to move around (which is something GW NEVER takes into consideration when pointing units)
@@kirbyball97 Don't think it's being disputed, but more an issue of how heavy-handed GW was with it given that Pariah Nexus was also incoming shortly after and they were surely aware of it.
Tbf this is less a result of guard rules being any better and more that the average guard players are psychopaths are so used to having bad rules they win regardless.
Calling out space marine scouts nerfs next update. Clearly 41% win rate is still too high for us codex space marine players, we need to be taught a lesson on why a divergent chapter is better and to buy them new BA army box set and combat patrol with those Stormcasts /w jump packs.
Dark Angels player here, i find it also annoying. Same armies keep getting low and nerfed. The strive should be every army around 50%. Otherwise there is no point.
@@jerryedwardfrankenI’m jealous of dark angels because they’re detachment has the hail of vengeance stratagem witch is word for word the exact same as the hail of vengeance stratagem in Anvil siege force, yet ours is 2cp. wtf is that?
Proper Divergent Chapters should be completely standalone. CSM currently get this treatment, Loyalist should as well. This would allow more tailored balance changes so normal marines aren't left in the dust, and allow for divergents to be more unique, like they used to be.
Mmm, those are entirely full codexes. Most people say the world eaters codex is too small. Take blood angels, they literally have no infantry outside death company, death company with jet packs, sanguinary guard and than 12 characters. Wtf are they gonna do. Run the funny 1940 pt all captains list. It's the detachments they shouldn't have access too. No gladius, ironstorm, etc. Just the ones in their book. Datasheets? That would be WILD
@@rellikskuppin7417tsons with only terminators/exalted/Magnus/rubric/Ahriman and 3 aos kits everything else being generic csm, BA have more kits than tsons and world eaters before pulling from sm. Also note ba, da, templar's and wolves should pull from normal space Marines but have their own points similar to how tsons have a forgefiend that is pointed for them (even if it doesn't do anything with the detachment)
@crono252 I agree that they should have separate points. I was saying on the BA codex release video in the comments that the BA codex is not a codex but a supplement. Realistically, it's a supplement. They just don't want to do the work while raking in the money. Remember 8th edition when everyone took Ahriman in their CSM list? I do agree with you. I was just saying that they should have access to those datasheets. Not that they shouldn't be pointed differently. 🤘
I agree I think if divergent chapters just used their own points for normal sm stuff it would be easier to balance you know like what csm and the cult marine factions have been doing all editing
@@GoalOrientedLifting notably it's because of their poor design choice of divergent chapters stealing main chapter points, give all the divergent chapters their own points and the problem would be solved... Ba at 53% winrate SW and DA close behind
@@crono252 It's exactly this, and it's fucking insane that they haven't done it given how CSM has this exact system going for them. It's not rocket science, people. GW really must have a really braindead B Team on Loyalist Marines, and they're not even aware of what the A Team is doing.
@@GoalOrientedLifting since cost of armies is so high and you get all sorts of skill levels entering tournaments, being popular might decrease their win rate as you can’t exactly trade your salamander army for even another codex without a repaint or finding another player willing to loan/trade
The biggest weakness of the Orks outside of the nerfs is that Pariah Nexus overemphasises missions that require surviving until the end of your opponents next turn compared to Leviathan. This isn't what orks are good at. Doing missions same turn, likely being sacrificed straight after? That's our jam. But somehow sitting out of combat at the start of the opponents turn doing a mission (which is like pinning a giant "shoot and assault me" flag to the unit), and expecting to succeed? Nope. This also has a knock on effect where if you don't do a mission, at the start of your next turn you are still holding it (because you haven't completed it, nor discarded it). This means you did none of the following: binned it on your turn for 1CP; collected Victory Points from it; discarded it after completion for a new mission. This means come your next turn you've lost a unit, can't grab a new mission card to replace the one you just failed, and if you decide you can't do it, have to spend a CP to get rid.
Laughing at switching off mission actions for units with Assault or virtual equivalents to it. Imagine having Kult of Speed and your units that can move and shoot can't do missions, none of them battleline, and the Warboss' own buff won't work if he's in a transport when you call the WAAAAAGH which shoots one of the enhancements in the foot (Fasta Than Yooz)
Vanilla Space Marines will remain in trouble until they separate out points values (as they just showed with Imperial Agents) or until they give some major bonus only vanilla marines can get (like restoring Old Oath to vanilla marines only, or letting Vanilla only choose two oath of moment targets or something).
Iron warrior in hospital: “damn sons of Dorn! I’m sure they’re behind this despicable detachment!” ‘Glances over at the bed next to him and sees an IF on life support’
GW has already shown a willingness to split points costs between detachments/factions with the Imperial Agents codex, I wonder if that's what their fix for standard Space Marines will be 🤔
That would be nice but I'm not holding my breath. I expect Codex Marines to get more nerfs to their best units "because they're being spammed"--ignore that the spammed units are the only semi playable ones >.>
I used to pretty much use Fields of Fire and Reinforcements as the only 2 strats with guard, and now its still Fields of Fire but i’ve had to look at the generic strats as well
The issue with the DA detachments is that they're far too limited in the units their abilities apply to. If the Inner Circle detachment applied buffs to all Deathwing units rather than just Deathwing infantry, it would be significantly better. It's also insane that the Lion doesn't have the Deathwing and Ravenwing keywords.
I guess as long as Eldar are under 49% we aren't getting quadruple nerfed with every update for now. Enjoy your superior fate dice while you can, Sisters players.
I have to say, even though DA are below average for win rates, the fact I can play a true DA list with the unique units means I'm satisfied. It's good enough. I won't complain if they buff some of the lackluster stuff, but at least I can run lists which aren't green Ultramarines or green Iron Hands.
I think Orks would be back in target zone if they called Waaugh in command phase, if Flash Gitz had Nobz keyward or could be led by Big Mek, if Green Tide nerfs were rolled back (as Pariah Nexos alone would've brought it in line), and with a couple points tweaks (meganobz down to 35 ppm, Deff Dread to 100, Stompa to 650, Squigbuggy down to 75, Painboss down to 50, squigjogs need a drop too)
What's crazy is that when an army drops from top to bottom, people here like to pretend that it only dropped because all of those players magically forgot how to play one night... all at the same time.
It would be interesting (and maybe more helpful) to see win rates for armies against other specific armies. A faction might win 50% of their games total but lose 90% against a certain faction. The general stats are nice but they don't really show possible hard counters.
Yeah you can’t convince me that Genestealer cults are doing better than space marines right now. Not after the 27% winrate drop tournaments for the last 3 weeks and how you didn’t rank them in the competitive play tier list that came out 2 weeks before that, because there was no logistics to rank them on available.
You'd also want to consider the difference between new player and 40k veterans. Lot's of "fluff" players or "new to hobby" players tend to bring their greatly painted marines to a tournament and then.. loose.
SM is always gonna have a lower win rate than balance actually indicates due to that reason. As one of (probably the) largest played factions a 50% win rate is actually too high for space marines. It’s just hard because outside a few really strong data sheets every update, space marines really have felt not great all of 10th.
You say that like it's a fact, but you are objectively wrong. There are enough marine players and enough events that the "new player" phenomenon would not effect the win rate in any meaningful way. Codex Space Marines is the worst faction because GW nerfed it into the ground. If you think it's player skill holding it back, you take it to a GT and win.
@@Paranormal-Stupidity It's just an assumption. I'm rather saying that the effect of new players taking the faction and losing in tourneys could be amplifying/ impacting the stats. I also assume, very good players could indeed improve their win-rate, but they 1. don't touch them right now because there are better options 2. they won't not get any tournament wins with them So that'd be just a few extra % One would need to check the actual data if that is true. -- I'd love to see some buffs for marines, especially for the named chapters. Or some relics/traits to create an army with custom bonues (similar to 9th)
@@Grastiars1yeah but doesn't auspex say that codex SM are 10th most played in these stats? Regardless if they're the most played faction elsewhere, they're the 10th most here and are still the lowest winrate
I play thousand sons, and the problem with them and using win rate and big tournament wins is there winning list is sooooooooooo skewed. Magnus, Ahriman, Rubric flamers lead by sorcerer characters with a sprinkle of support, mostly for additional AT to Magnus or for secondaries. If you try to play Thousand Sons any other way, they are really tough to use. Magnus is probably the best individual model in the game. I am sure a points nerf is coming for TS, but I hope it focuses on Magnus, who could go up 40 points and still be useable. Also Rubrics really need a split of data sheets between flamers and bolters ala crisis suits. The flamers are just sooooooooo much better. They will probably get another points hit but the bolter ones are unplayable at the current price. Hopefully they shake that out in the codex.
I think Den of Fools had Drukhari at 47% win rate for the last week, so I suspect GW's tweaks to the movement rules might just start to catch up a bit. I presume most of the tournaments that the stats are based on had locked in the rules from a certain date.
@@burnbobquist8999 I think he mentioned a ehile ago that he didn't play for a bit and the Drukhari win-rate dropped by like 9% or something like that, so yea, the best players absolutely have a big impact for the more uncommon armies. :-)
I play CSM and Eldar. Ynarri is the way to build a competive list, opening the door for all flavors of Space Elves. As a guy who played Craftworld in 9th, I am definitely behind the meta. And I stubbornly play Dread Talons as my CSM detachment. The main issue is DTs have a lot of mobility but 2+, 4++ and T10+ are problems for my build. (I have two Vindies, but my dice don't agree with them)
Great write up, appreciate the insight - Where could I go to find the lists used by the event winners? Looking for guidance for Thousand Suns in particular. Thank you!
Will be interesting to see if anyone plays straight Imperial Agents during any of the upcoming tournaments or if we are only going to be seeing players make use of them for their ally abilities. Maybe they can get a few Grey Knights or Sisters to help out their brothers in the vanilla Space Marine chapters. Also, I see why GSC battle force boxes still seem to be in plentiful supply.
I think it would be interesting to track how win rates track over an edition. So at the end of 10th we could have a league table that changes over time.
You know what, i´ve realised I don´t really care about tournament statistics beyond looking at tournament lists for inspiration on what fun new things to try out. I have played Chaos Daemons before and while much stronger than Chaos Space Marines(apparently), its just so much more one note and less fun to play for me.
death guard needs either an additional defensive buff or give pbc the ability to lay down a contagion marker once per game.. put down something on the board with a 3in contagion aura to try and give them something to make up for their loss of accuracy
playing GSC is rough at the moment; nerfs to most anti tank and the loss of brood brother in all but one detachments makes it really hard to take out vehicles and monster. played against a friend at 1k points he just put a vindicator and Landraider down; I got the vindicator but no chance in hell to take down the Landraider afterwards
Cant speak for Tyranids, but from what I,ve seen for frecuently playing CSM, aside from the nerfs they received, they dont have any rock unit, nor any wierd game changing tricks like teleporting, consolidating 6" to trap many units, etc
Against good opponent csm loose in war of attrition , failed dark pact slowly drain our wunds making it easier for opponent to kill us ,(and we can't not use them because our dmg is mediocre , )add to this not great durability and unreliable for points anti tank
we're only looking at a 15% ratio of a gap here. so literally the biggest thing is finding an army you want to play because of rule of cool and play it. don't forget that boys. only like 1% of the players that play 40k or AoS ''or any tabletop game for that matter'' wind up really needing this type of information. dont let a statistic tell you that your army now sucks or whatever. just play what you think is coolest and enjoy the hobby. WAAAGH!~!~!🦖🦖🦖🦖🦖
I will say when you list stuff that is decent in gsc you name 5 out of the 10 non character units available. So while external balance is bad, internal balance is not terrible. I am happy metamorphs are good but I wish my poor aberrants were better. Fnp nerf was fair and I understand why the damage was nerfed but that one stings a lot more.
To be fair, Sisters just got their codex this slate, we'll have to see if they mirder them next month like they did Orks or if they are more reasonabke like with Necrons
You missed the fact that Orks ALWAYS win (that's simply because GREEN IZ DA BEST N ARDEST!!! WAAAAGH!!!!), so they're actually sitting at 101% win-rate in all reality. :D
Well, aside from the units in red that is a tightly tuned meta. Plus or minus 3% from 50% for average win rates is hard to pull off, usually any game has something that pulls 6 or 7% ahead at any given time.
Funny, for beginners GW’s flagship boys are space marines. You start out happy happy but at your first tournament or LGS meeting you get sad quickly😂 as a new player I can confirm this.
I sure do love the detachment system. Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go over there and play a game with my weirdly-coloured Ultramarines and nod my head when someone tells me that 10th edition is better than 9th because there’s less rules bloat, and if a divergent chapter player walks by, I’m going to lick their boots like GW wants me to.
That is just regarded lol they weren’t even egregiously overpowered before they got nerfed to hell. It’s literally one detachment that led to that too so at this point just get rid of renegade raiders
@@davidcox6454 renegade raiders is a fun ass detatchment, idrgaf what they do as long as they keep precision on points and assault + AP-1 they just need to cull the little tricks
@@jacket2848 red zone isnt balanced. he means more compensation to bring them into the grey, even if it is just buffing other detachments that bit more
i doubt theyll buff them too much, probably points decreases. on that note, yes, i hope the low win rate means we get *just the right ammount of buffs* to not get them immediately revoked
Thank you The Tyranids are the most played faction in tournaments but with only 2 victories it's rather disappointing, right ? Even if it's much better, it still needs some efforts to balance the points, some units are expensive to work on the table, compared to others factions.
Maybe I mean csm got nerfed and they were within the acceptable range. Are there any broken ass interactions that are annoying. If so then you might get nerfed
give us back our old oaths! make it so that only codex compliant detachments can get old oath! make it so that the first company can initiate 2 oath targets! make it so that guilliman can do the same! and make it so that divergent chapters can't use their special units within codex compliant detachments! Make scouts 55 pts again! Make reivers 65 Pts!
Boy who’d have thought if you make the units in an already squishy and skill based army weaker people wouldn’t use them? My little osha violators are in shambles
If an army has a good general performance and a fair amount of players but few/no tournament wins the odds are that they have some kind of bad match up that just destroys them.
I love Warhammer lore. I don’t own a single piece of equipment, I’m brazilian and the prices of the game are WAY out of my budget to import. I have no ideia how the game functions and the rules are just beyond my understanding. Am I watching the video? HELL YEAH
It has more to do with terrain layouts at tournaments. They are so difficult to fight because you can't see them to shoot them, and you get charged every time you go near a ruin when you are trying to get an angle. I've come up against them a few times, and I haven't been able to counter them. Also, Angron is just nasty.
At this point not sure if I want the Aeldari codex, winrate is close to 50% but some rules bothers me hard. Why I can't attach Autarchs to aspect warriors? Why Wraithlords only hit on 4+? Make it 3+ and increase points if needed. I know I can attach a Spiritseer to it but they are too expensive for that. On Wraithguards/blades Spiritseers makes sense but not on Wraithlords.
Wraith structures are technically half blind in their lore, and this is the main reason why spiritseers always with them. BS stat of Wraith structures totally makes sense for me.
Top end isn't too bad, highest is 56%, just barely out of the +/-5% range. Bottom three are in need of some love, although not sure how to boost genetic SM without also boosting at least some named chapters as well.
Winrate can be a bit deceptive in terms of balance. Anything within 10% of a 50-50 is solid in my book, and 56% at the top end is quite frankly excellent, but if there is no unit balance it can still suck in terms of overall game balance. I quit engaging with the competitive scene a good while ago so I don't know what it is like right now. If there are a bunch of different lists for each faction then all is well, but if it's just one list or one unit spammed over and over for each faction, then the state of the game is not so great.
I'm genuinely pissed off about the Deathwatch. They didn't need to be crushed, they just needed to cut the cost of the units. 100/5 for vets was just about fair, but all other Kill Teams and Termies were overcosted to hell and back. My Vigil shall not end.
They have to jump blood angles points alot or this will get ugly. The guard is filthy, and i cant think of any single unit in orks or gsc that is as strong as Mephistins data sheet.
If the power balance is going towards playing divergent chapters then all the better in my opinion. Surely for all the casual players that is what we want isn’t it? The whole colours don’t matter anymore introduction to 10th was against how I certainly feel about my armies and for chapters to have flavour again is great for the non tournament players.
I have 0 desire to play tournament level, even amateur tournament, I just play for fun, and I just got into the table top version. I am sticking with my Dark Angels, its how I was introduced to the WH40K universe (Space Hulk Deathwing Enhanced), I like their history, codex, and the fact that they really don't care too much about following the codex outside of some core items. They are very secretive and have many successor chapters that the rest of the Imperium has likely never heard of but have fought next to. Sure Lion El Jonson might be an "asshole" but he seems like my kind of asshole so I get along with his ideals.
still mad that GK grandmasters are still not as good as a regular space marine captain at being a leader of an army, having the same buff, but 1/game instead of 1/turn.
I play basic space marines and it just seems that every edition we're left in the dirt behind every other codex. We should be brought up to the level of the codex divergent chapters so we actually get somewhere for once.
Me playing Orks: GW: Orks are good. Me: Hey friends want to play some 40k this weekend? 😈 GW: Orks suck. Me: Sorry friends, working on my pile of shame. Should be caught up soon. 😅
Sisters got their new book and they were played a lot more. So the results are likely solid. Idk if they need a nerf with a 54 % win rate, but if GW wants to do something, id expect a nerf for the Bringers of Flame detachment.
The weakest factions are the ones I end up liking. And it's always the most fun detachments for me that turn out to be the worst in their codex (Anvil and Kult of Speed) lolsob
As some one that plays no tank raven gaurd (2 dreads) 10th is ruff rn. My other army is orks, in which to get to 2k i need to run 80 boyz, or a stompa.
As a Blood Angels player on and off for about 15 years, the new rules for them is a bit of a up and down. Although, I recently got some Drukhari, haven't played them yet but I have hope.
Want to fix the problems with Space Marines? Add +1 to their base toughness, and make bolters Strength 5. Majority of the problems I have come from people being able to kill Marines too easily, and needing to roll 4s or 5s consistently for T5 enemies.
I've said this for years. SM (and CSM) need to be S5/T5 base and bolt weapons need to be S5 base and go up from there. You can easily make Terminators T6, Gravis T7 and add +1 T to all Death Guard models and it fixes a lot of issues. GW has to drop it's obsession with "SM = 4's."
