I echo Dan’s sentiments in the credits section. It was such a long and amazing game, just to get to that ending and walk away confused. Then I felt frustrated by my confusion, and while I’m content to say “let’s see where it’s going in re-3”, that’s a hard pill to swallow at the same time. I do love the game, but with all the time spent on side quests and random animations, I would’ve loved to have a little time spent for clarity right at the end. Thank you for your excellent work as always, both to Dan and Carrie!!💜
Im genuinely curious if im in the minority. After beating the game I was simply feeling "oh this is cool, oh i get whats going on, oh im not so sure about that it will be cool to find out,". I was never really confused. And as far as the emotional feelings at the ending...i think they made the decision to aim for something different. No one was going to get that impact of Aerith dying again. We all knew it could happen, and if it had happened just straight as i think it would have just been "ah ok iv been worried this whole time, guess thats were it ended again" rather then the gut punch of the original. I think for me the emotional...gut punch i guess...came over the course of the game just by them showing how badly Cloud was being affected, how much he was losing himself, and the constant feeling of just how badly is it going to go for him as the game continued.
I think Dan’s discussion about the story during the credits perfectly nails my feelings about this game’s story. I couldn’t be fully sad at the end like I wish I could have been, because I was just confused and trying to piece things together.
Same, it's why I wish they'd either played it straight or gone for a bigger change. It feels like they tried to do both and it just ends up taking away from itself.
Seriously. As someone who hasn't played the original but is well aware of Aerith's death as one of the most iconic character deaths in all of video games, I was just mystified at how this was supposed to be a satisfactory ending. This was no impact at all to her death - you don't see it on screen, you don't see her pierced with Sephiroth's sword, and it was certainly not clear to me that she actually died at that moment. I was 50-50 on if it was real or if it was some fake out and she would die later. So watching like 90 minutes of combat in between a character's death and when I realize it's a Real Death... For me it fell completely flat. And I teared up at Aerith's flashback with her mother a few episodes ago, so it's not like I'm not emotionally invested here.
I think Tifa should have died. Let me be clear, I don't dislike Tifa, nor am I dismissing her importance to the story. On the contrary, because she is so deeply connected to Cloud and his mental issues, her death would have horrible ramifications for Cloud's well-being. Furthermore, if Aerith lives, she might not be able to contribute to giving Holy that extra push at the end. These two key facts would make Sephiroth even more likely to succeed in his bid for godhood than the original timeline, if he were to kill Tifa instead of Aerith. Aerith, I'm sure, would have no shortage of existential angst over being given a reprieve from death, at the cost of losing Tifa, who she was clearly becoming close friends with. From there, there are two ways it could go. If the party still manages to pull through and save the world despite this massive change to the plot, it only further cements that Sephiroth is fated to fail. Alternatively, this change does make victory impossible for our heroes, and so they have to return to the original timeline, which means that Aerith is saddled with a terrible burden, to willingly give up her life, so that Tifa can return and make things right. I could see either way working.
@@imveryangryitsnotbutter I have nothing to add, I just wanted to say that's a really cool idea and I like the detail of the how's and why's you put into it.
That really should have happened since the conceit of this story is that Sephiroth learned from his mistakes and is now more determined to make Cloud suffer to put him under control. In that sense, Tifa, being the actual support of Cloud, should have died. Even if Aerith is dear, it is clear Tifa is Cloud’s support.
Oh! I wasn't expecting the finale today! Well, I just wanted to say that this might be the best let's play out there. Not because of the game, but because of how exceptional Dan and Carrie's production have been. PlayFrame is always fun and respectful, but this was top-notch. The hilarious edits, the thoughtful commentary, the courteous spoiler tape, the choices in what content to show and what to cut, the thorough and helpful chapter timestamps on every video... And that's just some of the hard work I can see. I'm sure there were (likely technical) difficulties none of us will ever have any idea happened with how flawless the final product is. I'm sure this series was a behemoth of work, and I'm grateful for my truly delightful time with it 🩷💚.
I just want to stop and say how much I appreciate the excellent (and organized) way Dan manages the playlists for the channel. I love knowing I'll be able to find anything.
the worst part about being confused about a story is not knowing if i'm supposed to be confused and vibe with it, or if i'm supposed to understand and don't. if i KNOW it's the former, i can vibe. but i will second guess every bit of knowledge until i get my feet on the ground again
I think the story is implying that Aerith is manifesting similarly to the way Sephiroth is, and maybe only Cloud is sensitive enough to pick it up, either due to the SOLDIER experiment or because he has the Black/White Materia. Red's reaction at the end would imply he is also sensitive enough to sense Aerith, but only when she's very close. But I guess we'll see if I'm right.
If you go back a few game chapters and watch, Zack, just like Cloud, can a tear in the sky, something that only seems visible to those who know of/have experienced other worlds.
I think you're right on that - but I think it would be a better game if they'd made it clearer. As far as I recall, the remake series hasn't really explained what's up with Sephiroth to that extent (i.e. the "yup, he's totally dead, his body is frozen in the glacier in the north, these are just ghost projection shapeshifty kinda things not actual teleportation" explanation that comes later in FF7 original). An explanation of that (or a recap somewhere closer to the end if we had had it) would make the parallel more obvious. Similarly, whatever shenanigans Sephiroth pulled to go from "world where Cloud parried the attack" to "world where Aerith is stabbed" are also either new, or only happened long enough ago that they don't seem familiar - some lesser version of that foreshadowed, e.g., at the collapse of the temple when Sephiroth recovers the Black Materia would make that moment hit a lot more as "Oh fuck he did the thing and she's dead" rather than "what the heck is going on?" The common thread of both of these is a lot of what Dan's talking about - you can have big mysteries that leave the players asking questions, and you can have big emotional moments, and you can even mix them quite a bit - but IMO it's better to space out the "point where the player starts asking big questions" from the "point where the player has big emotions", otherwise neither lands as well as they could
I think it's Jenova not Aerith, we are told several times that Jenova wears the faces of the dead/loved ones it's a deceiver/manipulator, yet we never see it happen. I think this is what's happining. That's why Sephiroth is "happy" with the state Cloud is left in. I think the real Aerith will show up in the life stream, but we haven't seen her yet ever since she died we've been seeing Jenova. Like before city of the ancients in the woods she tells Cloud focus on yourself leave Sephiroth to me, but now she's telling him to go after him it's kinda weird.
Even just a line of Sephiroth saying to the group "You are not the only ones seeking to change fate", maybe having knowledge that he was destined to fail, but is fracturing the timeline enough to find one where he wins and then bringing that outcome to reality in every timeline. At the end of this game, the characters should at least be aware that there are multiple worlds based on them fighting fate in the first game, but hopeful that they could win, even if they lost Aerith and all seems hopeless, because Sephiroth hinted they were able to do it once.
Hi, person who's never played the original FF7 here, I cannot overstate how invested I am in this series now. I am so endlessly thankful for everything about this Let's Play: the analysis of both the original and the remake, the geeking out, the courteous and absolutely perfect content performed off-screen to streamline the viewing experience, and the sense of humour in both the commentary and the editing is absolutely spot-on. One of the biggest things I love about this game is that level of silliness they're willing to throw themselves into, it is so freaking REFRESHING to see all the ways the original game is honoured, faithfully or otherwise, to not have it all painted over in the same boring coat of Gritty And Serious™ paint. And the cast, HOO BOY I love everyone in this cast. They're all casted phenomenally, and it's really neat seeing their different playstyles come into play. but for the LOVE of GOD can someone put a therapist in this party because BOY they are in dire need of one right about now
I wonder... Did Dan foresee the pre-rendered cut scenes coming, and changed to the Buster Sword so it would be a better viewing experience? He's the kind of lovable doof who would do that
I really appreciated that over the credits talk. Dan is always measured, clear, and fair in a way that is increasingly rare online. Loved the playthrough, as ever. Thank you for the thorough and joyful time, Dan!
I think part of what drives the counterproductive storytelling impulses that Dan talks about in his final rambles is something he references but doesn't say explicitly. He mentions that game storytellers want to give fans a mystery to puzzle over and keep them engaged and excited until the next game comes out; what he doesn't add is, _because there might always be a next game._ Games in the AAA space are not allowed to come to a natural conclusion based on narrative momentum because, if studios had it their way, no successful AAA franchise would _ever_ end. So the devs are left to try to sustain interest in any way they can. This game (presumably) is intended to have a definite conclusion, but maybe they fall into those bad habits regardless. Overall, though, I've enjoyed this experience immensely. Thanks as always to Dan and Carrie for a great playthrough!
While I do like Ghost(?) Aerith appearing afterwards, I do prefer the sequence of events from the original more. The 8-phase boss sequence really detracts from tragedy of the situation.
Thank you for playing this. I often get to experience games through your channel, so this was a treat. I totally agree with your assessment on the story and additions. Thank you, Carrie for the good editing! And the time stamps!
The unmitigated crulty of making Cait the most difficult character to play, being the last addition to the playable team, AND having a gap between when you last get to play him before tossing him into the final boss rush. Square why must you do my boy dirty like that.
They also remove everything on him besides his weapon when he leaves the party, and it's easy to forget to fix that and go into the final battle with a papier-mâché robot cat who dies to a stiff breeze. Very frustrating.
Wow, finale time. I have been following you on NF+ for years, and on EC before that, but I don't concider myself a Let's Play person so never checked this channel out. But when Rebirth came out I wanted more as I couldn't play as much as I wanted, so started to watch this. I've now made my way through several of your playthroughs of various games (with many more to come) and I'm a huge fan of your commentary, especially when you geek out about animation, and as I've pledged to not add any more monthly Patreons for a while, I went ahead and pledged a year all at once. Thank you for this. Looking forward to whatever comes next.
Spoilers for episode below, also touches on OG spoilers. Okay so, there are two competing theories here for me in this finale to what I think is going on and what may happen in part 3. The first and most popular is that Aerith is actually dead and that Cloud is in denial. I can see that bc of the way his LB is not full the way everyone else’s is. However, I also suspect we may have a confluence of timelines here, just as Sephiroth notes at 20:09 (and, as I believe, indicated by the rainbow light, which also pops up in other instances of multiple worlds colliding, much like last episode) where Cloud sees a world where Aerith lives while everyone else sees her death. This ties into a longer theory a person I follow on Twitter posits by Turquoise Hammer, so I recommend checking them out for more details. Regardless, this would be sorted out in That Scene in part 3. Which I also think might involve an Aerith from another timeline to help too this time around, but this is mere speculation. As for how a lot of this will resolve, I have a friend who thinks that Limit Breaks will be the key. Limit Breaks have seen a lot of highlights as of late in the FF series. From XVI’s first usage being Clive accepting being Ifrit’s Dominant to some very spoilery details in FFXIV Endwalker (if you know you know). So hitting more of this here is not out of the realm of possibility. Seeing the Clear Materia, my friend Kizu posits that it will be filled with Limit Break energy for however the final victory will go. As for a final fate for Aerith, I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility for her to get a second chance somehow. For instance, she could get an in universe revival, especially given how polls conducted in Japan show consistently that Aerith living is the most requested change. But I think what’s more likely is a different timeline’s Aerith will assist this one’s, just as I think this is how Aerith fought with Cloud in that last fight. Nothing to do until then but wait and speculate, however.
Now to the end of the credits finally, and ngl I feel similarly after Rebirth. I didn’t feel that way after Remake as I was hype at the idea that the devs wanted a canon divergent AU. After Rebirth and how unclear Aerith’s fate seems to be and the way they (hopefully intentionally) muddled the emotions of that scene with that boss rush (at least one or two of those Avalanche fights could have been cut imho), I’m just. Idk, I’m really really praying part 3 sticks the landing and makes the changes worth it. I love the changes overall. But man, I need some really good justification if they’re going to keep Aerith dead.
I'm surprised to hear so many people say they don't get the point of changing the story if you *don't* save Aerith. For me, the cop out would have been if the entire point of the game was to take away the *one big death* everybody knows about.
2:02 there's that gorgeous Advent Children music again 8:55 Yuffie hiding behind Barret; yeah I'm still loving their bond, he's totally got two adopted daughters now 😊 17:17 I'm big confused about this whole sequence, but damn if it's not some of the most beautiful game I've ever seen 19:11 OK THAT'S *COLD* 😢 Jenova fight: idk, something about the same, tired combat lines feels out of place here. 45:35 that's not just 11th hour, it's 11-55 50:04 yeah, this is definitely not a game for people who haven't played OG... 1:12:58 like Smash Bros introduction
2:03:22 'I wish them good luck on the production of the next on, bringing this whole trilogy thing in for a landing' I hope they do a better job at it than Cid did with the Tiny Bronco.
dan, i totally agree with your takes about the game, they were very similar to my own when i finished it. i gotta say, rewatching the game now with your playthru gave me new insights with what the game is trying to do. it is very confusing still, though. but time and rewatching it made me understand it a bit more. although i still think the game has some pacing struggles. regardless: thank you so much for the playthru! i absolutely love your comments and thoughts about FF games. it's been a blast. I'm going to miss it!
I really appreciate what they've been trying to do on a high level with this trilogy. So many 21st century adaptations take the easy road. Like the Harry Potter movies being too afraid to really try to do something "risky," ending up middling at best. Or Star Wars 7/8/9 fearfully retreating from their own attempts to try anything different, leaving us with soulless nostalgia pitches. This FF7 trilogy proves that not everyone is too scared to take risks. There's a potential for a strong reward here, but also the potential for significant failure, depending on how the 3rd game ends up. SPOILERS I think they realized that it wasn't possible to make the Aerith death scene as impactful as it was in the original. Even if they had done a beat-for-beat, scene-for-scene reproduction of it, it would have failed to deliver that gut punch that the original did (for the portion of the audience familiar with the OG FF7). So instead, they decided to put it to work, setting up things for the 3rd game. Doing it that way attenuated the scene and made it certain to have less emotional impact. I'm confident they knew this - the reality that, by removing the scene of Cloud carrying Aerith's body into the water, they'd taken out the most emotional part of the whole thing. As a partial "consolation prize," I think they gave us the Aerith date scene in the church, where she gives Cloud her white materia before accepting sacrifice at the hands of Sephiroth. That really was a great scene, IMO. Bottom line: will this pay off? It now depends on how they resolve these new uncertainties they introduced. My hypothesis is that the payoff for all of this is intended to be the Cloud-in-the-lifestream sequence from the original, which will likely be massively expanded like everything else in the Remake trilogy.
Wow, Zack really is the 'I'm still adjusting to finding out I was on team badguy but I joined to help people and fight by my own rigorous moral code' isn't he? 1:15:00 OH!!!! Sephiroth worked retail and fast food during holiday rushes. That makes sense. 1:25:19 You know, that actually explains that scene from _Advent Children._ They've both achieved a tautological superposition. I don't know if that's what the game is calling it, but it is implied during both Sephiroth's attack in the temple, and while Aerith is running through the forest. -Both- Aerith has become a fatewalker for lack of a better term. 1:35:01 I need to show the Tiny Bronco to my dad. He works with aircraft and I'm curious on his thoughts to it.
I'm impressed that Dan figured out that you had to hit the wings with their elemental weaknesses. That was not clear to me, and I had to eventually look up a guide to even realize that was the intention. Which in a way reflects how I feel about this ending in general. I'm generally on board now that I've had some time to sit and digest it a little. HOWEVER, I do wish that that the story was a little more clear about what was happening. I felt exactly the same about the scene at the end of the temple of the ancients and what went down with the black materia. I am perfectly fine with leaving the possibilities open for what happens down the line in future games, but in the actual moment-to-moment scenes, I really, REALLY wish the game was more explicit about the events that are presently occurring on screen instead of leaving it open to interpretation. The audience is left to figure out that Cloud is the only one who can see Aerith. He doesn't act confused or question it, and nobody really draws attention to the fact until the part about the sky. And while you can eventually put it together, the sheer confusion and doubt caused in that moment by the lack of any definitive answer left a very sour taste in my mouth. Maybe that's what the creators were going for, but in my opinion, the impression that any given scene in a game gives the player in the moment on first impression is just as important as the one that emerges only after time spent in contemplation, and it is definitely the more important of the two for the final scene in that game. I might be alone in this, and like I said, I did ultimately come around to liking the direction the game is going overall. I just really wish the game was designed in a way that made me feel that way when I was actually playing it. Tl;dr: I seem to have felt pretty much exactly how Dan felt by the end.
If I remember correctly the first 2 jenova fights in the original FF7 were birth and Life (and their wasn't a jenova fight in the shinra tower). So were those inaccurate translations and these are the actual names or is the remake trilogy giving them different names.
10:00 hey we can send one person to save aerith from sephiroth - hey let's send the guy who was acting literally like sephiroth and almost killed two of us already huh
I've enjoyed really much of these new FFVII games, both Remake and Rebirth. Though I'm still waiting Rebirth's PC release. Dan's commentary, humour and occasinal goofs make PlayFrame my favourite Let's Play channel. Big thank you Dan and Carrie for this huge playthrough! PS. Wouldn't it be awesome if we would get FFVII Lore Retrospective from Dan explaining and comparing FFVII Lore (original vs. new).
I understand where Dan (and many people who have talked about the ending are coming from). It is confusing from a plot and narrative level, and if that is your initial reaction I can’t argue against that. After I finished Remake I felt the same way. But I reflected on my relation with a lot of “confusing” works of art, and specifically that of David Lynch is probably the best example of what I mean. A film like Mulholland Drive is a miserable experience if you watch it to understand the plot, if you feel your way through it the film can be a transcendent experience. I took a deep breath going into this final fight and it I loved it. It was both unsettling and immensely beautiful in a way I have never experienced, but like good art reflects how it feels to look down a familiar yet uncanny path in life (no promises await at journeys end). those emotions I experienced will live forever as I think about and revisit this ending [whereas a plot twist can only be experienced once (not to say they are not worthwhile)]. I think the more time people spend with this game and ending they will come to see this explicitly or not - I think that’s why many people (including myself) have come around on remake. - I don’t think this point is articulated the best, but there are plenty of people who talk about this in relation to Lynch if this connected to anyone (I like Maggie Mae Fish’s Twin Peaks video) 😊
1:32:35 this part confused me at first, but now I think it’s just Sephiroth using the Jenova powers to confuse Rufus specifically by masquerading as Glenn. Which tells me that they were somehow close, but we never saw that in the currently released First Soldier story in EC, nor does it look like we will anytime soon given the next chapter for that will be around Sephiroth and Angeal. Best guess is they got close because of Rufus’ shenanigans in Before Crisis and his founding of rebel forces to take out his father, but still just speculation. Anyway, my monster length comment is coming soon. :3c
Well. Advent Children still has the best version of One Winged Angel. But that aside, very interesting changes to the original story structure to get us where we are. Though it makes me wonder how the next game is going to go. How much they'll add and alter. Though I'm curious if they'll have made it available to PC by then. (the sales were not all that)
Rebirth and original comparison by Playframe episode numbers: Start to 42:39, 1:25:43 to 1:30:05, and 1:37:42 to 1:38:53 - episode 23 Whoo boy what an eventful finale. And yeah, Dan I think nails it when talking about the concerns around this game's ending. You can certainly have an ending with ambiguity, that's up for discussion and debate. It probably shouldn't be at the end of the second part of three though.
Finale, eh? It seems it's time. 0:53 Well, that certainly eased the minds of a few commenters. 10:28 I do like that platform's design a lot. 11:19 Familiar, but with extra residents. 14:02 I respect going in with the Buster sword. 14:41 We get to hear the prayer now! 17:17 That was different. His entrance this time was spectacular. 38:15 Cait, are these bodies Phoenix Down operated or something? Is there a coin-op model you can bring? 40:11 that actually doesn't bother me in and of itself. It's the "it's just immune now" phases that annoy me. 44:15 I cannot see anything but Ewan McGregor's Obi-Wan in Zack's pose. Also, I have no clue wtf is going on anymore. 45:40 Tell that to Psy-Ops. That game was half tutorial popups and flashbacks. 50:06 Uh... okay, game. 57:38 Yes Barret, yes it is. 1:00:42 I don't know, Zack. Not even the slightest. 1:19:10 It appears to hurt exactly as much as Max HP - 1. 1:21:29 The longer this fight goes on, the more the arena feels very FF16. Also, he's doing his own version of Hades's move from KH, which amuses me greatly. 1:42:33 Extra option: Aerith is dead, but occupying a similar space in Cloud's head as Sephiroth. He can see and interact with her, but nobody else can. 1:43:15 CID IS VOICED BY J MICHAEL TATUM!? I would literally have never guessed. Also, how the fuck does he keep popping up in the same franchises as some of my favourite female characters? 1:55:04 Personally, I feel less "confused" and more something I lack the word for right now. I'm asking what the point was. I followed the threads, pieced together an interpretation of what happened that makes sense to me, but it is immediately followed with "but... why?", which I don't think is a good place to be at credits. Yes, I know what I said earlier in this comment block. 1:56:25 I will contest that: Recently, in the Shadowbringers series, there was a big deal about a specific Mi'qote being revealed as a major player. I have no clue who he is, what his tie to Allag is, nothing. He's just *there* and I don't know *why*. Perhaps more accurately, I don't know why that Mi'qote is significant beyond what he's done in Shadowbringers. Apparently he's involved with an optional raid series? I guess? I feel like the WoL in that scene is in a completely different postcode to where I was.
@@timothystamm3200 So you're saying that they pulled a character from about 9yrs ago out of a hat and expected everyone to recognize him? Shadowbringers is about 10yrs into FF14's lifecycle, right? I can't think of a single piece of media where a true one-off character is pulled out 9 *years* later like this. Even my experience with Dr Who and TNG doesn't have this problem.
@the6ofdiamonds Harry Potter brought back a character at the beginning of the fifth book after not mentioning them since the first book. I'm pretty sure the fifth came out in 2003, and the first was published in 1997. Also, I'm pretty sure the old man who owns the house in the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe isn't mentioned again until the sixth book of the Chronicles of Narnia, the Magician's Nephew. That's 1950 to 1955. Also, the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit came out around that time, and then the Silmarillion was published in the seventies. I expect they thought that people who have been replaying raids in roulette would remember the tower and thus G'raha. That and the flashback after is probably all they thought was necessary. Though do remember they hadn't talked about Lahabrea for years before he started coming up again during Shadowbringers and the late Stormblood patches, same with the Warriors of Darkness. P.S. the Hobbit came out in 1937, and the Fellowship of the Ring came out in 1954. So Bilbo went without mention for seventeen years. P.P.S. The Silmarillion wasn't published until 1977. Twenty-two years after the initial publishing of the Lord of the Rings.
@@timothystamm3200 That's secondary to what Dan had said. Dan's point was, by my understanding, specific to when you first experience the event. Not just "you can piece it together later".
@the6ofdiamonds and I agreed by pointing out that there should have been more of a reminder as the reveal occurred, at least if you had done Crystal Tower, which now everyone has to do. I realize my memory is an exception, as is some people's ability to remember faces. P.S. I think they thought the constant replaying of old content that happens in raid and other instance roulettes would remind people of the Crystal Tower and thus G'raha Tia.
In the middle of the jenova battle (so like 1/4 through runtime) and I had the thought: Wait, so if there are multiple worlds, which splinter at major decisions, and assuming that the white whispers don't like sephiroph's intentions around the confluence, does that mean (in each world) the whispers' job is basically to ensure the boundaries between worlds are upheld ("fate" and each world has its own, making them distinct from each other) and minimizing the risk/possibility of uniting? (Unsure what/how much it matters moving forward, but it's a pretty cool premise.) ... maybe it's something addressed later in this or Dan poses a similar thought. I just didn't want to lose this realization, if it wasn't brought up and I got distracted by [gestures wildly] Edit during the end ramble: At first, I was like "what do you mean? Basically all they did was expand the scope (from "end of world" to "end of worldS). Makes total sense!" And him not being clear on what they wanted us to feel at the end "confusion! Unease! Worry! It was in the music, the acting, the juxtapositions! They seemed pretty clear on that." But then I thought more about my feelings in the moment and I was very confused and disoriented as events were playing out. And I'm still unclear on the motivations of several parties. Which, while mystery is great, it's not an ideal state for part 2 of 3 in a story. I feel like we should "get" more of it than we do. And I do smell the scent of "subverting audience expectations" off of it, which can be good in measured doses. Confusion and unease are valid feelings to evoke in an audience, but you better know how to balance/flavor it in a way that an audience can still want to follow through to the end. I'm still very interested in the conclusion of this, mostly to see the grand thesis statement of all of this. Because it very much is a meta commentary. And I don't doubt it'll be beautiful. But hopefully they'll tie this off thoroughly. (Anyway on to finish the video)
My feeling overall is that this game, and this ending, are a loving tribute to the character of Aerith. This version of events doesn't undo the original tragedy (either in or out of the story, as in our world, the original game still exists, and in the story, remember, _it already happened)._ But it gives Aerith something of a say in it. It gives her a voice. It lets her say "goodbye." It's not the same, but it wasn't meant to be. They were never going to be able to recreate that moment, because part of the power of that original moment was that it was so shocking. You can't really shock people with the same moment using the same character, especially when that moment has become one of the most famous spoilers in the medium, the "Luke, I am your father" of video games. So they didn't try. Instead, they did exactly what they've been doing this whole time; create something new that exists in conversation with the old. I've elaborated on it elsewhere, but to sum it up, I think Aerith's arc in this game is essentially about accepting her own death and choosing not to change it, because she knows the timeline where she dies is the one where all her friends live. So much focus is given near the end of the game to how much Aerith just absolutely adores this ragtag group of misfits, and how the most important thing in the world to her is that THEY are safe. And it's not like she never falters; there are a couple of moments in the game where we see that she's genuinely really upset add all of the things she never got to {and will never get to) experience. She's still human. But in the end , she chooses selflessness, putting her in both thematic and literal opposition to Sephiroth. And maybe time-traveling Aerith moving through the five stages of grief is a little much for you, I get that. But we've been in time travel territory since Remake; at some point, you've either gotta accept that as part of the ride, or get off the train. And me? I'm here until the end of the line.
"at some point, you've either gotta accept that as part of the ride, or get off the train" -- Are you seriously suggesting that everyone who feels differently should not play part 3? "maybe time-traveling Aerith moving through the five stages of grief is a little much for you, I get that" I haven't seen this complaint out there at all. The arrogance, the condescension. You need to touch some grass my dude.
@@DCHutch8 no, I'm saying the opposite. I literally do get it. I hated the ending of the first game. I was so fucking mad. But I dunno, man, I realized at some point that it was just kinda pointless. I had two choices; I could either stay mad about it going forward and be immediately annoyed and unhappy every time it came up in the next game, which it inevitably would, or I could chill and see where they were going with it. And ultimately, I decided that I liked enough of what they were doing with all the other stuff enough to give them some leeway for the parts that clearly weren't done yet. You don't have to do that, you don't have to do anything. I just used a silly train metaphor as a nod to Barret from the OG.
There’s a lot that happens here but the one thing I want to touch on is, I think it’s cool how everyone starts the fight with Jenova with their Limit Break, except Cloud. Because why would he? He saved her, he saw her alive! She will later tell him to go after Sephiroth and everything, a thing Aerith definitely wants him to do and isn’t specifically the thing she told him not to do
Tbh I suspect the reason for the lack of LB for Cloud is bc he used it trying(?) to save her. Goes into the competing theories I’m waiting to post until we’re further in lol.
@XTheUnchosenOneX I think Cloud did save her, thus creating a new timeline yet at that very moment Sephiroth merged all timelines, hence why he laughs. At this point however, the timelines merging causes Cloud to see memories from both timeliness making him think he saved her but she is actually dead.
@@aytony4090I don’t think there are “timelines” in any meaningful sense of the word, those are essentially purgatories created out of the hopes and dreams of those who returned to the Lifestream, and who returned to the Lifestream in that moment? Aerith did. I actually think trying to piece together the exact mechanics of all the worlds is unnecessary, as their primary purpose in the story is to be a metaphor for Cloud’s increasingly fractured mental state. That’s why we see more and more of them get created as Cloud falls apart more and more. I really hadn’t planned to get into this but I kind of brought it on myself here
@@aytony4090 I think Jenova has taken on the form of Aerith - earlier than when one might think. I believe Sephiroth is saying he underestimated Jenova, not Aerith. 1:13:21 But... I also think the ending "goodbye" comes from the yellow flower on the screen's lower left, so... 1:40:43
No I fully understand, Dan. I don't think you're just angry that they changed things. Personally I'm really enjoying a little of the mistery and where they are taking the story, but I also admit I thought I knew where they were taking the story till now and I'm not so sure anymore. I'd expect we'd have understood some important things by now, but I don't, at least not completly. I really think the next game will be what makes or breaks the story. If the ending works, I expect we will be very impressed, but if it doesn't or if we still can't understand it after we finish the game I think we will all be very disappointed...
slight potential spoiler I'm betting they've reserving the actual impact of loss hitting Cloud for a particular scene from disc 2 in the next game. Anyhow, the 3rd game has to come full circle in a sensible way upon first experiencing it - for this new direction for the trilogy to be worth it
Thanks Dan and Carrie for the amazing playthrough! It's been a joy to watch all the way to the end (boy, this game is big). And yeah, I have similar thoughts about the game and the ending in particular - loved how they've developed the characters and the world in incredible ways, but I can't really feel like I have an opinion on the ending until we can see whether it gets a satisfactory payoff in the last game or not
A few things. First off, I loved this game and this playthrough. Thank you Dan. Ending spoilers all over the place below. Second, I agree with you about a lot of the stuff you said in the credits. I liked Aerith in these games so much more than in the original. She had so many great moments, and I especially loved the relationship they built with Tifa. So I was expecting her death to feel so much more terrible. And instead, I guess she's like a ghost in the lifestream or something who's going to keep talking to Cloud in the next game, Advent Children-style? And I did honestly think there was a chance that they did what they were teasing since the end of Remake and she would live - the playground rumour about a way for her to survive finally come true. I appreciate that narratively, this would be super difficult to make work, but I did honestly think it was possible. I was even half-convinced it was going to happen when she 'woke up'. All that said, I look forward to the third game and your playthrough very eagerly. I'll see you there.
I really wish I could send a message to all JRPG writers: there's a difference between "mysterious" and "confusing", and if your player is confused during what's supposed to be the big emotional climax of your story, you've screwed up. In order to be fully emotional engaged in a story, the audience can't feel like they don't even understand what's happening. Confusion will undermine everything else you're trying to do, regardless of how cool the music and visuals are, and should be avoided like the plague unless you're deliberately doing some kind of avant-garde surrealist work. You know what's never happened? You've never been playing something and thought to yourself, "Wow, this is pretty cool. I sure wish I understood what was happening less." Edit: lol Dan basically said all this during the credits, this was me ranting in the middle of the episode
i don't really feel confused or unfulfilled here so im just gonna dump a rant of how i feel. although completely understandable dan, and I can see where you're coming from, and the way you put it is very good. So, pretty obviously, one of if not the big thing going into this game was will aerith die? and obviously a lot of people wanted it to go one way and a lot of people wanted it to go other way. This ending feels to me like the devs went huh well how about we do something completely different and give you both. which imo is repeating themselves from the first game a bit but also committing to their decision of doing what they want? while also being like hey this is what you get when you're indecisive it's not that great is it huh? i dunno if its worth sacrificing an emotional moment for that kind of gotcha but also like. we (and i mean pretty much everyone who heard of ff7) all know aerith is supposed to die here. even with all the additions and much sweeter dynamic between her and cloud i do not think this would have been such a crushing moment. (and if she straight up didn't die i feel like it would not be a moment at all, they seemed to have understood that with cait sith and made that "revival" much better) And finally, cloud. Given they have been showing his conditions much more throughout the game, making him go this much more distant - literally disconnected at the end is imo a nice way to "fix it", give that extra tension at the end. I think that within this story they decided on we are quite in sync with Cloud's feelings which is obviously what they want us to be and i think that's good storytelling. slightly if not very unsure of what is real and what is not, but still needing to go farther.
speaking as someone who never played the original and has been viewing this as a stand alone product, I was deeply disheartened when the finale of remake came around because I had hoped to experience a retelling of what was one of the most beloved Final Fantasy games ever made, one that I had missed growing up. Ironically, when they 'changed fate' in the first game, all they did was tie this game down to the original, because now the tangle of the alternate world plot is making it harder to proceed without knowledge of the original. From the reactions of this comment section, it seems like even people who do have the requisite knowledge are confused about where things are heading now. What really kills me about this is it seems like the most convoluted, awkward justification for changing things in a game. Remakes should change and expand on things. The fact they they needed to add the whispers and alternate realities and constant flashes of characters that newcomers to the game won't recognize to justify giving side characters more personality or characters meeting in different circumstances that don't really alter the main plot arc baffles me. It's like they're fighting for creative freedom only to turn around and refuse to actually use it, and the end result is worse for both old and new fans.
Black robes, alternate worlds and timelines, characters that have even less clue than the player on what's going on... at this point I wouldn't be surprised if Sora, Goofy and Donald appeared out of nowhere
It finally clicked for me!! FF7R... IS HOMESTUCK!! 😂 - Doomed timelines - Rabid fans - Slightly too big cast of amazing characters - Incredible music and cutscenes - Bonkers convoluted story threads no one has real answers for - An experience that drags a little too long in the middle - Ending that feels equal parts satisfying and disappointing - Fathomless missed potential fans will all feel in different ways for years to come It explains my paradoxical love and hate of the whole beautiful mess, too. 😋
I've been saying for years that if you are a fan of Homestuck you'll probably be a fan of Kingdom Hearts and vice versa and yeah the Doomed Timelines immediately made me think of Homestuck when I played Rebirth.
In addition to all that, the ultimate villain (so far) is an entity that wants things to go things his way and will enforce a sort of “canon events” upon the organic multiverse. Caliborn literally forces the story of SBURB/SGRUB to serve as his rise and neverending monument to nonexistence, and Sephiroth wants Cloud alienated (as he was in FF7) to be manipulated so that he can gains greater multiversal power.
So my issues with this game are largely minor, Dyne's whole segment being one of the more major ones, and the rest being stuff like them not using a remix of Birth of a God for the Sephiroth Reborn fight (I really hope they find a way to stick it into part 3, given that I don't think they'll reuse Sephiroth Reborn for the semifinal boss, having used him here in Rebirth)
Well, good journey It was a very fun watch In the original pretty much any character could do anything so Aerith's lost was mostly an emotional one I wonder how they will balance the third game around not having a mage. Neither Vincent nor Cid look like they could be a decicated spellcaster
@@turquoisemaple To be fair the phoenix down doesn't actually resurrect someone, it brings them back from total exhaustion. When your HP reaches zero you don't die, you just get knocked down.
Spoilers for episode and opinion following: First off, thanks Dan for the amazing let’s play. Always a joy to see how you interact with these games and stories. I personally love this game and how the game brings out so much more of the characters and adds to their personalities, and is one of the few open world games I love in spite of the fact that I don’t actually like open world games. However, I HATE the changes they made to the ending, specifically relating to the Aeriths death. Nothing the game has added related to alternate worlds or Zacks presence or any of that has been worth ruining the gut punch of Aeriths death to be replaced with spectacle and confusion. Hopefully the third game makes these elements actually satisfying, but right now, I have to think that all the new stuff (as far as actual plot points, not the character interactions) is actually making the story worse.
At this point, I sincerely think the third game is already ruined. They will either double back on this point to claim it is all in Aerith’s head, waffle like they do so now, or make things far more unexpected in a way that ruins everything. I feel that the writing is on the wall despite the fact that we are years away from the sequel of this game.
Spoilers - Conversating about the end of the game At some point, I started wondering if all the convergence of timelines and splitting and the crap (don't have a better way to define it, sorry) ended up making it so Aerith actually survived (not get to the lifestream, but actual being alive, just like Zac), but in a broken timeline where she can only communicate with Cloud. But, tbh, this kind of ending is so open to interpretation can be considered - dead, alive, in Cloud's head... But definitely, they did spend their sweet time without actually explaining that the Crossroad of Fate of the ending of Remake was actually a thing and that multiple dimensions existed in parallel on the planet (a la Everything Everywhere All At Once). I kinda understand not explaining it at that point (question mark? At least it would seem plausible as the cast wouldn't know), but they could've started actually exploring it more clearly before Sephiroth's explainer 20 minutes into this episode - 80 minutes before the end. Though, I do have to wonder hard if all the Crossroads of Fate part is closed and if the story is to be following more clearly (as in, the timeline to be is closed and cannot be changed even if the team would not wish the outcome), or whether Sephiroth is trying to set the Fate of him winning become the only path forward, but the ramificated design of the planet is still intact. PS.: 129 hours. GEEZ (though I clocked 200 in Xenoblade Chronicles 3 lmao)
I always wondered why there were no real spoilers about the ending, and it's because not even the people who've played it know what happens! I'm surprised to hear Dan say that he was in the same headspace at the end of Remake, as he was at the end of Rebirth. Remake built up the notion of fate/destiny as the cosmic or metaphysical counterpart to poverty, oppression, and the environment as a common good that is being destroyed through mismanagement and pollution. Picking winners and losers, while being completely inscrutable. They establish this right from the start, on the train, after the first bombing mission. Self-determination, freedom from the control of another, freedom from the status quo, goes hand-in-hand with everything the cast had been doing up to this point. We can quibble about the exact motivations of the characters on the expressway, but the decisions they make and the implications are clear, especially if the player knows the story. Red lays it out explicitly during the battle: if we want a chance at something better, we have to fight for it. Zack's survival has obvious implications, even if his circumstances aren't clear. By contrast, it's tough to find fault with what Dan says about this ending. After the first fake out, I internally congratulated the team. If she's going to die, I won't begrudge them the chance to troll us, but it just kept happening. It felt like those Turkish ice cream sellers. At least those guys give you the ice cream eventually! This ending contained at least five times as much Sephiroth rambling as the previous game's, but none of the payoff. It almost feels like a betrayal. That being said, I've come to view Rebirth as the literal antithesis of Remake. Not the same story broken in two, but two stories in conversation. Every part of this game is about how unreachable and inescapable the past is, how inevitable some things are, and how our individual choices might not matter in the grand scheme of things, and about legacy. The cast mostly sits out of world events, as the planet marches towards war. Even Rufus loses control as Sephiroth usurps his position in the interim Wutai government, disguised as Glenn. At least all of the new stuff in Gongaga and Cosmo Canyon feels more connected to Remake, especially the Gi as refugees from a natural(?) disaster, rejected by the lifestream and a xenophobic Cetran society. The hope now is that the team can produce a satisfying conclusion in part three. On a lighter note, does this ending contain the first depiction of setting materia in a piece of equipment ever?
I do not love us having Aerith's death both ways, makes it lose its impact. The third game could salvage this for sure but it feels like a massive waste if she dies in such a fuzzy noncommittal way.
1:35:11 Possibly an art/animation question: what is going on with that specific thing in that person's hand? More specific spoilery details: Said thing appears to be the empty materia Aerith handed Cloud. Makes sense, he did put it in hos pocket. It looks clear or reflective from one angle, then it appears an opaque black from another. Does it look different when the camera angle changes because we see Cloud's glove through the item? Is it a different Cloud with a different materia? Is it half and half?
I think that opening will make some people very happy, heh! Bold move to include a tutorial at the very end of the game. XD Platforming in a final boss fight? What is this, Devil May Cry 4?
I appreciate your opinion on the way they directed Aerith’s death, I feel cheated out of the emotional ending this could have been and instead of sad I feel confused and frustrated.
I agree with Dan, the ending is more confusing than anything. I can't feel any emotions if I can't begin to comprehend what actually is happening. My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined. Edit: Thank you Dan for the playthrough. I enjoyed it thoroughly.
47:46 - Dan, haven't you learned anything from this crew? In this world weapons have the inverse effectiveness that they have in the real world. Guns have to be fired hundreds of times to leave a scratch, swords need dozens of slashes to be effective, but going in with fists and feet is DEVASTATING! So yeah, Zach's knows what's up! Also... anyone else have a brain fart when the Assess said "Unable to read" for Sepheroth? I was like "What? But we saw him reading all those books at Shinra Mansion! How is he suddenly illiterate?!" 1:23:23 - Cloud: "Why is he laughing?" - Aerith: "Because he knows this isn't over." - Me: "Oh come on! How many more phases does this movie-length boss fight have?! 😩" 1:27:03 - I can't help but feel like this entire Re-7 saga exists purely so that everyone's wish fulfillment of Aerith living can come true. I mean the meta-plot of these games is literally fighting against the preordained plot of the original game. Aerith lives, Zach lives, everyone lives... at least for now... in some universe or other... so that everything happens as in the original while also totally changing it all. MULTIVERSE!!!
Glad you brought up FFXIV as a counter-example to this type of storytelling. It really is a master work in long-term storytelling. Sure, it leaves mysteries at the end of some points (e.g. the Ascians at the end of ARR), but those don't take away from the emotional beats. We might not know what Lahabrea is, but we know SPOILER is saved from him. And we do end up getting satisfying answers, too. Which is something Kingdom Hearts didn't give us, and is something I fear the Remake project might not. Let's hope it ends up like FFXIV and this all makes perfect sense by the end.
I have no hope. At this point, bad habits are set in stone, and good habits are fleeting and in the hand of one or a few people swatted away so easily.
Some Rebirth vs Original comparison statistics: 79 (1 - 79) Playframe episodes vs 14 (10 - 23) Playframe episodes - that's an average of 5.6 Rebirth episodes per OG episode However, because of the oodles of side-content in Rebirth, I estimate only roughly 51 of those episodes were covering main story stuff, which would bring the total down to a more respectable 3.6 episodes per episode Going by time, Dan spent approximately 129h25m playing Rebirth (including significant time off camera). By comparison, to reach pretty much this same point in the original playthrough was 29h19m, (including time spent off camera grinding iirc) which includes the stuff that was covered by remake. Dan never opened the Save Screen on camera during what would be the end of Remake/beginning of Rebirth in the OG, so best I can count, the stretch of the original covered by this playthrough was about 11 hours (not counting time spent grinding). So that's about 11 hours in Rebirth per hour of the original. Special shoutouts: - Episodes 72 through 78, the longest stretch of episodes (7) all covering what was one episode for the original playthrough (episode 22, The Temple of the Ancients) - Episode 12, which was covered (some of) the same stuff as episode 12 of the OG - Episode 20 of the OG (Cid), which has not been directly covered by Rebirth, the only episode thus far to have that honour - Episodes 2, 14, 18, 21, 28, 29, 37, 57, 69, and 72, for sharing a name with the episode of the OG they cover (Alas episode 44, you didn't cover any relevant main story stuff, so you get a dishonourable mention)
Materia's power comes from absorbing the memories, skills, and experiences of its bearers. Consider what it would mean if the Clear Materia is a blank slate--it's a vacuum waiting to be filled, and Aerith wears it throughout all these events. The Clear Materia would be full of _Aerith_ (whatever she has become). Might that be the source of Cloud's ability to see her, as well as echoes of the other worlds?
Dan's reaction to the ending is just the opening narration of Kingdom Hearts. "I've been having these weird thoughts lately. Like, is any of this for real, or not?" So I'm gonna call that yes, it is real, and I hope the story doesn't go full KH dumb. I'm not ruling out Caius Ballad showing up from a portal though.
Now I can talk without fear of spoilers. Most importantly thanks a ton Dan and Carie I loved the playthrough and always looked forward to it every day. So I thought Cloud was going to kill Aeirth and take the black Materia but I'm glad they did it this way. What I think happened is that Aeirth is the sort of world between worlds where Sephiroth took clouds when he was talking about joining the worlds together again. I think she can still be saved in part 3 and Cloud and see her and the kind of realm tear from this world into the space between worlds. I do agree that I wish the motivations of the characters were a bit clearer sometimes, especially at the end here. But what do I know lol. ultimately how dare you Square Enix make me have such a crush on Aerith lol. Thanks again Dan and Carie
That was a lot of video game. Thanks for the playthrough Dan and editing from Carrie. I did really enjoy the game, mostly because of the amazing character work the team did. Getting to see more personality with the animation, voice acting and the interactions was wonderful and made me love the characters even more. The ending was a bit lolwut and maybe it will all make sense when the whole remake series is complete. It does make for an unfortunately less than satisfying end to this chapter of the story though.
1:21:24 🍐 1:27:56 it's a terrible day for rain. 1:32:58 the Weapons have different colors, could these be the baby Ruby and Emerald? 1:34:50 Cid humming Prelude is an extremely nice touch, I must say
Having already played it watching the ending now, with the knowledge of LOTS of analyses and theories, I'm not really confused anymore. But honestly I think that was the point and I'm mostly invested in how they're gonna wrap this up it part 3, because I feel like that's where the true emotional gutpunch (and some of the obvious missing stuff here) is gonna land. If we got it now, in the same way as the OG, I'm not sure I would have felt it as much. Still cried like a baby. 😂 ALSO GODDAMN THEY ARE COOKING WITH THE JENOVA THEMES. ❤ Also also good to see Barrett finally sticking the landing at the very end.
Sat on the ending for a day so far. I think my thoughts can be summed up thusly: all the Final Fantasy 7 games have weirdly emotionally confusing endings so this one is par for the course. OG FF7 ended with people not really sure if the planet was saved or not, particularly with the epilogue with Red XIII. you could take it charitably and say everything ended well but the game itself doesn't give you that answer, and so it ends in a kind of confusingly weird place where we don't really get the answers to what happened until the movie came out years later. FF7 Remake is also really confusing, like it's inspiring that they broke destiny or whatever but then Zack shows up out of nowhere bringing Cloud into the city just as the group is leaving so it's like, what is happening? is this related to breaking fate somehow? does that mean Zack is alive in an alternate dimension, or are we in an alternate dimension? so if anything, FF7 Rebirth gives us probably the clearest ending yet; we know that Cloud is not alright, and is seeing things that aren't there. we know that Zack is alive in an alternative timeline to the one we're in, and so is Aerith, and that they both have some influence on the world that Cloud is in. this still leaves us with questions like, what is real, but again, that's par for the course with these games. "what am I supposed to be feeling?" seems to be the favourite question every FF7 ends with
I want to go against the crowd and say that I enjoy the recent Square-Enix nebulous, wacky storytelling, in small doses. I'm not that much into kingdom hearts (i know the story thanks to Dan), or I have any interest in theory crafting. I just enjoy piecing together the implications and the ramifications and having to run to catch up to the story. I think that's still an effective storytelling, even if not on an emotional level. I'm keeping up with FF XIV on the channel, but even if everyone sings its praises, I've never felt that engaged in its story, even during the big reveals. Maybe this plays a part in that.
I will say, as someone for whom the original Final Fantasy VII was a very formative experience, I agree with your critic at the end there, Dan. I'm cautiously hopeful as to where this is going to go in the finale. That said, I do feel like the consequences of Aerith's actions here didn't carry the same emotional impact as they did in the original, but I am largely onboard with them taking things in a new direction. Especially if they continue to play into the concept of alternate timelines (or whatever they may be) playing into things. One interesting thing worth noting: with the little "date" with Aerith, it seems interesting to me they made a point of having that pin picked out for her. That, to me at least, implies that we will likely see Aerith again in the third game, and that there are at least two versions of Aerith in play here; the "Prime" Aerith and the Aerith from Zack's timeline. It'll be interesting to see where they go with that. I do also absolutely agree with you about taking a great deal of joy from the ways they've built upon the characterizations of the cast and the world in general. I really hope they do a DLC for this in the intermission while we wait for Pt 3.
I think this game is great when it cares about characters, but as soon as it tries to talk about the big picture it just can't seem to do anything but raising questions without ever delivering payoffs (a bit like Kingdom hearts or recent Doctor Who). And I think this complete divorce from the themes of the story of this big picture """"mystery"""" really ruins my enjoyment of both.
As a throw back to episode 1 should have named the Finale "Dan is Confused Again" 😂 Yeah the ending here I'm guessing the white whispers were Aerith's or the planets maybe? I think two realities were created at the moment Sephiroth impaled Aerith and because Cloud has crossed world now he can commune with the living Aerith who was also able to come and help fight with Cloud during the final Phase. "Are you gonna be OK getting back?" Is basically heading back to her world. This is the only sense I can make of that while situation.
My thoughts on wtf is going on at the end: Aerith has gone full force ghost, like Yoda. A real, persistent presence that can still affect the world, even if only through her magic. Why I think so: She can see her other friends mourning her, so she has a presence in the main timeline, not just a second timeline only Cloud can see. When she touched Nanaki, he felt something, and knew it was her... though Aerith also felt Zack across timelines, so that's not conclusive. Although maybe that's not a meaningful difference? The planet itself seems to have a fuller connection to the alternate timelines, and Aerith has a special, unique connection to the planet. "Force ghost because parallel timeslines" is still "force ghost".
