WHY DO MACHINE SHOPS CHARGE SO MUCH? some people think machine shops charge to much mainly because they don't understand how much work it is to rebuild heads and blocks
I don't usually comment on these forums, but from an engine reconditioner of 30 years experience, you're bang on mate. It doesnt matter if its Model T or a Porsche, we treat them the same, as if they're our own. Love your work, from New Zealand.
I ran a machine shop about 10+ years ago and i can tell some stories. The one that was the last straw for me was a set of small block chevy heads that were completely rebuilt for $145. The guy literally cussed me out and told me he didn't want a set of race heads. The amount of work that goes into old,worn out heads is huge,not to mention crack repairs,guides,seats,cleaning,checking etc.
I am retired now, but I will never forget the guy who bitched , that the weight on the drive shaft that we balanced did not warrant the cost. I do not miss having to deal with the public any more!
Nice work. I have used Bailey's Machine in mesa many times for my 302 and was always impressed with the work. I will have to check out the rest of your videos.
Serious detail,thorough and precise wow. I need to get mine done and I am looking for some one exactly like you to do them. Thank you for this fine video.
Sir, you have done outstanding work on that head, I had the same engine in my 81 Mercury Zephyr one of the best cars I ever own. Being a mechanic I too have had people look at me like I'm crazy when I give them a price for the repairs their vehicle needs. What some of them do not realize is that, 1. They do not have the skills, tools, and resources to complete the task. 2. People have no concept that a Machanic and Machinist are specialists in their trade, years of schooling and training went into knowing what to do. I have worked with a machinist for 4 years and seen the way, you guys work steel. The math you had to take I could not do, so I give you 2 thumbs up. keep up the great work. ( keep the video to show customers so they know what you have to do to get the job done ).
You have done a real good job of showing just what goes into engine head rebuilds. Folks see a hand full of parts and think that all you do is replace the defective parts and use what is still goo and complain that you should have been done with it a long time ago. The one thing I saw that puzzled me was how late it was before you checked the valve steam clearance. I usually do that check on dis-assembly so I know more about what parts I need when I order parts the first time. Still a very good video.
This is an extremely detailed video and you did a great job of making me question what you do and then explaining in detail what you are doing. I was interesting in refurbishing heads and didn't know the exact way they did it but now I know. Great work and thank you
So glad I clicked on this video. I’ve seen a few of your videos and I like your technical explanations. I noticed your UTI shirt. I’m a fellow UTI grad (‘97). New subscriber.
Great video, we just dont realize what magicians you really are wheb it comes to metal... very enlightening, Thank you. This is/was an extreme situation but it does show how complex and time consuming this job was...wish i had a machine shop in Southern Ohio who could prep 6.0 heads correctly. anyway, excellent keep posting stuff like this for us.
Another really great video 7512 - you do a super job explaining what and why and how - I have a Kwikway 22 head machine and I love that ole machine - i use the Newway cutter system and it does a good job thanks Steve
I couldn't do your job. I'm researching the cost to work a 4.2 block for my jeep. I was surprised at the prices I'm seeing. Your videos are helping me understand. Not only am I paying for the labor, the cost of the machines that you use must be pretty expensive too. Thanks for the video!
Hey, great videos! Thank you for sharing so much information that one would normally only obtain when spending a long time working in the trade. Customers and pricing can be a hurdle. Either they watch a TV show and think the job can be accomplished in a half hour or the last time they had similar work done was 1983 and they are used to that pricing level. One of the other problems is: they will see someone, somewhere... online perhaps, advertising "cylinder heads rebuilt" for $99. Since the customer doesn't know the amount of labor and parts it really takes to do a thorough job, the only comparison they can make is price. If a low-baller actually sticks to that price, one should wonder what parts or operations are being left out. Expect a call back part way through the job with "gosh Mr. So-and-so, we didn't realize that you are going to need all these other parts and labor operations too----now it'll be this much. Or, you'll get back junk with a fresh coat of paint. Sometimes, customers just want to challenge price because they like to. Being I own a transmission shop, I deal with these hurdles when selling jobs on a regular basis. Too bad you are about 2500 miles away, I'm sure we could spend many hours talking shop stuff.
Great job done on that head people really don’t know the time and knowledge a man has to have in order to do the job right the first time I know this cause I spent 2 1/2 weeks machine a head just like the one you did in this video
Excellent video. You do excellent work and pay attention to detail. Its hard to find a good mechanic these days and your worth every dollar you are charging. Especially on a hard to find part.
I would gladly pay whatever this guy charges and be super happy he was available as a resource in my area. Talented engine builders like this are a dying breed and super hard to find. If he handed me a bill for $650 I would just say thank you and pay him.
Considering the years of learning and the investment in tools and equipment $650 is cheap if you break it down to the hours spent. You're not making a lot but you enjoy the work so it balances out. After 40+ yrs of being a mechanic and building race cars you'd think I'd learn, a few yrs ago I got caught up in a deal for cheap aluminum heads for my big block Chevy drag car, it'll cost as much as the heads to correct all the problems, for now they're still on the shelf, should have got the Brodix in the first place! Good video, thanks for sharing.
Thanks for posting. This is the first time I have seen the guide / seat replacement demonstrated properly from start to finish. I tried asking for a tutorial on this 30+ yrs. ago, and was told " Get outta here, you stupid kid, figure it out your self! I commend you on your excellent teaching skills!
I hear ya! I did this stuff for 35 years and finally got tired of customers thinking I was running a charity. Anymore my attitude for people thinking all this shop machinery just magically fell into my lap for free, and my expertise was worth minimum wage, is something like this. Go buy yourself a rebuilt off Ebay
This is a great video. The amount of work you did for the money is very reasonable. Years ago I did a 200 head job on a fairmont wagon. I just put the head back on and changed the rings in 2 cylinders. I did this in my garage at home to make extra money. I charged the guy about 200 dollars for all my work. He to ld me it ran better before I touched it. I told him that is impossible since the head was in the back seat when I started. It's one of the reasons I don't work on cars anymore, just my own stuff. I do aircraft work for a living and when I quote a job people are shocked at the price. They expect me to work for half nothing. I have 35 years experience. I tell them I can stay home and lose money. I'm not gonna work for you and lose money. Anyway keep up the great work.Your videos are great.
people do not know the training or the investment in tools that we have. my snapon verus cost 10,000. but if i diagnose a car in short time, I get "but it only took ten minutes,why are you charging so much?" cool video. thanks again.
You don't need to spend ten grand on a scanner . You can get one for a third of that cost and be good to go . Everybody has finally caught up with Snap On and you don't have to pay for the guy that left town without paying for all those high end tools . I know the pay as you go is very tempting but Snap On is geared to the tech. and not the businessman .
I appreciate your time and the way you explain things in detail. I do have a question, I receive may notifications on uploads but often I cant view the video. Is this an issue with youtube or do you only leave your videos up for a certain amount of time. Thanks for your work and taking time to educate the masses, Jack
Last one of those engines I did was about a year ago in a 68' Mustang. The job started out as a clutch job and turned into the engine from hell. The rear main seal was pouring out oil and the rest of the engine was in about the same shape. The head was the wrong one, a late 70's low compression smogger that was severely cracked along with the exhaust manifold coming off in three pieces. I found a rebuilt head at a local machine shop that had the exhaust ears broken on the ends. I cast weld built up the missing ears had it surfaced and redrilled the bolt holes. In the end the whole job ended up being an engine restoration costing around $7,000 total including everything from the front of the engine to the u-joint and straps on the rear end. These things can only be done time and materials, no quotes until you are at the worst part.
This is a precision work! And there is a lot of calculations being done before you machine a hole, and before you match a new valve and even after, you have to verify them! It is a lot of work and I don’t think it’s expensive. Is just that people don’t have a really good idea of how much time and skill this really takes.
Yep bro your right, I learned how to do valve jobs, put in bronze valve guides and port and flow cylinder heads and had all the tools to do it, a 60 gal commercial air compressor, die grinders and carbide cutters, a superflow 110 flow bench with a custom made precision valve opening jig made by a machinist friend of mine. a valve grinding machine and two seat cutting kits one is called (New Way) and the other was the traditional stone grinder set ups. I even had to have a friend of mine head to be welded by Henry's welding in Los Angeles. When you break down the amount of time (hours) and work you put into rebuilding and modifying heads, you are in the minimum wage category for sure, not to mention the occasional cry baby customer!!! That is why I gave it up!!!
By the way, don't forget to charge for shop supplies! Expendables like towels, solvents, sealers, even compressed air not free! During the winter a machine shop needs to stay a constant temperature so the equipment runs in spec. consistently. I just love it when a customer cries about that part of the bill. It's all still part of the service that helps get the job done. Great video 👍Good to see how it's done in a real world manner and not "Reality-based TV" bullshit!
Dude, thank you for doing all of these videos! You do an excellent job explaining and showing everything! I am learning a ton about engines. What do you figure you have invested in all of those special tools? I should have been a machine shop guy - I love all of this stuff!
I feel your pain, I'm a full time machinist in a full service shop and face these issues every day. This would be a $1,000 job in my shop. Glad you use a false guide like me, I use kliners once in a while but don't really like them.
And you didn't even discuss the COST of your Equipment! But thank you for taking the time to make a video that explains what kinda time and money is involved in engine machine work. There must be a sentimental attachment to this Ford 200 6 cylinder for this customer to want this completed..... Or hopefully it's a classic car because that's a hell of a lot of work Brother! Anyway, your my Go To Instructor and hopefully we will meet someday , be safe!👍
I completely agree with your evaluation there are many steps in correctly machining a head and people who are uninformed think it's a walk in the park when it really is not
Great Video, still trying to wrap my head around how much you need to know to be a proper machinist... Its an amazing skill not any jo smo can do. Takes a lifetime of dedication to realy know your shit.... Awsome vid defiantly one of the best on youtube.... If not the best when it comes to machinist tech.. Thanks
I was in the bike game and I hear u loud and clear. Just a complete lack of understanding. Even the simple thing of hand lapping valves takes time. Nice job I get ya. 🍻
i just got an 65' mustang and replaced almost every tune up part you can.. and also had my carb. rebuilt, timed and all the goodies.. I haven't gotten inside my engine yet..The engine runs very rough like its out of timing but i just got it timed....So my question is what would i do next to find out if its my head cracked or maybe head gasket or....?? at this point anything would help me out thanks!! Id like to know before starting any major work. ps love all your videos!!! O/ Gmedina
Very good demonstration and commentary. I like your videos, please keep them coming. Also, if you have not done already, could you give a video on the cost of setting up a machine shop in reference to the tools needed. Thanks again,
Yeah that would be a pretty in depth subject, so much so that I don't even know off the top of my head what that would cost these days most machine shops are a constantly evolving animal acquiring and updating equipment and most spend years gathering equipment but I will give it some thought thanks for the idea.
In 77 I had a 200 head that needed valve seals and one intake valve. The shop unshrouded all the intakes lapped seats and valves and installed the seals. They plugged the air pump holes in the head and ground matched the plugged holes to the exhaust ports. They had to plane the to head only to make it true/flat. It cost about $60 to 80. I thought I got the deal of the century. That engine would use about 1 quart oil in 3,000 miles. It had 92,000 miles on it. $650. is a damned steal in 2018.
I wanted to build an old m20b27 (bmw). 885 cyl heads from a 325is. Checked machine shop prices to get everything honed, cleaned, polished and decked. Sold every part I had and bought a used m50b25. Dohc. 190hp without mods. Overall cheaper way to get 190hp with better mileage. Only exhaust is aftermarket lol.
I pretty sure I had that same 200cid inline 6 in my first ever car, a 1974 Ford Maverick. As to your pricing, $650 is very reasonable for a quality machinist to do the work you did on that head. edit: I bet you much prefer jobs brought to you by mechanic shops to walk in customers. At least they are usually knowledgeable enough to understand the reason why the work costs what it does. Although it passes the sticker shock of the customer to their shop too, lol
thanks for making the video. As for the customer complaining, some just may truly not understand and after explanation they get over it and all is well. However many people will try to call your integrity into question as a way to get you to reduce your price. You deserve to make a decent living so I wouldn't be too bashful about charging these people full price and not letting them bring another thing into your shop. There are plenty of customers that will happily pay a fair price for good work.
Great job of showing how to do the work properly. I used to do that same work for 10 years. I miss doing it. Maybe you could show the equipment you use. I see you are using a Winona Van Norman head machine. it was nice to see you using the same head machine i used to use. Maybe showing the equipment to viewers they can appreciate more what all you have to buy and use to perform the work. Keep up the good work
That's it, that's more than fair. Quality machine is worth every penny. I mean where else can you get non-moving parts that make power. Keep up the good work, I'm off grid out of St John's., AZ. My machinist is in flagstaff. Flag engine and machine. You know it m in my 60,s. Best nch of hotrods over the years. And it's been my experience that engine machinist are generally good natured, and extremely sharp. Don't sweat the whiners, there's plenty of us who don't mind getting what we pay for.
You are right....these "restore a car in 5 days" shows make people think this stuff is not fast, easy or inexpensive....anyone should know that the car game is expensive and is often out of reach for many people....The other problem is that people are ignorant when it comes to acknowledging that EXPERIENCE + EDUCATION = VALUE.
amazing, interesting, very informative, excellent, but where is the rest of the 289 re-build, stops after episode 17? but you are excellent, your videos are honest. just love watching how you put it all together, explaining everything in detail. makes me want to build my dream cobra project, and build my own V8 engine maybe chevy 350 or 427? only problem is I live in Thailand and import duty on auto parts is 30%-80%. ill havr to find away around that. thanks ant a fan from Thailand...
@Mark Godfrey ..................and I'd bet this wonder shop you refer to is long gone too, there's no way to own the needed equipment and pay the person doing the job for that kind of money if what you claim is true.
My pops would always say, Gary you got to understand your paying a skilled person to completely rebuild something RIGHT. which takes A LOT of knowledge and time. Even on a strictly OEM rebuild. Then they have to know how to operate AND be skillful with the machines they use to rebuild engine parts. Those machines are expensive too. Now don't you dare over torque that spark plug and strip out those threads on that aluminum head or I'll bop you up side the head lol!
As long as you're constantly in communication with the customer and keep them updated on what's going on along with money/price talk there shouldn't be a problem. I hate it when very expensive work is being done without my knowing.
I understand the cost customers need to think if they would go to work for free , parts are not just valves I build lift rule dirt track engines & to run up front it cost money parts & machine labor is costly keep up the videos thanks Larry Burns Racing Engines .
I think this is the best instruction example of a head work I have seen. I hope some more gear heads find your channel. This should be shown at all of the tech institutes. Down to earth man. Question, on the initial first drilling of the guide did you let the head float on the table for the drill to self center in the brass guide? Did you touch up the harden seats that the welder of the head installed after you put new guides in? I know, curiosity killed the cat, and I was the student in the back of the class with his hand up. BEST OF LUCK FROM SOUTH FLORIDA...
The core drill has a stepped end that pilots into the old guide/ the seats that were installed by the weld shop were square blanks as well so yes I cut the angles on those as well
Interesting and informative. Don't ever give up your machine shop career and become a cameraman, felt seasick a few times watching that. Also seen another head work video and the machinist coated the valve seat with some type of bond before installing.
After watching this video I've made up my mind and have decided to buy new aftermarket castings for my SBC rather then spending a penny on reburbishing my 882 heads.
My dad told me something 50 years ago that I have never forgotten. He said "You don't get paid for what you do, you get paid for what you know." If you are just getting paid for what you do, you are working too cheap. It's knowing what to do and how to do it that matters.
Reminds me of those customers that get your quote for something then reply, "if I had the equipment I'd do it myself", at this point I'd open the door to the machine shop and tell them, "everything you need is right there (pointing at machines) , go ahead and get started, job takes X hours, if you're done on time I'll pay YOU", funny how I never had one person take me up on the offer.
Yea I hear you it's not just the equipment you need there is also the fact that it takes years of experience to properly set up and operate them it would be like telling a doctor I'd do my own surgery if I had all to right tools and medical equipment
@@Myvintageiron7512 Precisely why I never "paid out", my invitation to go in my shop and tackle their own job is an example of your point, they implied the only reason my price was too high for them is the cost of the machinery, my position is, "okay, everything you need for the job is right there, have at it". If these guys had the talent that they seem to disregard then they would taken me up on my offer. Remember, upon my quote they informed me "if they had the equipment they'd do it themselves", the fact not one of these "power shoppers" took my invitation makes your point, they trivialize the skill component by not living up to their statement of "do it myself".
Nice.. very informative watch your Channel all the time. Actually about to attend machinist School in Columbia South Carolina. So I stay tuned into your Channel.. what type of machine are you using to do the heads
Have you ever bored out a 348,409 Chevy or a 430,462 Lincoln engine ? There is a trick you can do to remove broken bolts with a stick welder as you build up the weld using a vise grips the combo of heat and weld by turning removes the broken bolt . Also use a 1/8 right drill and switch to a left hand drill many times left drill will catch and spin the bugger out then just clean the existing hole with the proper tap .
It's always a good idea to go a few thousands deeper when cutting the seats before pressing in the insert, this will allow a bit of metal to peen over the seat for extra measure of fit.
waltham1957 I’ve seen to many times where someone peened the head and cracked the seats. If you get your crush right that’s all you need. .005-.006 for cast iron and .007-.008 for aluminum. If peening still was a thing you would see it from the factory.
It was mentioned that this was a late 70's head, therefore induction hardened Ex. valve seats. The concentrated heating process that hardens the valve seats also creates residual stresses in the head that may cause it to crack later.
I'm curious about something. I've got a set of 1969 4V 351w heads I was pondering installing my '66 289. I know they need gone through and most likely will need to be rebuilt. Current compression of 9.78:1. By my math would drop it down to 9.1:1 with the larger cc. My question is: With the high cost of machine work, would it be more cost effective to purchase a new set of aluminum heads? Possibly CNC'd. My goal is a hard hitting 8k+ rpm's with total stability.
I have a question regarding a 1996 Jeep Grand Cherokee with the 5.2 V-8. It has 150,000 miles and I might remove the intake to replace the plenum gasket and upgrade with the Hughes plate, anyway I was thinking of removing the heads for a valve job, new seals and decking-- assuming the guides are still good what would I expect to pay?I am looking for a local shop that knows what they are doingThanks
