Thank you very much for this podcast! It is a hard lesson, but a good listen and as a Messianic gentile I think it afirm's very well the beautiful heritage so many of us hold as we come into this movement, learn and try to find our space.
Finally! Thank you so much for this discussion. I've been waiting for this kind of clarity for several years now. You guys are awesome. Always gracious in your speech while being firm in your convictions and corrections. Blessings on you all.
Thank you for this podcast. I have been saying this for a couple of years now. Many gentiles are confused regarding the two movements. It just makes our job harder but not impossible. Messiah wants His true message spread and He goes before us.
I’m from a gentile believers background. I have seen the same frustrations of “Christian church goers” doing as the Apostle Paul warned about. That the traditions of man make the Word of God of no effect “ We humans need to check this fault in our fallen DNA. A walk of faith (loyal, faithful, allegiance, thank you) must be one with our hearts and minds always open to The Holy Spirits teaching of scripture so that tradition wont cause the daily fresh provided manna to become stale. Great show. Even better are your FFOZ courses. Paul. 😊
As a Messianic Gentile, I am not ethnically Jewish, but I see myself as a sojourner in the Jewish camp of Moses Torah. Jesus is my Messiah as described in the Gospels, but Paul is a principal disciple that helps me understand Jesus.
Thank you for this timely, informative session. As a gentile believer I feel so blessed to have found a small Messianic Synagogue close to our rural home and to be able to worship next to His chosen people. I pray to be shown my true place within next to my new older siblings.
The one thing to note when looking at the Puritan movement in Christian history, it was a movement away from RCC orthodoxy and a move toward a more biblical orthodoxy. Some worshipped on the Sabbath even. So this year Easter falls on March 31st but Passover falls on April 22nd 🫤 I can guarantee that Easter will not be celebrated on the following Sunday on the 28th by most "Protestant" church which was common in the early church. Oskar Skarsone points out that from Passover to Pentecost was a very revered season in the early church. I really think there is a Puritan stream to connect to in these discussions as well.
I’m part of the Hebrew Roots movement. I don’t agree with your negative rhetoric about the movement, but will say that I like many of the insights that FFOZ offers. Shalom
We just released a podcast episode about the Hebrew Roots movement and Messianic Judaism. If you listen to it, let us know what you think: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-y2Hj2xreUIM.html
Thank you for this! I really needed this conversation This image helped me… The adopted son will celebrate with the family become part of the family in every way, but will never LOOK or carry a genetic resemblance of the family. So part of the family, yes! But you can tell who’s adopted by simply look at them - you can see the difference Absolutely a vital member of the family, but also does not replace the biological child Thank you!!
So I don’t have to keep the sabbath, the appointed times of are little to no importance to me. Should I just warm a pew seat on Sunday than and forget about it all because I’m not a Jew?
Why do you accuse us of lawlessness? Because we say not all of the Torah applies to Gentiles? Is a Gentile lawless for never eating the Passover lamb? Should a man fulfill the purification rites of a new mother? No, it would be lawless to say the commandments do apply equally to everyone and to ignore the distinctions inherent within the Torah.
@@firstfruitsofzion are you stating the sojourner/gentile can sin? Before you answer, how does John define sin? If the gentile has accepted the covenant/circumcision he/she may eat of the Passover. There is one law for all people… where does that change? Either we as believers follow Torah and the commands because we love Him or you are sinners and ergo lawless. The NT is clear on this.
There is no distinction in opportunity for salvation. Regardless of ethnicity, status, and sex, someone can be a disciple of the Master. However, just as the Torah applies in different ways to men and women, it applies differently to Jews and Gentiles.
Hebrew roots movement is closely associated with one law movement. They place a heavy emphasis that gentiles are “obligated” to keep God’s appointed times. If gentiles were obligated that would go against Paul’s teachings especially in Colossians 2:16-17 and Galatians 5 :3. I love the passage in Roman’s 8:4- we fulfill the righteousness of Torah when we walk by the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit guides you to observe the feasts there is nothing wrong with that as we all be celebrating them in the messianic era. The substance is Messiah in Colossians 2. We need to keep our focus on Messiah ! I would highly recommend purchasing “God Fearer” book written by Toby Janicki. He really outlines everything that was discussed in this podcast
We need to follow the holy scriptures my friend Paul, is a man like you why is it that everything has to be confirmed with Paul how about Messiah in the four gospels FFOZ has not quoted Messiah not even once in their teachings it is Messiah and the holy Torah rulings that we need to follow Not Paul, my friend, I pray that God should give us the courage to stay true to his holy Torah and the teachings of the four gospels so that we can come back to what is truth Paul is teaching just like how the Jewish people today view gentiles follow the Noah Hyde law That is exactly what Paul was teaching back in those days no difference. In these discussions, please do not use Paul as your authority. You need to go back to the holy scriptures as your authority. This is a big problem, and this is what get us in this mess in Christianity, following along with Babylonian holidays, and moving away from the Sabbath of God.
Thank you for your comment, but why is it that you were going to Paul’s teaching and refusing to talk about what God says go and read Isaiah 56 and tell me who has divine providence over us and divine authority is it Paul or is it HaShem Yeshua himself says if you love me keep my commandments He did not say Jewish people if you love me keep my Commandments gentle if you love me, you don’t have to rest on the sabbath or you don’t have to do the rest of the commandment just do the Noah hide laws Guys, please do not allow the Messianic leaders and organizations to confuse you and bring in their Distinction, theology By the grace of God, we do not subscribe to Paul’s teachings I believe there are values in What he hast to say, but he does not have authority over the body of Messiah prove your case in the Holy Torah and Profits
When Gentiles converts over to Judaism, they are welcome in, and they become Jews and are treated as such when Gentiles converts over to the Messianic faith They are treated like second-class citizens
Deuteronomy 12:30-31 and Deuteronomy 12:4. ... Don't use other cultures ways of practicing worship to worship the Lord God. Their ways are detestable to him. God tells us in the Torah how he LIKES and WANTS to be worshiped and how we can treat him like He's Holy. He punished Moses for not treating him like he's Holy... I don't think God's preferences are changed in how he wants to be worshiped and treated. For that reason, i think it's better to refer to Torah to understand who God is, and how to be in good relationship with him, worship him, and understand what things are REALLY important to him. There are lots of these things from Torah that are REQUIRED to get into heaven, per the book of Revelation. Deuteronomy in the Torah is quoted by Jesus more than any other old testament book, bc of it's importance. The sermon on the Mount is his re teaching Torah, but with spirit of the law added to it. The ten commandments is God's HOW we fulfill the most important two commandments of love God more than anything, and love your neighbor as you love yourself. Then, the law of Moses describes HOW to live the Ten commandments, by understanding God's heart and what he would do, better. If you compare all the laws of Moses to the Ten Commandments, A lot of them can literally just be considered HOW to actively live out the Ten Commandments. They are supporting laws that really just expand on the Ten Commandments in some way. Most of them are ones that would still apply to how Jesus teaches us to live.
”there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor freeman, neither male nor female; for in union with the Messiah Yeshua, you are all one. Also, if you belong to the Messiah, you are seed of Avraham and heirs according to the promise.“ Galatians (Gal) 3:28-29 CJB You guys are wrong AND IM JEWISH.
@@firstfruitsofzion you know exactly where you are wrong. I’m not going to reply with my own words. If HaShems words, spoken through Rabbi Sha’ul, are not enough for you then you refuse correction. I love you brothers. Messiah Adonai loves you. Repent for encouraging division. Please don’t let the adversary deceive you.
I love the fact that I'm practicing living with Yah Yeshua. It makes me cry that I doing this. Eating ,reading, singing, dancing , sleeping in the Sukkah. Hehehe
Your teachings, both of you are very confusing as to what you should do with the gentiles. God has already set his rules for all of humanity. He did not ask the Jewish people or leaders or Paul or FFOZ to redefine his rules. Yes, they are some distinctions, but not to the extent of how FFOZ is presented it and yes, the sabbath day belongs to all of humanity. It was brought into being right at creation, God did not say only Jewish people should do this when he instituted the sabbath at creation. The sabbath was not mentioned in the Noah height law or all the things that you guys have mentioned. Are you saying that God does not want the nations to rest?When he commanded it from the beginning? which is a reason why when he gave the 10 Commandments, he says remember to keep the Sabbath day holy? The only commandment that he tell us to remember why is that it belongs to all humanity and it was given from the time of creation people forget things FFOZ please do not forget that the Shabbat also belongs to the nation and try not to teach otherwise, the scripture Talks about people who teaches a different gospel. Paul is not my Messiah. Yes, sure is my Messiah while I value Paul’s teachings, but if it cannot be confirmed in the holy Torah, I will not subscribe to it. And you guys literally build this FFOZ doctrine directly from Paul’s teaching. This is unbelievable to me.
Sabbath rest is available to all of humanity, but the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant God made with Israel, so Israel has a unique responsibility to it that is not shared by the nations. “The people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.” (Exodus 31:16-17)
So the multitudes that came out with the Israelites did they not keep the sabbath? When HaShem said to remember ? Did Ruth not say your G-D is my G-D and the messiah line was from Ruth what about Isaiah 56:6 sabbath is a blessed time to all who follow the one true God. And if you love me keep my commandments. The very early messianic Jew and gentile who believed in the messiah kept Sabbath together. Your theology is only doing what caused the split back in the early days of messianic belief. Please be carful using Paul it is written his words are confusing. Shalom brothers
I listened to your talk now for 50 minutes - and it exclusively was about the law and how to keep it correctly. Do you have a chance to change your binocculares, your 👓? You're stuck in the law forgetting the main thing! Ist the Torah a lawbook? Certainly not! Otherwise it would have started at exodus 12 and not with Genesis! So what is it? How can Jesus (rightfully) claim that Moses wrote about him? Where does Moses write about Jesus? Nowhere, but still - if the Torah is a book of stories, of narratives, we'll find many comparisons to Jesus the Messiah. But you are still in your traditional Jewish mindset focussed on keeping the law as perfectly as possible! Where in the Torah is it forbidden to turn on the electric light on Sabbath? Nowhere! But in the desire to make nothing false you interpret and interpret and interpret. . . . . So when the law is put in our circumcised hearts (to be kept), also in the gentiles hearts, what does this tell us? Did God make a mistake in giving his spirit to nonjews? Making a room for himself in their bodys as a temple of the holy spirit? So what was the apostles real issue? I think you really missed it with creating this theology of a difference: There is only ONE head and only ONE body. Paul uses the difference of organs to point to jobdescriptions, not to different set of laws. And to finally put it very simple: Leviticus 23 starts with these simple words "these are MY holy convocations" not the ones of Israel or the gentiles and Paul speaks to the gentile believers in Corinth to keep the feast (Passover) without leaven!! (they partially kept it till the 3rd century). A bit more churchhistory would help❤
“All the congregation of Israel shall keep [the statute of the Passover lamb] … But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you” (Exodus 12:47-49). There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in opportunity for salvation. However, God expects distinction in how Jews and Gentiles, the circumcised and the uncircumcised, walk in righteousness with him. In fact, he commanded this distinction, even with righteous Gentiles living within Israel. You ridicule us for “creating this theology of a difference,” but you yourself say even Paul made distinction between Jews and Gentiles. If there is a difference in job description, that means the jobs are not the same. You might mock us for staying in a “traditional Jewish mindset focused on keeping the law as perfectly as possible,” but “this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).
Cause only Yeshua can save us. Where does the law come in. We love Yah ans want to obey the commandments. It's out of love. Y ah said if you love me keep my commandments
