Dany thinks so much of conquering, never of the after. She doesnt know how to rule and it becomes so clear in Mereen. Besides normal army food needs, she's bringing *Dothraki* to Westeros for the first time. Looking at how devastating the Dothraki are to the people in Essos, it will be a catastrophe. They will wreak complete heavoc and anarchy and Dany will not be able to stop them, even if she tries. Tho she has tolerated their pillaging ways until now, cuz overall she benefits from them. You think the mountain doing all kinds of fuckery in the Riverlands is bad? This will be a hundred thousand mountains swarming over westeros
Yes exactly. LOL it's been so long since I wrote this video so I can't recall, but the Ironborn are a perfect example of why Dany will demolish the country if she comes with the Dothraki. The Ironborn similarly rely on pillaging and reaving, although they're actually even less dependent on it than the Dothraki are, and that dependence has largely stopped their population and culture from growing and evolving because the people that they're taking from simply don't have enough to take. Suddenly having a population of a small city of people whose sole means of survival has been taking from others as "gifts" or by violent force is going to be beyond disastrous for Westeros.
@@janellejulianajoy Well the Mongols settled down and adopted the City culture of those they conquered. Dothraki are clearly based off the Mongols so it's a reasonable assumption.
And she isn't even that good at conquering, at least not in Westeros (and at least not in the show). When they have a war council in Winterfell after the long night and Dany says that Cersei is getting stronger the longer they wait I roll my eyes all the way back into my head every time. Cersei is so much on her last leg she had to buy soldiers. She can't keep up with paying them for an infinite time, she can't feed them for an infinite time. And there you have it with the food again, because Cersei is just as bad as Dany in regards to that. She just simply doesn't care if the people have enough food to eat during the winter. If they had just gone with Jon's idea of a blockade they would have starved Cersei out. Waiting a little longer so the soldiers can recuperate like Sansa suggested wouldn't have lost Dany the throne at all and for once it would have shown that Dany actually cares about the people she wants to rule. It would have also given her time to figure out her own food situation.
@Aleyna If you look to our own real history, the short comings become more glaring. Because we've fought entire WARS about resources like food, especially in medieval periods. But one of the most horrific wars in history, was also sparked by resources. World war 2, germany and Japan's motives at first are simple and obvious bad guy doing bad things. But the more you look into it, you realize that Germany HAD to go to war, because of oil. Due to the policies of Hitler, they stopped trading with a lot of the world. Which is a problem, because they relied on imports, but the most concerning one was oil. Since germany's army would need that oil for any chance of a war. So it created a situation where to go to war they needed resources, to get resources they needed to go to war. It also is even more dire because food became an increasing problem for germany. By 1941's end they've taken millions of prisoners in the east and have no way to actually feed them, even if they were inclined to. Japan also suffered resource crisis and their answer was the invasion of China, and later the war against the allies. And they were just as brutal and evil as Germany if not actually worse in their own policies in China especially. So world war 2 had a massive underpining of resource shortages which would further fuel the destructive nature of places like Germany and Japan in this period. And it made war unavoidable. Hitler's disicion to attack Russia was both a practical one, and also an ideological one. Creating a perfect storm of hatred, desperation, and self-justification. And the soviet union did itself no favors with its war with finland showing to germany a welcome mat basically saying 'free food and oil, come and take it bro'. Which Germany needed. Note, I am not saying Germany or Japan were morally right. I am saying that even in the modern era, resources played a major part in some of the most destructive wars in human history. And saw the fall of countries. And Europe post-world war 2 was in ruins, and the result of which can still be felt 100 years out. So introduction a MASSIVE amount of strain on a system already strained, is a recipe for complete carnage. ASOIAF seems to bring a lot of very deep understanding of the world and war. And the farther back you go, the more mess you see. We're living in the best times by far, but even now we still have food crisis and starvation across the world. People starve to death even in the west, but especially in places like China. And thats with our ability to vastly augment food production through technology. Back in medieval time even a year disruption would cause world wide issues, wars, devastation.
LOL yeah, I know people have short memories but I was more than a little thrown off when the overall reaction to Sansa's question was "why is she being so rude to Dany" when she was nearly gang-raped in a food riot where the High Septon was LITERALLY ripped limb from limb.
@@ruddyman4928 Speaking of Shae, I love how Ed Sheeran character in the book was murdered and cooked in a stew by the order of Tyrion. But I know they can’t show that in the show because they don’t want Tyrion to be evil like the other Lannisters.
I always thought the food crisis was going to lead into a huge conflict between Dany’s army and North. Danny burnt all the food in the Reach…the food that was supposed to feed everybody during the long winter, and the north does not have the resources to sustain Dany’s army, her dragons, and Northerners themselves for long. A legitimate logistical concern gets solved with the Others coming literally days after Dany arrives…problem solved WTF?
That has a simple solution! just eat the Others! But seriously, a more chilling possibility is that the desolation from the Long Night is so terrible that the survivors actually can get by with the few resources.
@@catvicddlm1884 There's a historical precedent for that- sad as it is; in the aftermath of the Black Death, the population was decimated- so not only were there fewer people competing for resources, but also, because the free peasant population was lower- they could negotiate for better conditions in return for their labour
Dany's fatal mistake was dealing with The North. She should've stayed her course, conquered King's Landing and taken the Iron Throne the moment she landed in Westoros. Then she could've gone North with the might of the entire united Realm (supplies in hand....) and dealth with the Night King and White Walkers. Sansa asking questions about feeding people (and then never bothers to bring it up again....), was pointless when they were all facing certain death.
Yeah, their stupid "subverting expectations" bullcrap is mostly to blame for their avoidance of any sensible writing imo too. Personally I _much_ prefer a logical and natural descent / progression of a character than a terrible twist villain. Ok so I can see it from a mile away, that's fine. As a replacement for the twist shock you just have to make the descent more painful and interesting, and use it as a vehicle for sub-drama. Plot twists can be fine, but screenwriters overly rely on them because they think it's where the bucks are. Ugh.
Yes completely agreed, one of their major mistakes was trying to make Dany's villainy a twist instead of a storyline. I know that by the end of GoT I was almost completely convinced of the theory that Dany was a hidden villain, and after the Battle of Winterfell I distinctly remember thinking holy shit, guess I totally read that one wrong. It's one thing to conceal a twist, but when you write something so bizarrely that even someone who already believes that this twist is going to happen is then convinced that it's not because it literally cannot happen in the time remaining and make sense, you fucked up.
@@HillsAliveYT Yeah, that's about what happened to me too. To be honest, I thought Dany was going to possibly become the "bad guy" for a few years. It was just a feeling, and when I looked into it I felt like internet theorizers confirmed my ideas. I guess it was mostly the fact that she was heralded like a war hero that made her sus to me early on. Whatever. When season 8 started they actively tried to make us think she was just misunderstood and good all along until "The Last of the Starks" where it was suddenly turning around. And everyone could tell from then on "oh, ok she's gonna turn evil next episode, yay I sure can't wait oh boy", so it wasn't even a surprise anymore when it happened. It was just a rugpull, with gaslighting two episodes earlier lol.
Yeah I similarly was on the Dany is a villain boat earlier on than some. I read the books after watching the seasons of the show and that was what made me start getting incredibly suss about who Dany was, I actually very distinctly remember the moment where I was like "whoa WTF, is this character completely different from who I think she is?" Because Dany killing Kraznys and freeing the Unsullied was one of my favorite scenes in the show at that point and I was 1000% on the "Dany is the flawless hero come to save the world" train, but in the books when she essentially told the Unsullied to kill all of the teenagers I was like... come again? The very fact that the show chose to omit that very obvious horrific choice immediately raised my suspicions, and then once I started thinking about her other actions in the books and even in the show as well as diving into the part of the fandom who were arguing for Dany as a hidden villain it all made way more sense to me. Honestly, looking at the books completely independently, I'm baffled that so many people are still convinced she'll be the hero of the novels, because Daenerys as the ultimate liberator and freedom fighter is almost entirely an invention of the show. To me, the vast majority of her actions and thoughts in the books seem to be essentially using Slaver's Bay as practice for the Iron Throne, and she very clearly has zero investment in slavers vs. slaves, she will literally forgive anyone who will follow her and advance her goals and is willing to kill anyone who doesn't regardless of their class or status. I'm not quite as critical of the show as some, but they did an absolutely piss poor job of conveying how few of her actions are genuinely benevolent and aren't driven purely by a desire for power. I understand they thought that this should be the big twist, but good god did they miss out on some fantastic political commentary and character development in service of making Dany burning King's Landing a shock rather than the obvious outcome of her story.
I've been wondering aout food ever since Dany arrived at Dragonstone. It's a small, rocky, volcanic island. Where is there room for 100,000 Dothraki and their horses? And if they find room, where do they find food? Maybe Davos can bring them some onions.
I had always assumed if they didn’t tell us she actually only brought 10,000 Dothraki with a bunch of Mereen food supplies. And in the battle of goldroad I can’t count more than a few thousand Dothraki (as she doesn’t need any more cause of the dragons). Then she brought more (up to 50,000) in the North and the rest arrived for the battle of Kings Landing
@@jimhart4488 she had a Targheryen fleet from dragons bay. We assume the ironornborn destroyed the tyrell, Greyjoy, and martell fleets but not all of the dragons bay crown fleet
Petyr OVERstocks food, he also is gathering lords in debt. He plans to put Robin on the throne with the Vale, Riverlands, Left over Stannis (Robin is Robert’s bastard) army, and Northerns that hate Cercei.
@@lola-gs8cd he was conceived at Kingslanding during Robert’s reign. The first time we hear about Robin (named for Robert) is from Robert in the crypt talking (in code to the reader) about Jon’s parentage. In that conversation he says that “son is not the father” about Robin (hinting that Robin is not similar to his father aka Petyr is the dad). That same phrase is used by Tywin (who has a collection of parentaly mislabeled kids) about another Robert (Rob Stark) to emphasize the hint, maybe saying Rob Stark is Robert’s as well. Lysa straight out says Petyr didn’t have a son with her. Lysa says the phrase “the seed is strong” about Robin. That phrase was used about Baratheon (really house Strong, but regardless). Petyr is pushing Baratheon loyalty to the Royce; and no not to put Robert’s eldest, the Vale is too sexist and has been using her as a servant.
Yes, he is one of a few people who is very intentionally manipulating the food supply (or at least he's planning to) for his own gain, but I suspect that this is actually going to backfire on him as well at some point.
@@HillsAliveYT He’ll die before food becomes important, since he tossed the only witness to back up his story out the moon door to protect his probable daughter Sansa.
Another thoughtful analysis. Yes to all of this. How do you not have a million followers? Side note: This point about the real obvious consequences of Dany being unfit to rule makes Jon bending the knee for any other reason than to save his people from being burned alive into submission ridiculous. The food situation you described so well here will manifest immediately when she lands because every army marches on its stomach.
Thanks! And completely agreed, the fact that Jon Snow, who asked Stannis to GTFO because he was using Night's Watch resources, didn't even mention or consider the absolute ridiculousness of Dany's MASSIVE army coming North is bizarre. And although it's relatively small in the grand scheme of things, I still think it's hilarious that Dany is enraged because Cersei has taken all of the food from the Reach (which I'm sorry WHAT, that's like saying she took all the firewood from the North in like three days, it's literally impossible) and she can't feed her army without it, then she goes to the Reach and sets all of the food she sees on fire, and then Dany and her starving army apparently ceases to be an issue because this problem isn't mentioned again despite not being resolved whatsoever. I sometimes wonder if they made massive edits to the episodes to the point where it became incomprehensible, because I can't fathom how someone would write these things out in a script and not notice the gaping plot holes.
After the show people told me that book Dany would never do such terrible things and that she's much less delucional. I read the first book and was like.... You all sure about that.
Yeah I actually had a similar experience. I read the corresponding books after each season of GoT, and I was honestly astounded about how non-heroic she was in comparison to the TV series. I think a certain subsection of her fans will just do anything to avoid believing that she's possibly not the chosen savior of the world, but the idea that her book version is better or less dark is bizarre to me because her cruelty and lack of ideals are so much more blatant in her actions and thoughts in the books. I'm honestly surprised that the dark!Daenerys theory wasn't more popular prior to the end of GoT either, because it seems like GRRM really went out of his way to establish that Dany was an exceptionally brutal leader who is more concerned about her power than anything. I definitely don't think ASOIAF is as simple as heroes vs. villains, but a very easy litmus test that makes Dany's villainy obvious is simply looking at all of her major political decisions and asking "is this something Ned Stark would do or that Tywin Lannister would do?" Because ultimately, even if Dany thinks she's the conquering hero, nearly everything that she does is something that would be abhorrent and unthinkable to the "good guys" of the story and would only be excusable or acceptable in the eyes of the most violent and notoriously cruel characters. But, because Dany herself thinks that all of her actions are justifiable because the Iron Throne is rightfully hers, a lot of people who are stuck on her character seem to hand-wave actions that are so absurdly, over-the-top evil that it's sometimes hard not to wonder if they actually understand what they're defending.
@@HillsAliveYT Let me know if I’m being too much; but I think it’s worth noting. The characters are really greyer and ethically muddled as part of the themes. It’s understandable that people forgive Daenerys obvious transgressions, for her heroism. One has to extrapolate the hidden bad of Daenerys’ regime. From her perspective she’s trying to do good and, as GRRM planned, readers buy into her savior archetype. Years of real world oppression has left a real wish for a character a “good” Daenerys would represent . So I think it’s understandable that the”David Lightbringer channel” people look at her burning slave masters and forget GRRM’s a pacifist and doesn’t believe that was truly the right decision. For me, it bums me out to not see more African-American and other minorities pick up on Daenerys’ mindset that all people she meets are “her people”; or that she “lets people go” into a desert, if they don’t want to be in her regime in their homeland (and not hers, sorta… empire of the Dawn aside maybe). But to Tywin vs. Ned, even that is a muddier comparison. Tywin almost certainly let Rhaenys and Aegon escape, since the Lannisters use the same Padme/Queen Amidala body double technique with Lannisport cousin and Marcella. Much less Starks do it with Theon/Rob, Frey Walders boys/Bran Rickon, Tyrells with Margaery Tyrell/her cousin etc… Where as Ned and his brothers sit by and do nothing as Ashara and Howland is harassed/assaulted, Ned doesn’t keep his promise to Lyanna, executed a guy probably didn’t really deserve it… Just making the point that the “best” and the “worst” of people are not that black and white. I really think it’s important to understanding this story and predicting it’s future.
Well actually, one thing that I really like about Dany burning the slave masters is that it's hard to say that they likely don't deserve it, however from a perspective of actual justice, the notion that Dany arbitrarily decides that some people deserved to be given a horrific death sentence for a crime, while others deserve absolutely no punishment for the exact same crime. It's interesting because killing slave owners is a position that can at least have a moral defense, but Dany's actual choices demonstrate that she is an incredibly unjust ruler who makes decisions based on whatever she's thinking or feeling at the time rather than an established code of conduct and morality that she applies to everyone. And I don't think that Tywin vs. Ned is a muddier comparison really, because Tywin tends to give no fucks about people and has a superiority complex that could rival the Targaryens while Ned at least tries to be a decent person. But Ned is still an incredibly problematic character and there are massive narrative punishments for the mistakes that he makes. Ned wants to do what is "honorable," but he's almost the inverse of Dany in the sense that he just looks at honor as an established set of rules that enables him to not think and not take responsibility for his worst choices because he was doing what the rules told him to do. Plus, the Tywin vs. Ned paradigm doesn't just have to be applied to them specifically, it's just easier to understand Dany's villainy when looking at her actions and questioning whether or not any of the remotely "good" characters would actively make the decision to kill children or burn people alive as punishment.
@@HillsAliveYT for me it's not that I think the slave masters don't deserve to die. I worry more about how she kills them and how good it makes her feel to create death and destruction. And that it would be nice to have some investigation which slave masters are the really bad ones and which of them she could bring on her side even if those are not many. In meereen she jut sits in her pyramid and never really goes some where to get to know the people she rules especially the masters.
Absolutely! Remember Stannis in the siege and Davos coming to his rescue too. It will be worse than that. Also LF may be stockpiling food in the Vale…but People will figure that out. And Dany might have no choice but to come for it with her army and navy, the bloody gate won’t protect them when she comes from the sea.
You left out Sandor stealing from the family that took Arya and him in and how he justified it. Food stockpiled in the Vale will decide the victors. Had Petyr lived it would have put Robin on the throne.
LOL yes I actually did leave a lot of the food politics and scenes out, because honestly there is just so much content and subtext about it that if I mentioned and analyzed it all the video would be like three hours long. And ultimately I sort of feel like the "smaller" moves that characters like Littlefinger or the Tyrells are making to control the food are going to become borderline irrelevant when Dany and her massive squad arrive in Westeros anyway.
Personal View: The food issue will end up helping solidify Bran's rule. Personal headcanon is that the children's magic actually will enable him to make the crops grow. Then again, I subscribe to the theory of lots of the children of the forest living inside bran and allied with him. #itwastheCOTFallalong #godemperorbran
With how things ended it the show I think the winters won't be as harsh as they used to be anymore. When Jon and the Wildlings went back up North beyond the wall you could see the snow thawing and green growing through. They are supposed to be at the beginning of winter yet it looks like spring. May just be the writers screwing up one more thing, but maybe the harsh winters really were tied to the others.
Haha agreed, I've been on the "Dany is a secret villain" train for a long time, but she definitely deserved better than the "everyone thinks Jon Snow is cooler than me so I'm gonna flip my shit" ending.
Anyone who's played the agot ck2 mod knows that marching any army north is a suicide mission. Watching Stannis start out with a 10k stack and being whittled down to 5k-3k by the time the white walkers hit is depressing and hilarious at the same time. But Dany is the magical chosen one so obviously, none of her followers need to be sustained with food or water according to D&D logic. I honestly think that's why people were so shocked with the ending. All the clues to her eventual arc was there from the beginning, but the writers of the show always undermined that message with the way the narrative portrayed her and her actions. So much of the story in Slaver's Bay where she's portrayed as an incompetent ruler was cut from the show; and all her acts of wrath "feel" justified within the narrative. If people stopped to think about them for a few minutes, the flaw in the logic would be obvious, but I know most of my friends didn't. Hers and Jon's stories just seemed so obviously the typical "chosen one" arc, that most of the people I talked to didn't even consider that all the other typical fantasy tropes in the series get subverted.
I’ve recently discovered your channel and your topics on game of thrones have been great to listen to. Since season 7, I found it odd that they mentioned the food issue but it was totally glossed over later on, in favour of big spectacle battles and getting on with the character drama. I always kept wondering how Daenerys army ate on Dragonstone while they were there.
I'm so glad I found your channel. There was a significant section of the fandom that saw the dany turn coming and I remember the reaction to it finally happening seems so overblown to this day. Like.. she let them kill her brother by pouring molten gold on his head in the first season? He was a terrible person and family member and I definitely cheered but I was so surprised that her actions somehow never registered as like, unspeakably violent to a lot of people, especially since the text goes out of its way to highlight the imperialism she's trying to bring back
very interesting! i thought this video might be about Mereen... because if Dany is going to "break the wheel" of slavery, and slaver's bay is the hub of this worldwide ideology, then she would have to destroy all the slaver's bay cities, not KL like in the show. Because the only thing that exists in Slaver's bay is the ideology of slavery... all the resources are utterly depleted. Except fish i suppose. Then she can bring her "children" to the RIverlands, a food bearing region that Tywin has conveniently depopulated. She can bring them on Victarion's fleet. Say what if the dragon horn works the opposite way, and binds Victarion to Dany? Well i've enjoyed musing about this but your analysis seems much deeper. She'll have to wait for spring to bring her army to westeros. Another idea is that Dany's "free" labor might bring agriculture back to slaver's bay.
Thanks! And I wouldn't be surprised if Dany destroys a part of Slaver's Bay or another one of the Free Cities before making it to Westeros, but I don't think anything will be on the scale of King's Landing until she actually gets to King's Landing. Plus, her conquest in Slaver's Bay is actually a great example that honestly, she doesn't need dragons to destroy cities, on the rare occasions that GRRM offers the readers insight into what Slaver's Bay is like now, it's described as essentially hell on earth. I mean, the "liberated" slaves are now selling themselves back into slavery because it's so bad. And I like that aspect of Dany's story arc as well, because she is the only one who possesses these weapons of mass destruction, but in my mind her bigger problem as a ruler is simply that she doesn't know how to rule and she doesn't plan or think ahead very much, which has consequences that are nearly as disastrous as just using dragons to burn entire cities to the ground. As for the Riverlands though, it's somewhat depopulated but the land and supplies were also intentionally destroyed by Tywin. And I suspect that Victarion is not long for this world, and Dany's real "ally" bringing her to Westeros will actually be Euron. And ultimately/unfortunately, I think if Dany is an allegory for American interventionism/imperialism, that her alterations to Slaver's Bay will fail in the end, just as the US intervening in foreign conflicts and affairs has resulted in pretty much nothing good and no lasting changes in real life.
@@HillsAliveYT theres def a chasm between her ability to strategize and conquer vs her ability to rule and fundamentally revolutionize systems when she insists on her own antiquated inheritance.
The food crisis is already a game changer as it is one of the main reasons Jon was stabbed; the Watch has barely enough to feed its own members and Stannis, they cannot afford to share with the free folk.
Omg I just thought about the medieval attrition numbers for an army that needs to cross an entire continent :O I am always impressed at the points you raise which are absolutely essential and I see no one else raise. There is also something else regarding this I have thought for a long time. Seeing as how GRRM likes to put historical parallelisms interweaved into the story, and the issues the coming winter will bring. I cant help but think this is similar to the onset of the Black Plague after the Mongol Invasions, which devastated the region so much that feudal contracts between nobility and common folk had to be rewritten, and lords started vying for laborers with other lords in a competitive market that started developing, which gave way to increased power of the burgher class and eventual dissolution of feudal bonds. Similarly I can see this happening on Westeros after the Great Winter, the little remarks about elective monarchy and council rule in Season 8 would also make more sense from this lens; if the show had gone that route.
Great video. I haven't read the books but a potentially interesting way of introducing this in the show would be for Euron to destroy some of Dany's fleet so the majority of her troops have to travel south overland. Over the course of several episodes, we see the havoc and brutality wrought by her forces in taking resources and suppressing resistance. We also see Dany's frustration at the Westerosi people's resistance to her conquest building. In short, the people see that with her conquest, Dany brings nothing but suffering and disarray. Therefore, by the time she gets to Kings Landing and the people do not welcome her with open arms, there would be some context to her flipping out and burning the city to the ground. Just a thought as to how this issue could have been included in a compelling way.
G. Martin dedicates a lot of effort to writing realistically, including all the 'boring stuff' when it's needed. The way he depicts major battles and historical events, with logistics and positioning, with every detail about diplomacy and possible communication... It's a pity that the show's writers decided to sacrifice all of these for the shock value of comically large battles. That's great how eloquently you've analysed this food security problem through the characters.
Been binge watching/listening to your videos, I'm really enjoying your view on things. I honestly don't think this would have bored me, it would have brought something realistic to the last season which was needed so badly. The last two seasons felt like the main characters were the only ones there in many scenes or at least the only ones had who lines (Cersei not so much) so some actual none main characters having a bit of screen time and very real problems would have been welcome
Your videos might be the most intelligent and thoughtful I’ve ever seen about ASOIAF. The only depressing thing about them is that it makes me think there will have to be three or four more books as opposed to two… In any event, I think your belief that the Rhaegar prophecy is bunk is going to be proven wrong (perhaps misinterpreted by most), but we’ll have to hope GRRM lives long enough for us to find out.
I would guess heading to King's Landing first and burning it to the ground _then_ starving before she makes it north would be a good parallel to Robb Stark failing in his quest for glorious vengeful justice.
Yes, that's something that comes up in Fire and Blood when the Starks finally come to King's Landing after the war has ended, and they'd rather be mercenaries than go back and let their families die because of lack of food.
You have a point. I do want to point out that by taking the Dothraki out of the picture it's going to open up a lot of farmland in Essos. If Danny can get the Dothraki to follow the Dosh Khaleen into becoming farmers and leaders it might work. After all she has already managed to take the Dothraki that followed her to do things like farm in that ghost town in the wastes. So there is foreshadowing of the Dothraki being able to change their ways. If Essos becomes mostly farmland and the Dosh Khaleen (who should be against slavery being basically former slaves themselves) are the ones mostly in power. I could see Essos become part of the solution instead of the problem. Well if Essos has milder winters then Westeros and they are able to farm during the winter. It would allow for trade between the two countries if we can find out what the people in Essos want. I think that Danny has a lot more Story in Essos, if he really wants to finish the Essay storyline. If she gets to Westeros at all it might be only her and the three dragons, with maybe a few people. Somehow I think most of Danny's people are going to be part of making Essos a better place. And it might just be to make a trade treaty with whoever is in charge at that time. Or maybe to help with the zombie problems, before returning to the home that she has hopefully made for herself. Which is what she really wants anyway. Danny's dream has always been a small house with a red door far enough south to have a lemon tree outside her window. Green fields she can run barefoot in, and a house that smells of spices. Being the lady of a farmstead in Essos that she has freed of slaves might be a very happy ending for her. As for the Dragons eating everything. I have always thought that the main problem with the dragons is that they are not on a island or near the sea. The only time where food isn't a problem for them is the hundreds of years they spend of Dragon Stone, or in Valyrian Peninsula. Dragons a very clearly meant to get most of their food from the sea. Meaning they are rivals of the Karens.(wonder who would win a Dragon or a Karen) That said overfishing could also be a problem. However Dragons can fly so far and fast it would be fairly easy for them to find a fishing spot not used by humans. Honestly I have always thought that it might be bad for the Dragons to eat things that are not fish, and that was part of the reason that Danny's three where having trouble eating at first, not just that they wanted it to be cooked.
Well that would definitely help Essos, but that doesn't help the people of Westeros, especially considering the enormous strain that Dany's invasion is going to put on them. And I think your idea is nice, but ultimately it's something that requires Dany to actually stay where she is, organize, and plan ahead, which are all things that she has been demonstrated to hate doing. Obviously all characters have inner conflict, but one of Dany's larger conflicts has been the inner child you describe versus the conquering dragon that she also wants to be, and unfortunately, it seems like the dragon is winning and will ultimately win out within her. GRRM has always been very open about his anti-war stance, so the fact that Daenerys is a conqueror does not bode well for her. And although she of course sees herself as a good person within her own mind, there are really strong indications that her choices have resulted in abject horrors for many of the people that she affects. To me, the point of her no return was when she ordered the wholesale mass slaughter of children in Astapor. It was obvious that she was going to be a force of destruction at that moment and that she was objectively a very dangerous villain even if she saw herself as a hero. And sadly, unless Quentyn's POV is completely unreliable, then Dany has essentially made much of Slaver's Bay into "hell". If she doesn't stick around to fix that (which the ending of the last book implies that she won't), then I feel like she will be a largely destructive force in Essos just as she will be in Westeros.
@@HillsAliveYT She very carefully didn't order the children of Astapor to die. Any person under the age of fourteen was to be kept alive. Fourteen being the age she was when she got married. Thus being the age she thinks of as being an adult. She still has a chance to make Slaver's Bay and most of Essos, if she can get the right people in charge. If she truly wants to be a good ruler, she needs good advisers, and people she can trust around her. Which she doesn't have and is part the the reason she is failing so hard. Like most of the characters I think that there are several ways that Danny can go. I personally think that her dream of a house with a red door is more likely to win then her fire and blood. Because that's what has always won in the past. It's what makes her try to help Slaver's Bay even though it does more harm then good, it's what allows her see the best of the Dorthraki, it's what will keep her from ever sitting the iron throne. Yes Quath seems to want her to go Fire and Blood, and doing so is likely a very bad thing, but that isn't Danny's dream. And if it happened then Danny's story will be a tragedy which admittedly could happen. Overall I think her Motherly side, which wants what is best for the people under her care is going to win. Which means she is likely going to stay in Essos for a lot longer then people seem to think, if not forever. She just has way to much work to do there for it to be reasonable for her to fast-foreward all the way to Westeros in two books. At this point the Dragons going to Westeros without her is more likely then Danny going. Well unless Danny really is going mad, which is possible.
@@hillaryslack2884 Actually she said no child under 12, but even if it were 14 that would still be child murder. And that's assuming that the Unsullied stopped and asked every young-looking person what their exact age was and didn't just assume based on how they looked, there are plenty of children who are younger than 12 who look 12. That's also overlooking the fact that if Dany is mass executing an entire social class then "don't hurt the children" doesn't really matter all that much. An 11-year-old or younger can't really take care of themselves, so the children that she "saved" by not ordering the Unsullied to kill them likely either died anyways or were horrifically exploited by the adults around them. And that's actually a massive problem with Dany as a ruler and conqueror, she thinks in a very immediate sense and doesn't look forward in really important ways, so a lot of the people that she affects are horrifically hurt by her actions in a very predictable manner even though at the moment she thinks she's "saving" them. It's sort of like when she "frees" her slaves in the red waste before burning in Drogo's pyre. Telling a slave that they're free when you're in the middle of the desert, surrounded by roving rapists and pillagers, not giving them any supplies or means of taking care of themselves, and putting them in a position where you've "freed" them but their only way of actually surviving is to follow you obviously isn't actually freeing them. And I appreciate the optimism, but I think that it's incredibly unlikely that Dany isn't the final villain of ASOIAF. She was clearly the most loved character in Game of Thrones, and if the writers were given a route to make Dany into the hero of the story then they wouldn't have tanked their fan-favorite character for no reason. Plus, when the show has done something that GRRM disagrees with, he has directly stated it. I absolutely cannot fathom a world in which D&D would make Dany into the final villain instead of the savior of all mankind and GRRM wouldn't ever mention that they radically changed his idea for the ending.
@@hillaryslack2884 Good thoughts, though Dany needs to get to Westeros to help against the Army of the Dead, so why do you think she's going to stay in Essos for much longer than it takes to burn Volantis (within the black walls, at least)? And how would sending her dragons to Westeros without her actually work?
I disagree. George Martin does gloss over the food issue. He never explains why the multi-year winters of unpredictable length not only don't kill wild plants but also don't cause the human population to plummet when the stored food runs out, with the accompanying social and political problems that accompany famine. In one Bran chapter, he mentions that Lady Mormont wonders if saving a fifth of her harvest would be enough. Given the cycle of the seasons, food storage and preservation should be a huge issue on Planetos, but Arya visits Saltpans without anyone mentioning salting meat and vegetables for winter. Instead of showing us holdfasts, Ned and company could have mentioned that the hold fasts were specifically for guarding food stores. Instead of giving us spooky stories about the Long Night, they could have given us spooky stories about people fighting over food. Instead of mentioning a tourney at the Year of False Spring, they could have mentioned a traditional spring feast of leftover stored food and then explained the consequences of having it too soon. Martin skips all of these. As for the TV series, the food issue isn't handled very well in GoT because GoT is not written well.
To be fair, by the time Danny is in Westeros, her army just respawns. Pretty sure they were eating the spawning unsullied and horses while chilling on Dragonstone.
to me it felt like the season 7 Dany plot was just emptily stalling - i guess to give Dany-Jon romance time to breathe or something? How many times is Dany's fleet destroyed, yet she never seems to lack for ships. The fall of Highgarden and Casterly Rock don't have any impact, and humanely starving King's Landing to death is bizarrely posed as the only moral option. Ignoring food was definitely part of this - if Dany's troops were starving, and it forced her to take land and sack cities, that would have upended the status quo and we can't have that now, can we? Likewise, Queen Cersei should've been instantly overthrown for a variety of reasons, including food-scarcity, but that would also wreck to Cersei-Dany standoff status quo so suddenly those plots points aren't a thing.
I honestly don't know how (book)-Dany is not starving in Mereen. Can the Lazarene really be sending enough food to feed her city, without the fields burned and the bay closed to fishermen?
I know this ultra late, but can't Daenerys import food from Bravos and other parts of the world using Lannister money and Money from Qarth. She could also take lones from the Iron bank. In order to pay off those loans, she can sell some lands from house Tully and Tyrell to the Iron Bank, when tge winter passes in the final years.
I will stand by how well Dany downfall could've played out if the writers took the time to pay attention to her flaws seriously and what winter really meant to Westros, instead we got 'subvert expectations' and it was just terrible and I will never forgive D&D for rushing her arc
It's actually interesting to think of how George will try to handle that aspect in ASOIAF. She's got way too many people to live off the land in Westeros and the fall of Astapor/Yunkai have shown that she can't have supply lines coming from Meereen either. Add winter's arrival and the potential for a scorched earth campaign by whomever opposes Dany and you have the recipe for a catastrophe
Huh, this makes actually a ton of sense! Also, if hundreds of thousands of people are going to slowly starve to death anyway, wouldn't it be easy to convince yourself that a quick death for them by sword or dragon fire is basically doing them a favour?
they even made a point in the show of daenerys forbidding the dothraki from raping and pillaging going forward, before they sailed to westeros. another food supply issue are the dragons, though more so now in hot D, since there are many more, and some larger ones. meat is expensive to produce, and was even more so before factory farming (poor people in many places used to almoat never eat meat, and actually still don't). even real world big carnivores like tigers are very expensive to feed. vhagar would need to be fed probably something like 20 cattle a day if dragons are relatively cold-blooded. and free-roaming dragons would absolutely devastate any animal agriculture, even if they somehow didn't attack any humans. they could eat a whole herd of sheep or fowl for breakfast. large dragons would essentially be unable to remain in one place, because they would exterminate all suitable prey, unless they were kept locked up and supplied with all the animals a huge area around them can produce. btw I think it would have been a fun detail if hot D,introducing the atill operating dragon pit, had shown the vast amounts of dragon shit and piss being taken care of somehow.
I had never even thought of that. Damn. It could also be very interesting to see which potential allies she could make that would help her with the food situation.
I can’t remember who said this. Someone made a comment in the show that there will be fewer mouths to feed after the war. Or after the battle. I wish I could remember who said this.
100,000 Dothraki warriors means 100,000+ horses. Easily well over 100,000 horses. Typically nomadic horse based armies had more than 1 horse per warrior. Also, Khalasars Typically include non-fitghting Dothraki.
Hmm, Well book Dany had her servants collect fruit seeds, and were able to grow things when they can grow things. Also, maybe they raped and pillaged the lands of the mereenese before they embarked, as well as the food stores of the good masters. I 100% agree with you though, and thank you for making this video, inspired!
Totally agree D&D was terrible I think the food shortage should play a big part in helping push everyone south and not have farther south and lose faith in their leaders
I like some of your videos, but videos like these are completely misleading. The show should not be considered cannon - only up to season 4 and at a stretch 5. These type of videos should be theorising over book material only so as to honour George r r Martin and his work which is at best smartly written and would never take the story in the shows direction.
Well the Mongols settled down and adopted the City culture of those they conquered. Dothraki are clearly based off the Mongols. So it's reasonable to assume the Dothraki could also settle down and stop pillaging. Maybe they could even create a new House in Westeros? "House Khal"?
@@daddy_1453 sadly, GRRM is not going with that side of them, he chose the "murder, rape, burn" like the MFs don't even wear armor or use siege weapons, is like he saw nomadic barbarians and went "this folks don't built anything, they just burn, very historical..." Edit: and their religion demands them to hate most forms of civilization
This is in my opinion a misreading of Daenerys and her abolition. Dany didn't burn down the olive trees nor is she the one who built and maintained cities in areas where they have relatively little opportunity to thrive when evils such as slavery are not available. To argue that Dany is morally corrupt because she did not consider the actions the slavers would take to deny the lives of their slaves is accepting the slavers perspective of their society. Dany is not an invading slaver dany is a liberator and while there are definitely conversations To be had surrounding the white saviour themes associated with that, Dany is not as bad or even close to being a slaver by forcing old slave masters to grow crops; Especially when those same slave masters were the ones who directly caused the current food crisis. It is in my opinion wrong to accept Dany as the cause of the food crisis in the same way it is unfair to Blame domestic abuse on the victim standing up for themselves.
Regardless of your opinion on whether or not it is morally right or wrong for Dany to enslave the masters, to call her an abolitionist when she is re-legalizing and profiting off of slavery as well as literally enslaving people is simply factually incorrect.
Would it be accurate to call the American Civil war a war of abolition when in truth slavery still persists in the legal system? I would say yes as the form of slavery (being chattel slavery) has completely ended. The "slave" xaro mentions begs to sell himself into slavery and Dany says he is welcome to this seems counter to the idea that Dany owns him. The "slaves" Dany has are not bought nor sold and presumably consist of either prisoners taken in the sack or old slave owners. Regardless, U complain of Dany being Ill prepared to feed the people of slavers bay but this is the only way she can, to be clear still upsetting still immoral but not counter to an abolitionists goals. Making slave owners and rich merchants work in the fields to atone for their crimes while offsetting the destruction they caused is a long cry off buying, selling, breeding, training and butchering people as animals.
@@ackidack As I said, if you think that enslaving the slavers is some form of moral justice then you're entitled to that opinion and that is really aside from the point I am actually making, I am simply saying that you cannot personally force people into slavery while calling yourself an abolitionist. If you are against slavery as a moral principle, then enslaving anyone is wrong, so again, calling Dany an abolitionist is just simply a false statement from an objective perspective. Opinions can vary on what she does or why she does it, but saying she's an abolitionist is literally objectively false. LOL and yes, I do complain of Dany being ill-prepared to feed people, because like I said, if your only means of generating enough to enable your people to survive is to enslave other people and force them to do it for you, then clearly you're going to have a problem regardless of where you go. I don't think "this is the only way she can provide" is a very good excuse for enslaving people either, and the fact that you don't recognize that her reasoning of "I need it and have the power to enforce my will on others and therefore that is what I do" is a problem is odd. I mean, of course you can make a moral argument that enslaving criminals is better than enslaving the innocent, but once again, you can't claim that someone isn't a slave master (arguably the largest and most powerful slave master in the world at this point) simply because you think her slaves deserve it.
I don't know why dany just let the slave owners keep all their wealth and status. there was nothing she could have done to pacify them since no matter what they would be doing better without her. she should have at least divided all their wealth among the slaves if not kill all of them.
I dont think GRR realizes it, or would really admit it- but it really sounds like Daenerys enacts the typical "communist utopia" where all the existing systems that understood human instinct and at least created stability and people generally surviving- instead results in a system that can only survive short term, and only by quickly exhausting whatever resources the rich people have amassed.
@@jostockton. literally! I don't know if it counts as winning if it took 2+ seasons of plot contrivances to get there (and 7+ seasons of generally butchering characters, arcs, and plots, too). Lmao
@@kyledayton7829 Actually, that's not true. Queen Elizabeth had no subjects. Was she still the Queen? Yes. Queen means female ruler. Granted Queen Helena was a Queen but it was her mothers rule that caused the death of her first born son.. Queen Halena had no agency before or during the war. Queen Alicent did. Why?
Have you watched the video? She says why she's doomed using information that DD icnored. Especially as D and D white washed Danny's action from the book a lot
Yes, we get, you hate Daenerys. You guys would slander a rape victim all day even if the author of the books has called her the most heroic character in the story
“While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarian hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume, A Dance with Dragons.” Written by the author himself. Does that sound like the introduction of a hero to you? Describing her as a “threat” with her Dothraki? She’s a sympathetic character but intelligent criticism of her questionable methods of ruling is not “slandering a rape victim”. Just because Daenerys had a difficult life doesn’t mean she’s fit to rule. You Dany stans are going to have a rude awakening when she turns into a tragic villain in the books. 🤷🏽♀️
Yes, agreed. And I don't think that pointing out that the math regarding the amount of people that Westeros is about to have vs. the amount they can actually feed is even a very pointed criticism of Daenerys as a character at all.
@@NocturnalMelody I that same conceptual plot George wrote Jon, Arya and Tyrion are in a love triangle, Tyrion burns Winterfell and Dany kills Drogo in revenge for hilling her brother. I think George changed his mind a lot while writing the books. He even created the slave liberation campaign for Dany. Basing an argument in that thing is not very fruitful. Also, I agree Dany will most likely be a threat to Westeros and she will bring death and destruction, I'm not a Stan, but the woman behind the video is slandering and she's clearly biased against her. I'll accept she's going the tyrant route by the end of the series, but saying she stayed in Meereen to do a practice run at ruling? The text directly tells us why Dany stayed, she had no options. "I will not let Meereen follow the fae of Astapor or the arpy of Yunkai to get these people again" Dany stays because she know the moment she leaves all the people Tha she helped will be in a worse position. She regrets what happened in Astapor and even later when Xaro gives her an out, she stays "Dany slapped the table I will not leave, you're all my people. It grieves me to say, but Westeros must wait" that's the real Daenerys.
@@V_i_vi_an there are a series of essays online called “The Meereenese Blot”, which cite multiple passages from the books, that clearly show that Dany is turning from her concern of the common people, and more towards taking what is hers with “fire and blood”. Martin said that this person “got it right”. Why would he change his mind about essays that describe the entirety of the last and most recent book? He is very anti-war, and I highly doubt that someone who is anti-war is going to have the girl that believes her destiny is to serve her enemies “fire and blood” be a hero that saves the day. Yes, as you cited, she TRIED. She struggled. It would be far less interesting if she was a mustache-twirling villain who only did evil things. But in the very last passage of “A Dance with Dragons”, she concludes that “Dragons plant no trees.” Hills Alive has explained this concept about Daenerys being a dragon that “plants no trees” very well. She is a great conqueror but a lousy ruler. Westeros does not need fire and blood, or destruction. Seems to me that you are biased FOR Dany. You can disagree, but to say her video is nothing but “slander” shows that you are just a Stan that thinks Dany can do no wrong.
@@NocturnalMelody except the essay is called the meerenese knot, a joke about George dealing with her plot while writing ADWD, and actually I agree with most of the things the essay says, the thing is, that person didn't say stuff like Dany ended slavery to create a new slave sub genre. She needs labor so she hires labor. She offers the former slaves payments, food and shelter for their labor. It's ideal? No, but Meereen is in crisis, that's why she blushes when Xaro accused her. She knows her revolution has been a shit show, that's what George is saying: good people are not the best rulers. Dany has strong ideals but is she bringing more harm than good? It's ard to say, maybe the price for freedom in the future is all this stuff happening now. She started the snowball, maybe she won't see the benefits of her efforts while she lives. Most slave based economies collapsed in our real world, George is not stupid, he's drawing parallels with real world stuff. Does this make her evil like she's painting her? I don't think so. Dany takes her role as queen very seriously, as it's shown through the 5th book multiple times. Will Dany go the fire and blood route? I think so. I think Dany deep down is miserable with peace. She's a conqueror, she feels most comfortable when she's at war taking cities and that's the realization she reaches in her last chapter. What does this mean for the world? A threat as big as the others? Possibly. I say the author of this videos is biased because she puts Dany in a monster category. While I agree a think Dany is going down a dark path, as in a war lord sense (much like many men in the story like Tywin and Stannis who people love but hate Dany for it) I think Dany is way more complicated than that. Dany will probably die a hero to some and a villain to others and that's the beauty of her character, which is the thing I like.
