Not only guns allso tanks I cant even coint how manny tines have I playd infantry buld and had enught tanks to buld a division thanks to maintanence company
These videos get progressively more investigative and seeing more and more bugs/irrational number soup. I love hoi4 and will play it in spite of the ugliness but paradox must be sweating like "He knows. He knows. He knows!"
I never knew the reliability bonus was multiplicative! That seems a bit silly, considering you'd probably want Maintenance Companies for low reliability equipment, when it seems its more so just the rich get richer, so to speak.
Finland vs USSR, Finland sitting in it's fort line with infantry divisions using engineers, AA, and maintenance companies. The equipment capture economy.
I mean, that's just Wehrmacht 101 right there. Biggest loot goblins '39-45. Stole everything that wasn't nailed down or on fire - and if you could pry it loose with a crowbar or welder, it didn't count as nailed down. Ask the Dutch about their bicycles sometimes, they're still sore about it. 🤣
This channel is so underrated for Game which has such big following. after watching your videos I understand that this game is buggy stupid mess. so much things does not make sence, but without testing you dont understand this.
Yeah honestly I use maintenance in every division because it seems to increase the amount of cas you get back from being shot down by aa. I'm assuming that's also because of this bug. Also, I find they pay for themselves very quickly.
Indeed, just conunting production numbers, if enemy has cas, and you have anti-air guns, you actually gain a lot of cas compared to extra losses suffered from using support equipment.
What about maintenance and closing encirclements? It does seem silly there is no base equipment capture for divs. 1% per inf brigade would be reasonable, I feel. It's not like dough boys would send Lugers and Walthers and all sorts of kit home as war prizes or anything.
Yeah I'd like to see this too. What is the equipment capture rate (not ratio) when closing an encirclement with/without maintenance companies? Also, how does it scale with equipment relative abundance, like guns vs tanks, etc?
Adding realism to the game= confusion between branches of military (field troops->support troops->field command->high command->you. all the data fucking conflicting and chaotic lol)
It remids me of my pre-NSB Poland strategy of "acquiring" war materials from USRR. After 1-2 Years of Soviet Osnlaught my divisions with Maintenance Companies took over 2000 '36 Light Tanks, tremendously cut on losses in most used equipment and fully supplied themselves with guns while they started the war at only 80% Guns needed (as it was the whole plan to produce more Support Eq at the cost of guns). Fun times.
I do believe that in the real life winter war Finland had not many tanks and their one and only tank charge was primarily not made by imports (as they had no domestic ones), but by "imports"
holy shit, I always knew the theater combat log was buggy, but I never thought there'd actually be equipment coming out of thin air. Thanks for looking into this! I wonder, can you just submit this video as a bug report on the PDX forums?
I feel naive. I saw the casualties disparities and I thought I must be misunderstanding something. But the game is just wholly wrong on every conceivable level.
@@rogerr.8507 i lost all faith in this game when about a week ago i as italy had 10k cas over germany while germany had zero oil to use their planes had zero static aa and zero field aa yet i was losing cas faster than my 200mils can reproduce them wtf….. Ps: these were Cas 3s with 100% reliability so yeah and i had -35% debuff on air accidents
@@juhoalander3461 i just pointed it out that germany didn't have any kind of AA nor planes in the air yet with 100% reliability 10k cas i was losing more planes than what 200 military factories was able to produce, this is absolute bullshit
Couple things to add, the combat log equipment precision depends on your intel of the enemy country, secondly the spawning equipment from reserves is a known exploit particularly strong when using mass mob with many stacked divisions even without maintenance, that has to my knowledge been removed in hmm dev and elwolfmod
Once again, Maintenance Company seems to be something that's most useful in the very late game. As established earlier, there is a significant difference between the attrition taken by 80-95% reliability tanks. Making a tank that has 80% reliability while still retaining good armor and other hard stats (ie: at least as good as pre-NSB tanks) is already a pain in the ass, making a tank that has 90-95% is next to impossible. Level 4 Maintenance Companies can bridge the gap. If my calculation is right, slapping a Maintenance Company IV on tanks with 84% reliability will actually jack it up to a little over 100%. This comes especially handy for minor nations that don't have the industrial output to spare to easily replace attritional losses on their few but valuable elite tank divisions. The reliability bonus on other equipment is also handy if one is planning to make a defensive line in mountainous areas, where attrition is ever-present.
I think they should spilt the development team like they do with stellaris custodian dev, on team for future updates and one for fixing or rework old feature
Dude thank you for putting all the work, I found this a while ago because i like maintenance companies, but the numbers didnt add up. I still dont understand but hopefully a dev sees the last few mins of the video where you describe the bug. Subbed, thanks for doing the excel!
For the invasion of russia test, if you compare non infantry equipment attrition losses (using only german equipment and ignoring the rest) I actually lost more equipment with maintenance companies than without. Some how using maintenance companies nearly double my recon tank and aa losses.
@@71Cloak Could it be attributed to reduced org? I mean support companies do lower org of a division. Or maybe you should repeat mountain test but with division that has other stuff and not just inf equip and taks?
@@SoFZlodei24 that's the thing though. Aa and recon tanks had high enough org that they should have only been taking minimum attrition losses. With or without maintenance companies. A small reduction in org should not have made that big of a difference.
I noticed the equipment reliability factor came into play for recovering your own small arms when I played Manchukuo. There's a decision that's called set up underground workshops which gives you 3 off map military factories in exchange for -25% or something infantry equipment reliability and you can see a substantial difference for guns recovered in the logs when that modifier is on/off. Granted I didn't do any math to see if 3 factories net you a higher positive in your infantry equipment balance over the 25% reliability helping your recapture rate vs how generally active your forces are with their combat and attrition losses OR even if the % modifier actually adds up to 25% and not some random number the game pulled out of a hat because paradox couldn't be bothered to check if the game mechanics are working as advertised or intended. Just thought it could be relevant, thanks for the videos, your basically doing the devs jobs for them 👍.
have you seen diffrance in guns in tank test?(first test) , meitenance companies are most important for things you cant change relialability , artylery , trucks , antyair , motorised , support equipment:) in first tank test 5.4k lost guns without meitenance AND 1126 supper equipment , and with meitenance 1213 guns and 1200ish support (so despite you use more support equipment your not losing much more of it) and mind you like you said you only used lv2 , and diffrance in lost infantry weapons was 5 times almost:) it also reduces loses when "training your divisions" so yes in my opinion they are worth especialy if your fighting equal force or doing "atricion war who breaks first" but they also help in wars you would win anyway as your basicly "generating free equipment you dont need to produce" HOi4 is is production and economics war , equipment saved is equipment you not need to produce as much as i love your test i think you glanced too much over some aspects of them , iv done quite a lot research and play on them and they make staggering differences , sometimes cutting loses 4 times or 5 times even if its outdated equipment , you can use it for garisons(or better) land lease it to your allies it kinda triggers me you covered equipment lost on tanks , but not done same test for infantry divisions/artylery/AA , when in first tank test it clearly makes difference (1200guns lost to 5.400 ) ESPECIALY infantry divisions is your "most used" template in hoi4
I have to say, there's nothing that quite matches the feeling of doing a fortress Luxembourg build with maintenance companies where you eventually steal enough tanks to deploy a full division of stolen tanks
I find they are great for any spam armies and when you do huge land grabs and suddenly need a massive garrison army. Someone else mentioned it and it's true, that I end up somehow with a lot of my enemies airforce also. It seems to grab everything that was involved in the combat.
Back in 2016 or something, I was playing with maintenance companies. What I noticed is that I get less infantry and mechanized equipment attrition (that have more than 50 in stocks), but it have no effects on artillery or support companies (that are around and less than 50). Later than 2016 in wiki I found out attrition formula, and it made sense. There is minimal amount of attrition that is equivalent of 50 gear of 80 % reliability; so adding maintenance company and higher level of reliability don't affect.
I have another test for you. I did a test with strategic bombers very long ago where infound that while they were building eficciency you couldent intercept more% than they had eficciency meaning you could bomb buildings even tho at 100% eficciency they would get 100% intercepted
It's possible that all the captured equipment displayed in the inventory is not all the captured equipment. Some of the captured German equipment might have gone into the POL divisions. Check the equipment of the POL divisions. Edit: Wait-a-second...the test accounted for that (?) "I disallowed foreign equipment" in the template design. Great testing! Keep up the good work -- Bill
According to the wiki "Attrition is the loss of equipment [...] when fighting on the offensive." But you lost equipment to attrition when simply moving your troops around without attacking. So is the wiki wrong?
There is an attrition penalty in mountain tiles of 40%. I've no idea what that actually means because if it was actually 40% no one would ever fight on mountain tiles. I'm guessing it kicks in when you move off and on it.
I love that you can capture CAS/TAC using AA + maintenance, lol. Shame that it doesn't work properly, though not surprising. Can still be some decent IC in grind wars though.
I am using maintenance like always. Because from my experience, lack of equipment causes dramatic increase of manpower losses. Especially they are crucial for pricey division like tanks.
so , 83/84 % reliability tank with level 4 maitnance company is the best balance. Actually , for heavys and super heavys it is well worth it. you can invest more in armor and stuff
How long was your war? If longer than 12 months? The log dates back 12 months. This might explains why you captured less compared to your stockpille (aka. 1800 from thin air)? Your tests are always well thought through, so I just want to hint that. :) Or even the "12 month" that it is suppoed to date back, is the buggy part.
So first, hospitals are shit, then, we discover that recon is bad, and then signals, and now you're telling me that maintenance is also borked? just what the fuck happened here?
@@DerCheckerzeigts Armoured Recon with high quality tanks, Engineers, AA, AT, Support ART, Support rockets, flame tanks and supply companies are all still really good depending on your situation.
I dont know if you took this into consideration for the vs soviet save that you showed @7:15 but the losses that are shown in the threatre combat log are for the last 12 months max. whereas the logistics tab shows the actual stockpile. Which might help explain the discrepancy between those two, if the war lasted more than a year of course.
Hi Cloak Would you mind investigating manpower?Seems bugged as well.for example, in my current playthrough manpower tooltip says: total manpower 5.3 mil used manpower 1.7mil available manpower 2.4mil shouldn't available manpower be 3.6mil? Am I missing something?
If one player in MP has Maintenance, then the other should have it too. Actually it seems like an OP Support Company. If you're always going to be losing equipment no matter what, then there's no reason not to spam it unless you are very mil factory poor and can't make enough Support Eq.
used to do maintenance companies for china because I couldn't build anything else fast enough to replace my losses. Would often end up stealing enough japanese arty to make a few divisions capable of pushing japan back to the sea.
Just a correction, 32 out of 800 and so ended up being 4.3% and not 0.043% . Still I think you were using maintence 2 so it still was supposed to be 10% not 5%. If It is maintence 1 and out of those 5% some got lost due terrain atrition it can make more sense. There may be many rounded numbers before the percentage is applyed
I don't get your conclusion. It seems great to capture and retain all that equipment and you pay for that just with some support equipment you can produce since the start of the game with maximum efficiency.
Are you assuming the recovery rate is based on the own losses? That would not be logic. The recovery rate should be based on the enemy losses. so of course any division (fighting or not) can recover them
Reserves reclaiming equipment is actually disgustingly good vs the AI The AI is dumb enough to attack your tanks in certain positions, so you can constantly cycle your reserves over and over again and effectively get 15 factories worth of production on tanks and mechanized for only 100k manpower worth of 2 widths you don't even lose and can recycle into other stuff later on.
Doesn't surprise me there's bugs... Been playing Kaiserreich lately and the game was going back and forth btw stuff like your garrisons are short by 3 rifles! You have 1.1mil rifles in reserves! Your short of tanks! You have 100k tanks in reserve! ect ect
@@VarenvelDarakus Not a rounding error, just statistical variance. Roll some dice a hundred times, your average outcome for those hudnred rolls might differ from the mathematical average by a surprisingly large degree. Roll 'em a million times, you're liable to be much closer to the average.
Maintenance is good in poor countries because you can defend and steal equipment even better than yours. Shouldn't help with a big country but with a small one every weapon/tank stolen helps a lot.
I'll be honest your tests trigger me. It's like because no one bothered to do proper tests before this is so eye opening. This shit should work as it's intended, its been 6 years after release.
he done good test but have anyone noticed "guns and support" loses in first test? its 5 times diffrance and he just "glances over it like its nothing" , then proceeds not to do any tests how bigger articion loses are in "infantry divisions" , it triggers me becouse infantry divisions ARE MOST used one and he not tested how much meitenance affects loses of equipment , artylery etc , , good test but he missed the main point of meitenance companies
For the invasion of russia test that I didn't show the finished results because the capture was all messed up. If you only look at attrition for my own equipment, I lost less guns and artillery with maintenance but more recon, aa, and support equipment. Non infantry equipment losses where actually higher with maintenance companies than without.
i think you don't capture any equipment at all if you aren't using manteinance companies, so even if it's less than what it should be it's still more than nothing.
Here's a better question. Why can't you capture friendly equipment? Soldiers in real life would most certainly pick up the weapons of their comrades or allies, if not to use once you've depleted your own weapon then to bring home for resupplies. We have ambulances for conserving manpower but maintenance can't pick up our own dropped equipment?
@@71Cloak I thought it might just be Paradox waiting to hide it as a "paid feature" behind the Italy or Scandinavia DLC but unintentional friendly pickups makes just as much sense lol
Fck this game is bugged like hell. I wonder if any of the numbers the game shows you are actually true. Im afraid that the game is actually just made up to look like a stats game, but in fact its a game based on numbers that the devs didnt even remember what they should mean, and they just put it there to make it look complete.
