Love the both of you. Your wisdom at such a young age blows me away. I am almost 74. I have learned so much more from the two of you about astrology in the past 3 years than all the years ( since I was 18) than I have most of my life. I had my first chart done by a professional when I was in my mid 20’s that when I really got hooked. It the only thing I have ever found that comes close to making any sense of this life. Thank you to the both of you.
I was 11yrs when I started reading about astrology .I very noticed a combo of I ching astrology called jovian archive. Free birth chart an e book.very interesting.70 yrs an still searching.
It’s is from the two of you that my astrology journey started from. The foundation both Adam and Chris have given me has been so important. This really warms my heart to see y’all release this on both channels!
Yes! Love you both! Purple and Periwinkle backgrounds. Love this topic of free will and predestination. That was the topic that was so lamely approached in bible study. My questions or responses were always brushed off, so I'm so stoked to hear this.
It's true. this is THE best astrology podcast out there, and Chris your hard work to this is amazing. Also, big fan of Adam, what a perfect pick for this talk.
This conversation was so soulful and thought provoking. I’m always so impressed with both of your perspectives and wisdom. I loved your take on pro-fate, Chris!! 🙏💫
If everything is pre-determined Chris you can't say the only thing you can control is your reactions to it because that also would be fated. Stoicism is not complete pre-determinism. It's all about the attitude and state of mind you have to take which implies a degree of free will.
Great chat from two favourite astros. Stoic quotes sound similar to sections of the Gita - searching for that deeper equanimity, unshaken by pleasure or pain and all the pairs of opposites etc
This was so nice. Enjoyed it all. Loved Brennan's summary of the art near the end, in his definition as opposed to our lives being meaningless , floating around as we are on this rock. Birthday tomorrow, so lots of chewing on things. Grateful.
Aloha Chris and Adam, Excellent conversation! I too fall in the signs and partial determinism camps, but I also believe there is a level of causation at work which I think can most accurately be described as archetypal causation. Yes, when the pandemic began, we could all “feel” the intense (PL) contractionary (SA) nature of the experience, and I think the best way to understand that felt sense is that the Saturn-Pluto archetypal complex had been activated in the particular form of the pandemic and we were participating in the SA-PL archetypal dynamics according to our individual free-will and karmic relationship with both Saturn and Pluto. Everyone felt it differently, reflecting the multivalent and multidimensional nature of the archetypes, yet everyone was participating in the archetypal complex in their own unique way, reflective of the individual soul’s particular karmic relationship. I believe the same dynamics are true in the way individuals participate in the archetypal dynamics of their natal charts and personal transits. Archetypal causation reflects the novel participatory dimension of the creative will of the cosmos (the Logos, the Nous, or the Anima Mundi) as well as human individual will to co-creatively enact its soul's development in participation with the archetypes. I think we can understand archetypal participation through Jung’s concept of synchronicity (which I believe Jung also believed, particularly in his later years). The archetypes are both within the human psyche and in the phenomenal world. There is only one Pluto or Saturn archetype. It is the same archetype in the human psyche and in the world. The planets are living symbols of the archetypes. Synchronicity is the phenomenon that unites the inner experience with the outer phenomenon, reflected in the synchronistic relationship between the human soul, personal transits, and world transits. The causal process seems to reflect a form of archetypal entanglement in which individual psyches and the collective psyche participate, related to individual free-will, individual karma, and to some form of collective karma as well. Thank you both for all your work and the very interesting discussion! Mahalo, Chad
Great talk. Thank you for your amazing contribution! I heard the skeptic comment about Saturn in the 9th, however I have Saturn in the 9th in Taurus - in a night chart, but I am a full time astrologer:). It’s ruled by Venus in Aquarius in the 6th, so I am grounded in service to encourage personal growth & freedom. But my stepdad was an atheist as his parents were so religious.
This might be one of my most favorite episodes on the podcast. Definitely the most thoughtful discussion on this subject that I've heard. Thanks Chris and Adam, for another rich exploration of a complex astrological dilemma that we all will continue to face as we grow in the this field. Bravo!
Love this discussion💜The statement about partial determinism and saying other things influence us is interesting because places also have natal charts. External circumstances can be made into event charts so doesn’t this still fall into the realm of fated? If you look at any natural disaster it becomes quite clear that external events clearly are seen on charts. Anyways thank you again for this thought provoking discussion💜
i like what adam says at 48:45 about how astrology helped him trust the journey of his life. that's how i feel about it, too! i'm watching 5 months late near the end of the venus retrograde and after watching all those videos i started looking into my prenatal venus star point and that has been very illuminating, to say the least
Love seeing Adam on this podcast and hearing about his take on indian philosophy, would love to learn more about the connection between the bhakti concept he mentioned and astrology.
Great video, really like the two of you together. On the topic of fate and karma, my view is that karma is the result of fate. Whether that is good/positive karma or paying back/off bad karma. It is the fate that happens and karma is what we get from it. That how I view the two. ❤️
I was thinking about fate this morning and then saw this video! Reason I was thinking about it is because I let go of astrology for a week for time off and using free will I chose something I thought was taking me further away until I researched march energies and came across a website that basically showed me that my choice due to free will was actually already written in astrology through someone's interpretation of my Aries rising energy that month! So free will IS fated! Thankyou for this video 🇦🇺
Great podcast!! I have Saturn in the 9th and astrology is my faith! Maybe you can shed more light on what that aspect means. Thank you for all your work.
Have a look through the back catalogue of this channel, you will find years of material on the planets, houses, signs and aspects there as Chris has done series on each.
Fabulous and thought provoking which I love. I am drawn to fate and “no choice” and finding peace in that is what we are here for. It makes you appreciate everything.
In reference to his "evolved" line of thinking I always took it to mean enlightenment. Religions tell you God is I AM. I am is enlightenment. Astrology helps us work through our karma, mantras can too. So can yoga... I think the ancient societies of Tibet and China who used acupuncture and yoga and Ayurvedic herbs. Idk. I think it's all linked in a way.
Fate, I wish I would of known about how important it is to know about your birth chart, for me anyway could of been more helpful in my life and accepting my fate as it may lay.
Sorry, not related to this topic but I've been trying to find a video on the boundaries of each sign in Hellenistic astrology. Do you have a video on this topic? 🙂
Astrology is predictable as you can determine exact placements in advanced. So it would have to be causal or at least interlocked with the cause. Like a clock or sextant. A measuring device. Tarot is not predictable so it is more likely an omen of probability. I like to think of Astrology as a sextant and the Tarot as a barometer.
Well, when this was originally uploaded, I was trying to avoid astrology to focus on an astro method (didn’t listen to the entire episode on NL) to decide to chill, listened to an Astro podcast episode at work which was followed by an algorithm auto “next up” starting out with Chris discussing books from Demetra George that reminded me she already did most of the work I planned to try to do, so I ordered her books instead. This being uploaded, I can’t help but chuckle a little since I’m trying my best to NOT analyze my natal chart while knowing enough about my natal to know I’m actually doing what is described in my natal chart. I’ve brought up it up in comments with a date, if you can apply the Fibonacci Sequence to astrology and there’s something about 11/08, I should be able to look at something around that time related to sun/moon and Saturn: solar eclipse in scorpio with Saturn shortly after that date in that year. Mean anything? I could probably look for something but I won’t. I’d have to look at the 11/08 lunar eclipse not that long ago. Just felt like being goofy… Part of Venus being in aries right now (Venus year lord) was the whole thing where Tool noticed a song they were writing was in Fibonacci numbers so they wrote the entire song in the Fibonacci sequence. That made me look at the sequence in the thema mundi more closely. Lateralus, that’s going to be Chris’s Pluto in Aquarius band. “As below so above and beyond, I imagine. Drawn outside the lines of reason. Push the envelope, watch it bend” There’s a point when tool fans over analyze that song realizing it’s a contradiction which is something brought up in this episode related to fate/free will. If you could use astrology to predict the future at 100% accuracy, would you even want to live in that world? Probably not. There’s enough there to get a sense of something “divine”. Like being really into reading books on astrology to get to a more philosophical bend which is highlighting that it isn’t only what I’d do, I’d enjoy it. Some parts, I’m setting aside for later TRYING to not dive too deep into yet. There’s an interesting issue where some combust/under the beams techniques show up weird where Saturn/Mercury were in conjunction the 7th day prior to moving into range and another where moon (born just before full moon) goes forward conjunct LoF which makes it REALLY easy to find aspects. I’m also all “don’t read into that yet, deal with interpretations later.” Work week/tired.. more prone to errors. However, it does show that even traditional astrologers used motion which may help figure out applying quadrant houses more properly. Bending angles may make sense. Even with topics here, a positive is the amount of mental flexibility astrology can use where it’s like getting an eye screening, flipping through different lenses. They’re just different view points, can be used simultaneously so it’s fascinating. For example, my natal Saturn may be peregrine which is easy to understand traditionally in that it doesn’t exactly have the outside support so it works differently by a different route. If it’s thoroughly broken down, it actually has a very unusual mechanism that I could point out. I think I heard from a lecture by Hand related to a view Schmidt had on texts related to combustion which I agree with where the significations are more psychological than physical. There’s also a point with natal mercury retrogrades where a natal merc may not have been (in the past) able to be expressed where (today) it’s much easier. Anyways, there’s a lot that can be said and I agree with multiple viewpoints as the best position. I’d also argue there are more interesting topics within a question than the answer like “if I write a book, will it be successful?” Should it matter? There are also interesting points where it can be argued that even if something is fated, that may not be a specific fated event. Meaning: you can only judge by hindsight to some extent. It’s kind of fascinating that ancient astrologers sort of knew, of the terrestrial planets, Venus has the thickest atmosphere absorbing/retaining more of the suns light designating it feminine. It has to be aliens.. (kidding) Much of this reminded me of Lost with all the “Nature has a way of cause correcting itself” talk. Fun stuff. 9th house lot of exaltation, so..
Ya saya sudah bertemu seorang wanita, ia memiliki Saturn dirumah ke 9 satu rumah dengan Bulan di Scorpio, dia adalah orang malam. Ketika aku selesai membacakan Natal Chart nya, dia berkomentar "pasti ada cara kan supaya apa yang jelek tidak terjadi?" Benar sungguh keras kepala, sepertinya ia tak mempercayai takdirnya dan percaya semuanya bisa diubah, astrologi bukan absolute takdir baginya.
Thank you for posting this very interesting conversation. I'll emphasize that, to me at least, strong warning of potential trials/challenges is primarily what I want from any astrologer I consult. Several years ago I consulted with an astrologer who warned me rather vaguely of "the patriarchy" but didn't tell me about the public humiliation, familial humiliation, betrayal by loved ones, sudden death of my father, traumatic surgery for my mother-in-law and being flat on my back ill for three months that all happened to me in one year shortly after the consultation. Have not been back to that astrologer. Please! Fair and clear warning of potential pitfalls is useful.
There is no free will. There is no right and wrong. All is illusion. Because there is no 'I'. The whole universe is just constanly changing system which we are all just a very tiny part of the universe system which is inter-related and actually 'one'. Just like the body of universe, and we are just one cell frm trilion of body cells. There is no one separate God. The wholeness is God. Like, there is no Mr. John. But the system of trillion cells inter-related one another to make a body system called John. If we feel we hv free will, it is because there is always 'unknown'. Unknown create a fake conviction of a fake free will. Even astrology is not a perfect device to know anything, that makes a concept of free will arise.
when I studied determinism in my analytic philosophy degree, the options were no free will /all determinism OR occasional free will and 99.9..% determined. free will is very hard to argue for logically and relies on spiritual assumptions - but still is hard to argue for even then in an ultimate sense. so the deterministic aspects of astrology is entirely consistent with modern philosophy even if the over all assertions are not.
Free will is quite easy to argue for. If life is entirely deterministic, it follows that hypothetically one could know all the outcomes because there must be a knowable mechanism that controls observable, physical actions in the world. Then let's suppose I know that in 2 minutes I'm fated to watch another RU-vid video... now that I have the knowledge, I simply choose not to, with my free will. And that's the end of that, I believe.
@@FlashTrance i don’t think you’ve made a convincing case for such a mechanism nor that it be knowable. and by choosing again it, then you’ve shown there is no such mechanism or that you can’t know it and so choosing against what you misbelieve it to be is it actually determining your choice. i think free will occurs in the not knowing the determinism and more specifically not knowing the self and the ability to choose differently than self. humans can act unnaturally and those are potentially partially free will actions. i also think free will shows up in repentance and forgiveness.
@@MrCalebgrayson That would be a fair critique, but I do want to point out that most determinists use such a mechanism to justify their determinism (especially biological determinism) I also run into the issue of my definition of free will not matching other people's definitions... free will to me means that I can respond to knowledge in specific, non-determined ways. I'm not suggesting that people are not influenced by things... earthquakes, spirits, etc. Only that ultimately we have the choice to decide how to respond to any given situation (in my worldview, we are given this choice to see whether or not we will choose Love aka God)
@@FlashTrance oh i beleive in local freewill - just that it’s more like the difference between ♓︎ Pisces and ♈︎ Aries - ♂ Mars as that personal Divine Spark floating on the ocean of past experience. my theology is influenced by Swedenborg’s idea of angels and self awareness - something humans are born without giving them that little bit of Spirit form which novelty comes.
It’s been all in the stars ✨ since the moment each and everyone of us is conceived. All of those ups and downs! Free will/choices are totally related to the stars; stars limit and colour choices. There are too many many things that we can’t change, though. Yes, fate. We don’t choose our family and our parents. We don’t choose our skin and eyes colour. We don’t choose the life changing dangers that we get exposed to: a plane crash, an earthquake, a random assault by a stranger, narcissistic parents/siblings. Yes, it’s all been already planned for us. Yet, we’re rarely given/blessed with a few choices that could lead to a better or worse lives. Acceptance? Well, this lifetime isn’t forever. Is it? Yes, astrology makes fear and pain much bearable.
