Fixing Hit Points 

The link for esoteric enterprises in print doesn’t seem to work.

I love how you (both in comments and in your channel) bring a very OSR optic to work into 5e without completely abandoning it. Kudos Monsieur Bob Builder? If I ever have to play 5e again I think I will use that approach. Thx.

OSE D&D solves this problem. It reduces hitpoints and makes characters think twice before running into combat.

That is an interesting idea. In the video he mentions that things like poison cause you to lose HP which doesn't line up with the whole HP = grit idea. What if poison caused you to make a death saving throw even though you aren't at 0HP and you could hypothetically die without ever losing HP?

@@Chilrona that is a good point. Maybe poisons should be a saving throw only. Failure = death. Success = ill and at minuses to all rolls for a random period of time, say 3d6 hours, whatever, depending on the poison.

@@Chilrona That's how it works in Moldvay Basic D&D at least (I don't know other editions of D&D well enough to say off the top of my head how they handle poison). You get poisoned, you save or die.

If you didn't know already, there are optional rules like the one you stated in the 5e DMG.

@@GreenThingonTV Yes, I saw that before as part of their Gritty Realism rules.

Yes, a month sounds better to me. Even the 5e gritty rules are overpowered. I got rid of hp altogether and just use CON (or ST in my last homebrew) as "Flesh" and healing is difficult and slow.

yeah this, 5e was designed as an epic fantasy adventure at higher levels your characters are supposed to be living mythical heroes capable of battling and defeating demigods when a level 20 barbarian gets hit straight in the face by a dragons breath dont have any fear to describe how that fucker just takes the full blunt of the attack with a smile on his face and after that just cracks his neck, grabs his axe and jumps for the neck of the lizards, getting into the mindset that "they are supposed to be powerful" is the best way to tackle this "issue" you want a more "gritty and realistic experience" then either play at low levels, or try any of the many other RPGs that are designed from the ground up to support such gameplay, there is aparently a game of thrones rpg where you can die in a single hit no matter at what level your character is

I was thinking the same thing.

Yup, it can get pretty ridiculous though with characters having a hell of a lot of SDC.

@@maxducoudray OG Palladium fantasy characters had only HP. Armor and items had SDC. The first game I remember having SDC was Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Regardless, SDC spread to the rest of the Palladium Megaverse, including later editions of Palladium fantasy. The real debacle was SDC vs MDC. Which really got out of hand in Rifts and Manhunter.

I’m always amazed how simple, old ideas can be repackaged and some people will call them “groundbreaking”. Hit points have always been a broken concept and even with the various borrowed fixes they are still broken - you’re just changing one set of paradoxical, nonsensical incongruity for another.

definitely read that as "Stress & Ham" from Blades in the Dark

Logan's post came out years before Blades in the Dark... I wouldn't be surprised if the Blades rule was descended from Logan's.

I still use "bloodied" in 5e as do many other people. But what's funny is that it has no mechanical effect. The thing with it is though is that (barring peculiar circumstances such as illusions) when anybody is bloodied it has to be announced. And let me tell you that can change the stakes, flow and tension of a combat real quick. Because if you think it's bad hearing that your cleric went bloody just imagine the implications that all the enemies are aware of this fact as well.

@@4saken404 When we played 4E, we refrained from meta-discussing how damaged our PCs were -- healers would usually just wait until someone was bloodied before rendering aid.

Was about to comment this.

Coming to say this too. I liked that critical hits went straight to wounds, but wasn't doubled.

@@spaceranger7683 I mean, not so much - vitality is a measure of physical and mental effort. Soldiers are spending it to avoid taking a serious hit, while force users are spending it on other things in addition to that. You technically could spend into Wounds, as I recall, but that's a last desperate effort kinda thing. For example, with the Battlemind force skill, you might spend 5 vitality receiving a +3 to hit, or 3 vitality to get a +6 to your strength or dexterity score. In addition, force users get access to the Heal Self force skill which, on a 15 (a reasonable result to assume for taking 10 even at low level) restores 1d6+2 vitality. You can do this once per hour, so if you use this power, rest for an hour (during which time you also receive your level in vitality back naturally), you're getting a significant chunk of vitality back. Finally, a level 1 force user is not a fully trained force user. To use the clone wars series as an example, Ahsoka Tano would start that series at level 1, Anakin at level 7 (having just passed his trials), and Obi-Wan at level 10 (almost but not quite experienced enough to qualify as a master).

@@Parker8752 Sorry, but the early age of padawans building their own lightsabers in 3.5 along with the Darkhorse comics and the Clone War cartoons is around age 12 or 13 years old. And to have the Force feats needed will put the PC as a 4th-level Jedi. Ahsoka Tano at the start of the series was about 14 or 15 years old and would have been 4th or 5th level Jedi Guardian class PC, due to her acrobatics. After three years of fighting in the war and her own side missions she would have become a 7th-level Jedi guardian earning the title " knight," and a bonus class feat. Then you can start playing around with the XP charts and multi-classing from the core book and the other source books. Cause the Xp to bring a single class 4th-level Jedi up to 7th level is just enough to raise a 7th-level Jedi to level 9th. From the source books the average age to be knighted/ passing one's tests was 26 years old. Due to Kennobi defeating Maul at the age of 24yo, he was knighted earlier than most in the order. Starting play, 7th-level Jedi age 26 is pair up with a padawan age 13 as a 4th-level Jedi. EL: average party level is 6th on XP/ CR of game encounter play. Then over the course of 13 years the padawan is raised/ trained to become a knight. So the average age of a " master " who has just raised a padawan was 39 or 40yo. This is during times of .. " peace " .. 2.) Eras of play and XP charts, D&D3.5e/ Star Wars WotC. has different rules for multi-classing than D&D4e/ Star Wars Sage edition. Luke Skywalker starts the game as a 2nd-level Fringer and gains 7 levels as Jedi " Jedi Guardian " over the course of four years in the Rebellion civil war. Which end in him becoming a 9th-level character. So as XP goes, once he fully trains another Jedi within the next four to five years he would be a 9th-level Jedi & a 11th-level Character, and a 27yo man. 3.) As for Anakin Skywalker, other than effecting his over all BAB " base attack bonus," due to multi-classing, and from the novels of " Young Jedi " series, Anakin by the age of 12 to 15 years old was running off to every street race he could find. So he would have pick up a few levels of Scoundrel Class to boost his acrobatic skill and pilot ranking which would have made him able to pick up the Prestige Class: Jedi Ace Pilot which stacks with stander Jedi core class to gain Jedi Knight ranking. For a more .. power gamer .. approach give Anakin a few levels of Force Adept to boost a few of his force skills to higher levers. 4.) To nit'pick the early Clone War cartoons/ the non Disney ones, for Obi Wan to function in clone armor with out penalty he would have to have two levels in the Soldier class or he would have lost his Dex/ Reflex ability to Deflect Blasters. 5.) D&D3e DMG had a chapter on Optional rules for learning skills & feats training time, compare that to character creation of the starting level of a 1st-level Soldier class in SW, then compare that to real world military training. On average it could be argue that a RPG N/PC could earn/ gain study/ train for two to three class levels per year. And Luke Skywalker gain 7 Jedi levels in four years of military conflict. Other than the " Jedi " aspect of a class character, his other team mates in Rogue Squadron would have still end up as 7th or 8th single class PC. But SW3e was set up as a multi-classing style of power gaming. And the source book " Starships of the Galaxy," had a bunch of Prestige Class multi-classing character built options for campaign game play. Example, .. Princesses Leia from the Classic Marvel comics of the 1980's and the early novels that came out after RotJ, had Leia spend so much time in one of the Falcon's quad blaster torrents " Chew's chair," she would have the requirements for the Prestige class " Master Gunner " by the time ESB came out. My pass game shops spent weeks trying to figure out how to .. power game .. SW PC into multi-class them pass 20th-level characters. Just a bunch of word math problems to solve.

WEG Star Wars is a better system in my opinion.

Same answer as me.

Totally agree. My players are level 6 / 7 and they already have huge hit point totals. Which means battles are troublesome, esp. when the paladin can heal himself for 30 at a time. Scale those numbers right back to add more danger to the game. Right now it's just a battle of attrition with really no excitement in combat.

@@stubie so sorry. My party split over that. I have now a different party and we are loving some homebrew OSR. Fight on!

If you don't like characters advancing to the degree they become resilient to lava... Don't run games at that level? That's the entire point of levels (although 3rd edition displays it more effectively than 5th imo,) the characters becoming intrinsically more powerful. Run the levels you want to run

there is stuff such as "level of play" level 1 to 5 characters are pretty much still very squishy and can die and be instantly killed by mostly everything, if you play my milestones instead of HP you can have your players at lowers levels for even the entire duration of the campaign level 20 characters are supposed to be absurdly powerful near mythical heroes, they arent normal people, they arent realistic, wizards can make reality their bitch at level 20

I ran HERO for years and I really liked the way the damage system worked, especially how it was possible to be stunned or KO'd without being killed or even while you're health was relatively high.

I have been using Hero System since 1999

Your in-universe explanation hits the mark, I prefer to view D&D characters as ascendant heroes akin to mythological heroes like Heracles or Perseus.

If no magic is involved, then no, a 20 level barbarian cannot take a powerful blow of a sharp longsword into naked chest and laugh it off. Human flesh is not able to resist such force, no matter the non-magical training involved. In a D&D world the only explanation would be that -6HP longsword blow wasn't taken straight into naked chest, but rather was absorbed by the barbarian's grit, stamin, toughness or whatever you want to call it. The same applies to a human hit by a trunk of a tree (or a huge limb) swung by a giant monster. When you calculate the forces involved in such an impact, even a peak level strongman clad in full plate armor would be easily shattered by such a crazy powerful blow. The only way to fight such a monster is to dodge like a ninja and never get hit full on. When I watched The Hobbit I marveled at the sight of Smaug the dragon. Huge monster that was crazy powerful by its sheer weight but it was also very nimble, intelligent, perceptive, clad in an almost impenetrable armor and had a deadly fire breath weapon to top it all. For a non-magical warrior it would be basically impossible to defeat such an adversary head on. The dragon could simply twist and turn and roll around and the warrior would be simply crushed or maimed first and then crushed. One powerful swing of its tail would be like falling 50 meters on your back and would break the spine of any man. The only way to fight and survive the crazy odds that fantasy worlds throw at PCs is by magic. Magical artifacts or personal magic. For a warrior without 'real' magic a kind of qigong magic could be imagined. Great level of control over their energy channels and centers that could give them superhuman strength, stamina and durability. But no, normal non-magical human body can't withstand a blow of a sharp sword without deadly consequences. D&D is a game that evolved from a relatively normal low-power fantasy into superhero fantasy. I wonder how many people's games reflect that reality - that they are basically playing superheroes. For example in the world of Tolkien there were quite a few superhero-level characters. In D&D the worlds seem to be littered with superheroes disguised as bards, druids, thieves etc. I mean imagine a city where there were 20 Batmans and 20 Banes. It would take only a few years to turn the city into ash. But anyway, I went on a tangent here :-D

​@@PeterKoperdan ​ Tangentiality is the mother of invention! In the context of a fictional universe, over whose metaphysics we as DM's have unmitigated authority, I do not agree that "If no magic is involved, then no, a 20 level barbarian cannot take a powerful blow of a sharp longsword into naked chest and laugh it off." This can be a true statement in your D&D world, but not in all D&D worlds. In a fictional universe of my devising and my possession, human flesh is actually able to resist such a force, when I want it to, if I want it to. I can just decide that. To be clear, this isn't the thematic assumption of system itself, this is explicitly my rationalisation of the system's metaphysical peculiarities. Like I said, this does not reflect Old School sensibilities at all. But classic D&D endorses dragons as big as jetliners, who can fly in an antimagic field notwithstanding their physics-defying immensity; and it endorses the massless regenerative powers of trolls and hydras; and it endorses actual physical combat with the material embodiments of metaphysical concepts. So _when I DM D&D and it’s derivatives,_ preternaturally resilient human tissue doesn't bother me any more than any of those things. If it bothers other DMs, that's cool. Perhaps the only way to survive the crazy odds that fantasy worlds throw at your PCs is by magic. Nothing wrong with that. It cleaves more closely to the game's genre inspirations, and also, I believe, makes greater intuitive sense than my interpretation of the d20 system. But I don't play D&D that way. I decide by pure executive fiat that heroic will toughens flesh, bone and sinew without aid of the arcane. Because I am the actual literal boss of that universe. As you say: the game has evolved from a relatively normal low-power fantasy into superhero fantasy. I'm one of those people whose games actually reflects that reality. A 20th level Barbarian is more like the Immortal Hulk than like Conan the Cimmerian. Except when I don't want to play that way. Then I run something else like Maze Rats, or Burning Wheel, or Riddle of Steel, or Adventure Fantasy Game, or GURPS, or FATE, or... 😋

@@jeremytitus9519 Fair enough ;-)

This has to be the most metal HP commentary ever made. It reminded me of this passage in Kill Six Billion Demons: "A brain is useful only up until the point when you are faced with your enemy. Then it is useless. The only truly useful thing in this cursed world is will. You must suffuse your worthless body with its terrible heat. You must be so hot that even if your enemy should strike your head off, you shall continue to decapitate ten more men. Your boiling blood must spring forth from your neck and mutilate the survivors!"

Ooh, where is the source? I would like to track that down. :-)

@@TheEctomanceroh man there's a lot but I can remember the major titles off the top of my head. D&D 3e Unearthed Arcana by WotC, PF1e Ultimate Combat by Paizo, D20 Star Wars RPG by WotC... During the D20 craze many 3rd party publishers expanded on it, but it maybe older than 3e. I'll give ya more when I get home.

Same, I use a tweaked version of the Vitality/Wound Points system. I let Critical Hits bypass Vitality to hit Wound Points directly, but still do their multiplied damage. Very lethal.

@@TheEctomancer I think it first appeared in the d20 Star Wars rpg.

@@twi3031 Adamatine Armor gonna be sought after like the holy grail and Champions going to get more use

To me, a hit with hit points remaining is more of a glancing blow. This level of abstraction works fine in most situations, outside of the "swimming in lava" situation listed above. One other point where it doesn't work is for someone who is incapacitated. Honestly this should do far more damage or practically bypass hit points. There's no way hitting someone with a Warhammer while they're sleeping could be a glancing blow.

@@godminnette2 Well hitpoints are meant for combat and situations where a character can activly avoid harm. When somebody is incapacitated/sleeping etc. the thing you want to do just happens. Slitting the throat of a sleeping bandit requires no rolls, execpt maybe some sort of roll to not alert his buddies.

Great ideas… however I feel like when we overthink it we may bog down a game with additional mechanics that make perfect sense but turns seconds into minutes of MATH! Ive begun simply describing the “first half” of damage taken and received as mostly getting your “grit” thrown around. A successful attack with a weapon doesn’t always have to mean blood is drawn. I believe a long sword can sometimes be used to pull people close to knock someone’s teeth out with their elbow if the timing and position suited them. If it was me I would’ve given you the satisfaction of smacking that halfling across the room and cracking a couple ribs (at 10 HP you’ve just about run out of body parts to smash) 🤣 That sounds like early HP damage to me! Once my PCs start taking damage that is less than half their maximum HP, I start drawing blood and twisting body parts. I applaud the continued discussion and question that has plagued many an RPG though… 🤙🏻

If the hammer was the size of a child, that halfling's probably going to be okay, since it spread the force out so much.

This is why I ended up opting for a "Damage Only" mechanic when designing a combat system. It also just generally fits with the idea that damage can be a whittling down of one's stamina, makes it easier to justify the idea of glancing blows, and you always have some amount of forward momentum no matter the result (1 damage will always feel better than missing an attack entirely).

AD&D lava rules: if you walk into a room filled with lava, you die (no save.)

Roll Perception to see the lava

@@lucasbarcellos3319 Perception is for (slang word for cats).

I've often thought of things in a similar way, and thinking about it again now I had the idea to make this even more explicit in my games, i.e. I might actually have each PC have like a gem embedded in their body, or a tattoo, given by a patron, that gains power with each level. Damage reduces the store of power in the gem, healing spells or rest recharges it. When they take damage the gem/whatever can flare with light or something, rather than the PC spurting blood....(so as the DM I have something to describe)...until the gem is depleted (when they hit their level 1 HP#). This can work along with magic items and spells that give temp HP quite smoothly. The gem can even protect when the PC is unconscious, so you can ignore the ugly abstractions HP requires for that. AC still makes sense, monsters with high HP are just really tough. NPCs maybe have similar gems or alternate "protective energy" sources.

Try Cyberpunk 2020, or Traveller, (Mongoose 2nd edition)

Another very weird idea I had is to scrap HP altogether. If you get hit, you roll a hit-location. If it's somewhere lethal, you get a lethal wound. Otherwise, you get penalties based on what was hit (movement if the leg, to hit and skills if an arm, etc.). If you're wearing armor, you have a good chance of only being knocked out. If you're knocked out, anyone can kill you, as long as they have time to find the openings in your armor. Apparently, in real Medieval battles, knights rarely died. The custom was to take them captive and ransom them back to the enemy, not kill them. That shows you just how well armor like chain mail worked (which is what most knights actually wore back then, typically).

Yeah, I'm seriously considering a body/stamina type split for the HP pool in my game (probably with body based on CON plus level) but also want to use 5e exhaustion levels in there more somehow. Like hitting 0 HP gives you a point of exhaustion even if your HP are magically healed. You also need to recover from the exhaustion somehow.

I played 1st edition in the eighties and the first ten letters of our names are the same! Funny.

Imo you're better off taking away the constitution modifier. Otherwise you're just taking away one of the few advantages martial classes have, at the levels where casters are already making them feel weak. Everybody tries to get a good constitution if they can. Barring a Roll In Order system everyone is going to be getting similar HP per level from Con

HP = " Dexterity stamina " in keeping your guard up and avoiding being hit, along with rolling with a hit turning it into a glancing blow instead of a lethal hit. Side stepping gun fire. Star Wars RPG has some fun ways of explaining combat to look like the movies.

Sounds similar to the Cypher System rules. In that system you have 3 ability pools; Might, Speed, and Intellect; you spend points from these pools to take certain actions; improve your chances of success on ability checks; attack rolls, and defence rolls; and increase the damage you deal. These pools are also your hit points and are depleted when you take damage. If one pool hits zero you start taking penalties; if two do they get more severe; if all three of your pools are at zero you die

I 100% agree with this, i think bitd's stress and harm system is really good replacement for hit points. Especially with how physical harm isnt represented by just a number but by actual injuries that add to the game. Like if you have a broken foot that changes what your character can do in the fiction but if you just took 10 points of damage who knows what that means - its subjective.