To those commenting to use Green Loctite Sleeve Compound, you've clearly never had to try and take apart an engine that has dry sleeves and sleeve retainer compound. The next poor sap trying to do an overhaul who doesn't know the history almost always ends up ruining the block. I've seen it numerous times in the machine shop. The only ones that were saved were the ones where people gave up and we bored out the sleeves in our boring bar. Tens of thousands of Perkins and Waukesha diesels were built with slip fit dry sleeves. All 71 series Detroit's were built with slip fit sleeves, the only thing that holds them in is the head gasket and Cylinder head. Assuredly, new sleeves and pistons will be of lower quality than you have now. All this points to inspecting the counterbore as best you can for damage, inspecting the liner flange for damage, check protrusion, bolt it together with a new gasket and it'll outlive ALL OF US.
Spot on, Never and I mean Never put retaining compound on a sleeve. In an engine that has ran for a long time they seem to stick themselves in the block all on thier own.
@lukestrasser - This comment sums up the exact place I'm at with this dilemma - my trust in the quality of new parts is quite shaky anymore, so it truly is a roll of the dice whether you're going to go even further backwards by trying for "new" as opposed to sticking with known quality parts, albeit with wear.
If you were putting this back together for a customer then by all means dig in and do your very best to rectify the problem. With that being said, you have a great knowledge and a wealth of experience. Knowing the existing problem would put me in a better place and I believe that all will be fine until it isn't. Catch 22 for sure!!!
Your instincts are right on. Do the complete inspection and if there’s no damage, use the correct gasket and bolt her back together. She will be fine and last another 30 years.
I think you got the best plan. If everything checks out re-assemble it with the good Fel-Pro head gasket. I never would have guessed the sleeve was moving up and down. A person would assume the new gasket would be good quality.
Youza..😳 I didn't see this coming.. Thinking back to what i remember in the IH manual in the section about installing the sleeves, IIRC doesn't it say the sleeves should should slide into the block with little to no effort and if they are more of a press fit you are to freeze the sleeve to aid installation. If the sleeve isn't damaged in any way, I'd probably clean everything up and put it back together with the correct head gasket and run it. Especially seeing that this is more of a parade queen that exercises a couple times a year. Versus a work it's guts out everyday king of the farm... Great video and glad you found the issue!
Oh dear, making Christine look like a real sweetheart. at least you know what the problem is. Don't forget to apologize to the machine shop for doubting their work on the head.
We all make mistakes and in this case, I never heard of a loose liner on a rebuilt done by a quality person. No apology necessary, if Squatch had done that head he would have though he made a mistake and he has shown us more than one. Its part of that type work.
X231 is just a scared tractor that has been beaten to death over and over again. As Toby said in the episode about her having the wrong pedestal, those boys that were on that farm could break an anvil with a rubber mallet if you let them. She is unique which means that they didn't have a parts list for her and she was abused and broken beyond reasonable repair. The only reason why she is being restored is because she is one of a kind.
I have spent a lot of time repairing machine shop mistakes for work paid in cash at retail.Only once did I have them re-do something.They had installed an oil ring upside down.Had to pull the engine of course and they asked for another $150.00 for labor, which I paid.I'd say I won't ever be apologizing to a MS for anything.
50 yrs ago or so I did a fresh ring and valve lapp job on a honda 305 scrambler MC for a friend. Reassembled with new head gasket. Ran fine, but had an annoying tick in the upper head area that wasn't there before the work. Disassembled again to see what the deal was. Turned out as here it was a problem with the new head gasket. Only just the opposite. The new head gasket overlapped the cylinder bore just enough to allow the piston to hit it. Got a new gasket that fit correctly no tick.
If liner height is good I would reassemble. Being in this business for 40 years I just don't trust the parts anymore. Very poor quality. I really thought it was the valve seat. Good call.
@maxpuppy96 Even a lot of OEM any more is questionable. Companies are a lot more willing to change supplier contracts at the drop of a hat than they used to be, it seems.
Doesn't seem like a sleeve should move that easy, but if it were me, I'd put the felpro head gasket on it and let it ride. A tractor that pretty isnt gonna do much work the rest of it life anyways.
So true. For my brother, i keep stocking NOS parts where possible. Where it's unobtanium, it's bite the bullet and get them custom made. Several places in Poland, Germany and Italy where they still make good parts if you're willing to pay the cost of "custom" parts. Like even last year, on this theme, i bought a few gaskets from Cat. All garbage. Utter freaking garbage that didn't even fit the bolt pattern properly. Same part number as the previous order, triplicate check with the local dealer, even had a talk with Cat Europe. Just garbage. C-suite isn't out to build anymore, they're all in it for the grift. Trust fund babies and all other manner of creatures, they suckle up the economies of the world and ruin lives left and right.
Bolt the new gasket on and move to the next project. If the sleeve starts moving in a few years you know what the problem is. In the meantime start scouring the swap meets for new good branded sleeves and pistons. I bet the sleeve grows into place on its own and it never comes apart again.
My cousin had a 706 diesel with dry sleeves. The sleeves slid down in his motor after an overhaul the connecting rod hit the sleeve and destroyed it. He had to completely rebuild the engine again. As long as the sleeve is not cracked around the top I would not worry about it. The engine will never run long enough in our lifetime to ever give a problem.
I don't think that's the problem. He just ran into an issue that the no name head gasket didn't address. I like Fel-Pro head gaskets because I believe Fel-Pro does its research. What Toby ran into here is not at all uncommon in dry sleeved tractor engines. Fel-Pro has its head gaskets cover over the edge of the sleeves and that holds them down. As the sleeves heat up, they expand and fit tighter in the block. On the other hand. My 89 Ford Escort had a reputation for blowing head gaskets. Fel-Pro designed these head gaskets to have the seal ring pulled back slightly from the edges of the cylinders so that the pistons could have clearance from the head gasket. The original factory gaskets were so close that the pistons were able to touch the gasket and damage the fire ring.
I would bring that cylinder up to TDC. Pull the cylinder sleeve up as far as you can without pulling it off of the rings. Slather it good with loctite sleeve retaining compound and send it home. The loctite with the right head gasket will make it a non-problem.
Ive been building engines for 50 years, some people call me rough, if its a dry sleeve and you are not going to be doing power runs, just pulling a hay wagon for hay rides, id put it back together. Thhe main problem is heat transfer between the sleeve and the block. Just my opinion... Good video mate, watching from AUS.
I ran into a similar situation where the block had loose counter bores and was declared "junk" as the custom oversized sleeves would be too costly for a "proper" repair. So since they were dry fit sleeves, I chucked the sleeves that were loose up in the lathe, and put a very slight knurl on the OD at the top and bottom of the sleeves to give them just enough of an interference fit that you couldn't toss them from across the shop to install them. Strange how that "junk" block is still in service 20 years later with over 7,000 hours on it don't you think?
Have you considered: 1) remove the sleeve 2) Make a mandrel on your lathe to hold it 3) Lightly knurl about 1/2 inch near the top of it Knurling has been used for decades to 'take up slop' in a press-fit
Great suggestion here! Im not a huge fan of Loctite because that is not how they were assembled back in the day, but a light knurl to gain a few thou may be all it needs to hold it in. Id honestly check them all as long as its apart. Then put the known correct Felpro gasket on, button it up, and run it.
The only thing about knurling the sleeve is that it would have to be set up in a way that would keep it from flexing while it is being knurled. I saw a man split a sleeve when he squeezed it a little too hard.
@@danielbutler578 True, but using a 6 jaw with soft pads with the jaws flipped around it wouldnt be an issue. Hold the work from the inside out. Doesnt take alot to put a light knurl on something.
I worked in a Diesel engine plant it is no longer in business, we had contract with military ,I was an electrician on 3rd in there . They could make 125 to 200 blocks,ie: complete rotating assemblies; in a 24 hour shift. We got our sleaves from China, [ we used to make them in house] The Chinese ones used to blow up in the dyno test frequently [ If we had no breakdowns } I wrote last paragraph to confirm I have engine knowledge, had electrical license 33 years , electronics certificate program, 9 -16 week semesters, { no classes in the pursuits of CHIEF BLACKHAWK and the Americanizing of the Indians . ** Oh on the knurling tool ; it has a rotating head to select the knurl profile, attended a vocational high school that taught students a skilled craft. No longer a vocational school early/mid seventy's. My jab at school system in Chicago for getting rid of these schools. 2.nd jab at US government for sending boat loads of our industry to China. What are we now ,a narcotic dumping ground, border jumper paradise ,were if you dare, you will get a Presidential Master card, a stay in a luxury Ho' Tell", and if your savvy enough, be collecting American SSI after two months. Shit ,I'm 66 in two months still got 8 months to go for that one. I like the tractor video, but the USA went way way down....
Holy Crap, The good old "process of elimination". I do not think anybody could have diagnose that any better than you did. And I agree with you even the name brand parts are starting to be crap. Great Work
So nice to hear a person talk about what they are finding with the obvious evidence he knows exactly what he is talking about . That engine is in good hands.
Personally, I’d put liners in all four. And I’d definitely check the counter bores out for cracking like you already mentioned. I’d also re ring it while I was there. For piece of mind. I know it’s a pain chasing down issues on a completed project, but it’s very interesting, and we’re learning right along with you. I’m interested in what you find.
Thanks again for the update Toby! Wow! That was an unexpected clarification on what the cause of the knock was. Well knowing that you gave a good new head gasket, not a ton of hours on the rebuild and if everything checks out I’d put the new head gasket on and see if it goes away. Not sure what you could do to hold the sleeve in. Who knows if you’d have the same issue with a new sleeve and piston to. Just my 2 cents. Can’t wait for the next video!
Back in the late 1960s, we had the very same problem on a TD-24 with the 1091 engine. Did an overhaul on it, and on the first start up, after it had warmed up a bit, it got a pronounced knock in one of the front cylinders. Fortunately, the 1091 engine had two heads on the six cylinders engine, and we were able to pull just the front head. Just line your engine, everything looked fine, until a closer look showed some faint marks on the bottom of the hear where the liner had been contacting it. As you did, we compared the head gaskets, and the area around the perimeter of the liner was larger, and the sleeve was bouncing up and hitting the head. That was a long time ago, but I guess there were two variants of the engine that used different head heads and head gaskets. Sure was a head scratcher though.
Been anticipating the find! Yes it would have shattered the lip off that sleeve if it was run like that. I agree with Lukestrasser, put it together with the good head gasket and it will be fine for your lifetime!
Consider the hours you have on the engine since the previous rebuild, with a good known head gasket without the liner movement. Consider the very little time running in the state it's in now. If the liner still spec's good and the block bore spec's good, I wouldn't think twice about running what's there. Especially when the suspect is the head gasket and you've proved it with the old gasket and the FelPro gasket. Now, the issue to take to hand is to bring the problem up with Stiener and their gasket supplier. After all you have all of the convincing evidence in this video. I'm sure you're not the only one to run into this problem on that gasket set. Great video and searies on the Preperation H.
Thanks for the update. Would do a cleaning and inspection. If nothing out of the ordinary was found. Put the new gasket found from the flea market on. Back together. And run it. It’s your tractor and not someone else’s. It’s not going to be running on the road every day. You can watch it and see what else might happen. Glad at least you found the problem.
I see what is happening now. The block gets hot and expands and the liner sleeve gets loose and starts moving. Because the gasket is the wrong shape it doesn’t hold the sleeve in place. Not many would have suspected a head gasket. Proves what a conscientious and skilled technician you are.
You're definitely on the right track there. If everything else checks out, replace the head gasket and try again. Contrary to another comment here, I would be tempted to use a miniscule bead of Loctite sleeve-retainer right at the top. True, Loctite does its job very well--sometimes too well--but I've pulled out lots of sleeves over the years and, more than once, had to resort to running beads of weld down inside the original sleeves, which never failed to loosen them up. I might add that I didn't have the luxury of a boring machine to mill them out. I did a Perkins diesel one time where the old sleeves were a bear to get out, even after running a couple beads of weld, and, oddly enough, the new ones slipped in a trifle too easily. I used a dab of Loctite Sleeve-Retainer on the new ones and the job was successful; that engine runs several times a week, and has so for 40 years...
Great catch! I'd have never figured that out. For myself I would check the sleeve and if OK put on that fel-pro gasket and go with it. That will pinch it down and stop that moving plus keep the other three from moving. Should they be tighter, probably. Can you get a set of quality oversize sleeves, no. I'm surprised it didn't clatter when cold instead of warm. You would think the sleeve would grow more than the block when warm. Lots of sleeves out there are being held in by the head, you got bit with poor fitting aftermarket parts. I had sealing problems with a new (and expensive) no name head gasket too. I found a NOS head gasket, put it on and all is well. These cheap parts can cause so much headache.
The 478 Hercules engines found in white tractors haven loose dry sleeves. If you turn the block upside down they will fall out. The head holds them in.
I know nothing about this stuff, but it seems kind of amazing that the edge of a thin gasket is all that it takes to stop an entire cylinder sleeve from sliding around like that.
Well that's a pain! Put the head gasket on and use it. Years ago I had a knock that I had a time finding in my 49 M. Did all the things and finally took the head off. Right on top of # 2 piston was a smashed brass screw that I recognized immediately. One of the choke plate screws had got sucked all the way up the intake and delivered into #2 .
The good news is that it makes for more very interesting content. Good thing the sleeve was loose enough to lift up by rotating the engine. Saved some time tracking down the issue. Lots of good suggestions in the comments. Looking forward to seeing which direction you choose to move forward with this.
Excellent video that is not what you would expect to find. I would clean it up and check for cracks and if all looks good put some lock tite sleeve retainer sealant on the sleeve and put it back together. It definitely has good compression to drag the sleeve up and down like that. Keep up the great videos. The partial gasket sets really come in handy I save the extra gasket when I do a engine rebuild. Most of the time the gasket sets are generic to service multiple applications from the same manufacturer and they packed them together so you end up with 40 percent extra gaskets and short some too so I end up making a few new ones
Check and clean the sleeve. Looks to me like you have checked everything else so very thoroughly. After the cleaning of the sleeve, install the "good" head gasket and run it. You are so very right about the "known quality" vs the (unfortunately) crap that is out there now. Stick with the good stuff. Especially since it has so little hours on it! Love your channel and your attention to detail is fantastic!! Don't you just hate it when you are so careful on the build and do the best you can and then you have a problem?? So glad you found it and have a good solution.
Hay Squatch, I heard of a Ford tractor that had that problem and they pulled the sleeve, pinged the outside of the sleeve, put it back and the last I heard it was still working great 👍
Head gasket letting the dry sleeve come up. Would not have guessed that easily. Makes sense it would stay cold and move hot though. If you can't find any sleeve problem, I think it's reassemble with a good gasket and let her run.
About not being able to get a borescope head to turn 90degrees inside the cylinder, that's what the 90 degree clip on mirror that comes with all home/light shop borescopes is for.
Here's the thing. It was the gasket's job to keep sleeve from moving. Plus sleeve being so loose you would also had compression leak to the coolant on wet sleeves or crankcase on dry sleeves such as yours, both unacceptable. And If engine knocking was happening for long, that moving has caused wear to the block surface. Afraid you have to use some sealing compound there, no way around it IMHO, plus the gasket must overlap sleeves, ideally to the cylinder edge, just clear of the valves on the other side. If I couldn't find one to suit, I'd make a copper gasket and be away with it, but it's just me. (LOL)
Tough call with unknown parts. It makes me sad to hear that good quality parts are disappearing. Wish we had more manufacturing back here in the U.S. If it all checks out, put on the new head gasket and hope for the best.
Hey up the tractor came apart very nicely not a rusty or sized bolt in sight, pretty good for such an old girl looking forward to hearing about grandpa's story from your dad
Sunday morning tea and breakfast with new videos from Squatch253, Just a Few Acres Farm, and Iron Trap Garage, doesn't get much better. 😀 Edit to add: To state the obvious, the fact that sleeve not staying in place didn't wreak more havoc than it did is amazing!
Thanks for the video Toby. I think I would check the cylinder liner out and if it looks good I would reuse it. The after market parts aren't half the quality. My grandfather and I operate a small engine repair shop and are having a hard time finding quality parts. Looking forward to the next video as always. Cheers
It looks like Steiner sent you a head gasket for a Super H rather than an H. Bore of Super H is 3.50, bore of H is 3.375 . Sometimes the people who decide to obsolete parts do not check dimensions and differences.
I would clean the cylinder sleeve recess, apply JB weld in the recess, lower the sleeve back down, clean, install new Felpro gasket. Should work just fine
Here's my sugg to you if you can get one new sleeve and piston replace it cause the chance that lip can be cracked. And break on you then when you put it back in use some lock time help secure it. Nice you found the problem.
In my recollection, the sleeve is suppose to be .00075 smaller than size-for-size. That sleeve has been moving right from the start. It’s probably below flush with the deck. Buy a sleeve that requires a counter bore in the block, but larger than the sleeve now in use. Fit the sleeve for the block in your lathe and give that a try. I have had 44 years in the engine rebuild trade, eventually that piston will pull that sleeve down in to the block. Be prepared.
Most of these engines were built with slip-fit sleeves on good clean block bores, it only takes the head gasket to keep them in position. Interference fit dry sleeves became more common in the following decades, with increasing HP and diesel applications. When I installed these sleeves new 18 years ago, all 4 slid in just using hand pressure 👍
I have never seen a farmall dry sleeve to parent bore that loose. Usually they are very tight. But I think I would do as you are thinking, inspect it closely and put the correct fit gasket in it and move on. If you were going to plow with it day in and day out then I would take the block to a machine shop and get it redone. But the use you are giving it , it will run for many years. I have two of those tractors waiting to do the same thing to. Good luck.
On this engine, all 4 of those sleeves just slid in with hand pressure back when I rebuilt it 18 years ago, and I’ve done heavy plowing and lots of scraper work with this tractor in the hours since. I seriously doubt that #3 sleeve is any looser fit now than it was with the old head gasket still on top of it before I took it apart 👍
I would use red loctite on the sleeve when the piston is at TDC lower it back down put it back together. I can't believe the head gasket was meant to keep the sleeve in place but stop the sleeve from moving and wearing the sleeve cylinder from wearing out due to a moving sleeve. If that don't fix it you will have to rebuilt the engine with maybe a special made sleeve for the cylinder. I try the first steep first. You don't use it that hard and may get lucky and not have anymore problems. The cheap fix first. I still have a 454 with a #3 lose cam bearing 30 years ago. Put red loctite on it and it still runs fine till 7,000rpm and is still in my car.
Yep i know that but it moved sleeve with head off I have faith that you will investigate all possibilities and make the right choice on how to fix hang in there and good luck
Personally, I’d put liners in all four. And I’d definitely check the counter bores out for cracking like you already mentioned. I’d also re ring it while I was there. For a piece of mind.
We had brand new TR3 lifters back in the late 1990's that were not heat treated and shagged out in 12 miles. Lesson learned in the PAST CENTURY on race motors....Rockwell test new parts. It only gets worse. The dealer said they had a bad batch some years prior.
Must have missed this episode so many thanks! I would check it and put a good head gasket in then call it a day. Good thing you caught this one because it's a matter of time before all 4 would have been the same way. Thanks!
I took are M Farmall and had the iron block bored out .125 and put 450 farmall sleeves in it end of the same problem then I had the head resurfaced and had .250 shaved off then I drove this tractor 220 miles in a tractor parade in MO and when I got it home I put 5 gallons of fuel in it and it was 87 octane the high compression pistons factory performed great.
I'm certain that you will make the best choice from the available options. Worst case you have to tear it down and do it again, the content Genie smiles.
Interesting, I didn't expect that heavy tick to be the liner. 'Course that was the odd thing, the sound had more mass to it than I felt a rocker should cause. So when you found the rocker with a huge amount of clearance I though I had been wrong about what I had heard.
Parts are definitely not what they once were, if it all checks out, maybe a few light center punch pricks around the top of the liner and a new known good gasket. The struggle with parts is real. A friend and myself are currently chasing an antifreeze into oil pan leak on a WK-40. We found a gasket set, but its not the quality of the old stuff.
Well, i would say that liner has to come out to install new orings since that liner had been working on them. Once it's out, you can measure it to see if there is a problem. What does Senior say?
Since anaerobic gasket maker seems to been said a bit already, and copper compression rings would require using a copper washer or machining, could bronze braze the top or bottom of block to sleeve and what sucks in to what depth holds like solder on copper pipe, is a clear indicator before next guy tries to press it out and has excellent heat transfer conductivity.
I worked at an IH dealership as a mechanic for 20 years my shop boss would say if the sleeve fit is not tight spray it with silver paint. Sometimes it would take 3 coats but we never had a problem the engine afterwards.
When I worked in a farm equipment repair shop in the early 1970 we used aluminium spray paint on the dry sleeves that were loose. This was based on factory training the owner of the shop received from international when there shop was an IH dealership. Did a lot of engine overhauls using this method. I don't remember any issues with method.
I think check the sleeve out and if it checks out fine I would use the fel pro gasket and give it a try. I too don’t trust the parts today. The gasket you showed that doesn’t properly fit is proof of that. Enjoyable video Toby, thanks
For what it's worth, while recently searching for an early TD9 head gasket, I spoke to a gentleman at Olsons Gaskets, he explained that I would need to know what I had under the head before ordering because there were piston and sleeve replacement kits sold in which the gasket held the sleeve down, and if I got the wrong gasket I would likely find myself with the same problem your having. When it comes to being detail oriented you and I could be twins, but if it were mine I'd put that swap meet Fel-Pro on and run it, remember it is a 26 horsepower motor with 5.9:1 compression not a diesel and not to race car. Thanks for the videos, while I haven't seen them all I have watched many of them, always a good view!
I would clean the heck out of the top of the line and block recess with acetone and inspect closely. I’d nothing untoward is found then I would use some loctite and the good head gasket to retain the sleeve. You could also add some very gentle peening with a sharp center punch to assist the retention.
You should get a fiber optic lens for that. Light travels through glass (fiber optics) really well and then the entire seat could be seen by putting the fiber optic cable in your exhaust and intake ports. What if carbon build up from running at low rpm's chipped away? It does happen if a rod doesn't slip on its bearing to create the knocking sound.
I would pull the sleeves measure the block bore in all holes maybe try some new sleeves because if it was moving it produced some wear and eventually the head gasket won’t hold it back anymore you’ll be in the same boat , last one I did had to deep freeze liner and drive in with a block they were that tight
That's because most modern sleeves are made slightly oversized to accommodate for slight parent bore wear. About half of the dry sleeve engines ever made have just had slip-fit sleeves, primarily retained by the clamp load of the cylinder head and gasket.
Wow. Unless I had no choice, I couldn't just pop a new gasket on that - That would nag at me relentlessly even if it didn't make noise. Noise or not, It's been moving around in there to some degree anyway - I'd want to put eyes on the cylinder bore and make sure there wasn't something even sillier like a crack in the cylinder wall. Remember that old cartoon where the customer says "I hear a funny noise" and the mechanic replies "Well, lets wait until it's hilarious". Don't do that LOL
I would put a better gasket in, and call it good. Think about the forces involved, the motion of the sleeve going up and down is caused by the drag of the piston on the walls of the cylinder. I would guess that the friction force of the piston on the sleeve is not much (since it is so nicely cross hatched and lubricated). My uneducated guess is, a head gasket compressed by a head will easily keep that sleeve in place for a very long time without issue likely long enough to put 500 hours on the tractor over the next 40 years lol. Just my thoughts, take it with a grain of salt. Love the stuff Squatch!
Had a situation like that on engine i rebuilt. Had block work done at a shop, was all cleaned and in a bag. Knock ended up being a small chunk of old sleeve was caught in intake passage. Ended up on top of piston, just kissing head.. Lesson
This is the epitome of the old saw, "outta left field." All these revelations would seem to indicate Preparation-H should be included with a new tractor parts purchase to reduce discomfort.
