F9 Ask Me Anything Replies # 3 - Is it time for Dolby Atmos in our studios? 

On this one today !

It's a little tricky in Atmos because the Atmos Renderer must be run with a pretty big buffer size. Not too much of an issue in the box or using stems, but tracking and making Atmos decisions while recording is tricky. One way around it, is to not use the Atmos Renderer, but work to e.g. a 7.1 surround track/bus and normal amplitude panning because that can be run without latency and off the hardware I/O. Then take the 7.1 and push it through the renderer. The problem with that approach is you then have potentially 7-8 channels of audio per instrument and that doesn't lend itself well to the more mono/stereo stem approach the Renderer is more geared to. Another way is use a non-Dolby format such as Mach1 Spatial which is pure VBAP and won't change the audio at all, this will let you get a feel for the mutlichannels without committing to a spatial format. That's a whole other debate though, but my preferred workflow. Mach1 solves a lot of issues and leaves all sonic control with the engineer which is both liberating and requires more thought early in the process.

Thank you so much for adding to the conversation Patrick.. Do you think the Binaural renderer inside Cubase / Nuendo is good enough to work on headphone orientated mixes, removing the need to Logic for PC users - can PC users connect the airpods / Airpods Max to their systems ? ... Also - does Cubase / Nuendo have the same 'bed' channel restrictions as Logic ?

@@F9Audio The binaural renderer is definitely good enough to use with headphones as it is the fully featured Dolby Atmos Renderer that Steinberg licensed for use with Cubase and Nuendo. I am not quite sure what exactly you mean when you mention the bed restrictions inside of Logic Pro (Cubase/Nuendo dedicate the first 10 channels to the bed and then offer you a fully-featured spacial panner for everything you route to the bed. But I'm not sure if that is something Logic doesn't allow you to do ?) Anyway, PC users are able to use their Airpods with Cubase as long as their PC is able to connect to them via Bluetooth. Otherwise it is still possible to use different App / Plugin workarounds to send your DAW signal straight to your phone to monitor through.

Hey Patrick ... Ah - OK .. I'm coming from the blurb on the Dolby Site professionalsupport.dolby.com/s/article/Can-I-use-Cubase-to-create-Dolby-Atmos-music?language=en_US It mentions Cubase has one bed track as opposed to Nuendo with multiple ( same restrictions are talked about with Logic ) ,.. This is dated April 2022 so might well be old ... I've got both Cubase 12 and Logic latest here on the new Studio Mac coming on this week so dig in and have a look ... So glad apple didn't create any kind of stranglehold on integration as this would not be good for anyone involved

Love 'em - They alwasy shine a light on the bad bits of your mix so then you can fix it !

I think eventually this might open up, but for the moment it's a really big stumbling block - as is the technicality over the deliverables ( and LFE handling in Logic ) .. I'm on the case to try and work more on this and see where the best workflow will be

U don't need to be Certified to release a dolby-atmos mix

Have a look at this ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-jy_qqh6Gslo.html and this ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-cnX4pVrxqq0.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-r_dzbhKMKww.html

@@Sheriffvlogs Yep, you just need to satisfy the ADM requirements of the distributor now. Dolby relaxed it recently. Some record companies will require you to be Dolby certified in order to do work for them though, but DIY, it's fine.

@@Sheriffvlogs Maybe not independently, but you will certainly have to be certified if you work is going through the major labels ( at the time of publishing ) - please check all your routes and needs ... Also there are really important technical specs for Atmos that you must adhere to so always learn as much as you can

I tend to really try to keep it to a minimum - It was Kevin at Wired Masters who taught me this as in the past I've tried all sorts of ridiculous sub-grouping plots and ended up in all sorts of weird and wonderful messes ... So now apart from bass ( often because I'm writing things with more than 1 bass sound like the F9 audio demos ) and occasionally drums or Synths, I'll try and achieve everything with great sounds at source, lots of work on balances and then do as much dynamics group work on the master fader - It's the Soooooooooooooo much easier to control and make changes quickly without constantly rebalancing and re-tweaking multiple layers of dynamics ... Also I do find the attack portions can intermodulate awfully with modern drums if you have multiple compressors effectively in series and if you work for hours at a time, you don't notice until you stop and come back to it ( normally the next day ) .. The number of times in the past I would struggle, then take all the sub-grouping off to find it sounds way better should have pushed me in this direction much earlier, but like many, I read about other producers doing it and assumed this was how you get a modern sound - It's just not - you get it with hard work, great sounds and great balances - we can always pile the dynamics processing on later ... Also - most modern limiters seem to work best when you're not chomping your audio up with compressors before you hit them ... You can't beat a clipper on a group sometimes though ;)

@@F9Audio thanks again for such a quick and informative reply. Truly appreciate it!

Thank you Sam - I do actually mention this in the video but I appreciate the detail and knowledge here - To sum up ( and see if you agree with this ) - All current 2-channel playback systems for Dolby atmos ( headphones and speakers ) use a form of binaural processing to re-create the 3-dimensional sound field of the Dolby Atmos format. 'Spatial Audio' is a perfect example. For the avoidance of doubt - "Spatial Audio' is NOT Dolby Atmos, but a playback system that can tap its 3-dimensional information.

@@F9Audio Apologies, listening again I realise where you say spatial audio you're referring to Apple's processing of the Dolby Atmos ADM differently (aka Apple Spatial). I agree, be you listening to Dolby Atmos (Apple Spatial) or Dolby Atmos (Dolby Headphones) both systems are taking the objects (the bed is also processed as objects, just statically (Dolby Surround) as you discuss) and then decoding them to pcm channel-based audio for speakers or running through HRTF & Room (reverb/reflections) simulation DSP to build a 2.0 Binaural pcm for your headphones representing you listening in a room on speakers be it via Android, Apple or Microsoft device. Apple Music / Apple Spatial are approaching it using the older/traditional E-AC3-JOC (Dolby Digital+ Joint Object Coding) format, I assume because that lends itself to their Head Tracking feature, Dolby, without headtracking use the new lighter AC-4-IMS format that process all this earlier in the delivery chain. Confusingly there is also crossover where Apple Music will deliver Apple Spatail as a 2.0 binaural version to certain devices (I assume not Apple with headtracking) . Looking at it from a music production standpoint, Atmos's film origins isn't the best for music in headphones because the binaural adds reverb and filtering that is out of the control of the engineer (Dolby and Apple are changing the intent of the sound. Apple especially, because you have even less control over what is happening) is also less than ideal, especially for the engineer who might not want reverb on that kick or vocal. I've also heard ADMs being rejected where binaural is set to off. Al in all, it's quite a restrictive format sonically for the engineer imo. As for the future, if there is one, it's on headphones. Stats show there is no tangible uptake of Atmos speaker sales and those sold, generally are buyers upgrading from Dolby Surround anyway and primarily movie/tv enthusiasts not hi-fi crowd. Also most people live in an environment where only headphone playback is practical/realistic. In fact Netflix head of audio even said they've see minimal growth in Atmos speaker audience and only see 'spatial' entering the stereo playback which they say is 70% of their customers and has remained 70% since Atmos supported. I believe Dolby are using the 90s technology they bought from Lake in the 2000's. iirc $21M for the patent. They bought it because it's highly-efficent DSP (but not the best by today's standards) and runs on inexpensive chips and even software dsp. My thoughts are Dolby Atmos might well simply become a deliverable format for movies only, it's got a buzz in music, but I think ultimately the record labels will see the stats it's nearly all headphone use and begin asking themselves, why are we paying all this money to create 128 channel ADMs when nobody is listening on Atmos speaker setups. Netflix said they see spatial audios future as simply enhancing the stereo playback. ie spatialising stereo playback. Ironically this was a thing in the 90s too and is what Apple have been doing to make Stereo sound better on Apple devices long before they adopted Atmos. Likewise the Dolby Atmos laptops with only two speakers are taking the binaural headphone signal and processing as a kind of Ambiophonic/RACE Crosstalk Cancellation (also a 90's 'thing'). We'll see where it all ends up, it's the wild west in the music industry for Atmos, all I know is Apple, Tidal, Amazon etc supporting Atmos are insignificant to the numbers listening to music on RU-vid & RU-vid Music, so wherever Google goes is where I would advise going and it won't require a licence or hardware to go there either.

@@SamHocking absolutely fascinating Sam - Thank you ... I actually just popped over to the UK Gov's streaming update and Apple music was 10-20% of the active user count in 2021 so I totally agree that unless this goes mainstream in the next 5 years, it will just simply end up in Movie and TV land ( I suppose it's natural habitat )

@@F9Audio The music services streaming figures are often a little biased towards only counting and representing 'subscribed' users. Nobody subscribes to RU-vid (ok well Premium I guess, but that's not paid for in order to play and listen to a music / video). Some music videos are into billions of plays, nothing like that level exists in any subscription service. All good, but I think you're correct overall and just hold off splashing £10-20K on a dedicated and approved Atmos setup just yet.

I'm afraid not - Binarual is a possibility but the moment from vinyl would probably really skew the phase tricks used

I must correct you i'm afraid - it is certainly not anyone delivering in Atmos and I need to make this clear given the question here regarding the huge Studio investment needed to complete Amos mixes at the highest spec - You will still need lots of ducks in a line to be even considered for these playlist places - A full compliment of metadata, exacting technical delivery standards via the delivery pipeline and excellent release profiles and strategies ... Whilst this can be done independently, you will almost definitely need a human being at a distributor making sure you are in the best place for these limited slots. I do not want anyone on here to get the the impression that adding quickly prepared ATMOS mixes from Logic will suddenly increase playlist potential - that is absolutely not the case.

@@F9Audio Oh you're right, probably not direct placement, but increases the chances...

A flash in the pan as a format - it's about the 4th attempt to create an immersive format for audio ... Think of the parallel to film - how many 3d movies have you seen at the cinema recently ?

I would say it's very much related - all of this has to be dealt with using phase as it's how we position incoming sounds in out mental perception of the world .. I will investigate more and report back -

@@F9Audio The Dolby Headphones processing is I believe a Lake DSP patent from the 90s. BOSE used to licence it, then Dolby bought the patent from Lake and called it Dolby Heahpones and it's part of Dolby Access on Windows, Dolby Atmos Binaural Renderer monitoring and Android devices with Atmos-enabled. Apple Spatial is entirely different binaural and hrtf process nothing to do with Dolby, it just uses an Apple-branded dd+joc only Apple devices can play.

I totally agree with the lack of speaker positioning - this has always been the issue with surround formats and why it's almost always failed - However Atmos is the only currently deliverable format for Spatial audio and therefore it's vital for all artists and prodcuers to be aware of it as there are leg-ups available for supplying for Spatial audio ... Using binarual to simulate the 3d plane of atmos is very useful - only time will tell if it sticks but there there is a lot of money coming into this in the coming years .... I noticed televisions and soundbars are shipping with Atmos capabilities now which solves some of the home-setup issues - the effeects are nowhere near full immersive setups but it's an intersting move and one that has not happened before ... As always - time will tell