It actually is when speaking on the NBA. Besides clocking in and out what else has he done besides get his shit pushed in by Giannis and then get swept like trash by the same Celtics, Curry absolutely dismantled. You think clocking in and out was just as much as Curry “you don’t wanna see us next year” and back it up with the finals mvp? Get outta here man Curry is tier 2/3, Durant remains tier 4
@@aidangroves5153 you’re a casual if you believe the bullshit you just typed. He proved absolutely everyone wrong meanwhile taking on one of the best historical defense in nba history. The same defense that locked up Kyrie and Durant. His finals performance is something only an all time great does. You’ve never watched a full nba game in your life and it shows bud
Timmy being a tier below Kobe is ridiculous. Same number of rings, Timmy has more MVPs, FMVPs, All-NBA, All-Defense and was a better leader and franchise cornerstone while playing at the exact same time. He came into the league ready to win titles and left the league still in contention. Never ran off a superstar teammate, wasn't missing the playoffs in the middle of his prime, won 50 games every year. The entire idea of the Spurs as a great organization starts the day he's drafted and ended the day he retired.
Duncan did not have more All NBA or Defensive selections than kobe unless you really want to count 2nd or 3rd team apperances. Not to mention kobe has the edge over him in playoff matchups
That's the whole point. He is that good and has shown to be in a category of his own in such a short time, just like LeBron did. Not only that, dude was a 3 year veteran pro by the time he made the NBA. He deserves a spot for sure and so do Harden, Giannis and D-Wade should've stayed too.
Y’all should react to the “making the case Tim Duncan”, there’s a full series on players where this guy breaks down their careers and makes the case for who’s the goat
Knowing these guys, they probably won't, or at least when they do, they'll most likely just clown the vids. I can already see Sage saying some dumb shit like "I ain't calling a guy who played against plumbers and firemen the GOAT" in the Wilt and Russell vids and Solz continuously coming up with some weak ass counterarguments in the Kareem vid. I like these two as content creators, but I don't think they're open minded enough to be able to sit through both "Making the Case" series without having to be toxic about it.
The Tim Duncan disrespect is shameful. Man’s dominated for 15 years and was still effective well into his waning years bc of his incredible IQ and bag on the block and his all time post defense. He won his first ring in year two and his 5th and final in year 17 at 37 while never missing significant time in his NBA career. He was the consummate professional and an amazing leader that will be a great coach. He truly did everything and never slacked in the little stuff. That’s what makes him so great.
@@josephschmizzo1595 lol guess you didn’t watch much ball in the 2000’s. The only other big at the time who was on his level was shaq and he and Shaq had many amazing battles, just as many won by Tim as Shaq. He’s one of the greatest interior defenders of all time and was absolutely dominant on the inside, and on the other side of the court his post bag was so fundamentally sound and razor sharp that he was unstoppable, while also being one of the best passing big men in the league and arguably the best at boxing out for rebounds. He did everything right, and his back to back MVP’s say everything there is to say. He came in the league working people in the block, he left the league still working people on the block. He’s an indisputable top ten player of all time. He’s got 5 chips that he was the guy for every one of, he had the longevity and was dominant on BOTH sides of the court. Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
@@thomasredden4263 a) he wasnt the “guy” for every one of his chips…Tony Parker carried that team after 2010. Duncan’s last FMVP came in 05 b) Hakeem is the far better post player and defender…its not even close, and thats why i have Hakeem at #6 all time while Duncan is at 11 just ahead of Shaq at 12 c) ive been watching bball since Jordan was in his prime d) Every big that can pass, yall say is “one of the best passing big men of all time” lol knock it off e) he never defended the title or led the league in any statistic…and MVPs are nothing burger awards that overly celebrates bigs and rewards stat padders. It doesnt mean anything…Steve Nash won 2 in a row and hes definitely not even top 20. f) Duncan is a glorified role player who was essentially the best role player of all time…thats not an insult, thats who he was.
@@josephschmizzo1595 dawg, that team was built around his ability to move the ball, they were literally the best passing team potentially of all time, Tony Parker was great, and an awesome number 2, but he wasn’t running that team, Tim Duncan was still as big an offensive piece as Tony at the end of his career and in their final run, with the ball constantly moving through him in the post, and he was still the anchor of the post on defense while Kawhi took the best wing/ guard on the opposition. Just bc he wasn’t flashy doesn’t mean he wasn’t dominant; in fact I’d say it’s far more impressive what Tim did than Hakeem considering the other worldly athlete Hakeem was. Duncan was also the court general on both sides and constantly put his teammates in positions to succeed in a way I’ve never seen a player do outside of Jason Kidd to that level. He filled up the box score plenty, but what he did from a leadership perspective, defensively for his entire career with only a slight drop of by the end, and his ability to always rise to the occasion all go way beyond the box score, I have him 7th all time and Hakeem 11th or 12th, I go back and forth.
@@thomasredden4263 he always had a stacked deck while also having the best front office/coach in NBA history…the perception of his success as a leader is tainted by the fact that he was born w a silver spoon in his mouth so to speak, as an NBA player. He was load managed his entire career and played role player minutes/took role player field goal attempts for easily half of his entire career. If u have him 7th…fine, but theres no logical way for me to put him in the top 10 since the emergence of Lebron, KD and Steph. Maybe Tim was top 10 15 yrs ago…i just cant see it today.
Just the all time assists and steals leader. He belongs and I think both Harden and CP3 are tier 5 just like Stockton. I’m gonna be honest Stockton isnt overrated or underrated. He’s overhated. You don’t become the all time leader in assists simply by playing with Karl Malone.
He couldn’t score worth shit he was a pass first ball hog. He was a system player at best and just gambled on steals. No chance he over cp3 joker harden or ai
How many finals de CP get to? How many times did u need to see Harden go hard on the regular season then flop in the playoffs? Bro the man plays for 20 years is the all time assist leader and top 10 in steals, was amazing from the FT line, are people realy knocking off cause the system he played favoured Malone scoring? If we go by that logic them what about MJ and Pippen, Magic and Kareem, plus the man played on the loaded west and had to beat, Hakeem Rockets, Clyde Portland, The Glove sonics, Barkley suns, Webber kings and the lakers to get to a final and he did 2 times against MJ and lost but so did everybody else during Jordan era.
@@glcsander bro what are u on about stockton wasn’t even the best player on his team and it wasn’t close. Give Malone who was a top 4 player minimum at that time any the players I name and they likely beat the bulls at least once. Stockton is a glorified Ricky Rubio
@@glcsander cp got to one final Stockton got to 2 playing with a top 5 player in the league for 20 years. How many times did they crash out from the playoffs and choked against inferior competition, we just remember the losses of today's players and not past players. And also what did Stockton do in the finals that he made? They lost a finals game against the bulls in 97 where they scored like 50 pts all game and they choked away a very winnable series in 98 just stop it Stockton never scored 35 pts in an nba game his whole career
@@robert2690 he isn’t talking about cp3 he’s talking about harden and even if he was talking about cp3 is peak was much higher then Stockton and he also has great longevity you have no argument
@@peewee130946 Stockton sucks because he can’t tween hesi splash. Solz and sage are the same Niggas talking about how tween hesi splash is dumb but are using it to discredit Stockton. 16pts,13assists/3 steals for a decade is amazing numbers. Doing that on 52/39/82 splits is all so amazing.
@@kash125 no Stockton sucks because he was left wide open constantly and couldn’t even dribble with his left. Also they’ve used the tween hesi splash argument against other people
Hating on Larry is outrageous. Larrys greatness shouldn't need to be thought about at all. He's goated. One of the best passers in full court and had eyes in the back of his head it seemed like. I think he was better than magic. And that's on Bill Russell
Sage's point about the black and white pictures is dumb asf. We should get rid of the HOF then imo. Being the most dominant during your era should be recognized, basketball is the only sport where niggas bring up that arguement.
I cant understand the Stockon hate, how can a player be the all time leader in assist and steals and be considered mid? Cause he had Malone? Cause of his Coach? Cause of his system? If we go by that logic doesnt everybody favorite player Steph Curry also gets disqualified? I dont understand how the community can celebrate achievings like the all score leaders, but them turn the eye to the others stats, the guy was for the most part of his career an iron man, 20 years of prodution and one of the core points of his teams system, the only fault in his career is a lack of a ring but thats most of the stars and superstars in late 80s and 90s, the league was under the thumb of Magic, Bird and later MJ.
@@BasketballHighway19 LMAO yeah thats definitely why he's "disrespected" I'm def putting CP3 over him. Better individual defender and he was the reason that DeAndre Jordan was ALL NBA FIRST TEAM lmfaooo you think he wouldn't do exactly what stockton did if he had Malone?
This.. honestly I kept looking at disgust when watching this video thinking "This man has an assists record that will probably never be broken in our lifetimes... wtf are y'all talking bout?" like wtf are these 2 on right now
@@KrisNation no he still wouldn't have the durability stockton did for damn near 20 seasons. He wouldn't have hit the biggest shot in jazz franchise history to send them to the nba finals in 97. And John stockton didn't choke 5 2-0 leads in his career, thats just embarrassing. John stockton has the records, the longevity, and playoff success over chris paul
Solz claiming Stockton, the untouchable record-holder in assists and steals who played until 2002, couldn’t dribble with both hands is a grade school take.
He also claims that Kareem being top 5 ever is dubious, like what??? I fuck with these two and just NBA RU-vid in general, but I'll be honest with you, I can't take half of their takes seriously especially regarding the older eras. Everyone clowns Flight, Cash, and Oprah for being dumb casuals when the reality is that more than half of the guys on this platform are just more "normal" versions of those dudes.
@@overez2969 id pay real money to watch them play bro you could never know how hard something is to do on the court unless you go out and do it stockton in his 60's would 21-0 them
Yeah, the way Solz is raging over Stockton dribbling is embarrassing to watch. Stockton’s doing exactly what LeBron does sometimes. It’s ok to wait for the offense to run.
All time steals leader and assist leader 2 time in the NBA finals 16 times he played all 82 games. Chris Paul always hurt when it matters or doesnt show up but is he a better player yeah properly but we have to look at all the things combined and players of today gets away with travel every other possession back in the days you couldnt do that
@Someone A better overall resume? He has a negative playoff record with multiple horrible games in the finals, add that he played with a top 20 MVP player in Malone for two decades and overall had a good roster/coach. CP3 played against harder competition, had significant injuries to important teammates, never had a MVP player besides him like Stockton besides Harden for two years. People are too enamored with the assist/steals record for Stockton, ironic considering Paul is probably going to finish 2nd all time in Assist and steals while dealing with injuries his whole career. Paul is also having a longevity argument.
Still don't get the Stockton disrespect tbh. I get that he's not the flashiest guy in the world and he never really jumps out in the highlight films, but he got it done for a really long time. Just for context, Chris Paul right now at age 37 has fallen off a cliff (11-5-9 on 51% true shooting) and is missing a lot of games due to injury. Stockton at the same age started every game and averaged 12-3-9 on 59% true shooting. I'm not trying to suggest that Stockton is better than CP3 (Paul blows him away in ability), but as Jxmy said in his video, their **careers** (emphasizing this because I think both Solz and Sage didn't get this part) are remarkably similar.
@@nachoalvarez7171their peaks are more comparable than you think. peak stockton averaged 17/14 and 3 steals on 60% ts. peak cp3 averaged 21/11.6 and 3 steals on 57% ts. i do think that chris paul’s assists were more valuable than stockton’s, so i give chris paul the edge in peak. that’s not considering the 19 years of quality production stockton provided. he started 82 games for the last four years of his career, and all 50 in the lockout shortened year five years before his retirement. honestly it comes down to preference, but i think it’d be easier to win more over a longer period of time with stockton than cp3.
Solz saying Stockton got to the finals and lost twice while conveniently leaving out that he lost to the damn Bulls lol. I'm not even that big of a fan of Stockton's game but I respect greatness. Saying he shouldn't be on here is absolutely fine but if your reasoning is because he can't go left that's some OSN or Flight logic.
Well to be great and to be high on these lists you gotta beat great teams. Stockton and Malone were teammates for almost their entire career with no chips and two finals appearances and it’s not like the teams they had were not able to beat to win at least one even if it’s not against the bulls.
You used an individual stat to hypeup stockton , but used team success/lack off to trash cp3. what did stockton do in those finals, and the playoffs before ?
I’m gonna set things straight here. Scoring: Paul Rebounding: Paul Playmaking: Stockton Defense: Paul Playoffs: Stockton Shooting: Stockton Longevity: Stockton Peak: Paul Durabilty: Stockton Efficiency: Stockton Assists-Turnovers: Paul Total: Stockton: 6: Paul 5 Stockton wins
The Stockton slander has to stop. Yeah I said it. Notice how Jxmy's pyramid isn't named the BOAT pyramid for Best of all time, it's called the GOAT pyramid for Greatest of all time. John Stockton is not a better basketball player than maybe the 30 or 40 players ranked behind him, but he's a greater player than any one of them. He holds 2 arguably unbreakable league records, has made multiple All NBA 1st teams, finished in the top 10 of MVP voting 5 times, and was directly responsible for generating over 50,000 points in his career. He's an all time great.
@@davidnkemitag4362 Yeah CP peaked higher and is the better basketball player than Stockton was, but Stockton is still slightly greater. These guys are acting like Stockton was some random bum
Why are you arguing about Chris Paul over Stockton? Look at the list even if you put him in over Stockton he’s getting removed the next time you do the list. WTF are you talking about people on the last tier for the majority of the video? It’s the bottom tier, those spots aren’t safe. I wish I would spend ten minutes talking about who the hell is # 26-30. Did you really go that hard on Stockton, like why the hell would you care if Chris Paul gets a bottom spot for what, eight months before someone like Luka makes the cut.
0:26 I know this was the pyramid he had 3 years ago but john Stockton over David Robinson, Dirk, AI, Moses Malone,Jerry west,Charles Barkley,and KG is just so wrong😂
John Stockton is the leader in assists and steals and his records will likely not be broken. He met MJ 2 times in the finals, back to back. John Stockton deserves his place. Heavily underrated. The man generated countless points.
generated countless point to one of the best scorers ever. Im sorry but a ringless second option can never be in this pyramid. you are either a legit first option or have won rings being a second option to be there
@@deanoss777 Stockton still averaged a respectable amount of points for his career and had a good shooting percentage. He was an all around player. Legends will tell you that he is what a point guard is supposed to be.
The Bob Pettit disrespect is real. I can at least respect “get him outta there if he in black and white” rather than “he just ain’t good enough” 4 all star game MVP’s 2 MVP’s a championship at the same time as the Russell Celtics and career averages of 26.4 & 16.2. Points and rebounds career averaged combined - he is 2nd in history behind Wilt. Yep.
So cut the all-time leader in steals and assists for a kid who's barely old enough to drink in the U.S who's shown superstar flashes for 3 seasons.... 🤣
The amount of recency bias is crazy also bob cousey and those 50’s and 60’s players didn’t play in a segregated league NBA desegregated in the late 1940’s
Honestly for me Dwade belongs with the tier 4 guys HE WAS THAT GOOD. A lot of people under value him bc he took a backseat to LeBron but he was really that dude 3rd greatest ever at his position.
Larry Bird definitely deserves his spot in tier 2. Peak Larry Bird > Peak Magic, and it is not even a debate. Better scorer, better shooter, better defender and elite playmaker/facilitator (the only thing that Magic is better). Magic is over in the TL because he has more accolades, but remember that Larry is a 3 times MVP in a row and has all defensive team selection. So yeah, Larry Bird deserves his spot in Tier 2. Magic/Bird are just the like 4/5 in my list (I have Bird in 4 though)
Noone at the time believed Magic was better than Bird, they were close but it was unanimous that Bird was better. That's why Bird finished higher in MVP voting nearly every year. It's only because of the way Magic retired and the mythology that's come after that people say Magic is better.
The Stockton disrespect is very unfair this dude a walking 15/10 with 3STLS a game but one thing that nobody talks about is how he played 16 seasons where he played all 82 games. Nobody is touching his record of ASTS and STLS
Those stats aren’t good enough to win a ring period. 20/11 like magic then yes but Stockton is rated high just because of longevity is not enough. Peak and winnings are more important than longevity
They dont rank goats based on whos better than rank them on career accomplishments and numbers which is flawed because these guys played in different eras with different rules with different circumstances
@@bcuno Bill Russell (60’s) and Kareem (70’) were also the undisputed best player of their era. Wilt was never close to Bill watch the thinking basketball video about them and you will realize Wilt was overated thats why he only won 2 chip and he won them when he changed his playstyle and only averaged like 16pts. The 80´s is close between Magic, Bird, Kareem and MJ, and the 2000 is the era with the most parity, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, KG, Wade, Dirk and Iverson were all close in term of stats and accolades.
Stockton is the league's ALL TIME leader in assists AND steals. His career spanned an era where he had to play against MJ, magic, bird, Kareem, olajuwan, Shaq etc... as competition. Put some respect on his name
@@amarevanhook7453 Steph’s better bro…same amount of titles on far less time all on one team. Bron never created a dynasty nor has he impacted the way the sport is played how Steph does.
@Someone sheesh and not to mention the absolute dominant production when it got to playoffs time. There’s a lot misconception around Tim’s early career where people think he’s was only good because of the system he was in, and don’t realise that system in the early 00’s was built around iso post ups. And people who say he had so much help in that 03’ chip because he had tony and Manu forget to mention that manu was a rookie and it was Parker’s 2nd year. Tim average 24 17 5 and 5 blocks in the finals that year, that’s god stats right there.
Yes, let's roost players who play style is different today yet who's play styles set the foundation for players today because they are old and we think outdated. How hilarious that would be.
The main reason Jxmmy put older players so high when they are objectively worse is cuz of his criteria, where he stated that the era players played in was a factor.
Worst in what sense? If rules apply, then this takes a whole another turn. THe older eras had rules that strict their games to a certain that doesn't restrict today's players. For example, players today are able to carry in oppose to strict ball handling rule in the 1950s and 1960s in which your hands can only stay on top of ball, so they had to dribble a certain way...making it look awkward.
Obviously his handles don’t hold up to today’s standards, but Johnny gotta at least get a spot for having the all time record in one of the major statistical categories by a huge margin.
Ok nah this is where I’m actually drawing the line. It’s not about who’s better it’s about who is greater. Stockton has 2 records that will never be touched and in terms of accolades he and Paul have pretty close. Now who is the better player? Chris Paul easily, but that’s not what we are trying to find out now are we
@@hassanromulus1476 yet CP3 couldn't even carry a team to the NBA finals like how Stockton did TWICE (yes he had Malone but how do you not make the finals with Lob City and Prime Harden??)
@@m4sterbr0s injuries? Like every playoffs either blake or cp3 was injured and in 2018 they might've defeated the KD warriors if his hamstring didn't pop, cp3 is honestly just an unlucky dude
I'm not a huge Stockton fan, but he's the all time assist and steals leader for a reason. Man had tons of heart, and determination. He didn't play flashy, and he never won a championship, but he deserves to be up there.
@@christianrollman3006 Better defender, playmaker, and scorer Don’t want to hear all time steals and assist Because that don’t mean shit CP3 is just simply better at everything tbh
@@dumbassdude8372 why are they better? Because their style of play is more flashy? Because they dribble the ball 20× more to do the same thing Stockton did? The jazz went to the finals 2 years in a row, and took jordans bulls to 6 games both times. You all act like he was some amateur. Look, I was a HUGE jordan fan as a kid, and I'll tell you what, Stockton was a good ass player. And he definitely deserves to be on the list. He has all time greatest in two stat categories, and his records are COMPLETELY out of reach for any modern nba player. Harden and cp3 have choked, not just lost, but CHOKED HARD, in the post season. Cp3 holds a record blowing the most 2-0 leads in the playoffs. Those guys are good, but haven't proven themselves enough in the part of the season that matters most.
@@orlastm Kareem is higher on GOAT Lists because most ppl talking about basketball online knows nothing about basketball. They dont have w gauge of the sport so they look primarily at accolades and stats…
Jimmy choice of Stockton vs paul made sense to me because his argument for Stockton was about accomplishments and John stocktons accomplishments are leagues ahead of cp3 I don’t agree with jimmy but I understand where he was coming from
Solz my guy you need to do some learning on dr. j. theres no chance he should be any lower. i need you guys to do reactions to old highlights of these 90 and 80s players that would be so funny. gotta love that 90s lockdown defense with free 5 feet of space.
The recency bias by these two is crazy, it’s a “greatness” pyramid not a “skills” pyramid. Modern players are definitely more skilled but to say that Zeke should come off the pyramid and add Luka is just wild at this point in time. Greatness is subjective that’s why you do your homework and respect the game before talking about it. Their responses show a lack of understanding context and nuance.
CP3’s peak was amazing, but honestly, these past playoffs and a finals appearance, he’s fumbled a lot of his performances. He just doesn’t carry the same height as Curry or Kawhi or Giannis or AHEM John Stockton
Stockton never carried anyone. Malone carried him and both didn't win a chip. And for the record, Stockton had 9 first round exits in his career while Paul only had 6.
These two don't know ball at all lmao. Stockton was beyond elite, got two NBA finals appearances, and OWNS the steal and assist record. CP3 and Harden are two of the biggest playoff frauds, especially harden.
I don’t know why people say the all time assist and steals leader shouldn’t be considered top 30 all time. He’s literally passed the ball to another man more than anyone who has ever touched a basketball. How is that not top 30.
Part of it is him and Karl Malone not being the most likeable people And the clear scoring deficiencies Stockton has compared to other all time greats that makes him very overrated
@@ayaya3954 he said he values peak over longevity, that doesn’t mean a stupidly long career wouldn’t be better than a slightly better peak with constant playoff choaks
@@bazookacantgame constant playoffs choke also apply to Stockton’s career, I would argue he even was a worse choker than cp3, just look at his nba finals stats
@@justinhainsworth7726 Stockton was absolutely garbage against the bulls, one of the worst finals performance by any superstar in 98. Cp3 was decent at least
Ion know why y’all are hating so much, Stockton is the all-time leader in assists & steals & no one else is close. If you really think about, he is statistically the greatest PG of all-time
Statistically speaking John is the worst playoff performer of all the top 10 guards in history. His regular season longevity is great but highly overrated when you see the drastic diminishing returns come postseason
@@christianrollman3006 if he faced a team that won 8 in a row, how was he supposed to win? Imagine if LBJ faced KD’s warriors every time he went to the finals
@@user-rj3pt1qm7khe was up against the team with like 5 of the leagues top 15/20 players, the fact that he even came that close is a testament to his greatest and I don’t want to hear the “those players were only good because bill russell was so good” slander.
