FAMILY REUNION of the WOODWINDS! Get to know their instruments, ranges + registers! 

been finding you all over small channels recently, taking the oportunity to tell you i adore your work and your channel

Hi luke!!!

Yooo Luke appeared here

Mr Pickman 😏

I would considering destroying a saxophone family in another video 😜 Nah, I’m kidding. Not kidding about not liking them… but they’re still worth learning about 😅

@@alexlamymusic what instrument do you play that you hate the saxophone so much 👀

@@vacuumlover1 I honestly don't know why 🤣 I'm a bit afraid thinking about it too much will bring up some horrible memory, so I'll carry on avoiding them!

What about the sarrusaphone?

I've played sax for 3 years and only learnt this recently but although made of brass, the saxophone is part of the woodwind family

Absolutely agree - the different instrument combinations in the woodwinds give you another huge range of colours to play with 🤗

You'll hopefully like the follow up to this episode that was released this week then! :) It focusses more on arranging for the winds.

please please please, when writing for bassoon, don't be afraid to use the high register. depending on your ensemble the high register might be the best to use on a bassoon. you can go all the wat up to c3 if you want, I think that's on the really high register, and we can easily play 4 octaves...

@@ansmaertens105 I hope you meant c4, cause c3 is definitely comfort range for the bassoon...

You’ll have to ask Claire about that. I take great steps to avoid them 😅

@@alexlamymusicpictures at an exhibition??? ravels bolero??

Honestly, I avoid Bolero too 😂 I’ve always thought it was quintessential Ravel: one instrument at a time and twice as long as it needs to be 😜

@alexlamymusic it seems you're all over the comment section with saxophone hate, it's kind of embarrassing considering it's a beautiful instrument.

@@3dmartini533 you said it 😬 I didn’t lol.. he also won’t say what instrument he plays

She is a wonder presenter! I second your statement!

🙈 thanks folks! 😁

We have more on the way for you!

@@alexlamymusic Cool ! Maybe Mr Harvey playing some crazy flutter multiphonics on the contrabass clarinet, let's hope...

@@JulienTabaraniComposer in a very roundabout way, you’re actually not far off the mark!

As a bassoonist, I have used the same process to learn more about writing for strings. I have to say that my attempts at learning the cello have not been as productive. 😅

Dont worry about breathing or fingerings, good woodwind players will figure it out and sound good

Ultimate respect for anyone who takes up the bassoon 🙌🙌 and @ianwheeler5756 I agree to an extent, but it's still frustrating turning up at a session and seeing woodwind parts that are written as though we don't have to breathe! A lot of chat about needing oxygen tanks tends to follow...

Swan Lake is a stunning oboe part! So well written , it just sings across the orchestra

I loved playing that part! Such a beautiful piece

As a sax player, I would really like to know what kind of saxophone you play

@@Hydro1278 bass clarinet 😒 No, but for real. I don’t play saxophone, but I think it’s fair to include them.

@@Hydro1278 also, fun fact for those who confuse my instrument with a saxophone: The first modern bass clarinet was invented by Adolph sax in 1838. The saxophone followed in the late 1840s.

Sue Francher would agree with you - There's still a lot of snobbery involved unfortunately.

I’ve actually never heard of a Db Bass Clarinet, only the Eb Alto, so this is good info!

@@alexlamymusic To be clear, it's still a Bb instrument (playing a written C sounds as Bb), it's just missing those few lowest notes.

This is also news to me, thanks for that!

Actually, That is a Db concert. The player's lower note is a Eb. Unless, they have one of the newer instruments that add the D, Db, and C (in pitch of Bb) so the instrument matches the Bassoon's and Cellos lowest notes.

Dutifully noted (not)

😂😂 justice for bass clarinettists 🙌 can't imagine it's much fun having 4 beats to swap instrument & start playing on a dry reed either !

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Thanks so much! 😊

They sound better silent, so we left it that way 😅

@alexlamymusic Is your only experience with saxophones from highschool?

@@beesee8728 no, I was too much of a metal-head to notice anything except guitars. Why, are they somehow worse in high school? 😨

I actually used to play saxophone in my school orchestra ! 😅 but we had 1 violin and 3 drumkits so it may not have been representative of a pro orchestra 🤔

​@@alexlamymusic most people get their bad impressions of the saxophone from highschool, where they can be quite bad. However people who are half decent at the saxophone add quite a bit to the ensembles they're in. Try looking up arno bornkomp to hear some good classical saxophone

Sweet! What sort of ensemble was that for, concert band?

🙏🙌 I've always wanted to have a go at the tenor sax! Such a sultry sound, I love it 😎

Me too, love those reedy sounds!

😊🙏

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Me too! 🥳

🤞🤞🤞

This is super cool!

That's awesome! Have you dug into the reed-making side of things at all?! That's something I've always found fascinating about pro double reed players - the job is half being great at your instrument, half arts&crafts 😂

🙌🙏

The numbering system we use is the one for MIDI. We usually say "MIDI C3" (which is middle C in MIDI). It's a pain, honestly... thinking in both systems is annoying. But the way instruments are programmed, and DAWs work uses the MIDI format for numbering pitches, and there are no resources out there for this, so we committed to making some!

I was confused by that too. Apparently DAWs can usually be customised to show middle C as either C4 or C3. The MIDI standard doesn't actually specify which C it is, just that it's a C, and two systems for interpreting note values into pitches were developed. Also I found this: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-m5uTOU6Hojg.html

@@JScaranoMusic True, initially Yamaha and Roland couldn't agree on it, and we're here talking about it 40 years later! But the default setting is to display C3, and so if we change it then we also have to specify that to anyone who is more familiar with a DAW than a score. One way or the other, half of the audience complain!

@@alexlamymusic the default in what? Every piece of music software I've used, right back to Finale and Cubase and MusicWorks in the '90s, have used used C4 as middle C by default. Also the MIDI standard _doesn't_ specify. It just says note 60 is a C, but which octave that C is in is up to how the MIDI data is interpreted by whatever program is rendering that MIDI data into sound. I don't think "half" is anywhere near accurate. I'd be very surprised if less than 90% of your audience agreed on middle C = C4. Teaching that there are two systems and how they came about is actually really interesting, and it's fine to use C3 as middle C if you clarify, which you did, but it's inaccurate to say C3 = middle C by default, unless you're referencing a specific piece of software where that happens to be the default.

@@JScaranoMusic it’s the default in Logic and Cubase, Kontakt, SINE Player etc. I can’t recall a time seeing the scientific numbering system in the last 20 years other than in Vienna Symphonic Library instruments and notation software. Default means you have to change it from ‘Middle C Displays as C3’. I think I mentioned in another comment, if I put C3 in a file name and auto-map it in a sampler, it will go to midi note 60.

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The saxophone love is strong 🥰 noted!

Love that piece ! 😊

apparently classical music is everything written before 1840

Did somebody post this video in a saxophone forum? 😅

😂 heckelphone got a mention as it's an auxiliary of the oboe family, whereas saxophones are kind of their own thing - but I don't think it would necessarily be accurate for a "basics of the ww section" video to say there were 5 woodwind families, one of which is saxophone. It definitely deserves an honourable mention but it's still reasonably rare in classical rep, whereas the other 4 families are almost always represented! Still it's good to know the saxophone community is thriving 🎷💪😂

@@clairewritesmusic It's reasonably rare in classical ORCHESTRA rep but it's essential in wind band music. Imagine Lincolnshire Posy with no saxophones.

@@facemashif we make a wind band video then we’ll be sure to include it 🤓 Wouldn’t hold your breath for that one though!

🙂🙏

The recorder family is definitely under appreciated :)

Yes I've actually never got why recorder isn't a transposing instrument! When I've occasionally had to double on treble recorder in West end shows, the part is actually written as a transposing instrument in the flute pad, so that the fingers correspond to flute fingerings ! 🤯

Really great to read this, it’s exactly why we wanted to make videos like this one, so that they’ll be useful resources for years to come :) Don’t be disheartened though. Things go in and out vogue. Orchestral Woodwinds in film scores we’re even rarer 10 years ago! And I quite like that we get a lot of low-winds in use these days, Contrabass Clarinets and Contrabassoons, Bass Flutes and Alto flutes and so on. It’s not the same type of orchestral writing as John Williams, but as much of JW fan as I am (and I really am!) I don’t think other composers need to be writing symphonic scores these days. There’s a very big scope to what you can do with a film score, and calling upon a more traditional orchestral sound can be done with good intention rather than just being the ‘default’ palette of a film score.

👀 we shall see!

@@clairewritesmusic Actualy I've subscibed to you channel

Hi Fred, the convention we use is based on standard MIDI. By default, most programs use the Yamaha numbering for standard midi, which has Middle C as C3 (note number 60). So in a DAW or in the majority of samplers, that Bosendorfer would be C-1 to C7. The scientific system is the one we're all used to when looking at a score, and is an octave above. It's genuinely a bit annoying, but as the channel is making videos focussed around using virtual instruments we went with the MIDI numbering that people will usually see when programming parts in. A lot of people won't out there won't be instrumentalists or even read music, so these resources are aimed at anyone learning this for the first time, and it's easier to make it clear in the few 'range and register' videos we make by mentioning "MIDI C3, MIDI D4" etc. rather than to use the scientific system and have to address the note numbering issue in every other video.

@@alexlamymusic I see. Thanks for the clarification. So it sounds like MIDI (which is surely much more recent than the "scientific" one?) invented their own numbering system, not caring that it conflicts with the previously established system? And now, to avoid confusion, everyone has to remember to specify which system is being used to name a musical note. Thanks, MIDI! IMHO, any system that needs negative subscripts for the lowest few notes on a standard piano, is a stupid choice.

Addendum: I definitely don't mean to say that I think your choice is stupid, but that MIDI/Yamaha's was. You made a perfectly logical choice based on what you're given to work with, which follows from all the reasons you give. Just wanted to clarify that.

@@ffggddss No worries, I understand! I'm not sure what lead to the decision but I'm assuming there was something logical, as initially around the creation of MIDI Yamaha used C3 for note 60, and Roland used C4. MIDI is based on a system of 128 bits (0-127), so there are 128 available note numbers, and either system would make use of minus numbers, C-2 for Yamaha (going up to G8), C-1 for Roland (going up to G9). Weirdly the minus numbers are kind of useful and logical for programming keyswitches that change articulations. You can still use the Roland system in a DAW, but it's not the default, so people don't really use it. Personally, I don't think it's something that comes up ever, until we make a video like this! The only other situation is where somebody might be talking to a player about a note (from their MIDI), but there's always relative reference on the player's score, (e.g. D on the staff, D below the staff, above and below middle C etc.). It's interesting seeing from this video and the other similar ones on the channel is that it's something that anyone who deals with MIDI on a regular basis doesn't bat an eye at. But musicians, for whom MIDI isn't really relevant, seem to have a harder time accepting that there are two ways of doing things co-existing. That's also not a criticism in any way either, it's also natural that learning about MIDI after always dealing with the scientific system would just be kind of annoying! 😅

I’d generally agree with that advice, but the thing to do would be to ask the orchestra or the player you’re writing for. If you’re doing something where there isn’t another option, and maybe one piece or movement is on a bassoon and another on contrabassoon, then I don’t see the problem. As far as recording goes, the bassoonists will probably be asking to double 😉 💷 There are very few practical problems with it in a recording session beyond the extra cost. You can stop and drop in for instrument changes, or do them at other parts of a session, or as overdubs, or any way you like.

Haha yes very true about session players being more than happy to double 🤑 and it does happen in orchestra rep (currently touring the Rite of Spring in which the 4th bassoon doubles contra!) but you're absolutely right that it's not as easy as doubling flute/picc for example, and it's more common for contra to be left to a specialist player. I'd never heard of the contra forte, I'll have to look that up! 😊

You have my condolences. (I'm a clarinetist/saxophonist, so I feel your pain.)

Oof that's a lot of swapping ! What was the repertoire ?! Surely not all in one piece?

@@clairewritesmusic The only piece I used the soprano sax on was _Perthshire Majesty_ by Samuel Hazo. The biggest challenge was carrying all my stuff onto and off of the stage.

@@pukalo 😂 yeah that sounds like 3 trips worth of kit to me!

@@pukalo And the second biggest challenge is playing in tune when you pick up a cold horn. Presumably you had time to at least blow some warm air through them before you had to play.

Interesting, I didn't know alto clari was so common in concert band!

The A clarinet is an orchestral instrument. The basset horn is very rarely seen or heard. Contrabassoon is found more often in orchestras than bands.

@jpsned I am aware, but they still aren't too common. I think the contra bassoon is the most common of those.

@@Eniral441 I would agree with you. I think you'll find A clarinet most commonly in opera orchestras as opposed to standard orchestras.

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Part of the family, maybe. But part of the orchestra?

@@alexlamymusic not maybe, Sax IS a woodwind instrument, there are several classical compositions for saxophone including opere by Rossini, saxes can replace the string section. the recorder(flauto dolce) is also missing in this video. there are orchestras in England for example of only flutes, the same thing in Japan but of sax

@@phantomtop recorders are not standard orchestral instruments… this is a video on the basics of the woodwinds in the standard orchestra. Why would we include anything about Saxophone only ensembles?

​@@alexlamymusic In Italy, England and France the recorder is a standard in the orchestra of Baroque and operatic music. The sax orchestra in Japan is just one example. The saxophone is used in the opere of Rossini and Georges Bizet, Camille Saint-Sains, Maurice Ravel, George Gershwin, Igor Stravinsky, Heitor Villa-Lobos, Bela Bartok, Dimitri Shostakovich, Darius Milhaud, Sergei Prokofiev, Nino Rota, Ennio Morricone, Arnold Schoenberg, Pierre Boulez, Luciano Berio, Carl Orff, Leonard Bernstein, Luigi Nono; Goffredo Petrassi etc etc etc. In Italy the Sax is present in various orchestras. Saxes can replace the string section. In my country the sax is common in the orchestra, maybe not in other countries

Excuse my ignorance but what is glut?!

Keep an eye out for future episodes 😉

Yeah woodwind instruments dont project well in their lower registers

Yes I believe Alex has got it covered in the most recent episode!

@@clairewritesmusic No, he hasn't. He very briefly glosses over orchestral balance with the flute, but his video is all about register quality, the advantages of the tone colors of each woodwind section, lyrical qualities, doubling with other sections of the orchestra, and woodwinds playing amongst themselves. It's a great video, but dynamic balance with the other orchestral sections in particular is pretty much not discussed. Things like the ease with which bassoons and especially English horns and alto flutes are made inaudible, the tendency of a loud piccolo to pierce through even a fortissimo tutti, the effect of suddenly masking a wind line with the addition of a string or brass line in the same register, etc. are major qualities that I've found critically important aspects of orchestration, and I'd love to hear about other composers' experiences in this regard.

@@MiloDCwe briefly touch on this issue in the first video on the channel, but it’s more in context to getting a realistic balance when programming. The truth is there’s a lot to cover, and we’re getting through the basics before doing more advanced topics. A more advanced general orchestration video might be the place to go through some of the things you’ve mentioned 👍🏻

We use MIDI note numbers. Middle C is C3 in standard MIDI

Middle C is MIDI Note Number 60. This can be C3 or C4, or even C2 or C5. There is no defined standard or convention. The MIDI standard only says that the note number 60 is a C, it does not say of which octave. C4 should have been used for middle c here.

@@Kargbo-Reffell_Musicannoyingly there is a convention that 60 is middle C. If I build an instrument in Kontakt and label a sample ‘C3’, it will map to 60. When I press middle C down, in the piano roll of any DAW, and even in the main display at the top of Logic, you’ll see the note come up as C3.

Yeah have to second Alex here, I think the majority of people watching these videos will be composing in a DAW so it made sense to correspond with that!

@@alexlamymusicthis video is about acoustic instruments, I don’t really see why anyone would believe a midi numbering convention should trump a system real musicians actually use. There are only two of these, scientific pitch notation (middle C=C4) and Helmholtz (C=C2, c=C3, c’= middle C). I have a masters degree in music theory and composition, before anyone quips I don’t know what I’m talking about.

If I as* a composer...

Ah good timing then! Hope this helped 🙂

Same in Germany

How about Italian? Fagotti

@@MrStoshb Yeah we probably got it from Italian 😀 Wonder if bassoon is French?

😂 yes that reminds me of my school orchestra - about 13 flutes, 1 violin and a drumkit 👀

Now with the AI, one of Optimus could volunteer if you call in sick. Everybody has a robot or a portion or share. If you teach a robot you build the cloud.

For the greater good 😉

The reason is cause the saxophone was invented late in the classical music era, and it interesting key also didn't cause it to catch on. And for the Euphonium and they too were invented late and barely used in orchestral.

​@@zahidmorales5334 This is just blatantly wrong. The saxophone was only invented 13 years after Beethoven died. It was due to rival French instrument makers that feared that the outranking caliber of Sax's instruments would put them out of business, so they amassed, pooled their money, and drowned Sax in baseless litigations that left him destitute. They were also originally in the keys of C and F, very basic. The Bb and Eb versions were for military bands. It was their prominence and mainstay in those military bands that evolved into the concert bands and wind ensembles today as to why the Bb and Eb models took prominence. Also Bb and Eb weren't that crazy of transposing instruments by the time that the saxophone was invented A, D, Bb, and Eb were common to see even before Beethoven's time. Also Sax was one of the first to prototype what would become the euphonium with his saxhorn so it also fell into the sad fate that the saxophone did.

@@jacobbass6437 And Adolf Sax also invented the Bass Clarinet, which the composer introduced in this video. Only a few know, but the bass clarinet has a broader register than she mentioned. Actually, Josef Horak, Paganini of clarinet, could play four and a half octaves.

@@marienbad sax didn’t invent the bass clarinet. He invented the contrabass though. Sax redesigned the bass clarinet and his design save for a couple of added lower notes is essentially what we use today.

4 octaves only if they have a low C extension which most high schoolers don’t have

@@vacuumlover1 I said that they were able to play it, not that they had one. Idk my school had them. And most college and professional players will play on a low c bass clarinet.

@@tymiller176 most high schools in America can’t afford, or will not purchase low c basses. A lot of high schools will go for the Leblanc L7168, or selmer 1430lp. I was lucky enough to start out on an allora low C my highschool career in 2009 after playing on a selmer 1430lp in middle school.

Thanks for the added info - could you clarify what the four octave range would be? I actually ran the range we used on this past a pro bass clarinettist and they said this was reasonable as a "playable range" - that's of course not to say it couldn't be larger, but that this was a good guideline for composers! But happy to hear your take on it, thanks :)

@@clairewritesmusic There isn't "much" reason to use a bass clarinet's highest register unless one is composing specifically for bass clarinet. It's not common to use our Bb3 -Bb4 range outside of clarinet or wind ensemble specific pieces. I was only stating that our range *can* be 4 octaves without much effort. But almost all pieces will be in that 3 octave range. And most will be in our bottom two octaves.

Our graphics are all custom made by Michael Logar, who does great work on every episode!

@@alexlamymusicOK. Thank you!

The flute was originally a wooden instrument, it was only in the mid-1800s that it started to be made from metal - so it's a woodwind in spirit! And yes the clarinet & sax are very closely related - it was missed out as we're focusing on the core orchestral woodwind sections :)

Flute, Oboe, Clarinet, Bassoon and French Horn. But French Horn is actually a member of the brass family, it just makes a special guest appearance for wind quintets!

We go into the wind quintet at the end of the follow up video to this, if you’re interested :)

@@alexlamymusic I just saw that, and at the beginning of the video too.

They're called "wind quintets"as opposed to "woodwind quintets" because of the horn.

Excellent way to insult all bassoonists and oboists in one go 😅

Oboes & bassoons are both part of the double reed family, but bassoons aren't in the oboe family or vice versa. If you see what I mean!

A bassoonist here, if I had a dollar for every time someone has thought it is an oboe or asked me how long I've played the oboe... And then there are the people who ask me "what is that thing?"

Mea culpa

I’d recommend checking out videos by The Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment for those French vs. German comparisons, they do it far better than we ever could.

Yeah, I think if you have relative pitch it's not such a problem, but if you have perfect pitch it can be confusing! I've been playing a lot of alto flute lately (which is in G), and that definitely messes with my brain a bit! But wouldn't let it put you off learning a transposing instrument, it's just a little extra work out for your brain 💪💪

@clairewritesmusic thanks for the reply. I see I put the Bb the wrong way around Bd! As a dyslexic I do things like that all the time. Maybe because I'm dyslexic the transposing thing confuses me more than average? The fact that playing a G instrument messed with your brain worried me a bit?? I don't have perfect pitch. I've played piano now for a few years or so. I thought being dyslexic it could be a real problem, using left and right hands and reading two clefs at the same time, but it's been surprisingly okay. Also tried violin for a few years, but stopped playing just before Lockdown, and keep going on piano teaching myself. I'd like to play another instrument beside piano. I was thinking of clarinet, but it being transposing does put me off. I might just give it ago, I like the sound, that's important. Thanks for your video I learnt a lot and then watched the one on Brass and then strings!👍🎵

@@sandrafrancis3631 you should absolutely give the clarinet a go, it's a gorgeous instrument & it's got the best of all worlds - soft & mellow when it wants to be, or bold & razzy! I honestly don't think the transposing thing will be an issue at all - and when I say it messed with my brain on alto flute, I just mean that I had to put in a little extra effort as I have perfect pitch, so the pitch I'm expecting isn't the pitch that comes out. But definitely don't let it put you off!

@clairewritesmusic thanks! Perfect pitch 👌! I use to think that was a gift! Now I know more about music, I'm not so sure!? As I'm sure you know. 👍

Yes, I've only known of them being used for kids who want to learn bassoon but aren't big enough to have a full size one! But I'm sure they're utilised in some rep, do you know of any?

They couldn't make it to the reunion this time, maybe next year !

@@clairewritesmusic 😆 Poor Saxaphones.🎷

Although saxophones sometimes appear in orchestral parts, they're not considered to be part of the traditional orchestral woodwind section.

@@jpsned That doesn't change the fact that a Saxaphone is a woodwind instrument.

@@MrDagonFire No, it doesn't. The main reason saxophone is not part of the traditional orchestral woodwind section is that it was invented about 1841, after most of the great classical composers had come and gone.

Any others we missed out? 🤓

Incidentally, and sort of sadly, it doesn't look like anyone has ever sampled a Surrusophone.

​@@alexlamymusic time for the release of Berlin Sarrusophones

@@clairewritesmusic All 9 different keys of them! The library we never knew we needed 🤓

The numbering here is using the standard MIDI system of Middle C = C3. So we do get -1's for the lowest registers. It's frustrating for musicians, but it's better to use this system as the focus of the channel is programming virtual orchestrations with sampled instruments, and that's what you're going to see in a DAW as default.

@@alexlamymusicthank

We'll cover it in a percussion episode 😜

@@alexlamymusic Why are you obsessed? You're not funny.

@@sakonhon who hurts Sax players to make them like this? 😅 Have a quick glance at other videos on the channel 👍🏻

⁠@@alexlamymusicLike what? Sick of tired clichés? You also seem desperate to get some point across. But I’m afraid it’s totally lost.

@@sakonhon I’m not trying to make any point, and there is no cliché for saxophones. Saxophones are in less than 5% of orchestral music, this is a channel making videos about virtual instruments, and this video focuses on the standard woodwind section. Why would anyone think the saxophone would be included? I’m not desperate to do anything - I made this video, and I’m the host of most of the other videos on this channel. All we’re doing is providing a resource on this subject. I’m sorry that a bit of humour has touched a nerve.

Extremely unlikely to find that in an orchestra. Maybe in concert band?

@@alexlamymusic Nope, not in concert band either. Eb flutes may have been made at one time, but none are played today.

We use standard midi as a basis for pitch numbering where middle C = C3 by default. Lots of other comments answered about this too.

You might like the follow up video to this 😊

Think that's one of those solos that's terrifying but also on most bassoonists' bucket lists!

Any good examples you can point us towards?

​@alexlamymusic Alfred Reed used it somewhat often, in say Armenian Dances or Russian Christmas Music. I have also seen many Japanese works featuring it, such as Daisuke Shimizu's Sea of Wisdom or Itaru Sakai's Seventh Night of July.

@@nou6990 Nice, thank you, I'll look these up!

@@alexlamymusic older works and arrangements seem more likely to include it. Off the top of my head, Vaughan Williams’ Folk Song Suite, the original Boosey & Hawkes transcriptions of Mars and Jupiter, Paynter’s arrangement of Little Suite for Brass.

@@nou6990 yes, Japanese composers aren’t so shy about using alto flutes either!

We intentionally left out the saxophones 😊