The funniest thing about Feanor to me, is that he's a guy that's built up to be this towering figure of history, a real big-shot that would no doubt change the history of Arda forever... And then he just dies almost as soon as he gets off the boat to Middle-Earth, not a bit closer to actually getting his revenge. As a result, his entire people end up suffering from an Oath made to a guy who died immediately after he swore it and never had to actually deal with it.
I always say that to people when they bring me Ned Stark as the first example to be killed early in the story. I remember the first time I read the Sil. I was loving Feanor, he's still one of my favorites. When they departed from Valinor I was pumped. I couldn't wait for them to arrive in Middle-earth. When he was killed upon arrival, I was; What the hell just happened?! 🙄😒😢lol
But you gotta admit: his final moments were spectacular. If he had just waited for his reinforcements to catch up, Fëanor probably would have lived and perhaps even taken down a balrog or two.
@@jadonsmith3224 not as spectacular as fingolfin. feanor only made an oath to fight morgoth and take back his silmarils, fingolfin actually fought and crippled the dark lord
He did die almost immediately but he did change the history of Arda forever. Had he not done what he did, Middle Earth wouldn't be what it became. No Gondolin, no Nagothrond, Doriath might fall way sooner depending how long it would have taken the Valar to take action. No children of Hurin, no story of Turin, no Numenor, possibly no Beren and Luthien, no Palantir in Middle Earth, no Galadriel in Lothlorien. It pretty much all changes with with decision.
I am super bias, I love Fëanor, his story is that of tragedy. To say he did nothing wrong is madness for sure, but through him and his sons he really is a linchpin to the world of Arda. He is wonderfully crafty, loving, like his birth right (Spirit of Fire) a flame of passion would be the best way to describe him for me, an is one of the best cautionary tales of how to not be blinded by your own lust or desires.
Feanor had Arda's biggest ego save for Melkor. But Feanor, despite the bloody, genocidal and insane path he took, did something extraordinary: the Children of Illuvatar were going to fight the Dark Lord when before it was the Valar who always fought on their behalf or fought Melkor to prepare Arda for the coming of the Children. Feanor took a stand, for all the wrong reasons, which scuppered Morgoth's plans for at least four centuries and half. Without the arrival of the Noldor then Beleriand would have soon fallen and then Morgoth's legions would swept across Middle Earth and enslaved all Men and Elves- and ultimately corrupted and twisted all Men, perhaps making them as irredeemable as the Orcs. What Feanor did started a growing trend where Elves and Men would directly fight the Dark Lords and their armies often with little assistance from the Ainur and seemingly only one direct intervention (War of Wrath). It reached a point where Men grew so mighty that the Kingdom of Numenor could march upon the second Dark Lord, Sauron, and he knew he could not defeat them militarily. And during Sauron's first defeat the Ainur neither intervened nor assisted the Children of Illuvatar, an alliance of Elves and Men defeated Sauron's armies and destroyed Sauron's body and separated him from his ring- which would take him thousands of years to only partially recover his power. And it was Sauron's second and final defeat, again without any intervention of the Ainur (save for the assistance of Gandalf), which ended the menace of the Dark Lords and ensured that Men would take full dominion of Middle Earth. Without Feanor I think the Elves would not have taken greater responsibility and would have dependent still on the Ainur, and Men would be either enslaved by Morgoth or underdeveloped having shown no evidence of independently fighting the Dark Lords. Feanor produced beautiful objects and inventions- the first theme of Illuvatar. Feanor committed terrible deeds- the second theme of Illuvatar. But Feanor's evil eventually yielded a greater good, and so Feanor was Illuvatar's instrument all along- the third theme of Illuvatar.
I agree whole heartedly, with out Feanor, the elves would have stayed in Valinor, and would have never brought there knowledge, wisdom, and craftsmanship to middle earth.
Thank you, my take is the same! Feanor was but an instrument of Eru Illuvatar to defeat Morgoth, I will even say Feanor is kind like of a "chosen one" that was build from the begin to fullfill a task. It has its parallels to one of my other fav fiction character Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, where they have immense natural power and greatness, but due their lack of humility, patience and the horrible influences and misfortunes they had, it led them to a destruction path and eventually their downfall, though all those dark deeds they made eventually led to the greater good.
The Ainur, and Eru actually intervene alot. It was eru that gave gandalf the urge to to talk to thorin on the road it was eru again that degined that bilbo would join thorins company it was in turn eru's intention that bilbo would find the ring for two reasons. He would spare gollum, and He would give up the ring willingly. Therefore inturn, it was eru's intervention frodo get the ring. Eru's intervention is all throughout the story
Eru placed his Flame Imperishable in Feanor to enable him to create marvels beyond the imagination of the Ainur. Morgoth lusted after the Silmarils because Feanor imbued them with that transcendent creative power which Morgoth had sought since his own beginning outside of time. A light that consumes not, but does not dim.
@@BK5250 true, but in retrospect maybe charging off with only part of your own host, and burning boats after kinslaying is foolish--not something to celebrate.
I believe his decision to refuse to hand over to the valar goes to the complicated section for a better reason. Melkor spends years whispering to Feanor that the valar would take his silmarils from him, making him more paranoid about them. And when they outright ask him to hand them over, Feanor believes Melkor's words. So, his decision to refuse is definitely not all on him
He was so paranoid and felt so attacked that he probably ignored that if he hand them over it would have been for the greater good. He was probably also blinded by rage and arrogance in the heat of the moment and could not think "wait, they don't want them because they're gelous or greedy, they want them because they're trying to save the world from permanent darkness!" Also we have that whole theory made by him in person that substains that if someone breaks open a Silmaril a piece of Fëanor's soul would be broken too and he would have straight up died, which yk kinda understandable of him to not give them, just not wanting to die, but we don't know if that's true either. After all of this a random herald comes in and goes "Ehem, so your dad's dead and your gems are all gone". Yeah my man's mental health went DOWN in those moments lol.
I concur so I think this video is just allowing the valar to seem so pure and not taking into account that he has been being manipulated for a long time.
@@grassblock7668 It isn't like that. He would die because he was an artist above all. And it is stated in Silmarillion that some works only come once in a lifetime. That is why Yavanna cannot just recreate the trees. The trees were her masterpiece. Silmarillion was Faenor's masterpiece. And it would be too much for an artist to destroy his masterpiece. He would lose his will to live and he would die because he does not want to live. Not because of something more complicated.
@@TonttuTorvinen That actually makes a lot of sense, and seeing Tolkien (and myself) was an artist I get why he'd go with this idea, very cool. Thx for the insight!
I'm so glad you're back, I've been patiently awaiting your return. I follow several Tolkien channels but you are my favorite. If you were to do an audio book, I'd pay for that. Keep up your passion in life, let it burn and shine like the star of Earendil
Fëanor is an expression of eru illuvitar, just as melkor, bestowed with the greatest gifts and doomed to bring destruction to Arda... Or so it seems. Without his silmaril upon the brow of Eärendil, hope would have failed, Ancalagon would reign uncontested, and the second age never would have come to pass. "And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory." Fëanor is a necessary part of the story, he's clearly not a good guy, but without his craft, oath aside, Morgoth would surely have gained his desire for dominion over middle-earth
"Shall prove but mine instrument", is another hugely significant line of Iluvatar's that seems to resonate with Feanor. In the end, he still did what he had to do to fulfil Iluvatar's plan. Just like Sauron and Melkor did.
Feanor taking on several Balrogs in battle was from an earlier period of Tolkien's writing. He imagined them too be far weaker and more numerous at the beginning and they regularly died in battle. He changed his mind later on and they became a lot more powerful and he said there shouldn't have been more than 7.
Still impressive he could survive for a while against that many 3-7 when Ungoliant couldn’t withstand them and had to flee. Also, let’s not forget Fingon couldn’t fight even two on one.
@@christiancividino455 I’m pretty sure more than 7 went to rescue Morgoth from Ungoliant, considering Ungoliant literally battered Morgoth easily and Morgoth is way stronger than multiple Balrogs. Which makes Fingolfin fighting and wounding Morgoth 7 times far more impressive than Feanor being killed by Gothmog and a few others. No matter what, Feanor still is the weakest out of everyone in the discussion lol. It’s not stated that he killed any Balrogs either, just held against them.
@@gearzofwar123 Who says there were only a few? The (at least 7) surviving Balrogs ran for their lives when Feanor's sons caught up with them, so that's a measure of comparative strength.
After repeatedly getting shown the new trailer for rings of power as advertisement and making my blood curdle, it’s such a joy to watch something actually appreciating Tolkiens work!
That piece of crap show will be a huge shitshow for sure. I kinda knew this before the trailers, I knew they will destroy the show with piss poor casting and unforgivable changes.
"It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but ... if I must break them, I shall break my heart" lmfao I love the way you said that. Feanor is a drama queen lol. So nice to have you back Dave!! Your vids are so fun!! Can't wait for Fingolfin and the rest of your Silmarillion vids! They really help me read through it and understand nuances of the text.
I’m gonna cross the streams a bit with this comment, but the idea of being great but terrible pops up from time to time and other stories as well. If I remember correctly, Harry Potter is told something very similar when he first gets his wand. Because, of course, the twin his wand went to Voldemort.
Welcome back, mystical colors, I am eagerly excited for these 2 videos you've made, just didn't have the time to watch when they were recommended to me
I don't think burning the ships was purely out of spite. I think it was also a strategic move, as a way of telling his host that the only way back home was through Morgoth to dissuade anyone from trying to desert. Although you could arguably say this makes him even worse for how he treats his own soldiers.
When Tolkien wrote "a terrible oath" I'm pretty sure he meant "terrible" in the original sense of "inspiring terror", not in the modern sense of "bad". Much as he later did when he had Galadriel say "In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen, and I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible." Now, Feanor's Oath turned out to be terrible in both senses, but I don't think Tolkien was editorializing here; he just meant "swearing by the name of Eru Iluvatar when you're in the presence of the Valar is a thing that SHOULD terrify you." Honestly, everything bad he did before the Oath is forgivable, it wasn't until afterwards when, having sworn the Oath, he had no choice but to double down on his horribleness, that he truly went over the edge into straight-up villain territory; the best that can be said about him at that point is that he isn't as evil as Morgoth, whom he's fighting against.
About elves: If elves are immortal, how could they even understand the concept of an "inheritance?" The idea and act of inheritance is only relevant to mortal beings. If you are not going to die, it's unlikely that you would think up something like a "last will & testament." Pushed a bit, this could mean that, if you live in a place filled with immortals, you would most likely never even possess, or be able to comprehend, the concept of death.
Hi, just want to say thanks a lot for those ALL your Silmarillion videos I enjoy them a lot Im watching them for the 3rd time when I want to remind myself of the story . your the best , Thanks again :)
Feanor is the embodiment of everything that the Elves could be, and indeed would be, especially the Noldor. He was the creator of their greatest things and their worst woes. Certainly other elves are more heroic in the end and others more personally cruel, but the things they did are all aspects of Feanor. Galadriel for example didn't turn back from Middle Earth or the journey, or Finrod, or many of the others, as they all heard at least something in the speech of Feanor that lead them to go. They went on the same journey as Feanor's sons, some of whom weren't the best.
David of Many Colours! Welcome back and thanks for another great video. Astounding that Fëanor has that level of "stans" but then again, maybe it isn't. This is the internet and all.
Thinking about it - if Galadriel had given Feanor the strand of her hair maybe he would have never created the Silmarils... There is a lot of YT videos about her and her travels mostly depicting her history, but no video I've seen so far tries to explore her character ans psyche deeply. For example, how did this fact of having an opportunity to prevent all the later mess that the Silmarils caused shaped her life, her thinking and her as a person? She must have lived a long life of some kind of guilt... She also joined the rebellion, we do know that she later regretted it but adding the fact that she could've just given her hair to Feanor surely adds up to that. Also, Sauron brutally killing her brother Finrod. Other brothers killed in wars with Morgoth... All in a chain of consequences due to the Silmarils. On another note, she was supportive of a relationship between Aragorn and her granddaughter Arwen. Why is that?! Did it bring memories of her late brother Aegnor and his love for an Edain woman Andreth - the very first romance between elves and men? Who knows... There are so many little things where she was in direct or indirect contact with and her decisions shaping future that I believe are deserving of a video of her but from the angle of her as person... Just an idea ;)
A complicated character for sure, but I think you were pretty fair. Just a small thought at 29:10: is it that overdramatic when his own mother effectively commited suicide? His birth consumed her energy and passion for life, and she became so weary she chose to pass into the Halls of Mandos. Fëanor destroying his most beloved obsession, even for a noble cause, could have certainly led to an even greater depression and his own death. I also see the burning of the ships as a sign of uttermost commitment; a declaration that they cannot and will not turn back. Unfortunately, it is also an act of haste that has an unintended victim, but it foreshadows Fëanor's lack of caution after the Dagor-nuin-Giliath.
I agree on just about everything you've said here but I gotta defend two things: choosing Curufin as his favorite son and his unhealthy relationship with Finwë. The former isn't quite fair because the story of Beren and Luthien takes place long after Fëanor is dead and Curufin could have changed drastically in that time. He was probably far worse. And i think it's pretty typical for codependent relationships to be formed when a parent/partner dies early in a family relationship. If anything I blame Finwë for basically ditching his entire family just so he can be with Fëanor during his son's "exile" (I mean, c'mon dude. It's twelve years and the Valar just wanted a break from looking at his face). That was a huge slap in the face of Fingolfin and Finarfin.
not giving the jewels to restore the light of the trees and thinking the light in the jewels are his goes in the major egotistical “he’s a jerk”. The Silmarillion states he egotistically and mistakingly thought the light was his own when it wasn’t and that can’t be blamed on Morgoth
He started his existence by destroying his mother, so there's that. Not his choice, unless elven fetuses have some sort of ability to take energy and power - and life? - from their mothers, but even so. And can I just say, not to get too philosophical on you ( or maudlin at all), that everyone's loss of their mother (or father, in most cases) is a loss that no one has experienced before. Yes, other people have lost their mothers, but each loss is absolutely unique in history - every single one. And besides, fgs, he lived in VALINOR, he had ready access to Nienna for healing, to say nothing of all the other Valar and the Maiar, and he had his father (a whole nother issue, apparently). And with everything else he had going for him, which was apparently EVERYTHING, he still turned out a monster. He was far more evil than complicated, in my book. [flounce]
And yet Nienna basically did nothing to heal his mother(by which I mean it obviously didn't work) so why would he trust her, and what even says she'd be able to, again she could not heal Miriel, clearly its not a magic bullet.
I would actually file Feanor under a fourth category: too aware of his own excellence for his own or others' good. This is neither a complicated phenomenon nor an uncommon one. Tolkien would undoubtedly have run into such people in his academic life, and possibly even sooner. Whether those who display this phenomenon fall into the category of "villain" or "tragic hero" depends upon whether they desire good for others or whether they desire ill for others. It is difficult to say that he desired anything at all for others beyond their appreciation of his works *as his* works and the duty toward his people that he eventually abandoned when he believed *they* were abandoning *his* excellence. He appears to have placed far greater value on mental excellence than physical, so it would make sense that the son he considered most like himself would be the son who displays the greatest penchant for mental acrobatics. Whether that son turned his mental skill toward good for others or ill for others would not necessarily factor into this consideration. Because he was a genius and aware of his own genius, he appears to have had a tendency toward presumption. He delighted in the beauty of creation, and that beauty would hold even greater value if even his own excellence could neither create nor replicate it. He could not create or replicate the living beauty of his niece's hair, so he wanted the real thing to work with. He could not create or understand the light of the Valar, yet he felt entitled to use it as crafting material, just because he wanted to and had the skill for it. That the Silmarils were his own creation gave him possession of them and that even he could not replicate them would cause him to place even greater value on them. As such, destroying his masterwork would certainly break his heart to the point he might not want to live anymore. It's also possible that he really did use part of his own life in the Silmarils' creation, since no one else could replicate them, and Sauron also crafted his own life into the One Ring (clearly that skill was known to at least one craftsmen of the Second Age, why not to Feanor?) Feanor's distrust of Melkor is largely born out of his arrogance that he has no need of anything Melkor can give him and the fact that his own obsession with the Silmarils allow him to recognize the same in Melkor--the very reasons Melkor believed Feanor could be swayed by him and the reason Feanor eventually bought into his lies. As such, his dealings with Melkor should probably be downgraded from "Bad~ss dropping mics on the biggest Bad ever" to "Fool who considered the mightiest being in Ea no threat to himself." So, I see no indication that Feanor was a hero, but at the least, I also see no indication that he was an intentional villain until he swore his Oath. I would also point out that indications are that Feanor wanted to use the hair and would have taken full possession and credit for whatever beautiful thing he created using Galadriel's hair, while Gimli simply wanted to preserve and share the beauty of the hair (Creation) itself.
I kinda disagree with your point on him being selfish for not breaking open the light inside. If he did what’s stopping Melkor and his 8 legged big beastie from coming back and doing it all over again down the road. And the Silmarils could never be crafted again, at least having them there was still a safeguard in their back pockets that’s could be used. I’m sure if Fëanor could’ve been able to return to them before they were stolen and his father murdered he would’ve made them safe from all until they were needed in a darker time. But I do agree with the all other points 😂. Ik it’s a year old but this is a great watch you just earned a new sub.
Are you sure you're being fair to Curufin? He was a fantastic craftsman and linguist, that's why he was Fëanor's favorite. He's one of just several people who knew Khuzdul - the secret language of Dwarves, that was almost impossible to learn if Dwarves wanted to teach you in the first place. He could've killed Eol on the spot, but he didn't. He and Celegorm actually gave very reasonable advice to Finrod not to go to Tangorodrim with Beren, but he didn't listen, he raised Celebrimbor....all in all, Curufin is hardly a villain you want him to be. Also, you 'forgot' to explain why Fëanor threatened Fingolfin. He was literally talking bad things about Fëanor in Finwë 's presence and behind Fëanor's back. That's really unbecoming but you simply skipped that part.
In the grit and grime of the real world, something that Tolkien was very aware of, precious few things are all good or all bad. Particularly all good. Good actions often harm or slight someone, even if it is just someone who could have benefited, but didn't. For every starving child who is fed, there is another somewhere who could have been fed, but wasn't. For every terrorist who is killed, there is a child who lost a father. Good and bad are labels we apply to comfort ourselves. It would be more accurate to measure most things as mostly positive or mostly negative. Or even as the Taosists do as "they simply are".
Neither. He is perfect example of a "grey" character with a tragic flaw. He has both the potential to do greatness and great evil and does both in his lifetime. Unfortunately, and not unlike many people that exist in the real world, tragedy, disaster and his own high expectations caused his mental health to deteriorate and that caused him to make a handful of life altering and irreversible decisions. No matter who you are. Feanor is an example of what happens when you wander too far down the road of anger, vengeance and greed. The end of the road is always the same. Self destruction.
Withot Feanors deeds, all the stories of middle earth - heroic or sad - would not have taken place. This was noted by Manwe after the oath if I recall correctly.
Feanor is truly evil; arrogant, a selfish Elf, powerful but only for himself. He stole the light from the Trees and kept it for himself. He murdered his fellow Elves and didn't regred it. Melkor created the opposites to the things the other Valar created, bitter cold, extraordinary heat and eventually hell itself, but was bound to the will of Illuvatar, like Lucifer. Feanor had free will, and made a great mess.
Before watching: Feanor did some terrible things, but he never really was evil. He was an instrument of Fate, quite literally Doomed. That is very clear as Miriel died giving birth. That event started it all, and Feanor didn't ask for it. As Mandos foretold, he brought loads of action to the world, he sparked tons and tons of stories. On top of that he was by far the coolest character IMHO, the good, nay, great kind of edgy. Edit: after watching, I think you have been unfair to Feanor in a few of these points. These points are in fact very arbitary. Fighting the Balrogs doesn't go in "great" (while due to a poor decision, still an incredible feat) but "Curufin is his favourite", BEFORE Curufin's bad deeds, goes into "jerk"? Once again, Feanor seems to me like just Doomed and not really in control of his destiny. But I get it, the vast majority of people will have a hard time understanding him.
Villain. It's not even hard to argue. The oath that was made in the name of Eru lead to more pain than happiness. He's not the most evil elf, but he figures comfortably in the top 5. But, from tragedy comes glory. Eärendil, the blessed later attones both kindreds of their terrible deeds and shines with the Silmaril upon his brow. Without Fëanor evil still happens, maybe less so, but one can't deny the fact that his deeds and wrongs made Arda more interesting. For sure, None of the children of Illuvatar was like Fëanor. He was the most stacked stat elf to ever live. I just disagree he was the greatest in valour. Is it a stretch to say his mother has a premonition? Remember, she goes to Mandos. It's not that much of a stretch... Let's remember that she was a weaver and weavers are associated with prophecy EVEN IN THE SILMARILION. Kurufinwë was his favorite? Ah, forgot about that. Well arseholes recognize each other I suppose. I think both of them are outright dicks. Fëanor is a dick too, even this video needs to go to ridiculous lengths to do propaganda for Fëanor. If he was a good guy, it'd be simpler, wouldn't it? Nobody listened to my man Tulkas that just warned the other Valar about Melkor, the marrer of Arda... Just so we are clear: Fëanor 'he's a dick' column should have included his disdain and envy relative to his brother: Fingolfin was great. I don't like elves, but I respect a few, and Filgolfin is top 5 material. It's not a Melkor exclusive. Fëanor is a dick to him because he is a dick period. Fëanor didn't need to be corrupted by Melkor, and Melkor knew it. All the corruption was inside and just needed a push, mate. And he didn't try to resist or rethink. He just smooth sailed to beingadickland. You just undertick the dick column. I'd not put the tick on closing the door on Melkor at he is great, for he did such out of greedy love for the Silmarils. Motivation matters in actions even when actions are cool and arguably good. Besides Melkor achieved his objective anyway: made Fëanor paranoid about the Silmarils. So that's Fëanor was a chump column, deep down. So, closing the door is objectively cool, but doesn't do anything other than aesthetical pleasure, for Melkor gets to him. In such a way that later he won't share his light, like a dumbass. That's like 10 ticks in 'he's a dick' column, I'm sorry, what an effing douchebag, no need to pretzel logic this as justifiable. And the mightiest being in Tolkien's universe is Eru. Now, I have to just count all of the instances of 'he's complicated' as against him. What he did in Valinor was inexcusable at this point. Yea, the Silmarils would be made MORE CHERISHED by the obvious action. It's so obvious it ISN'T complicated. It's like having a "make everything better" button and not press it because you like the button umpressed, wtf.
So if Morgoth is the name Feanor gave to Melkor, and Elu Thingol banned the use of the Quenyan language, then why do they call him Morgoth? If Morgoth isn't Quenyan, then how did Feanor know to speak it?
Excellent question! Morgoth is indeed a Sindarin name, but it’s worth remembering that the Silmarillion is written as a history book, not as a novel. The actual name that Fëanor would have used for Melkor (if it were real) would most certainly have been in Quenya, but when Pengelodh of Gondolin constructed the Silmarillion centuries later, the Quenya name was Sindarinized into Morgoth - and that’s how it is remembered to history. Tolkien gave us a few different Quenya renderings of ‘Morgoth’, including Moringotto, Moriñgotho, and Morikotto, but he never settled on the ‘true’ one.
Galadriel giving Gimli the hair says everything about what Tolkien considers "worthy." Feanor is a genius, a great warrior, her own kin, someone whose influence on the world lasts almost 10,000 years, and none of that means shit compared to a "lowly" dwarf who humbly asks.
also the three strains. Gimly only ask for ONE and she gave him THREE. Probably for the three times she refused Feanor. I liek to think in her mind she goes "take THAT uncle!" :D
Well, when picturing feanor asking for hair strands, all I can picture is: "nephew, I require your hair"... In BBC Sherlock's demeanor... In fact, it would be epic if he played him. Yes, iron man's actor is a very good Sherlock adaptation too but his Sherlock is not arrogant enough for feanor. Not that the actor can't.
@@ismata3274 Lmfao- in my mind he approached her a bit differenty, something like : "Howdy my beutiful niece, *makes a highly poetic compliment* may I recieve from thou a string of thy golden hair?" "No" "But I-" "No" "Why won't you let me finish I'm trying to-" "Bro I said no, leave me tf alone" "Ugh, fine! Just know thou don't understandeth my genius and might and skill and *keeps praising himself till Galadriel completely leaves his range of sight* "
Welcome back. I’m not the biggest fan of Feanor beyond a couple things, but him keeping the Silmarils remind me of Christopher Tolkien making sure his father’s work is kept intact. Only a little though. And shoutout to Christopher for probably being the best son of the last century
Another thing about burning the ships is how important they were. He massacred his fellow kin for these ships and then turns around and burns them, on top of that the ships were a cultural aspect of the telleri and they were as important to the telleri as the silmarillions are to feanor and he without hesitation destroys them. Just seems exceptionally cruel and prideful
@@alpfeanor6431 Bro-?!The poor Teleri were minding their business up to that moment,they never ever bugged anyone and just fished and built boats and lived the chillest of lives. In what for them was the most random of days the light goes out (literally,cuz yk the Trees get killed and alll that mess) and they see an angry ass dude probably walking on water towards Middle Earth, while cursing everything and everyone that ever existed and will exist. Understandably they're pretty scared already, then this decked out, angry ass group of Noldor comes to them and asks them to give away the ships they've worked so hard for because "wE sWoRe We WoUlD kIlL aNyOnE tHaT sTanDs BeTwEen Us aNd sHinY rOcKs". To the Teleri, Feanor (I can't do the proper e letter thing, i'll write it wrong every time lol, i apologize) was nothing but a suicidal, egocentric, arrogant, careless and essentialy fucking delusional dude who came there with his whole ass army to "friendly" ask for their ships.The Teleri just didn't want to get in trouble with Melkor (aka the most powerful dude in the deadass universe) who had left them alone so far, nor did they want to get in trouble with the Valar (aka the other most powerful beings in the deadass universe, that also happen to have saved their asses ages prior from that same other guy they were trying not to anger) who were understandably upset by the whole situation. After the Teleri decline the offer Feanor orders his men to take out swords and kill everything that breathes essentially. And it's not even to say it was a fair battle, it was a literal massacre endured by the Teleri from Feanor's hands. Tolkien tells us how the Teleri weren't used to fight so they were armed with crappy bows, while the Noldor had: 1. Feanor himself, basically the greatest Elf ever to exist in terms of skill and iq and beauty and literally everything that doesn't include ethics. 2. The greatest craftsmen and swordsmen and fighters and weapons. I want to clarify I do not wanna hate on Feanor cuz I do like him a lot as well, the point is we can't pretend he was a saint. We are allowed to like complicated anti-heros and even reckless villains (examples that stay in the context are Melkor and Sauron, they are literal demons yet they're both fan favorites) because guess what? It's fiction! None of it is real, heck I don't care if you like a character who's a serial killer as long as it's a character and it is all fiction, i draw the line at people saying fucking Ted Bundy was missunderstood or smth, that's different cuz that's real and he killed real people. We don't have to justify ourselves liking morally gray/straight up wicked characters by glorifing/justifying their actions. We can all like Feanor but we all should be aware that he is no hero and he did bad things.
@@grassblock7668 Yes, the poor Teleri, that would not even help the Noldor to build their own boats to reach Middle-earth, and thus denying the indirect help to their brothers that were in ME with Morgoth just because they were afraid of defying the Valar. Was it a massacre tho? The book said that the battle was evenly matched until Fingon arrived and joined. As you said Feanor is anything but a saint, but in fact, nobody in the Silmarillion is a saint, except Finarfin.
@@krozas5187 He killed people for sparklies. Yes, they were 'special' sparklies, but to value them over actual living people is sheer contempt for any claims about holiness from the light of the trees or the hallowing of Varda. Otherwise they're just really pretty sparklies. Why are you invested in trying to justify that kind of behavior? Do you work for DeBeers or something?
@@krozas5187 the Teleri had no responsibility to help the Noldor and its not like it's for the greater good either. The Teleri took the Swiss route and tried to stay out of it but got attacked anyways. Feanor did not respect the Teleri at all. No one knew anything about Middle-earth at the time, for all they know the Sindair are all dead. I'm sure it they knew they would have did something but they didn't. And yes, evenly matched until Fingon showed up and tipped the scales and them resulted in a massacre.
@@girliealmighty a very well fleshed out, morally complex character. Ultimately you see where that road leads. That is what is fascinating about Feanor. All his ambition and genius can’t save himself from his lustful vengeance.
@@seanhartel5362 Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I hate characters like Feanor with a passion, be they real or imaginary. The guy is a complete asshat and one of the reasons I dislike fantasy elves in general.
4:56 I think it should be made clear that the Quenya lingusitic symbol *'Þ'* is not a P and is represented or voiced in 'English' as an S or TH. I still can't understand why the producers of the forthcoming Tolkien series on Amazon didn't think to consult with and indeed directly employ ANY of the numerous excellent RU-vid Tolkien Loregivers such as *Tolkien Untangled* - truly a missed opportunity.
Well, they had Shippey, and they kicked him to the curb because he kept challenging their mangling of the lore. Amazon - or as I like to call them nowadays Annatar - only wants shills and people who fall into line with their plans.
This was well worth the wait! Feanor was so complicated it was always a love him hate him relationship. The “He’s complicated” helped put some perspective on his character. Can’t wait for Fingolfin next week!
Precisely, which is why I don't understand why some think him a hero. Surely, he's the ultimate of all attributes, it seems, but that doesn't make one a hero.
Feanor has two modes, off and ON !!!! His on-mode is superlative, I don't think there are more "on" characters in the whole of Tolkien's works. He's the Elf that under any other circumstances would have achieved nothing but great things, but he's so intense about doing even simple things that every setback is a huge down to him, again more so than anyone else. He's the victim of his own passion, he puts his soul into his work and then Morgoth. If Morgoth had kicked Feanor's sand castle he would have brained Morgoth on the spot with a plastic beach bucket and rammed his plastic shovel into his throat. If you cross Feanor he goes the full 1000% because Feanor is in some ways a force of nature. Feanor being the most intense elf ever, his reaction is so intense it ends up causing the unthinkable. Feanor can't go half speed or crank down, it's not in his nature and because he can't and above all will not, he's punished for it. And the results are disastrous and Feanor's intensity continues to drive elves long after he died. To call him a villain is silly, though he ends up causing much harm. He's a deeply tragic figure who is victim to the evils of Morgoth. I certainly don't see him as a hero or even an anti-hero. He's the scorned guy who ends up making things worse because there is no "Hold on for a minute" setting in Feanor, it's either nothing or everything. That's why when he's angry he takes it out on all those that he suspects of the even the remotest slight and sees it as deadly betrayal. The one really fatal flaw is that Feanor simply does not have a reverse speed, it's full speed forward or nothing.
By your logic, then "we are what we were created to be" should apply to all of us, right? "Having no restraint" should apply to all. "The inability to control oneself" should apply to all. While I'm not in the "Feanor is a bad dude" club, I certainly understand those who are. We could apply your logic to real-wolrd figures who are thought "bad guys" by coddling them as "tragic", and maybe that would be true for some, but where would be the accountability?
@@valentinomiller6251 Feanor is similar to characters like Denethor. They are all great and noble figures, wise and keen, but they end up blindsiding themselves. Denethor uses the Palantir in an attempt to see something that might help him in the fight with Sauron, but his perception becomes warped. They both have a clear intention, but they lead to tragedy, not the "boohoo, I'm sad" stuff, but horrible things happening tragedy. Tolkien really tries to show us that even the mightiest and wisest cannot see all ends and can make mistakes, and the mightier they are the more consequences their actions have. Feanor is not an alien mind or mystery, he is a driven elf who acts like a bull in a china shop and his deeds cause horrible things to happen. Is he evil, in the moustache twirling sense ? No, I don't think he ever has true evil intent, but his actions do cause gruesome deaths and great sorrow, many centuries after he gets himself killed. Hence a tragic figure in every classic sense of the word or to put it more succinctly, Feanor often acted like a complete dick.
Feanor is definitely a morally gray character. Probably one of the few true gray characters, including Sméagol. Oddly enough, my favorite part of his story is his end. The fact that Morgoth felt the need to dispatch Balrogs to take out Feanor speaks to how powerful an Elf he was.
It cost Morgoth hundreds of Balrogs, leaving only seven. Had Feanor not raced ahead to prevent them escaping to Angband, the War of Wrath would have failed, even if it had happened, which it wouldn't without the Elves and Men surviving until Earendil. Also, Tolkien had to kill off Feanor, then keep him in Mandos. Had Feanor been released in the Second or Third Age, Sauron would have been mincemeat and the story would have ended early.
A grey character is not one that does good or at least great things as well as evil stuff, like Feanor did. Feanor is evil, selfish and cruel. Nothing he did even remotely redeemed his worst actions. He is important for the history Arda as a whole, but not because he made it a better place willingly. That would be like to say Hitler was not that bad because through his rash decisions the Nazis were defeated way sooner. A morally grey character does some questionable things that may have worse repercussions then anticipated, or they do something pretty bad but chose to do so to save some or many . However, they don't mass murder their own kin or leave them to die in a frozen wasteland without any benefit to even their own goals.
You have utterly failed to understand Fëanor. He is not evil. He is, however, passionate to the point of madness. The kinslaying at alqualonde was not a cold act of pure evil. He did ask for the ships first. There was an argument, and then devolved into a fight. Yes, Fëanor is an exemplar of prideful passion and it's dangers, however had he and his silmarils been left alone, he wouldn't have bothered anyone. Calling him pure evil reveals a total lack of grasp of the subject matter.
@@jacobwalsh1888 People really underestimate the power of Melkor at the height of his power. Faenor was the focus of Melkor's will. Which corrupted him somewhat and magnified his bad qualities. Even after Morgoth was banished, his will in the world was responsible for men falling to evil. When he tempts you it isn't the same as a human tempting you. His will changes reality and you really need to fight it.
@@jacobwalsh1888dude, whether he is evil or not, regards only two things: actions and motivations. Example: He slaughtered innocents to steal their ships. That he asked, might merely have been to want to preserve his own forces to better retrieve his Silmarils. Was this slaughter for the greater good, or was it to further his own selfish desires? The guy was Neutral Evil. Not "Emperor Palpatine" level, but ...he kills his own kin in order to further his own ends.
Good to see you back, Rainbow Dave, I've missed your videos. I'm not sure how I feel about Feanor. He's an unparalleled genius and craftsman (craftself? XD), but led his sons and people into peril. I've seen in someone I would loosely term a friend how unchecked genius can spiral into paranoia and madness. Melkor couldn't have picked a better elf to head the destruction of the Noldor.
Morgoth killed his father, and stole a part of his soul as well as the lifeblood of the spirit trees. I'd argue he was partially in the right, and his anger at the Valar's inaction was justified.
Boy, you have come back strong! I think Eru punished Feanor for his arrogance, lack of humility/empathy for anyone. Feanor had to lose everything before he could understand what he had. I believe he repents and helps in the last battle before all things are remade. I find it interesting that both Turin and Feanor are said to have major roles for the side of good in the Dagor Dagorath. Welcome back Dave!
@@tolkienuntangled and i recall there was a special someone or two buried below aman under the sands of this what I call a beach gif lack of better term at the moment and they were kept pristine. And they too rose up and joined the battle. This was mentioned a bit even way before Dagor Dagorath too and Galadriel’s hair is what is used to revive the two trees as it’s described in the book this mountain breaks which basically gives the light of these trees to go on full blast!! Before the battle started or partway through. Amazingness! ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
I remember when I first read the Silmarillion, Feanor became such an instant favorite of mine that when he started doing all those bad things I blamed Tolkien for writing him that way. 😅😭 He was such a like able character at first that later on, I was like, “What did you to my boi????”
@@valentinomiller6251 Well, he created the famous Feanorian Tengwar, the lamps, the Palantiri, and the Silmarils. Overall, he was a very skilled and talented craftsman, but was written to be arrogant and hot-headed. :(
@@theelevatedone2536 you've listed his achievements, but again, what has he done to be likeable? One can craft and create, but having done those deeds doesn't, as a result, make one likeable. Throughout Feanor's story, there really isn't any listed acts of kindness or heroism that makes him likeable. He's haughty, ill-tempered and irrational -- generally very UNlikeable qualities?
@@valentinomiller6251 I kind of like him already! 😂😂 I admit I don’t read a lot, so trying to re read the Lord of the Rings, eventually I’ll get to the simils~ so don’t get too hot and heavy about the comment, but he sounds interesting and I like that!
@@shawnnorton2218 No doubt he's interesting, but so are Melkor and Sauron and Glaurung lol. Almost EVERY character, except Hobbits, is interesting in Tolkien's world.
Great video! Though, I would like to notice that you saying that Feanor was just "sad" after Finwe's death is a big understatement, it is said that “His father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his own hands: and who among sons, of Elves or Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?”, so I assume his wrath for his father's death was even more of a driving force than the theft of his works. Anyway, thanks for the great video and I am looking forward to your video on Fingolfin!
Great video. Unfortunately Feanor is more a jerk than a hero, and he is indeed complicated. He's not my favorite elf, but I love learning more about him - he is fascinating.
Great discussion on a character that is created to generate discussion! I don't think all "tick marks" carry equal weight. Some deeds are much worse than others and a few are better. The kin slaying and oath making are just aweful. Unforgivable? Something to ponder perhaps!
I never understood the reasoning of the changing power level of Balrogs being a big deal because either way Fëanor fought in a battle beyond winning. Either he fought a thousand weak ones or 3-7 Maia Balrogs. It’s not like Tolkien would have went back and said Fëanor didn’t fight any Balrogs. It’s a great scene because it puts a hard limit on the Noldor advancement and attempted victory over Morgoth. Seeing their greatest though flawed die must have given the Noldor pause. And we see this happen because the Noldor focus on realm building and containing Morgoth rather than another direct assault. There’s a reason Balrogs are called an elf bane.
The biggest proof of Balrog's power level is that Morgoth calls upon them to rescue him from Ungoliant. Feanor fighting multiple Balrogs at the same time is the same feat that Fingolfin had of fighting the weakened Dark Lord alone.
I always thought that Galadriel giving Gimli her hair was frakkin hilarious, since arguably if she had given it to Feanor when he asked then he might not have made the Silmarils, and without the Silmarils much of the history of arda just wouldn't have happened or would at least been very different.
That boy wasn't unrulr because of silmarils. Its just silmarils s beauty made his heart more visible. If she had given her hair, no doubt the casing he would end up making for the holy light from those strands would be marvellous too. Who can assume people and him too won't be just as enamoured with the resulting lightcase? And the attraction of silmarils was the living light in them. And the refractions of the light in it. Thus, making the silmarils just as property of valar (most definitely at the least varda and yavanna, as it's their joint creations fruit in silmarils) as it is feanors. He had no right to refrain from giving back the light to revive the two trees back to the valie that created it in the first place. Granted, to give it back, he would have to destroy his creation. And valar saw fit that it's not a boundary that they're willing to cross, no matter the cost to all involved. Feanor didn't see fit that he should be just as respectful to property (and artistic, and to life damn it, trees were dying there! ehem.... aaanyways) rights as he was shown/given sadly. Not a fast learner in that regard.
@@ismata3274 Recall that the trees drew their sustenance from the earth, so that when the trees' roots were poisoned, they died, and their light died. Whereas the Silmarils were indestructible and regenerated light without an external power source. Feanor's work transcended the Laws of Thermodynamics, which weary even the Valar.
Fëanor is just a 'real' pinnacle / operating at the extremes character. Most of his notable works resulted in a scarred world... But some were invaluable and improved the world in ways no other character did. As an Elf he knew who he was, a fire in Arda; skilled, focused, disciplined and principled. ... And just as fire cooks food and brings light, it can be uncontrollable and destructive too.
So in a nutshell, the Valar(High Angels) fought Melkor(Satan) to free the Elves and throw Melkor(Satan) in prison Void. Then that release Melkor(Satan) 3thousand years later in Valinor(Heaven) in the middle of Elves, keep in mind elves are lesser beings compare to Valar who are divine. Manwe lets Melkor(Satan) THE STRONGEST and MOST EVIL Vala of them run free and literally do anything he wants in Valinor(Heaven), they let him even get close to the Elves, the same exact creatures he wanted to bend to his will years ago which led to a war and the reason of him being thrown in the Void Prison. HOW CAN YOU LET MELKOR AKA SATAN IN THE CITY FULL OF ELVES TO ROAM FREE AND DO AS HE PLEASES AFTER YOU JUST FOUGHT HIM YEARS AGO BECAUSE HE WAS MARRING ELVES FOR FUN? Melkor(Satan) obviously starts immediately doing Melkor things, which is perpetrating evil and corruption. Feanor an elf FALLS into his trap and lies, then goes on to threaten his half brother soon after meeting Melkor, something Feanor has never done. The Valar instead of connecting the dots since they are so wise, they instead banish Feanor the Elf and STILL LET Melkor(Satan) LIVE in Valinor(Heaven) without restrictions while there is discord all other the realm. Melkor tries Feanor again but Feanor rejects him, and this time Melkor goes to perpetrate even more evil deeds since his low IQ Valar members haven't caught up to him yet. Melkor with the help of Ungoliant DESTROYS the 2 trees of Valinor(Heaven) and also kills Finwe, Feanor's dad. After destroying the 2 lamps, that's only when Valar understand it was Melkor DOING THIS EVIL and perpetrating corruption and discord all this time. NOW, Valar wants Feanor back only because Feanor's Silmarils has light of 2 trees in them but Feanor ask them what to do about the fact that my dad was killed BY A VALA, which means Finwe was killed by one of you?The Valar tries to bamboozle him with rhetoric and words instead of going after Melkor. Feanor chooses revenge and refuses to give HIS Silmarils and everything goes downhill for him after that... Manwe and the Valar ARE NOT WISE AND EASILY THE WORST RULERS. If you look at this thing logically, Feanor was actually manipulated, but the Valar literally CREATED all this cycle of pain and death. Obviously, Feanor has his share of bad actions BUT THE SOURCE AND BEGINNING of the cycle of death starts with the VALAR NOT BEING WISE, BAD DECISIONS AND RULING, NEGLIGENCE...
Thanks! I was considering doing a video about the new trailer, but so many other people will have done the same, so I'll probably wait until September to talk about the show. However, I did think the trailer was massively better than the last one we saw, and there were a few things I liked and a few that I didn't. Generally, I thought the visuals look great. The art department seems to have done a good job, and I also like that there's a focus on songs and singing, and I suppose I could eventually come around to having Harfoots in the Second Age (although I'm not there yet). Also I was pleased to see a lot of armour that wasn't plate armour, and I am excited to see what they're going to do with the story and characters. But there are still a good number of red flags and things that seem entirely unTolkien. It frustrated me a lot that we saw the shot of the meteorite, and then the word 'Based on Tolkien's writings' flashed up immediately after. A person traveling by meteor is utterly unheard of in Tolkien's Legendarium, and it really doesn't seem to make any sense. I also didn't like the shot of Galadriel stabbing her sword into the ground. This is such a common trope in 21st century fantasy and I guess it's meant to look cool, but a sword's functionality is defined by the sharpness of its blade, and no actual sword wielder would ever intentionally damage their blade by stabbing it into stony icy ground. Its a bit of a nitpick but Tolkien's Galadriel would respect a crafted weapon much more than that. It's just another thing that screams generic rather than absolutely unique like the source material that it should at least be inspired by. Also, I have no idea what Galadriel is talking about when she says 'you've not seen what I've seen.' However, for me, the biggest problem, which makes me think the whole show can't possibly be any better than sort of okay, is the time compression. The fact that Celebrimbor and Isildur are co-existing at the same time, and the whole story is taking place in the span of one mortal's lifetime, is a horrendous creative choice, and it doesn't matter how they try to justify it, it's fundamentally wrong. By compressing 3441 years into a single lifetime they're robbing the elves of their agelessness, they're robbing Numenoreans of their complexity, and they're completely ignoring the Dark Years, where Sauron ruled southern Middle-earth for over a thousand years. I really do believe that any and all criticisms of the show will pale in significance next to to the terrible (and completely unnecessary) time compression. It strikes me as cowardly writing, and I think the showrunners have already derailed the entire project with it. I'm trying to stay hopeful, but the time compression just sounds awful to me.
@@tolkienuntangled I think whenever great value brand Galadriel states that, it then cuts to a scene of blood filled waters filled with carcasses of war. I think she was possibly referencing the first kin slaying? It still makes no logical sense for her to say that to Elrond…the third kin slaying stripped so much from him. It seems rather Un-Tolkien to have these two iconic Elven leaders to speak to each other the way they did in the trailer. Elrond has this ability of foresight, yet cannot foresee that speaking to his mother in law in such a manner will end up in his inevitable doom haha. Did you notice the possible oath of Fëanor coming to screen? There was a quick scene of a darkened night sky, filled with stars above, and what appears to be the sons of Fëanor drawing their swords and joining in. Thank you for the lengthy video this wonderful Friday, Dave. We all appreciate you and your love for Tolkien.
@@tolkienuntangled agree - the time compression is the worst. An excuse is having to hire more actors to play mortals. Really? With their budget, that shouldn't be a problem. Or, some of the actors could play multiple parts, like in the 1960s Gothic soap opera, Dark Shadows.
Another excellent video. And about one of my favourite Silmarillion elves - I cannot WAIT for the next one, Fingolfin is my all-time favourite Silmarillion characterand I'm absolutely delighted that you decided to make his character's analysis.
Awesome video, really well explained and discussed. Feanor is a fascinating character, a deeply flawed personality but undoubtedly brilliant in skill and genius. Yet for all his genius he had not wisdom or humility and near the end of his life a profound lack of empathy for anyone but himself, any other needs of anyone else were second to his own even those of his family. How great he was made, how wonderous his creations and how little he chose to become. Great video as always!👍😁😎
Had Feanor not rushed across sea and land to fight those Orcs and Balrogs, all our favourite characters would have died or never been born. Had he not made his sons swear the Oath, the Silmarils would not be in Sky, Earth and Sea. Give the creator of the Palantiri credit for foresight.
@@zoetropo1 By that reasoning, Gollum was not only right but a downright visionary and a great man, because had he not murdered his cousin, the One Ring wouldn't have been destroyed. But nobody gives him "credit for foresight", and for good reason.
Well met RD! I've missed ya my guy. Feanor was the ultimate anti-hero. Gothmog got him, but then ECTHELION smashed Gothmog. Keep up the greaT work! Also, it speaks volumes that he wanted some of Galadriels hair and she said no, but then gave Gimli 3 strands...that tells me everything about this elf.
I wonder if the crystalline housing of the silmarils wasn't in fact a piece of Fëanor's soul, considering the art of creation in Tolkien's works, as well as the comment "and I shall be slain" I am a craftsman and its only rhe pieces that hold my soul that I would say that about
"For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him." It absolutely is. The guy was a genius. Think of someone like Leonardo but turned up to 11, and ask him to destroy the masterpiece of his life, where he has put all his passion, the might of his skills and mind, and the beauty of his soul. Not gonna happen. He would rather die.
I could be wrong but I recall there was an exact passage about he had a vision of a coming darkness to Valinor which led to him wanting to creat something. It was supposed to be Galadriel’s hair to make the relic but he created the Silmarils instead, the said prophetic vision came to pass. Amazing stuff. ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Very confusing RD with respect to Amrod’s death. You mentioned a son dying at Losgar which Christopher did not included in the Silmarillion and thus 7 sons and would have become 6 . Probably better to omit this
Being too good meanwhile setting Melkor loose in the same breath he don’t mix. Like the only thing defending him is he knew the song of creation better than most and he quite possibly knew it was time to let him go as to fulfil the next part of the song. .. still though nobody is innocent in this story start to finish. The Valar aren’t perfect. All the Ainur. The Elves. Men and Dwarves!
So, because 2 elf women have opinions on Feanor as being bad, you give a complicated tick? That’s ridiculous logic. Just because somebody is skeptical of someone doesn’t mean that person who is under scrutiny should automatically receive a negative or questionable mark. That’s insanity.
Not sure if you read comments but I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on why I think the valar are at the very least guilty of extreme negligence and dereliction in duty: 1. Manwe releasing melkor, I understand the points you in the video, my counter points are that he is supposed to be the wisest of the valar but yet he has no knowledge of evil? That certainly seems to be a glaring hole in his wisdom. I also don’t believe he tried to make amends with the house of finwe and the noldor considering he is ultimately responsible for the death of finwe, the theft of the silmarils and the destruction of the two trees. I’d also argue that ignorance of evil isn’t a viable excuse for some one as powerful as manwe. Not only this but we don’t see him do anything to rectify his mistake of releasing melkor besides sending his eagles out a couple times. 2. The doom of mandos: I wholeheartedly agree that the kinslaying was utterly wrong and evil and the noldor that knowingly participated in it deserved to be punished, but there were many who didn’t participate in it or unwittingly participated and yet they were cursed all the same, but yet they never levelled any such curse on melkor who caused all of this 3. The abandonment of the elves still living In middle earth: after morgoth fled the undying lands he went to middle earth where the valar knew elves were still living, they couldn’t even give them a warning about his arrival and left them to fend for themselves. 4. Not a single valar except melkor were there to greet the awakening of men: the valar were to be supposed to be shepards to the children of illuvatar but yet they completely abandoned men to morgoth I could go on but I think I illustrated my point fairly clearly
Point 1-4: The Valar are supposed to be negligent in the affairs of middle earth. The kin slaying would have cemented the fact that they shouldn’t have allowed any elves to arrive in Valinor at all in the first place. Point 2: Mandos only doomed those who did not return physically (or repent physically) to Valinor. We know this doom did not stop Galadriel from being given passage back home after the Third Age was ended. As to Manwes wisdom… lol. I guess Tolkien wrote in that Manwe did not always commune with Illuvatar which is why he did not always make precautionary decisions. Or perhaps it was true that Melkor could repent in the moment that he chose to feign it instead. Maybe there was a true possibility of returned greatness to Melkor… 🤔
@@mrs.manrique7411 that’s the thing, they weren’t negligent, melkor is a valar, therefore I believe he should be the valars responsibility, which they shirked until the last possible moment. My point is, he doomed the noldor but didn’t issue any such doom to melkor who caused the whole thing. Even if manwe truly believed that melkor could be returned to greatness, the death of the trees, the murder of finwe and the theft of the silmarils should have left him to no doubt that melkor unrepentantly evil and he still chose to do nothing
These are good points, although I will still try and defend the Valar. 1. In regards to Manwë, if he isn't capable of understanding evil then he isn't free to have done anything differently. And if he's not free to act differently, then he can't be morally condemned. It would be like condemning a child for not performing CPR on someone. If they don't know, they don't know. 2. Those who unwittingly participated or didn't participate, had every opportunity of turning back and facing their consequences (as Finarfin did), and because the Valar are fundamentally compassionate, they would have been forgiven and allowed to return to living in peace. But many Noldor heard the Doom and then kept going anyway. That's not the Valar's fault. Also, after the war of wrath (which was only a few hundred years later - hardly anything for immortals) the ban was lifted and the exiles were allowed back. 3. That is a good point. The Valar were not particularly helpful to the dark elves of Middle-earth. But I will point out, that when people say the Valar did nothing to help them, that's entirely untrue. Melkor tried to enslave all elves, and the Valar fought a massive war to defend them. They destroyed a vast swathe of land to capture Melkor and imprison him. 3000 years later they released him, and only 500 years after that, they fought another massive war to imprison him (this time without any hope of release) and once again they destroyed a massive swathe of land in the process. I think the Valar's partial reluctance to help fight Melkor is due to the knowledge of how destructive their wars are, and how much of Middle-earth is obliterated when they do help out. 4. Again, this is true, but not really the Valar's fault. They didn't know when or where Men would awaken, and they can't be blamed for not being everywhere at once. Tolkien makes it clear that the Valar are not all knowing, so it's a bit unfair to judge them as if they were. At the end of the day they are just people (albeit with power) and although they're not perfect, they're consistently compassionate and benign. I find it strange that they're so often condemned, and yet someone like Feanor, who is neither compassionate nor benign, has so many excuses made for him.
@@tolkienuntangled firstly I’m gonna gush a bit here, you are by far my favourite Tolkien tuber, so it’s really cool to chat with you! On to the discussion now lol 1. I don’t blame manwe for freeing melkor, it was a mistake, and I don’t think it’s fair to condemn some one based on a mistake, what I take issue with is his response to the mistake, I don’t think he made much of an effort to rectify the situation, he was content sitting in valinor until earendil grovelled for their help. I don’t think he’s morally evil I just think he’s incompetent 2. I agree they could’ve turned back, I’d argue though that the noldor were more than justified in seeking recompense for melkors actions. What really bothers me about the doom is the fact that levelled it against the noldor but not melkor, it seems rather heavy handed considering the noldor are justifiably angry. 3. I agree the war for sake of the elves was the right thing to do and is a point in there favour, I’d give them a half point for the war of wrath because it took them 500 years and by that time it was far too late for many elves and men, and they only decided to help after earendil begged them to help. I can’t help but think that had Manwe made it his mission to bring Melkor to justice that so much senseless death and destruction could’ve been avoided, it feels as if Valars apathy was a needlessly cruel punishment inflicted on the noldor and anyone allied with them 4. I don’t expect them to be everywhere, or to be all knowing, but it would be rather challenging to find men when the valar themselves rarely left the undying lands and kept the vast majority of their maiar there as well, it’s doubtful that mortal men would awaken in the undying lands. To conclude I don’t think that the valar are evil just negligent and incompetent, I also have a hard time seeing them as wholly compassionate as well, simply because they were aware of the slaughter and pain that melkor was inflicting upon beleriand and chose to do nothing until begged to do so. As to Feanor I think you did an excellent job in your analysis, he’s questionable at best. Anyways, thanks again for the discussion really loved this Feanor video, maybe a video like this but on the valar would be interesting
Melkor convinced several Noldor to forge weapons and they somehow all thought that they had exclusive knowledge, like they didn't know others were also creating swords... the revelation must have been kind of awkward how well they were prepared for war the moment the Noldor chose to commit to exodus
@@Crafty_Spirit I am sure Melkor's swords had dull blades, but Fëanor perfected a blade-sharpening technique that would be used by all Elves going forward. The tips of the swords were probably rounded to.😂
