@@stevenbelue5496 don’t kid yourself. We know better than to run outdated tech. Anyone can make a Chevy run! I don’t like refreshing my engine every year so I just build a good Ford and kick Chevy asses for years with nothing but a little maintenance. Run what you want but you may have underestimated your opposition.
@@Axeman428 your not making real power if your not refreshing it yearly and dont tell me that its due to fords design. Its not the brand or design, you simply reach the limits of the mechanical parts. If your not needing to refreshen it your not making enough power to hurt it.
Except GMs 18 deg heads they made back then...or rthe BBC head in 65...waaay before the C head came out. THey are really overrated but ford guys ooh and ahh they ports BEEEG!
Eric you are correct, they copied a Pontiac Iron duke and Oldsmobile head. The next gen. NASCAR head was the RO7 and RO X head that is a copy of the Cleveland head, as is the Toyota head also.
the Fords were allowed because they were closely based on actual production heads that were homogolated according to Nascar rules and sold on production vehicles to the public, so it was fair even though GM was at a dis -advantage. Ford Cleveland heads are far superior to any stock production small block head by GM or Mopar. those SB2 heads were never offered on a production vehicle so im not sure who's palms got greased at NASCAR to allow that head to be legal.
NASCAR has ALWAYS favored chevies and has to make special rules to allow them to compete. Chevy NEVER made a head like this for a stock production car so it IS illegal Ford ALWAYS gets banned for making special engines or special parts that only exist on race engines. If it were not for NASCAR kissing chevies ass , chevy couldn’t win shit.
Smokey and the GM girus were doing the canted rotated heads in the early 60s , the mk2 that was dqed for nascar, the ford guys will jump up and down and cuss about it, but its true. I think the canted rotated chamber was Smokey's baby
Yes David, and SMOKEY didn’t get much help from GM..!!! We always hear about things like ‘’ford vs Ferrari’’ …i don’t ever think ive heard Smokey vs FORD or SMOKEY vs DODGE .. But that’s almost exactly how it was !! Penske left Chevrolet because almost zero help…!
@@rickyfulks889 a lot of people dont know that smokey built 2 69 z28s and built rotated canted valve heads, that were called hemi heads. Nonetheless they were said to make a lot of power.
In '54 when Chevy designed the 265 small block . They did the pairs of intake ports together for one reason . It makes for a smaller intake manifold , with obviously less iron . The paired up exhaust was just collateral damage .
Ford guys resenting GM may come from the fact that the Cleveland was penalised or even outlawed in so many classes of racing, making the Ford guys eternally salty about the politics of racing bodies and the obvious bias against their brand. I'm a Ford guy and I recognise the shortcomings of the Cleveland, and 429/460, as well as the fact that Ford took a lot of ideas from the BBC (released 4 years earlier) for their design. The biggest shortcoming in my opinion is the 4 head bolts per cylinder design, placing one of the bolt bosses right where the port should ideally go (ie: sending the flow to the middle of the cylinder). Instead, the port curves the other way, having to then make another turn at the valve to get into the cylinder. I believe that this is where the shrouding issue comes about. BBCs dont have this bolt issue (having a different head bolt layout), but they're shackled with another design flaw in that they insisted on having siamesed ports on a head with equal spaced valve layout (like Fords), so looking at one head, you have 2 ports that curve the right way, and 2 the wrong way. The Cleveland I believe has all 4 going the wrong way. (Due to said port routing ussues). In the end, everyone "copies" everyone at some stage. The LS does indeed look quite Ford-like. Ford pretty much reverse-engineered the Buick 3800 V6 in the 80s. One could argue that the BBC was heavily inspired by the Chrylser Poly head from the 50s.
I noticed that on the imports. In each generation they are COPYING. Port and valve sizes and positioning, etc.... Then us Americans copy 4v import situations on similar bore sizes.!
@@wysetech2000 I think the prostock guys got it right by chopping the ex side of the head and raising the port . Then filling the floor of the in port. Then gm made the same mistake with the ls rec port heads. I think fuel inj. Is somewhat forgiving not relying on signal for fuel supply.
@bennyfactr6122 In Nascar, everyone copied everyone else. Cheating was rampant in the 70s to the 90s. Some of the things that went on were just crazy, especially on restricted engines. Ford had a slight advantage and then GM had the advantage. In the end they both made 850 to 900 HP. Now the rules have changed and are both being strangled to death at 550 to 650 Hp, and are thoroughly inspected after every race.
If you want to know the Ford , Yates , Roush heads story . Dragboss garage has an interview with the guy that all the major Ford guys went to for headwork . Can't think of his name but the vid was 3 to 4 months back .
The Ford C3 "Yates" head of the day was not a canted valve head. Larry Wallace/Yates took the cant out of thevalves for better mid lift flow, along with a smaller chamber to allow for higher compression without a domed piston.
Those big exhaust ports are nice for a Vortech, Procharger, aka blower. I have a set of stamped numbers matching Hendrick sb2.2 heads, a matching Hendrick intake, Jesel 1.7 rockers, and they're dated 03-06. I bought the whole set up here in NC for $2500.00 about 5 years ago. I have used them. They're just sitting on the self. I thought about running on this brodix block with a V30-128 to see how they do.
I think GM Siamesed exhaust ports to maintain the stock small block head bolt pattern. That might be how GM back door the SB2 into NASCAR calling a stock block. I was working a regional SCCA race at Sears Point in the mid 80's and two SCCA Trans Am style cars where getting a lot of attention from GM factory people. I knew they were GM factory people cuzz 2 of them talk to me about the car I was working on and gave me a "We Build Excitement" T-shirt, I still have the shirt. They were covering the motor with a blanket, like they were operating on a kidney when the hood was off. They also had enough people around the motor area when the hood was off, it looked like in a operating room. Then one of cars tore the kevlar off the front end and the car ended up in impound lot. Before they got motor covered enough people got a glance at the motor, some said it was big block and the people more in the know said it's the new small block chevy 2 and that people who thought it was BB didn't get good enough look.
Its crazy how the different angles of the valves effect flow, thats the advantage the LS has on SBC, other than that i believe both engine are very close in power to each other,it would be cool if profiler ever sent you some heads to actually really compare a LS motor to a SBC motor with the same valve angle
Ford was allowed to run the canted valve head because they designed and used themon factory small block cleveland's where the chevy never had a small block canted valve head from the factory. The 4 BBL Ford 351 cleveland produced more HP per cubic inch than ANY other American factory small block all else being the same.
FYI the SB2.2 has 11* valve angle with 4* cant.... Ford did away with the cant in the intake valves after 1988 with the 6049-C3 heads which were standardized at 7.5* valve angle with 0* cant... however Ford brought cant back in their design with the D3 head... and did away with it again in the SC1. Prior to the C3, the Ford SVO A3, B3 and C302 NASCAR legal casting used Cleveland valve train architecture with revised runner locations.
I`ve got a set of those and a set C3`s I bought them in ralieh N.C.My flow Numbers are with in +or-5 of yours, The C3`s run - 15 to 18 below the SB2.2`s in the low to mid lift but catch up by 700 lift. The guys I got them from run top sportsman in drar racing. I was going to build a couple motors for open dirt late models but Biden got elected and my stockmarket income dried up.Plus these Florida tracks went to stinkin crate motors
They reason Chevy kept the old exhaust port layout is because nascar said they wanted the headers to look like small block Chevy headers lol. If I’m not mistaken the first set they presented to them were symmetrical. As I’m typing this I may have learned that from this channel . Not sure .
Eric, I'm looking for an SB 2 engine to buy. Please do a more detailed video that would help me determine what ports and parts I should use in the heads. Thank you! Tom
I love all fast engines and all fast cars. I say this to say; Ford guys are strange af. Always saying other manufacturers copied Ford and always bashing other brands randomly for no reason. Don’t come at me because I like them all 👍
Ford typically doesn't put two exhaust valves next to each other like a SBC. I prefer SBF 351w based motors over SBC stuff. The LS design IS very similar to a sbf.
The strange thing is there are a lot of Companies at one time or another were helped by Henry Ford, they were sold, design's like overhead cam's and other design's so that the Companies wouldn't go broke, apparently even Porch was bailed out at one time 😂 with that said how can a Ford person bag on other brands 😂 thanks for sharing, all the best to you all
@@jasonstormoen Most of it had to do with Ford being forced to run 1" taller ground clearance, and taller rear spoilers, with steeper angles than the Chevies. Case in point Mark Martin, NASCAR kept the Tarus so out of whack on the track Mark spent 7 seasons with a push in the corner. No forward bite. You take gordon out there pulling his fenders out and less spoiler and lower to the ground. I'd say he had it made. Kinda like Dale Sr. spending half his career in the NASCAR hauler blowing something under the desk, while crying about the Cleveland having bigger valves than the Chevy, but Chevy was running the 4.125" 400 SBC most of the time, compared to the 4" bore Ford. "Oh the 351C is a Big Block" Cried Dale. All the while the Elliott brothers were working on the dyno their dad bought them..... Perhaps why Darrell Waltrip handed Dale Sr 60 losses in 5 years in the 80's. Or should I say 60 wins for DW. Sr was always worried about the wrong thing.... All in all Dale put the #3 in the wall.
The fastest n/a sbc door car I've ever seen at the drag strip had 2.2s on it . I don't know the particulars about the motor but it was running 7.30s on a track that wasn't all that great .
I've only gotten interested in porting in the last year so I've still got a lot to see but 304 @ .400" is nuts! I would expect nothing less from NASCAR just never seen it.
Friend who used to flow my heads on port projects designs his own ports for the super truck series way back. You should see those before they got hands on them. PRetty intimidating.
@@gordocarbo I bet. I'm working on a design for old stock Mopar B Block heads. Trying to make a sleeper set but it's going to require adding filler metal to the top of the ports. There isn't enough meat up top to raise the port to where it seems to want to flow. It's more of me just playing around than me trying to meet any certain numbers. I do know, for me at least, it's gotta look stock.
dont care for the head bolt set up im willing to bet this would make nice power with a 2:18 1:81 . reminds me of the first nhra mini truck set up my uncle ran .
What few people know is GM really didn't design the Sb2 heads, and Ford didn't design the C3 or the D3. One of the best kept secrets in the NASCAR ,World was Don Losito. He was working on the Sb2, the D3 ford, and even Dodge heads, when they were involved. Only about 3 or 4 people really understand what makes a good head, and how to get NASCAR approval. That is why alot of this stuff looks somewhat the same, because the same fertile minds, designed all of it. So it really is pointless to argue, who had a better design because the same people had the knowledge and did the work. Just matters who was paying the bills $$$$$ !
@@rickyfulks889 I should give credit, too Larry Wallace, who did most of the development of the C3 head for Robert Yates. And anything that was Ford related, was handled by Mr. Mose Nowland, longtime Ford engineer, who handled casting the heads. Larry Wallace worked for Penske in later years so, he was involved in the Dodge program, as well. Nobody in Nascar wanted their competitors, to know "Where are they getting those heads" ?? Because this small group was doing work for nearly everyone, they had to be quiet, and descrete. They are all in 70s now, and still, rarely talk about their work.
Nascare SB2 304.4cfm@.400", 348.9@.500 and 375.4@.600", all bananas numbers. The 235.1@.300" is achieved on some other "good" 2 valve heads on small blocks it's good, but not huge.
Every time i hear a ford guy spewing Chevy just copied ford all I really hear is someone coping with the fact that they can't afford good parts. Ford makes great heads they cost money their own engineers designed them. Same with Chevrolet. their own engineers designed them. This joe copied fred stuff is b/s and it needs to go away.
The reason this head was originally banned in NASCAR was because it didn't maintain the stock architecture. Back then NASCAR actually still had a few rules requiring stock type components. Ford got to run canted valves because they had production small blocks with canted valves. I suspect that's why they didn't get rid of the siamesed exhaust ports with these heads. NASCAR wasn't willing to let them venture that far from stock. When Toyota came in all bets were off on engines and that gave us the RO7 and FR9 engines after Toyota kicked their butts for a few years.
@@WeingartnerRacing I hated to see them come in, but what really sucked how they were allowed to come in. Since they didn't have a pushrod V8 they were allowed to build their own as long as they stayed within the limits the other manufacturers had at the time. That meant they got to choose the best characteristics of every other engine on the track and put them together in one engine. Best bore spacing, best deck height, best bore and stroke, best valve sizes and angles, etc. Then they hit the track and won 10 of 12 truck championships before everyone else caught up. It was a joke. And NASCAR wonders why they are struggling.
NASCAR actually got someone to go buy up a Roush, Yates, and Bernstein(?) or someone, engine from each Ford builder, and gave those to Toyota and said if they built an engine with those attributes, they would approve it. I lost a bunch of respect from supposedly National Assoc. of Stock Car Auto Racing. @@WeingartnerRacing
Nice head have SB.2 .Wathe a The grate head wathe dou thes flow??? Wath dou you like The Brodix 11X. CSB..Wanth build 443-454 cui. Wathe can thes Brodix 11X Flow max.Rev limit 7.500..rpm..
In 1967 the Camaro Z/28 was released with the sbc dz302 and dominated trans am racing in 68 ford gave a gopher boy a wad of cash and sent him to the chevy dealership to buy a sbc 302 crare engine then ford disassembled it took what they learned and in 68 sbf 302 is released their most successful engine copied from Chevrolet
All Chevrolet did was stick a 283 crank in a 327 to make an engine meet the 5 litre requirent that year, but the 302 Boss(Cleveland headed windsor) ate their lunch
@@DavidPhillips-rs5dq to be fair, those engines run on a fuel that is basically a bomb. I'm sure there's science that goes into it, but it seems to me that the goal is simply shoving as much of that fuel in as possible and HOPING it doesn't blow the thing to smithereens before the finish line. It's impressive they can do it, for sure. Honestly, I've seen TF and FC in person, and it is impressive, but I don't find it entertaining at all.
@@rocketsurgeon11 they are still awesome when they aren't in top fuel, the very first race they were in they were ever in they destroyed well seasoned and sorted out race engines.
@@DavidPhillips-rs5dq OK...doesn't really answer the question. We all know the *combo* is the key. Glad they worked. But my question is more on the mechanics/theory of WHY/HOW.
When will someone cast an affordable symmetrical intake AND exhaust port SBC head !?!? Basically an LS head that fits a SBC at an LS head price. If it can be successfully done with LS heads offshore why won't anyone make an affordable 11°-15° symmetrical SBC head ??
Well I don't think this is a LS type looking head because LS is a inline valve these sb2.2 I believe Eric says they looks closer to a Cleveland than a LS head I wish LS heads were canted that would be awesome
@@chevyrc3623 Plymouth Polydyne head out of the late '50s had canted valves... also the 235 cu in Chevy Stovebolt 6 had canted exhaust valves... as did Farmall 4 cylinder tractors.
WELL , CHEVROLET does not really care about its race involvement like ford and have even stated this fact.. !! Rodger Penske left Chevrolet in nascar because of this fact … Tony Stewart did the same ….😮
You must be a drag racer using turbos ..other wise who really cares ? Check out WORLD OF OUTLAW SPRINT CARS … wedge head 410 at around 900 HP do just great ! 🏁😮
"nascar outlawed the head"... nothing new, nascar has a long history of outlawing anything with a decided advantage over the competition. hemi's, wing cars, etc, etc, etc. instead of letting the competition work it out, they just outlaw anything that makes the slower cars not competetive.
Looks like a Ford head to me but chevy guys will never admit it.....they just put there own spin on it. Ford set the stage for heads like this with the Cleveland. Was there room for improvement yes, like anything but, Ford started this but as usual the chevy guys and the aftermarket industry takes credit for it....could you imagine if Ford came out with or, had a siamese port head that, somehow worked better what the chevy guys would say????
@@WeingartnerRacing Y block.... So where did Chev get their siamese exhaust ports from... The Ford Y Block! Those pre date the SBC btw. That head is more Ford than you know in fact it is all Ford, Ford Canted valve quench chambers, Ford Y block Siamesed exhaust ports Ford intake ports. What exactly there is pure GM? Oh Maybe the umptten head bolts since GM could not do it with 10 like Ford, that is until the Windsor LS...
This is some cool stuff no matter who made them … Nascar history and all . But its funny how all the ford purists will come on these info video’s and trash CHEVROLET as some kind of copy cat manufacturer in every way possible.. ! These ford cry babies must be drag racers because i haven’t read where Champions LIKE DALE EARNHARDT, JEFF GORDON OR JIMMIE JOHNSON HAVE DID MUCH COMPLAINING WITH ALL THOSE WINS AND RACKING UP CHAMPIONSHIPS USING A CHEVROLET POWER-PLANT…! 🏁🏁🇺🇸
There are multiple versions of the C3 heads. Some are canted, others are not. To make matters worse, Ford used the same casting number for multiple heads.. E3ZM-6049-C3 and later M-6049-C3, could be had either way....... Heads with these casting numbers, could have had canted or just staggered valves. Some C3 heads are indeed, canted valve heads.
Funny reading all the comments and no one states the real fact that ford copied dodge! Yes it's true and very factual! The poly 318 was out first and copied by ford
This head has a lot of problems !!!! Head bolt in the intake port area ??? What were they thinking ! And the worst part is the two exhaust valves side by side creating tremendous heat and gasket failures , but now Chevy has !!!! Copied ford by doing separate intake and separate exhausts, now a days you can’t tell what is what any more
you absolutely do not know what you're talking about. there was no problem with the flow of that head and if you're talking about the head bolts and the intake Port A lot of them are like that they've been doing that since the 60s when they added the extra bolt holes at the top on a big block Chevyhave you ever looked at the tunnel Port heads Ford off of 427 they actually have a push rod going through the intake they press the tube in there right in the center of the intake portyeah there's no problem with that head bolt it is actually a good design and the best part about it is it doesn't affect air flow
Chevy has never copied Ford never had to raise intake Port they copied that idea from Chevrolet on the Cleveland Canton valve it's like a big block Chevy
Doesnt kill flow like youd think. Same with valve stem or a rocker bolt that hangs down in to the port like some larger sbc heads do. Numbers in fact are about the same
These WERE copied from the 335 series. You would have to change cams and firing order among other things if not for Making siamese ports and chambers does not hide the fact that these have canted valves almost identical to a 335 ford. The chambers and runners are ALL ford and the wedge chevy WAS junk and won’t compare to a 335 head. You are delusional!
Nope for never made ports facing different directions they were all the same. If wedge were junk why did they win so much in the 90s. Gordon, Earnhardt, labonte.
@@jameyharviston2452 I’m old school back when horsepower actually mattered. Ford was dominant back in the era. It’s nothing but an IROC series now. What NASCAR has turned into is nothing like it was when innovation by teams made the difference, not NASCAR mandates. At one time Ford was the ONLY manufacturer that had to run restrictor plates at super speedways because of that Cleveland cylinder head. In NHRA competition the cleveland engine had to carry more weight per cubic inch than hemi chryslers or anything else. These heads are almost identical to a Ford cleveland(335series) engine other than their outdated Siamese ports and chambers. They also resemble the old Yblock Ford. It was designed by the same guy that designed the mouse motor that made Chevy famous.
@@Axeman428There you ford peoples go again… everyone in the whole world copies the ford design… do you remember when bill Elliot’s coors ford embarrassed the GM guys in NASCAR ..? CHEVROLET had the 18degree heads but they were not approved for competition for a few years so yeah it took awhile to get about even ..! Ford it seems have always did better on big SUPER SPEEDWAYS and a lot of drag racing so what are you whining about ? Go and look at ROAD COURSES and you will find the Chevrolet Small block haz kicked fords butt !! How’s that ? Could it be at the time a wedge head worked a little better ?? How about the NHRA SUPER STOCK TRUCK SERIES where BILL JENKINS LITTLE CHIEF HEADED SMALL BLOCK CHEVY won that series too ..! I grew up around sprint cars and they still dominate that series with the wedge headed stuff .. Some day maybe GM will build a 4/ salve head and when the y do they will most likely look at what works well and go for it … and the ford guys will really complain Chevrolet copied ford ..! With todays technology , everything is possible if you can afford it !!! Oh by the way you must really hate the LS platform LOL…🤣🏁
@@WeingartnerRacing Also take a look at road course and short track winners .. The Chevrolet has just dominated…with 23* or 18 *degree or the SB 2.2 wedge heads they couldn’t have been that bad ? LOL… I also remember Jack Roush complaining about the SB-2’S in the Busch series using the V-6 back in the day .. Eric, we street raced for years and never lost to a ford but their were not many Clevelands or big block mustangs running around so i can’t figure out ford guy a crying.. ? They act like smokey Yunick for Bill Jenkins snuck into the Ford’s garages and stole their engineering…? Thanks for the history on some of this back in the day stuff…
Most ford guys are weird pointing fingers barking Ford has invented the wheel and there's no better inventor other than Ford and any thing that was made other than ford copied ford !! Ford ford ford dud its all fun and games and smiles it really is stop being so up tight u are not the first person and wont wont be the last so just enjoy your time and be happy thats the most important thing in life making comments like Ford is the best everybody's thinking this dude's a dickhead bet his wife is happy Not lol !! This is a joke please take it as 1 and get a laugh out of it hope everyone has a great day and smile most of all life is good ! The internet comments are better 😊😂😂😂!!
