Hey everyone- it’s a very popular comment that the leg on a coaxial indicator is in fact adjustable. All I can tell you is, the instructions for mine say not to touch that bolt. Like many of you, I tried anyway and found it to be so tight that it couldn’t be removed without risk of damage. Likely Loctited in place. Maybe other brands of this are different, but that is how mine is.
Yeah probably because adjusting it introduces more cosine error. I think mine was just cheap and not loctited. I do wonder why the one side has that bevel if not for that
Very nice video, Quinn. The instructions of my centering indicator states to "adjust rocker friction joint to make the feeler contact with the workpiece". So you should not touch the bolt because it is set loose enough to be able to adjust the joint but tight enough to stay in place during the measurement. Adjusting the joint though still feels like you are forcing something you should not do on a precision measuring instrument.
It really is a slip joint, even if yours doesn't feel like it wants to move! I've used several brands, from cheap and nasty knock-offs to genuine Blake's and they all adjust.
Correct, that Bolt and nut is factory adjusted for a tight Friction slip. Just like the the Tip on a test indicator, you can push it past it's measurement range, and get the friction slip to adjust. It does have an mechanical Adjustment limit. in one direction it will stop close straight up and down. in the other Direction it should go almost a full 45 degrees. Just needs a bit of constant force to get it to start to slip. look at the angle that is cut on on it, that will clue you in to which direction it can be adjusted. So don't try to force it the wrong way if it's already against it's mechanical limit. Yes, it is a friction adjustment... Push on it...
LOL "...the instructions for mine say not to touch that bolt. Like many of you, I tried anyway..." Oh, really? I wonder why they would say that? That can't be right, and why doesn't the leg just adjust like other indicators?... RTFM in case of emergency ONLY!
Another wonderfully instructional video. Two points about the coaxial indicator. 1. While it may or may not be recommended, the indicating arm can absolutely be adjusted in or out similar to a test indicator. Theres just enough friction at the joint to move the arm and it will hold it's place. You can hold the indicator body while you move it or install the white plastic ring that the unit ships with to keep it from moving. 2. While the ability to use the coax indicator under power is novel, I've found that it's much faster to just swing the spindle by hand from side to side. Then you just split the difference in readings similar to the test indicator. I use coax indicators nearly every day and these techniques have never given me problems. Just my two cents. Thanks for making all your amazing content!!
I really enjoy your videos and I always learn stuff from watching them. From what I understand, the indicator body doesn't need to be in line with the spindle. This is because you are rotating the spindle to take the measurement, thus the circle the indicator tip is moving will always be centered on the center line of the spindle since it's the spindle that is rotating. So you don't need to hold the indicator body in a collet or any other precision mechanism. That's why things like the InDicol holder you can clamp on the quill is so handy. Also, a trap I ran into, the quill lock actually will always push the spindle over a few thou, so if you find a center with it locked, then make sure any operations you do also have it locked. Or if you are planning to drill with the quill, then do the indicating without the quill locked.
When finding the hole with an indicator you don't have to worry about looking at the back side of the dial as long as the hole is perfectly round. After finding the center on the x axis, move the y axis to get the same dial reading. If the three readings are exactly the same, the fourth must also be identical.
Quinn: first, let me say that I really appreciate a young lady like you showing an interest in the machine shop profession. You’re articulate, pleasant and well-disciplined speaking voice shows your confidence and willingness to share your knowledge about the subject matter of your illustrations. I am a retired journeyman tool and die maker with just under 50 years of experience at 19+ manufacturing and vocational institutions of employment, both full-time and part-time. I am presently the lead machine shop instructor at engineering college in my community. I plan on referring my class to some of your videos. I enjoy critiquing them. I wish there was some way that I could speak with you for 15 minutes to help you with the subtle imperfections in your videos. As a small suggestion please show the thousands of an inch like this .005 and not 5 thou. Also, you are drill Chuck may be Jacobs, but it is an Albech design chuck or quick change drill Chuck. Thank you. Please keep up the good work. Rick
Hey I've been watching your channel for a little bit and I feel like I've watched you really come into your own style and format. Thank you for making videos that are both excellent and unique to you.
Old school :) I was taught to use a sticky pointer. Which was a piece of plasticine with a pin stuck in it. It worked like a wobbler. I have a wobbler now. I’m lusting after one of those fancy concentric things :) Funny you published this now as I was doing this exact thing today repairing a machine vice.
There is one more dirt cheap method, laser. Those $5 doller laser pointer using watch battery, you can put it in the chuck and it will give you good indication. The only problem is, sometimes the red dot is too big, you can make a cover with paper/rubber/leather. Center it on you lathe/mill and use the smallest needle you can find to punch a hole on that cover. Depending how small the hole is, how accurate it will be. Loose your vice little bit, move the parts instead of the axis, press dro zero, It will reduce your tuning to seconds, but it only work on punch marks, not for holes already excisted.
I may be a bit too old since I am retired I have more time than money. The wiggler you mentioned and demonstrated has another method that I like even better. If you take the pointed wiggler (for a punch mark) and place it in the punch mark with the machine off, then lift the quill and turn on the machine, it will swing around since it is off center. So, stabilize the wiggler as you mentioned and get it very close, place the wiggler in the punch mark and turn the machine on and lift, now leave the machine on and stabilize the pointer and adjust your X or Y then lower the quill into the mark again then lift. Repeat until there is no run out of the wiggler when you lift it from the mark. I do the same thing with the ball wiggler when I have a hole that is smaller than the ball. There you go. Another method. I use this so often that my drill has a wiggler and so does my mill. I am quite fast at this method and a lot less set up and fussiness of the tools I can't afford any way. lol Fortunately, I don't need 3/10ths of accuracy for my projects.
I absolutely love your videos. This one in particular I found very helpful. I am a journeywoman machinist and have been working in the trade for almost 7 years now. I have acquired and purchased many tools. One of which is a coaxial indicator. One issue I struggle with is my set ups and I am always looking for ways to improve. I have never run the indicator under power but this is definitely how I will be doing moving forward. It is a much faster way. You do an amazing job with these videos. Your explanations are so easy to understand and very entertaining! I wish I would have discovered your channel sooner.
That was really fantastic. I'm just a hobbyist with a PM25, but I think there may be a feature on your coaxial indicator that you might have skipped past. This little thing has helped me in the past anyway, especially if I'm restricted in Z travel but need to indicate a bigger hole than the small rod would usually work for. The coaxial does have a friction type adjustment (mine does anyway, and looks exacty like yours) like the needle of a test indicator, but you just need to loosen the Philips screw and nut at the lower fulcrum, readjust slightly for a bigger circle, then retighten. I know there are arguments for days on the forums about how the rod length and angle effect the actual reading on the dial, but zero or little needle movement is good enough for any of my projects regardless if I did something to desensitize the actual tool measurement in a slight way. Maybe you are aware of this adjustment, but just wanted to put it out there in case another person might not have known. Thanks for the video!
Thanks for showing how the coaxial indicator works. My preferred method is an edge finder with a 0.2" machined end on one end and a pointed end on the other. These are available in different sizes, but I usually use the 3/8" body and it fits perfectly into a 3/8" R8 collet or Jacobs chuck and are short for small mills. They are used dynamically at a medium-high RPM (around 1000 is recommended). Simply adjust X and Y until the end just kicks out (0.2" end) or is at minimum if using the pointed end for a center punch. I think Mr. Pete has a video on how to make one, but Amazon has a Mitutoyo for around $20 as I write this. Since I have a DRO, I use the 1/2X (or 1/2Y) function for the 1st axis. I then set the X (or Y) axis to zero. I then do the same thing for the other axis. The problem with the normal edge finder is it can leave marks on the edge if it is soft material, such as aluminum. If that is important, I find the electronic edge finders useful if you are machining metal or other conductive material. These are used statically and cost a bit more. Amazon has a Fowler for about $50 as I write this. They usually have a 1/2" body and are not usually produced with a pointed tip. The DRO method can also be used, but creep up slowly so that the tool is not permanently bent (they can take a small amount of flex). Of course, for non-conductive soft plastics, use a thin sheet of paper between the dynamic edge finder and the work.
I'm not sure this is as much an issue with jobber-length drills, but I can tell you for sure that extra long drillbits untwist a little during use, expanding slightly, and that's part of why they drill oversize. I found this out drilling a deep hole with a jobber drill and then running an extra long in there and having it bind. (Hence the existence of aircraft extension drills, I guess.)
I bought an indicator from SHARS that has half of the dial shaded in yellow. This works great when using a mirror. The indicator is jeweled with a reasonable cost.
Well I hate to say it but I had to stop and think about " Oh Behave " then every time and yes there is a lot of them good one. Always good to watch your vids.
Ahhh the co-ax . . . bought mine some 25-30 years ago when there were few options/ manufacturers of said indicators. $ 329 is one reason to question my sanity. unlike many other professions, it'll cost ya . my "everyday" starrett top box holds the gold, the gerschner holds the jewels, including the co-ax. (and THAT'S why i don't loan out tools, TOM!!) Keep up the great service and continue to teach. you are the best source for knowledge outside of the handbook . . . i'm retired, and after 45 years, and i've seen the 180 of that
Tucker Southard: yeah wired that. But, with lathe based time travel. I no longer believe in coincidence. The truth will out when your sat in you ToT tea shirt sipping a cuppa from your blondihacks mug Whatching a Clickspring vid. Free will is not covered in the machinists handbook. (Metric fist shake)
The resolution of the coax indicator diminishes with longer probes. I put a 4 slot encoder disk and optical sensor on the coax indicator and triggered a strobe light with it. It visually separates the two axis' of error indication. it it good fun to try it. Use a two color LED and some better electronics for even more fun.
Awesome video - thank you (new to your channel - great work). I suspect another reason for the twist drill drilling slightly oversize is the torsional stress during operation tends to make the helical flutes unwind. This is probably less a factor than just being sharpened asymmetrically (or bent) as you said.
I'll tell you a little trick I've used in the shop for year for picking up existing holes when you only need to be within a thou or two. Use an edge finder. Drop down in the hole, eyeball it to center of the hole. In "X" axis move until the edge finder kicks, zero your DRO then move the the opposite wall and when the EF kicks, look at the dimension, divide it by two and move back to that dimension and zero. Repeat for the "Y" axis and you will be centered.
My preferred way to pick up a bore is to use a 3d indicator like a Haimer or Tschorn. Not a cheap option but they are also great for replacing edge finders.
Still taking digs at us woodworkers I see! : ) No mercy for us dual trade people. Might be good to mention backlash when using the indicators for those people that don't have a dro, just as a reminder. Thanks for mentioning the wiggler. Best method I have used for picking up scribed lines. Another great video! Thanks!
Love you skill videos, I am a press brake operator by trade, but my job has a nice bridgeport mill sitting in the corner of the shop, gathering cobwebs. Slowly but surely, I'm starting to use it. Thanks to you👍👍
One big one that you missed, that doesn't intuitively sound like it could work, but does, and is often overlooked, is the lowly edge finder. Although they are designed to work with only straight and square edges, they work just as well for rounded features, like holes, slots, and bosses (yes, outside, too!), and can approach the accuracy of the test or coax indicator. It's much quicker and much more versatile than many of the other solutions. I use it with the 1/2 feature on my DRO usually, and don't even need to compensate for the edge finder's diameter at all - any diameter in any feature that it fits into will work. One would think that if you're off-center in either axis to start, it can't find the opposing (rounded and/or straight) edges of the hole accurately, but it somehow does - every time! I usually set my zero center at each axis in turn and then double-check for zero to verify repeatability. Never had an error yet. Try it yourself if you find it hard to believe. Do the edge finder method first and then double-check with your other tool of choice without moving your position. You'll be pleasantly surprised, save tons of time, and maybe even drop those older traditional methods for good. The first time you precisely locate the middle of that elusive round-ended slot, or the axis of that stubborn dowel pin you can't remove from the blind hole, in under a minute, with one simple tool, I think you'll be hooked. Another bonus tip - There seems to be a misconception that an edge finder needs to run true to be accurate. Not so! This is the beauty and genius behind it! The edge finder will shift on axis of the quill at concentricity no matter where it's rotational axis is (within reason, of course), which is important to remember if you were thinking about using the cylindrical tool (drill, transfer punch, etc.) method to locate holes. Set your edge finder intentionally off center with a shim of paper or whatever and try it. It will still work just as well. I have used them with old worn-out drill chucks with no loss of accuracy. Edge finders are usually good to 0.0005" if in good shape and used carefully, and can be dependent on your ability to interpret the "shift point" closely. If you want more accuracy than that, I would use the edge finder to get close and then switch over to a test indicator for the last few tenths. Or, get one of those "chair" style edge finders if you want to be even closer. I have never used a coax indicator, but they seem more trouble than they're worth, with the clearance issues especially. I have a small mill without power knee and cranking it up and down to make space is tedious when I can simply insert a two inch tool into my spindle. I'm sure it's much the same problem with the Z-axis on the column. Keep up the good work and the insightful advice. BTW, these are trade secrets, so please don't tell anyone ;)
Quinn, Like your vids. You have a very pleasant voice for narration. Re adjusting the coaxial, if you hold the rocker against the body with your thumb, you can pivot the "rod" holder around the screw some what in the manner of a DTI.
Worth to point out that microns have a limited use in metric countries, outside few industries. In general mechanic and manufacturing we use millimiters with 2 decimal places.
Recently, I was doing an operation training on an ID grinding machine. We were using micron to 1 decimal! Most cases, on a CNC machine (lathes, mills), I use microns. For example, to set and caliber a measuring arm/head like Renishaw. Frankly, I don't think there's a limit to the decimals. Only machines have limitations due to manufacturing and price.
I have used a variation of the first method to center on a bullet mold in order to rework it. First you machine a cone . With that cone in the spindle , and the part in the vise, you come down until you are as close as possible , vertically and laterally. Then you loosen the vise , go further down until the vise doesn't wiggle any more , and tighten the bolts. ( the big disavantage is you will have to align the vise after you are done )
Great video! I just wanted to point out that the coaxial indicator can be adjusted on the shiny screw joint in between the leg fixture and the body tilt to fit a wider range of hole sizes. And also that the scale of the dial does vary with the lengths and angle of the leg pins (or whatever the shiny rods touching the part is called). This can easily be tested by putting a shim stock or something with a known dimension in between the part and the pin to see. Another useful way to find a hole is to use a live or dead center in the spindle. Keep up the great work!
I prefer using a dial indicator with a holder like an Indicol that allows you to face the dial up so you can see it while spinning. I've never used a coaxial indicator that I liked, they all felt cheaply made and imprecise. I think there is a reason the big names (Starrett, Mitutoyo, Brown & Sharpe) don't make them. To speed up centering, I usually start with a pin and eyeball it, then go in with the dial indicator. One thing that help with sweeping in a hole with a dial indicator is once you get one axis in, the zero reading will be the same (or very close) in the second axis, so you can just zero the dial, turn it 90º and then just move the second axis until the dial reads zero again. This should get you within a few thousandths, assuming your hole is within a few thou of round. One other way of locating on a center punch is using the pointed end of an edge finder using the same method you would for a hole.
Here’s a project to try for you. Couple of cents laser diode, add a coin battery and magnet/clip to the spindle. Persistence of vision gives you a circle and you adjust diameter by changing height. The eye seems to be decently accurate at judging equiv gaps ...
Hmmmmm, new to the channel but👍 What I usualy do is machine a cone of sutable size in the mini lathe then chuck it in the mini mill which has a built in z axis readout then manipulate the axis(es) to get maximum z value. That was good enough for me but I am a hobby machinest
Boy do I owe you. I own the "cadillac" option, and never entirely understand the fine details of it. You really filled in a few things I needed to know. AND, how you showed how to dial it in while running slowly and adjusting it with the axis's correctly. This settles it..... I have to STOP, marrying beautiful woman who are great cooks. I need to mary a beautiful woman, that is also a machinist, (better than me) and we can HIRE, a cook. I've been entirely doing this wrong. Actually, while I'm thinking about it, we should get married. LOL. Blessings, keep up the great videos.
I love your channel, and i admit I'm new to your channel and machining as well. I have a clausing 12 inch lathe 5900 series. You are an inspiration and I love how you come out at the end with great results on your projects. And i also love your humor, (because of this video Beavis and Butthead popped into my head lmao!) i love it! Keep up the amazing content and thank you for sharing your skills!
I had a Blake co-ax indicator and the leg moved where ever you wanted. But for me an even better option was a vertical dial test indicator. Unlike your horizontal indicator with mirrors, the dial sits straight up so you can easily read it as you rotate around the hole. I have even heard of shops that don't allow their employees to use co-axial indicators as they can introduce too many errors.
I want to align on a punch mark but my question is how do I get my brother to hold still so I can find the center of the mark I made where I punched him
@@somebodyelse6673 -I had already punched him ,I was just trying to find the center ,anyway I think I`ll try the super glue method or maybe loctite 601
I never miss any of your videos - they’re explained so thoroughly and at a level that suits me. I’ve learnt loads! I wondered whether you are planning a video on milling slots - I’m having trouble! Mike (Lincoln, UK)
Loctite turns from a chemical holding method to a lubricant to aiding removal under heating, Loctite turns liquid under heat and the basic differences between the different grades of Loctite are the heat rating of the Loctite basically the stronger Loctite's are higher heat rated, So Heat to loosen does work
Still a big fan of my optical centre and edge finder,just line up the graticules and off you go. Very quick,easy and accurate. There is the Haimer and the Renishaw probe on the Haas but the optical still a favourite.
Another way is to use the pointed end of an edge finder and a 1/2" precision bushing that is just able to slide over the edge finder body with no slop. Load the edge finder in the chuck point end down with the bushing in the middle. Stick the point in the punch mark, and move your x and y axis till you can slide the bushing down to meet the part surface. If it won't go all the way down, it's not lined up yet.
What I do to find a center of a hole, if it is large enough to accept an LED-lit edge finder, is to find the first x edge of the hole (it doesn't matter where the y-axis is as long as it's in the hole and you don't move it) and zero out the x-axis dial and then find the opposite x edge and divide the resulting movement by 2 and then move the table to that. Now you have found the x-axis center. Do the same with the y-axis. You now have the center of the hole. You can do this with a non-electronic edge finder as well but you need to have the spindle rotating whereas an accurate electronic one you really don't.
Hey Blondihacks how's your day going? My dad and I just got back from doing two days on the Appalachian Trail. It's nice to be back in my home state of Ohio however.
You can also use the pointed end of a starrett edge finder for a punch mark lower into the hole then lock the quill be careful not to lock with to much downward pressure like bottom out then raise like a thou then you simply move your dials back and forth until the cylinder is centered unlock the quill relower to press into the hole botom as long as it stays centered you're good to go
It is critical with the co-axial indicator that the body of the indicator does not wobble as the mill spindle rotates, since this wobble shows up as needle movement on the dial. I noticed that yours was wobbling slightly. So it would be interesting to check the centring accuracy of the coaxial indicator with a dial indicator.
To read a dial that is facing away from you, mount two mirrors 90 degrees to each other. Hold one centered behind the dial and look in the other. Not only will you see the dial the right way around, but you will also not have the dial in the way of seeing the dial.
I don't know how kosher this is, but the little acorn nut just below the body of the coax indicator can be used to adjust the swing of the probe. I'm sure this has horrible effects w/r/t cosine error, but in my limited experience it doesn't seem to be an issue. BTW, the coax indicator was one of the best machining purchases I ever made (though, admittedly, that ain't saying much).
Would like to add that I don't consider drill chucks to be precision tools.... Funny and informative vid!... And yes I cackled like a misbehavior. It's fun!
Hi folks. I have the same co-ax indicator. It is well worth the money. Easy to get with half a thou very quickly. One tip, don’t over tighten the probe clamp screw, they are rather delicate. Ask me how I know! Stay safe. BobUK
What about the conical side of the edgefinder? It can be used to find both a hole and a punch mark, place it in the punch mark or hole and adjust x and y until you can't feel the edge between the shank and the cone with your finger or fingernail.
Another clever method to get in line with a bore (if it's not too big) or a punch mark is to put a center il a Jacob's chuck and get it close, then u can always use your coaxial indicator which I think is best for very precise alignment (shout out to abom79)
Question, I can understand why you would want to find dead center of punch mark, @28:13 when your finding the center of the already machined hole, why would you want to unless you was going to enlarge it or cut a thread but wouldn't you have done that already while it was attached in its correct position ?
How about just using a haimer prope to find X- and X+ and split the difference using the DRO? Or simply a wiggler edge finder to find the edges and split the difference with the DRO. I do not know how precise this is, but it is fast. Only works on larger holes of course. Smaller holes can be done with a dowel pin and edge finding on the outside of the pin.
Very informative, thank you. I saw a video some time ago where a laser pointer was used to align the quill to the hole. I don't know if it was a commercially available tool or a homemade device. It got me to thinking why there aren't more machining measuring tools that use laser technology. DRO,s for instance.
Hi folks. The really old school method was the ‘sticky pin’ technique. Chewing gum and yes, a sharp pin or needle. After stabbing oneself once the pro’s learnt to use a ruler to align the pin just by running the spindle at low speed. Stay safe. BobUK.
Wouldnt it be possible to machine a plug gauge on your lathe, with the shank sized for a relevant collet and the "plug end" machined to a transition fit for the hole your trying to align 🤔?
Has your apron got as many pockets as Adams new one? Glad you got the wiggler out at the end! I would get out more, but I'm obeying lockdown and watching the tube instead.
Hi Blondi. I can't afford an expensive toy like that one you have but found it very interesting to see how it works. Got to thinking about the problem you have been having with the "wiggler" style attachment you have for it. Can you turn the wiggler arm so that its articulated joint is at right angles to the normal movement of the device? Then, when you have the wiggler point in a hole, it will take up the variance in the opposite plane to that which is being measured at any point of rotation - so that the "anvil" does not rock from side to side. That's how it looks like it is supposed to work to me anyway. Try it out and let us know. Thanks
I thought the pointy end of an edge finder was for centering on holes. I haven't actually ever tried this, even though I have an edge finder with a pointy end. Does that trick not actually work, or am I mistaken about what the pointy end is for?
How about using some cone in spindle and not locked part on the table, and after centering - lock the part to the table. (This is not precise. I know.)
