HELP THE CHANNEL GROW: www.patreon.com/rowanjcoleman P.S - Just to clarify, I'm not saying any of the shows I mentioned are bad. My issue is with the dominance of big franchises, not with the individual shows/movies.
Have you finished watching the third season of Picard? I only watched it because it didn't make Mike and Rich of Red Letter Media want to kill themselves. It's actually good, and yes, it's basically an additional season of TNG, but it's done well and wrapped up nicely. I was 13 when the show first aired, so it was nice seeing them again together, and not have it be forced.
Andor is a breath of fresh air that just happens to be set in a Star Wars universe. They really did pull it off. Take it in 3 episode chunks, as if each chunk is a movie itself; The Heist, The Prison, Rebellion on Ferrix.
I have watched a lot of these Disney series or at least given them a good go. Andor was just a better written and produced show. So it stood out for me but i am a big rogue one fan
This guy is out to lunch, for years he pretended to like nutrek/rey etc, and then turns around and acts like the first good thing they've ever done is bad. Andor is a completely fresh new thing that doesn't even have all that much to do with the rest of star wars.
The prison arc in Andor has been some of my favorite on-screen science fiction in many years. Even if it doesn't "feel" like Star Wars, that's what I like about it. I hate that Star Wars has been flattened into a brand identity when to me, as a kid, Star Wars wasn't about storm troopers and jedi, it was about a vast science fiction fantasy galaxy that was chock full of space adventures we never even get to see. I think it's a great setting with a lot of potential, and Andor proves that. The problem is that you can't brand the concept of science fiction action adventure, you have to have visual qualifiers that you can sell, hence stormtroopers and jedi.
You've nailed it for me. I'm not really burned out on these franchises, just the re-treading of old narratives. I don't really care for stories that are based around the movie era of Star Wars anymore. It's why I love KOTOR and SWTOR so much because they're so divorced from the movies that you can put them out of mind, but there's enough familiarity in the visuals and themes that they still feel like Star Wars stories. I'm really excited for the Acolyte for the same reason. Star Wars does not have to only be "storm troopers and jedi" and Star Trek doesn't have to only be "Starfleet crew flying around in a starship". They're both rich and expansive universes where you can tell almost any kind of story in them. The fatigue comes from the same 1% of these worlds being recycled.
But thats pretty much its Identity. I never get why people wanting Star Wars without the Force and Lightsabers. George Lucas Star Wars was the Story about Luke Skywalker learning about the Force, using it to end the age of Darkness and bring back the Jedi Order. The Force is the key element within the Lore of Star Wars. Why do we need Star Wars without the Force, Jedi and Lightsabers when we can have new and unrelated SciFi Adventures without the Force, Jedi and Lightsabers
@@AlastorD I greatly prefer when Star Wars was heavily inspired on the serials he grew up on, instead of a stand alone mythos. A lot of them have central iconography (John Carter, Flash Gordon), but are also a sandbox to play in and not just the story of a single group of characters that EVERYTHING has to relate to in some way. I think requiring Star Wars to have jedi and the force and stormtroopers in every iteration is a waste given the freedom the Star Wars sandbox provides. But that's my opinion, and you have yours. The Star Wars universe is enormous and has a huge history, with space for so many adventures. But instead it always has to be about Skywalkers. It makes something huge and imaginative seem small to me.
@@Hoju3942 Oh I don't mean it like that. And I really get were you're coming from. I don't say everything they do with Star Wars now should be about the Skywalkers. What I mean is, Star Wars is a Story about Luke and Anakin Skywalker. That Story was told, so they should just end it. We are not that far appart. You say Star Wars should not be limited to the Skywalkers, I say SiFi should not be limited to Star Wars. Leaving all the Mythology and Lore behind and starting somthing fresh and new gives a creator way more freedom. My biggest Problem with Expanding Universes is that it doesn't really expand anything, it limits it from the countless possibilities the audience can imagine to a single set part that is fix if you like it or not. Thats why I like the Extendet Universe approach were Lucas was like "sure, you can write it, fill in the blanks as you like but real canon will only be my movies".
@@AlastorD Mm, so I definitely get what you're saying, but for me it was never about the Skywalkers explicitly even if the story obviously is. I see Star Wars (originally) as the homage to pulp sci-fi that it was intended to be before it became a "franchise." (I hate that word. lol) I see in Star Wars the influences he was pulling from, even in the naming of things. Jedi/jedak, for example. What I loved about it is that it seemed like there were all these interesting stories happening elsewhere in the galaxy, at the brim of the Empire, and nowadays Mando was the only show that really explored that in any real way, and even that in season 2 had to fold itself into the Skywalker stories. I want more Star Wars. I do *not* want more Skywalkers or Jedi. I think the galaxy has immense potential in the same way what it was originally inspired by does. But now when you watch a new Star Wars movie the only things it's inspired by is just Star Wars itself. I think the people making it can do a lot more with it. It's why I love the old Han Solo and Lando books that had little to do with the main story. It was just smugglers and pirates and cardplaying in space, in a world we know, but not in the places that are familiar. But I also love Splinter of the Mind's Eye which came out as a novel before Empire was even in planning so canon clearly means very little to me, haha.
@@GreenAppelPie I really hope they do something with the last three books. The TV series only covered up to Babylon's Ashes, but the ending implied more was to come.
This is a really great take. It’s explained my dissatisfaction with some of these shows. I’ve been rewatching some one of shows and the difference is massive when the storey is the sole focus over franchise and fan service.
Woo a wild Xisumavoid. Also, for me I've been getting into audio books over the last few years, and while a 1-3 book series is fine, far too many series opt in for the 5-12 book series and that's become a hinderance for me to even get into them any more.
Whenever I think I don't like TV anymore - I watch Babylon 5 to remind myself that what I don't like is this creatively burnt-out generation of writers and producers.
Not burned out, too freaking young and admittedly unread. They come to the table through connections not talent. That never ends well. Or darned rarely.
There's a ton of great new programming out there, original or not. And yes, they are trying to redo Babylon 5. And by they we're talking JMS. I really hope they succeed, because B5 was awful. It had a great story, but the scripts felt unfinished, the acting was poor (as if they always took the first table read and went with it), ... it was a victim of 26 episode seasons on a way too tight budget with a control freak at the helm, who wanted to do everything himself. That the studio decided to cancel and then didn't didn't help either. So yeah, I REALLY want to see the story done right. B5 is something that belongs to today, something that could thrive in todays landscape. Shame it's over at The CW rather than something like AMC or Apple TV+. Companies that have the will to push through rather than cancel on a whim, companies that can spend a little. (Has anyone seen Foundation?!)
Strange, I felt the exact opposite; Andor and Picard made me want to watch the next episode and see where the story goes, it's been a while since I had that positive feeling. Both are imho the best of each franchise since a long while. I'm also suffering from franchise fatigue, but so far it is limited to Marvel and Star Wars, it all just feels like rushed productions with half baked stories, needlessly trying to interconnect them all. With Andor being the rare exception. The new Star Trek shows so far have all tried something new and different for which I commend them, Discovery has the least positive impact on me so I feel indifferent towards its cancellation. I'll happily continue to consume more Trek content, I've enjoyed it all so far and as a TNG-fan I love Picard season 3, it's a proper send off for the old cast; decent writing, good directing and great acting all around, it's the first time in a long while where I actually got a bit emotional a couple of times. Edit: Furthermore, I'd argue that the episodic style of Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks is a good thing, in that it is the perfect way to experiment, be creative, do something crazy in an episode. I'd even go so far as to say that (most of) the very best episodes in all of Trek were stand-alone/two-parter episodes like Inner Light. Props for using the ambient Star Trek Online music in the background, love that stuff.
Jessie! Really cool seeing you post here. I really liked the nostalgia video you did on ST:P. Really synched with what I'd seen some other creators talk about recently with Star Wars media (Nerrel's video on Last Jedi.)
@@AlastorD From ‘87 to ‘05the was a Star Trek series on the air. No one complained until the subpar Enterprise series. It isn’t franchise fatigue, it subpar quality. Same with the MCU movies, phase four was poor quality with Spider-Man being the one bright spot. That film did really well because it was actually good. But please tell me go people got franchise fatigue withStar Wars after only the first sequel trilogy film, yet at the same time weren’t sick of seeing three MCU films a year leading up to Endgame.
@@Arbbal During the 24th Century Era of ST you had usually 2 overlapping shows. Recently there were Discovery, Picard, Lover Decks and Strange new Worlds. And I'm pretty sure that high quality is easier to achieve when you don't have to deliver high quantity as well.
@@AlastorD And you just proved my point, it's not an issue of people getting fatigued of the franchises, it's the poor quality that has people tuning out.
@@Arbbal No I say that high quantity could hindering high quality. But I also believe that if viewers are done with something, they wont even watch the new stuff so they wouldn´t even know if its good or bad. I for myself can't argue about the quality of new Marvel movies for example because I havent watched most of them. And I haven't watched them because Endgame was a good Endpoint. After that I was just ready for something else.
It's why I love the Expanse and For All Mankind as the best of the new crop. Rich new world's to explore, endless possibilities... But they're streaming shows, with small audiences with no connected known IP. It's tough out there for something fresh.
I guess when it comes to the question of what Picard 3 adds to star trek, my take would be that it gives us a final solid ending for those specific characters that we originally got in All Good Things and then lost to Nemesis. Sure to the franchise overall it doesn't seem to add much but it finally is a solid ending for the TNG crew to finally evolve from a great team to a family.
I've felt this way for like most of a decade. The Star Wars franchise, and fandom, just drained me of a lot of the excitement and wonder which that property used to give me. There's just a pervasive dark cloud over everything now, because people are so reactionary and make their opinions their personalities and identities. Then, Picard came out and it was the final nail in a lot of ways. That franchise, and its characters, are basically done to death. That all being said, franchise fatigue pushed me back to being selective about my media intake and also not invest myself as heavily. There's plenty of fish out there in the sea, but tread cautiously friends, as some (if not most) fish collectors are psychopaths with a WiFi signal.
Yeah, I totally get this feeling as well. At the same time, Strange New Worlds was something comfortable I could get into, and Picard season 3 gave me that nostalgia hit I never got from seasons 1 or 2. I haven't watched Andor or Mandalorian season 3 yet. What gets me about Star Wars is the they have 25,000 years+ of history to play with, but they keep going back to the same 30 or 40 year block time and making everything happen then and then seemingly coming up short, because they can't mess (much) with continuity. Set something 5,000 years ago or 5,000 years from now and go nuts.
I have that same problem but with Trek. It's a huge universe with hundreds of planets in the Federation alone, and somehow Seven of Nine is stapled on to the TNG crew and we're still watching Spock, or yet another of his unheard-of siblings and Kirk. For the love of god creatives be creative please just once i beg you. Also Andor is something very unique, they elevated Scifi television with that show. It's gone beyond star wars culturally and artistically, Andor stands alone and it is fuhken brilliant.
I have this issue with Trek. While I like Discovery, I've always been confused as to why we've had major productions past Voyager and Ds9 until Picard. Why the hell can't we go further in the timeline?!
@@ericmarshall3629 I was about to bring up Dawn of the Jedi. The question now is will those complaining about Star Wars focusing on the same time period support a film going into a completely new era.
@@theemeraldboars484 Besides Picard, Lower Decks and Prodigy are set after Voyager. With Season 3, Discovery leaped into the 32nd century, which is farthest Trek has ever gone into the future. If rumors are true, Starfleet Academy will be set in the same time period.
@@abett6111 Yeah, that show is tragically flawed in so many ways. I've been hoping the BBC would reboot in the same way as Doctor Who was for a number of years, but we've had nothing of the sort.
Honestly, in my mind, I'm happy to see tales in the fictional universe that I like, for good or for ill. I'm the sort that can't get enough of it, and am always happy to see the universe, see what's going on, bump into the characters I love, and find new ones to like. I always like how Adam and Ben of the Greatest Generation put it: "Star Trek as a place". And I like going to that place. I enjoy new things too, don't get me wrong, but some days I want to come back and put on the fandom equivalent of my comfy slippers and dressing gown, and for me that's Star Trek.
I've had star wars fatigue for a while now and I never thought I'd say it, but I'm now getting star trek fatigue. However, Andor was really great. Someone insisted I watch it and I was not disappointed.
Well said. As a child in the late 70s and early 80s, who used to go hunting for the 'crashed Millenium Falcon' in the fields with my friends, I would have loved nothing so much as a Star Wars multiverse with more and more stories in it. Now, as not only an adult and father but soon to be grandfather, I just don't give a toss after what the sequel trilogy did to my childhood heroes. Trek, almost the same. I came to love trek later then most, as a teenager during TNG's run, loved the movies, loved Voyager (hated DS9 for being a Babylon 5 ripoff, yes I took sides) but by the time of Enterprise, I just didn't care anymore. Nowadays? I care less. Watched most of Discovery season 1 before thoroughly burning out on everything Trek and Wars. I never would have thought it back in the 80s and 90s, even 2000s.
I don’t think franchise fatigue exists at all. I think what you and some others are experiencing is apathetic studio fatigue. If a franchise is good people can watch it endlessly. What makes it tough is when a franchise pushes out cash grab after cash grab. Franchises don’t die because people get sick of coming back, people get sick of studios taking something popular and milking it in a way that’s cynical and doesn’t pay respect to why people liked that thing in the first place thus turning the franchise into something people slowly begin to resent.
This is a fair point. I heard someone give the example of Nintendo, when they make a Mario or a Zelda game, those are flagship titles treated with reverence, and they put all their effort into ensuring they are fantastic. Sadly, the same cannot be said for Star Trek or Star Wars. Those are treated like disposable pump and dumb schemes, something guaranteed to bring in money regardless, so why bother trying? Where when they do get an interesting and thoughtful installment, it's an outlier. Picard S3 is the best season of Picard, but that is not high praise. The season is watchable, but not fantastic. Andor is the best Star Wars spin-off, but that is not high praise, it is too little too late.
I would agree except for that last bit. Paying respect is not the issue; in a way it's the opposite. It's not doing anything new that causes fatigue in this way. When you spend so long making media that will only appeals to fans of thing, eventually fans of thing will get tired due to oversaturation and you won't acquire a new audience either. You have to let a series grow beyond just what made it popular in the first place in order for it not to stagnate as a piece of art and entertainment which is pretty much what all franchises are stubbornly refusing to do right now.
I totally get where you're coming from. This will be an imperfect analogy, but once upon a time I reviewed records for my own website and several magazines. At a certain point, it felt like an obligation to listen to music, when previously music was one of the driving interests in my life. Your retrospective videos are some of the best on RU-vid but it's also possible that you might be watching with that sense of obligation lurking in the background. Once I stopped reviewing stuff and just listened to whatever struck my fancy, that weariness with music went away. Something to keep in mind. Personally, I'm thrilled with all the Star Trek entries over the last few years (and of course, I'm just a typical viewer who doesn't need to ever write critiques). For me it's filled the niche of being comfort viewing and overall a whole bunch of entertaining stories. The final Picard season was just a joyride for me. I won't say more since you mentioned being halfway through. It does strike me that most of us probably had real franchise fatigue when Enterprise came out. It is far more enjoyable to me now than it was when it was on the air. I suspect a lot of people may come around to this era of Star Trek as well. (Except the slow talking Klingons from season 1 of Discovery...never could accept that)
I think it's a mix of over exposure of the IPs with wild swings in quality/tone that gives us apathy towards new content even if it's what we've been asking for as an audience. I'm going to watch both eventually though because they do seem to be listening to the audience and I want to support that. Things like Picard Season 3, Strange New Worlds, Andor and before it Rogue One still give me hope these IP will continue to release enjoyable projects aimed at older fans like myself who grew up watching TNG, B5 and BSG, while still pushing the IP forwards in other projects for all their new fans the new direction gained.
I wouldn't be so fast to blame the writers. The execs have the money and decide what scripts are produced. So if the writers want to be paid, they have to write what an exec thinks will make money. I'm sure there are tons of great scripts out there. But people keep watching the shows with their favourite logos, so that's what they want to make.
I must defend Lower Decks: that series is so much fun opening up the Trek story universe to show the more mundane intricacies of the UFP, albeit in a tongue-in-cheek way. The fact you can see that through the POV of the lower ranked working stiffs of the crew is even better as grow into being the fine officers of the line is even better.
I'll never grow tired of franchises *as long as the creators have a worthwhile story to tell*. It doesn't necessarily need to break new ground or expand my understanding of the universe. It just needs to be a compelling story, and it needs to be made by people who care about what they're creating. This is why Andor is my favourite series of recent years, and why I barely remember a single scene of the Obi Wan show.
To my mind, the problem is not franchises, so much as noticing lazy and/or rushed film-making more as I get older. Everything, Everywhere, All At Once wasn't good because it wasn't part of a franchise; it was good because it had an interesting core idea, and the people behind it thought about it, and put care and attention into making it good. There's also a visibility issue - a bad movie (or whatever) that isn't part of a franchise is unlikely to come to people's attention in the first place, while a franchise movie, particularly one attached to a franchise that has been good, is going to get noticed, even if it's otherwise aggressively forgettable.
When creators were the ones to do the follow ups, the fan service was built in because the creator was the same, so the product came from the same source. When executives stick their noses in, that's when things could go wonky real fast though.
@@TheRadioAteMyTV that’s why season three of Picard was so good, and Nemesis was so bad. Terry Matalas is a huge fan, while the director for Nemesis wasn’t.
A video I didn't expect from you but one I'm happy that you made. Sure, I really really liked Andor and there are other pieces of franchise additions that I like as well, but in the end, it is 95% of the the original(s) that is the (only) important part.
I completely and totally agree with your philosophy of sharing your opinion without crapping needlessly on things or other people's opinions and tastes. I also appreciate that the opinions you share, you declare as such and usually if not always have well thought-out supporting reasons for why you feel that way. Thank you for what you do.
While I agree with your major points, I think Star Trek is still in a good place because every show has its own unique premise -- Discovery is exploring the far future, Lower Decks is a workplace comedy, Strange New Worlds is episodic adventures in the TOS era, etc. So far the franchise fatigue hasn't set in for me, will see if that changes.
Andor is exactly what you’re saying is needed: totally new take that expands the source material. We see how the rebellion started and how ordinary people eventually decide to rise up. That the tone is different is just the same as TOS to TNG to DIS
While I can't speak for Star Wars (as I'm not that much of a fan to begin with,) for me personally Star Trek will always be worth being a franchise (and for me always be worth watching) because of how versatile its premise and universe is; Even if there are similar old elements in each new series, there's always something new that I feel makes it worth existing, Picard was more than just Season 8 of TNG, Strange New Worlds is more than a modernized TOS, and Lower Decks is more that its references, each gave us new characters very different from one another, showed us new sides to the returning ones, and added new elements and ideas to the universe. And while I do agree new original content must be made and appreciated, it's also important that franchises aren't abandoned either, otherwise potential stories from those shows could be lost; And there is to consider that these new shows are someone's first experience with that franchise, and that they may have never have given the original work a changes until they were exposed to those new shows. And for me personally, It's not a franchise fatigue I have, but a fanbase fatigue; Like you said, there's so much discourse (in-fact too much) when it comes to franchises that it became so overwhelming that I nearly ended up hating those franchises I was a fan of, hell the fanbase is why I don't care much of Star Wars anymore, in the end I disconnected almost entirely from anything related to those franchises online to the point I don't even search news, fan made content or even interact with other fans, I isolated myself because I wanted to feel joy in watching the shows I like.
Thank you. Yes. However I think fans aren't the issue... well, some are. I try to avoid those negative RU-vidrs that do click bait all the time and hate on everything for dumb reasons. They tend to have followers that do the same (often times not even having seen the thing they hate so much). It's best to blend them out. For example I like the positivity of Trekcentral, Trekyards, ... even if they sometimes dislike something... usually that is justified.
I dunno, Planet-of-the-Week stories get old after a while. But to be fair, that was one of the things I liked about Star Wars: Clone Wars, that they spent some time visiting other planets and learning about alien cultures like in Trek, but while engaged in a long-term conflict that motivated everything. Stargate SG-1 also did this. Babylon 5 did this in reverse, with the alien cultures coming to them. Star Trek did that from time to time, but not as often.
I agree with the fanbase fatigue 100%. I just feel like we've hit a bit of stagnancy with Star Trek and Star Wars because the fans just want fanfic to be produced for the screen. The times that creators want to do something interesting and inventive to breathe some life into a decrepit franchise (Discovery, The Last Jedi), there are a lot of fans that just end of moaning and complaining that we aren't getting season 30 of TNG or episode 20 of Star Wars. I would challenge you about "potential stories being lost" though! Are there stories that are so intrinsically linked to the setting that they could not simply just be told in a different universe? Sometimes I think we do a bad job of separating out the lore (e.g., trivia, Memory Alpha fodder) for the general themes and background.
@@bjorn00000 True, A story can work without the need of the franchise, but I do feel that sometimes the additional context of a story set in said franchise can add something more, for example a story about the "little people" in a fantastical world can work on its own, but Lower Decks shows us that in a series that rarely showed that side.
@@jakeaurod For me the planet of the week formula is why Star Trek has endured for so long, and makes Star Trek a very versatile franchise, different crews on different ships discovering different worlds or strange phenomenon's, this gives a core to Star Trek that can be played about with in both major and subtle ways.
Do not apologize, Rowan! Everyone is now tired of endless extensions of extensions, references of references, remakes of remakes and reboots of reboots. The stock market is leaving it, too.
That actually hits quite deep. Was hesitant to watch "another video about Walking Stars Games Trilogy TV Series Expanded Metaverse" to discover first breath of fresh air in the whole discussion since 2015 when Force Awakens came out.
If I remember correctly, there was a huge gap of nothing going on Between Enterprise and Star Trek '09. Even the franchise itself was tired. Correct me if I'm wrong. 🤔
I really felt this when I saw that characters from Lower Decks would make an appearance in the next season of Strange New Worlds. It just feels incredibly cynical. I can't imagine that it came about because some writers had a great idea that couldn't be done any other way. The only thing that makes sense to me is done executive saying "hey, these two things are both popular, let's smash them together." Generations was a great example of the same marketing over storytelling.
I absolutely understand your fatigue and figured it would happen fairly shortly after your retrospectives you dove so deep into so many franchises it was bound to happen. To answer your question as to why there are so many and are they necessary the answers are, there are so many because they are obscenely profitable and they are so profitable because we all want to see the worlds we love expand. It is the very reason why you have such a successful channel we want those worlds to expand and grow and because we want that and companies like making money those franchises get to reach to areas I and others like me never thought they would be able to. Does this mean I like everything that happens when it expands, not even almost, but do i like that it is expanding and do i like enjoy seeing these worlds grow through the lenses of different story tellers...absolutely. Listening to you break nerdom down with empathy, optimism, enthusiasm, and your own personal perspective is amazing. In the 90's felt i was the only one who would love to get lost in these worlds and franchise and I get excited for each new series. Good or bad each new franchise add's to the world we all love and while as a whole they aren't always mind blowing they do expand on something i love and i am not sad for it.
Some of my fondest memories as a kid are from watching DS9 after school on a Thursday evening. However, I do think with a lot of the later offerings from the franchise there is a severe lack of originality which contributes to "franchise fatigue." The writers just start essentially copy pasting episode ideas/serial arcs; which, in turn just increases the level of fatigue.
With regards to Strange New Worlds, I see it as the creators saying, "This is what TOS would have looked like if they had access to the kinds of tech and budget we enjoy today." I am very interested to see if they will re-create "The Cage" as an episode.
What an excellent video. Personal without being sensational. You make some good points that I will confess I don't see eye to eye with all of but your main point is something I simply can't disagree with. Your point about a "breath of fresh air" for an establised franchise versus one for a completely new franchise hits hard. Personally I'm the sort of person that can take or leave additional material for the main franchises. Sometimes it slaps, sometimes it doesnt but I never made it my personality. You let it go and move forward. I world maybe argue (as a Star Wars fire and foremost really) that The Mandolorian and Andor did for Star Wars what DS9 did for Star Trek. The devil was in the details of day to folks surviving painful change and oppression. But again, you are correct. Pop Culture needs new fertile ground. It's a risk/reward scenario that will always held the studios back. That stings even worse when they create something very unique and long over due only to drop it like a hot coal because it failed financially (case and point - Dredd). Any who, listen to me go on. Excellent video and keep up the good work. I hope to join your patreon very soon. "Arnold Rimmer Salute"
Great video! I've been thinking about why I enjoy more individual shows or movies even if they are technically part of larger franchises. It gives me the sense of getting to try new ideas for stories out without needing to start from the beginning. However, it does cause that same kind of limit you mention with feeling like they don't add as much to their series. Media is weird when it comes to whether or not something has a place to exist given a need to balance the new ideas brought by the creators with some sort of familiarity with franchise, creators, or studios to get an audience.
Agree with this take. It's not even like some of these things in franchises are arbitrarily bad/mediocre, they're just hindered by being associated with Thing. I want that same uncertainty I had going into the final book of the Expanse when I watch something like Andor. Knowing how things are literally going to play out, or at least knowing the thematic blueprint in the case of a sequel, really sucks a lot of the excitement out of a show or a movie for me. Original things can creatively achieve everything a prequel or sequel to Thing can and has the potential to realise it so much better.
Andor is a masterpiece! And S3 of Picard is great. But yes, there is a lot of franchise fatigue. But Picard S3 had become so popular, that people were leaning spoilers online. That’s when you know a series is being watched by millions.
We love your honesty man! Thanks for sharing your POV. Like a lot of your opinions: I agree with most but appreciate you making me thinking about the stuff I DON"T agree with. Thank you!! I read between the lines with MY franchise fatigue and most of what I see is a cash grab wrapped up with some fan service. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy some of the shows you mentioned but I also, would appreciate something new and original. "In universe" or better yet, out!
The Expanse and For All Mankind have been mentioned multiple times in the comments. I'll add Foundation to the list. So, you have options for new shows.
I loved both the shows, but that's a great point: they may have both been served better in original settings/stories. But I do think that of the two shows we're talking about here, Andor did far more to service the SW universe than Picard-3 did for Trek.
Picard S3 was about giving those characters a better goodbye for all those characters, though. I did appreciate that they all went in relatively new directions and had conflicts other than those we'd already seen. Plus they gave us new characters that were developed enough for us to actually care about them. By the end it was as much about moving on from nostalgia as reveling in it which is a good thing.
Rowan. You just gave voice to every frustration I have with not only Star Trek and Star Wars but in recent years Sci Fi in general. Star Wars should've ended with Return of the Jedi and stayed buried. Franchise fatigue is very accurate. Star Trek fans keep forgetting that Picard, Strange New Worlds, Lower Decks, and awful Prodigy all owe their existence too Discovery.
I feel the same for Dr Who. But it's due to the writing. When Dr Who got cancelled back in '89, the stories where gripping. I'd been watching the show religiously for about 10 years at that point, and was still excited for each new serial. The current series feels like an obligation. Keep watching it, so you know what's been when the show finally gets good again 🤞 I'm hoping the next series is a marked improvement over the last 10ish years, so my wife and I can stop referring to the show as "Disappointment".
One of my issues with the timeless child reveal was that it proposed the possibility of so many Doctors prior to William Hartnell. & it just seemed to be pitching “we can make so many spin offs & incarnations of the Doctor” & I just don’t care. There’s no point going backwards in the timeline like that & for a “huge twist” it added nothing. It didn’t help that series 12 was formulaic & so referential to the shows past that it just made me tired of the franchise, even if it can get better in the future.
@@BH-98 Totally agree. I really feel like Jodie Whitaker got the short end of the bad writing stick. In the episodes where the writing was half-decent she shines, but the whole run was just let down by almost fan fiction levels of story telling. Timeless Child feels like such a complete retconn/reboot that it feels like it should have just been a separate property (could have told the story using a different Time Lord maybe.)
@@UD503J having the Doctor be the timeless child was really predictable, & I do agree it would’ve been better if it were used to introduce a new character. Would’ve been interesting to see a prominent time lord that isn’t the Doctor or the Master again.
I personally wouldn’t call Picard S3 a breath of fresh air as it kinda just rehashes what’s already been done. Prodigy and Lower Decks were refreshing, Picard S3 was a trip down into the depth of nostalgia
You ask the question "What artistic reason is there to turn something into a franchise?" (paraphrasing) but I think a question that is equally important is "what artistic reason is there to not turn something into a franchise?" I would love to hear your thoughts on that. I do not believe that a work in a franchise needs to "enrich" the rest of the franchise in the same way that I don't believe that Battlestar Galactic needs to enrich Babylon 5. Those are standalone works that should be good on their own. As long as it doesn't do something to harm the franchise I don't see too much of a problem. You also briefly mention using a franchise as a crutch and while i do agree that from a commercial standpoint that is very much what's happening. Existing in a franchise does have its benefits, one big one for sci-fi is that it allows writers to not have to give as much exposition and not do as much world-building. This absolutely can be beneficial because even in the best-written works with the most seamless and subtle exposition it can change the pace of the story or adjust the kinds of stories that can be told. But without having to do that you get stories will more context. This means that a given story might not enrich the franchise, but it can most certainly be enriched *by* the franchise.
I agree totally I loved that the 80s and 90s gave us such a wealth of original property, sadly a lot of those highly original concepts have become massive franchises locked in by cannon and fan service, meanwhile new and fresh ideas are not being given enough time to gain audiences and getting cancelled if they are even given a chance, not to mention they are being assessed for their ability to create a new franchise.
For years I've said, "Every bartender, waitress, car hop, dog walker and nanny in Hollywood has an _original script_ in their pocket they are desperate to sell. Meanwhile executives are culling though the _Nick and Nite_ schedule looking for their next "new" show." I'm surprised they haven't rebooted _Sanford and Son._ Eddie Murphy and Martin Lawrence could do all the characters including Aunt Ester.
I feel Disney has been producing star wars content scattershot, too much too often. And I agree with what you said. Andor was different in tome enough to be more interesting. Disney has just done too much that’s so similar or connected, that there’s no time to build anticipation. With new Trek, all the new shows (discovery/lowed decks/prodigy/strange new worlds/Picard) have different tones, different target audiences, and are different enough in their shared world and with enough time between seasons to build the hype. I enjoyed Picard despite it’s issues and changes but I’m glad it had an end.
Top of the line commentary, and I see where you're coming from. I was afraid The Expanse would be too "low tech" for my tastes, but how wrong I was, and what a first-rate ride that show became. Just like Babylon 5...
It feels like the points you make to argue for Andor should have been it’s own show, could have been made for Deep Space Nine being it’s own show. Franchise fatique is real, it’s just not one show.. it the exhausting onslaught of new Marvel, Star Trek, Star Wars and DC content.. every single quarter. I had completely checked out of Star Trek, being a superfan in the 90s.. and Star Trek Picard season 3 actually got me properly back into Star Trek. Been catching up on s1 and s2 TNG with my boys, having seen various TNG eps and Picard season 3… they love it. Star Trek actually provided a safe haven for us having checked out of Star Wars (sans Andor) and Marvel Studios. Then I saw the SNW S2 trailer… and there was that franchise fatigue. Can these franchises slow down a bit… look I promise I’ll stay subscribed. More, regardless of quality isn’t always better.
You nailed how I feel exactly about all these shows. I genuinely just can’t be bothered watching them now. I’m completely fatigued with Star Wars etc now
Very much so. Somehow it now feels refreshing when a movie is just a single self-contained movie instead of part of a huge franchise. When it comes to Start Wars & Star Trek I barely bother. It has been so many shows recently so they dont feel special at all, they are just there
When I first saw Star Wars back in '77, I did read a press release from Lucas, that it was always supposed to be three trilogies. I also noticed in the many subsequent years that this "trilogy of trilogies" concept seemed to drift in and out of favour, sometimes with denial, sometimes with affirmation. It was a bit of a roller-coaster, but well, these days, 9 movies are now history…
Franchises exist more because the people providing the funding lack vision, and it's way easier to imagine something that doesn't exist on the basis of how it compares to another thing that does. Stories in a new universe with new characters is usually replied to with "So it's like this crossed with that", or it comes with the description built in from the beginning, so you get the same tired ideas, with the same architypes, and the same twists, and the same everything over and over even when it's not a franchise. New ideas come with too high of a built in risk when vision and imagination can't be used effectively by the people with the money, and it doesn't matter how good writers are, no money equals no movie or game.
Another thing about originality, it is so important to the sci-fi genre. Sci-fi is supposed to say something about us, right now. But if sci-fi is stuck in franchise limbo, how can new stories and new commentary on our world find a space. Honestly I haven't even heard of that Creator film and just those few seconds of trailer clips you showed got me more excited than anything Disney has pooped out in the last 10 years.
I think part of this is because a lot of the corporate powers are being risk-adverse. A totally new show can flop, and a mediocre one will just get forgotten. With established franchises, the same is true, but they'll still make more money. Second, there are a lot of fans who want more of these franchises. So, while they may not be adverse to new stories, they are eager for more in the same universe. Marvel did something, IMHO, pretty good for the Infinity War part, weaving multiple movies into a connective narrative. I'm impressed they managed that, honestly. However, one thing I've realized about myself is that I don't really fall in love with a story. I fall in love with characters. And in doing so, I often feel like I want more stories with those characters. For example, arguably the first two seasons of Picard weren't the best story-wise. But they were *Picard* and I could enjoy having both he and Data sit down for a meal and have a conversation... I guess the other thing I find fascinating are settings. For example, the Matrix was to me an intriguing settings (even though it borrowed from many similar ideas). Combine that with Neo and Trinity, and you have a combination that I strikes a chord with me. That's not to say I don't appreciate a story, but I don't get the same visceral feeling from even a very well-crafted one. And if I don't care for the characters, I might not appreciate it at all.
Fatigue for Andor shows a pretty significant lack of attention given while watching. It’s done more unique stuff than Star Wars has done with anything since the original trilogy and is quite possibly better than Empire. Watch it again, but do so without the assumption that it’s negative. Picard s3 was better than the previous two for sure, but it was still quite the mess, although a much more coherent, entertaining mess. It also undid basically all of the TNG films, which is a good thing.
Finally, someone said it. I was getting low key tired of all these franchises expecting me, a casual fan, to just know every deep cut and cheer for it instead of telling me a good story that feels like a natural progression of the franchise rather than a fan-service flash-back cash-grab. It really says something about the franchise when one cannot get enjoyment from it or understand why the story/characters did/said what they did/say without watching an explainer video on youtube.
@@stevieboymkii The Expanse is still on my to-do list. And B5 is my all-time favorite. However, I didn’t include it because more B5 content is on its way to us from JMS right now.
I have been taking my time to watch tv and avoid spoilers. Have fun with watching it, which I feel like people have forgotten to do that. I think fresh ideas need to happen 1000 years before or after Star Wars and Star Trek.
Thank you for this. I've had such a hard time with these shows and this is exactly the problem. Beyond issues of writing/continuity, it's the entire franchise fatigue. Gimme new shit! Be creative.
The Empire may have blown Alderan in Ep 4, but point to the number of people that were really, and i mean really affected by that event. We NEVER see the surface of the planet, we never see the people there, and no character we know about (at the time) was even there when it happened. On the other hand, in Andor, that prison break scene has us living with and getting to know more then a handful of the people affected directly, and many more by proxy. When a person at the end of it can't make it because he can't swim...... and yet, he was crucial in organizing the escape..... well, you tell me which one carries more weight.
Even Leia seemed more affected by Luke mourning Ben than by the death of her entire world. And Luke seemed far more affected by the death of some old guy that he had known for about a day or so than by the deaths of the people that raised him.
I really hate that line of thinking in fiction and real life. You shouldn't need personal involvement with someone to feel sympathy for their deaths. The destruction of Alderan should horrify you specifically because you don't get to see them. It's left up to your imagination what lives people lead and what they could have been before they were taken within a single second. It's been called an allegory for the use of nuclear weapons for a reason.
@@ManOutofTime913 well, it would help if people in the movie, including a senate member from that planet, would start cracking jokes a couple of scenes later...
Yeah I mean apart from Andor, I’m definitely feeling this kind of thing with Star Wars, maybe because recent announcements have been both lacklustre and directionless, but this is definitely not the case with Trek for me, I’m happy that they’re continuing in the way that they are, particularly excited for upcoming stuff like SNW and Lower Decks!
Nailed it. I feel this way exactly. I have dropped pretty much every franchise and enjoy one off miniseries, like the Elizabeth Holmes series and standalone shows like Barry but mostly I just watch youtube videos and I am pretty much done with Hollywood. Oddly I still watch youtube videos about hollywood content but not the content itself.
I think this video explains why I love Warehouse 13 above a lot of other series that are much longer out there. Edit: Also not a pitch to see if a Warehouse 13 retrospective could be a thing XD
You make some good points, and I would go to the movies so much more often for an original sci-fi (especially if there are good guy aliens!), but I am also a sucker for a long series, whether it's TV or books or whatever. I'm an elder millennial and I've been a Trekkie since kindergarten (a few seasons into TNG) and had new Trek for most of my childhood and all of my adolescence (class of 2002), and I devoured the shows and also the novels. Once I had regular internet access I started devouring the fanfiction, which has more of the slice-of-life and relationship stuff that I like better than the adventures (and stuff that is rarely if ever touched on by the source materials, like queerness, kink, or trauma). I have a lot of other fandoms that I'll get into for months or years and watch/read all the source material and then read literally millions of words of fanfiction. I'd love more one-off original movies or miniseries, but because I'm the sort to always want more, I'd wind up wanting follow-up novels or reams more of fanfiction than they are (like Jupiter Ascending, if that became a cinematic or literary universe I would So Be There), so *shrugs*
I just want to say I loved your video and I think you make excellent points! I love Star Trek and Star Wars but I think it's better for everyone if we have new stories rather than try to either repeat stories than have been told before or try to fit a new story into existing canon. That's one of the reasons why I appreciate Babylon 5 for example. Again great video.
I totally understand where you are coming from with "franchise fatigue" but I watch Star Trek and Star Wars for pure escapism. I like the universes both franchises have created and so I want to immerse myself in them, even if they aren't fresh ideas. Of course, I want the fresh ideas too!
I have no interest in the other Star Wars shows, and not any current Star Trek shows. Andor was the only thing that really felt fresh and different, and I just want more of that. Hearing that Picard discarded weird bad writing for nostalgic writing was actually exhaustion-inducing. I am keen for The Creator though, so thanks for the recommendation. That was off my radar.
It's really down to brand marketing and the fact that it does equate to ratings. This won't change much until people start supporting original art and ideas over rehashes and recycled content. It's really that simple and yes Andor as a show would have been much more engaging as it's own thing, same with Discovery and as an added bonus you don't have to deal with fans arguing over continuity.
I think the issue with franchises is that as a fan you sometimes feel obligated to keep up to date with your franchise. This ultimately leads to watching stuff out of obligation rather than excitement. It is okay to step away from the franchise for months or even years. I've lost interest in Star Wars for about a year now. I watched Andor out of Obligation and actually did enjoy it, but watched about an episode a month at one point. Now with the summer somehow, I am in my Star Wars phase again and I'm happy I skipped The Bad Bazch, Visions and The Mandalorian, so I can enjoy them now when I genuine want to spend time in the universe. And that's what franchises sort of provide. They are a framework. This gives you a certain sense of security on what to expect, at the same time a tight framework can also spark creativity. I honestly disagree about The Mabdaloran being a rehash, but think it is actually a really cool spin on the Star Wars universe using Sergio Leone and Akira Korusawa as a clear inspiration. If this weren't set in the Star Wats universe there would be a certain tension lost between this down to earth approach, where the Jedi are these weird wizard, and the more high brow approach of Szat Wars by comparison.
I’d suggest the main benefit of a show like Andor being part of a well known franchise is that the story can be told without the necessity of explaining the universe it exists within. It’s kinda like how a historical drama often doesn’t need to explain how the relevant kings or empires rose to power, Star Wars has its own established history that stories can be told within. Andor is something of an exception though, all too often theres an over reliance on existing franchise IP that ends up sucking creativity out of the works. This is where much of my cynicism kicks in.
Interesting point, but as a starwars fan, I’d say that you can do both, the starwars prequels didn’t prevent the matrix to be made in 1999, the kenobi series did add more to the starwars universe , is not about Leia and obiwan going into an adventure but rather how obiwan struggles with his past while being in charge of taking care of the future (Luke) and ultimately becomes more close to the character we see in new hope played by Alec Guinnes , I would agree with you in the case of Solo movie, but not on obiwan there was space for an interesting story to be told , regarding Andor I think that not because you already have 4 Batman movies that the dark knight trilogy doesn’t make sense to exist , from a film maker perspective look at Dune or blade runner do you think that Denis Villeneuve would’ve been known if he would’ve done only Arrival , I don’t think he would’ve been that popular, I’m not a Star Trek guy but I believe that in the hands of a talented artist and people that understand the universe yes in the case of Starwars it still make sense
For me, the biggest contributor to franchise fatigue is how self-referential much of media gets. You touched on it talking about Lower Decks: over-reliance on familiarity with the genre or franchise to carry a work. I see this in a lot of anime as well, each new season it feels like there's a half dozen new isekai trying to distinguish themselves by being "the same derivative isekai again, but THIS one is different because they keep winking at the camera and talking about how silly these tropes are, which makes it okay when they do it."
I've often said that if Andor was just a SF show about the rise of fascism in an empire it'd be just as good, but if The Mandalorian was just a SF show about a mysterious man in armour taking care of an alien child nobody would watch it. There is some value to Andor being a Star Wars show though - we can skip a lot of exposition and keep the story personal because we can point to the broader saga as to what happened and why, and in the current media landscape it's more likely to get into production and have a higher production budget than an unknown property. Of course, that last point is the big problem - studios won't take a risk on an original property if they figure they can get a chunk of an existing property's audience to tune in for a new incarnation of an old show. It's why there's a new Battlestar Galactica on the way even though the Ron Moore one ended only 14 years ago. Netflix and other streaming services were a good vector for new SF for a while, but good luck getting invested in a new show in the hope that maybe this one will make it past series 1.
I agree that we need more original stories as much as I am a fan of Star Wars and Star Trek (and Doctor Who, another long-running franchise). I myself am actually working on a sci-fi graphic novel. At time of this comment, it's only a rough outline. Without revealing too much, it is actually a very old sci-fi trope that has fascinated me since I was little and I always wanted to write a story with that. But this trope has been done to death at this point so if I'm using it, I'm gonna have to do something new and fresh with it. Perhaps deconstructing it or something. It's challenging but that also makes it fun.
While I agree with many of the points made here, one thing sorely missing in this video is the overall fact that movies don't have to be anything more complicated than escapist fun. Now with that said, the most important point made is that for many shows in a franchise today, being in that franchise is a bigger hindrance than help, which then calls in question the entire premise of those shows existence.
Does Andor make the Empire more evil even though it blows up planets in the original film? Yes. Voldemort might be the Big Bad but Deloris Umbridge seems more evil because unlike another dark lord wizard who wants to conquer an unrealistic fantasy land, Umbridge feels real. She’s a bully who abuses her power to settle grudges. That’s a so much more relatable evil than a wizard ghost splitting up his soul and eating unicorns to be immortal. Fans know Voldemort is the main bad guy, but they HATE Umbridge. The original Star Wars trilogy shows us cartoon bad guys who blow up planets and use space magic to rule the galaxy. Andor shows us the duty-minded police officer who sided with fascism because he thinks law and order = good. It shows us the cogs in the machine just doing their job without malice but supporting the Empire none the less. It also shows us the absolute terror of risking yourself to fight for what’s right when you aren’t a plot-armored hero. Finally Andor has a recurring theme of nameless heroes sacrificing for a future they will never see. In this regard I believe the foreknowledge of Andor’s death actually strengthens the show and its themes.
