Francis Fukuyama and John Gray on Russia and the End of History

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Political scientist Francis Fukuyama and philosopher John Gray discuss why Russia didn’t become a liberal democracy after the fall of communism in 1989.
Best known for arguing that liberal democracy would mark ‘the end of History’, Francis Fukuyama has spent much of the last 30 years responding to questions about his contested prediction. In this conversation, he is joined by British political philosopher John Gray, who rejects the idea of universal liberal values and human progress.
While Fukuyama believes that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is a wake-up call for the West to rekindle the true spirit of 1989, Gray argues that the triumph of liberalism is far from inevitable.
This clip is from the Intelligence Squared event ‘Is Liberalism Obsolete?’ recorded on 22 March 2022. Watch the full conversation on demand here: www.intelligen...
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26 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 121

@kylewalker6737 2 года назад

If these are the intellectuals of liberalism today you can see why liberalism is failing they are completely off the mark

@rogcrater8193 2 года назад

John Gray is not a liberal.

@natwhocares 2 года назад

It never ceases to amaze me how speakers fail to take into account and acknowledge the collective trauma of the mass poverty and straightforward starvation in the 90's. People don't care about empires, they care about their livelihood. In USSR it was difficult to find things to buy, but there were resources to do so and staple products were always available. After there were a lot of goods, but no money to buy anything. Sometimes even basic things like bread. It is a special kind of torture to pass a market full of all sorts of things with empty pockets and an empty stomach. Time went by and things got better, people could afford better living. People got to associate that with particular figures in the government. While I don't mean to justify horrific things that are going on, it doesn't have much to do with empirialistic thinking among citizens. People are terrified of changes after what they saw and lived through. Saying things like 'troubles with economy' or blaming everything on 'cultural differences' and such is a massive understatement, it is so dismissive, it was a full fledged humanitarian catastrophy and its effects must be taken into account and discussed in discourses like that

@natwhocares 2 года назад

As for the government's side of the conflict, it's all about profit, not pride, it's about natural resources trade routes, which has been a major point of conflict for decades now, providing safety for gas and oil, not humans. Hello, old news here, Russian government doesn't care about its people, but merely sees them as kettle. Its politics has been dismissing people's opinions and interests for years and years and is all about greed of the few and to some extent it's significantly sadder than the old-fashioned blabber about empires and sense of historical justice. For goodness gracious, it's the same as during the cold war, haven't we learned a thing or two about politicians and their motives since then?

@sieteocho 2 года назад

@@natwhocares Empire matters. And in this regard it is the same as China. And even in a small way it is like the US. The people may be poor and starving, but the dictator can always say, "we have a great empire, we are still a great nation", and that will ward off somewhat the threat that the people will overthrow their leaders. In China, they can be poor - many of the urban dwellers have to work insanely hard and live in small homes. But when they are fed stories of China's greatness, that makes them loyal to the CCP. The CCP is powerful, but it is not so powerful that it can withstand 1 billion angry and revolting people. Putin will feed his people not with food, but with the idea that Russia is great, and the people will therefore be able to tolerate a little bit of starvation. And the MAGA crowd will believe that Trump is leading the US back to glory days and forget that he's from the business class which screwed them all. And something similar is also happening in Modi's India. Big and great countries are similar in this regard.

@natwhocares 2 года назад

@@sieteocho nah, please, reread my comments once more attentively, people who support the regime appeal to improvements in economy and threats that the story might repeat. You see, people *used* to starve during Yeltsin's time as a president. During Putin's time life quality improved and absolutely disfunctional economy began to work more or less. People associated it with him. Yeah, most adults are still brainwashed since the USSR and don't have a grasp on how economy and politics work in democracy. He plays on the fear and insinuates that without him, if citizens dare to shake up the regime, 90's will start over again. He might talk about greatness and such, but little do people care. Noone wants to deal with the new territories, noone wants resources to be yet again redirected, there are enough regions that need attention already, there are enough projects abandoned because of that conflict. Talking about Ukraine, propaganda is bananas, it's not about greatness per se, it's about 'saving them' from themselves, from America (which is distrusted after the 90's). Yes, it is megalomaniac in nature, but people who support and believe that madness see it as being a good neighbor and brotherly country. It is all dumb, but if one gets to know what people talk about and how they try to justify that horror real thinking makes itself known. It's fear. It has always been and will be forever one of the strongest motivators, especially when people have developed a distaste for ideology

@GolumTR 2 года назад

Literally the first words out of Fukuyama’s mouth about Russia were condemning American led shock doctrine

@sieteocho 2 года назад

@@natwhocares Well Putin has miscalculated and he's going to lead them back to the poverty that he was supposed to have led them out of. And he's going to try to save his skin by pointing to - maybe he'll get back the eastern half of Ukraine. I don't know if they'll manage to dislodge him, but as this war goes on, he's not going to be in a stronger position than he was before the war. And he might cling to some territorial gains to show that he's a hero. Of course, a lot of Russians are going to the frontline and they'll start to hate their own country like the American Vietnam War veterans did, and then Putin will have another problem on his hands. When you say that the 90s were traumatic for Russia, you have to remember that Russia losing its empire almost overnight was part of that trauma, not just the poverty.

@paulmcgrory5165 2 года назад

The life expectancy of millions of Russians declined after the collapse of socialism and the imposition of capitalism so for many Russians history and indeed life itself did end in 1989.

@cbrashsorensen 2 года назад

Life expectancy for millions of AMERICANS has fallen dramatically in the last two years. Life of any value will be over here in the US as we follow in the footsteps of Russia. This is NOT about economics though Fuk would like everyone to think so. This is really about whether or not homo sapiens can pull themselves out of the gutter of violence and immoral behavior. Not likely.

@deeptime5581 2 года назад

Life expectancy under communism was actually less that after.

@joeroganpodfantasy42 2 года назад

That's a good thing in the demographic sense , it removes a big burden to the younger generation who would have to care for the older one. I don't see that as an issue socially or politically. On a human perspective yes it's tragic but on a pragmatic way it was helpful.

@deriznohappehquite Год назад

@@cbrashsorensen American life expectancy fell because Americans are all obese and Covid-19 happened.

@kurisensei 2 года назад

Surprised Fukuyama talks to Gray, after years of his argument being mocked by him

@antondelacruz9362 2 года назад

Academics do that all the time and pretend theyre above it all.

@abhimanyukarnawat7441 2 года назад

Mocked no Intellectually destroyed yes.

@peterkratoska4524 2 года назад

@@abhimanyukarnawat7441 certainly not in this debate.

@dansonoflightning2277 3 месяца назад

Why would he not? Civil discourse is a requirement for intellectual growth

@tomjohn8733 2 года назад

Very interesting discussion..

@Obiwannabe 2 года назад

I agree most in the comment section seem to have a clear bias

@kamilziemian995 2 года назад

John Gray had great points in this short video.

@notheotherklaus Год назад

Well well, interpretation of this book with the attractive title back and forth. Fukuyama thought that the US had "won", but then it was clear that China appeared in the background and he did not see that.

@false_binary 2 года назад

Why did the wall fall? Why did Russia turn out this way? Both speakers sound more like Constructivism (ideas, beliefs, culture, and individuals) than a Liberalism or Realism based explanation.

@Μύρων-β7τ Год назад

Both thinkers are making some very good points

@elchikoadyl7410 2 года назад

No thank you ...4.99 for a chat!! There are plenty of great free conversations

@apoorvsalar9452 2 года назад

right?

@haraldwolte3745 2 года назад

@@sussanfitzgerald514 how do you get it?

@rogeralsop3479 2 года назад

Two thoughtful men - don't think I've ever seen them on the BBC though.

@solitarianihilista1454 2 года назад

Fukuyama only ever had one idea - the end of History - and it wasn't even his idea, it was Hegel's nearly 200 years earlier. Gray only really had one idea too - progress is a myth - and that was largely derived from Schopenhauer, also 200 years earlier. Both of them, Gray in particular, have made a living hacking out the same old same old over and over again for three decades now like the intellectual equivalent of a bad tribute band. Mind you, compared to Jordan Peterson they're Plato and Aristotle.

@greentoby26 Год назад

It's not their fault though. I'm sure both would be perfectly happy to work and teach in relative obscurity - it's the others that constantly seem to want to know about one particular title of a decades old essay.

@donaldwebb 10 месяцев назад

A bit simplistic. Origins of Political Order or Enlightenment's Wake, or Straw Dogs, are great books, touching on a wide variety of subjects

@mkkrupp2462 10 месяцев назад

😄🥴Lol, Jordan Peterson ! I agree. It’s a really sad reflection on the world that he has such a big fan base.

@MoiLiberty 2 года назад

Marx marked communism as the end of History. Fukujama marks liberal democratic hegemony as the end of History. ... what's the worst that can happen with failed ideology?

@r3fus32d13 2 года назад

democracy is a slave ideology. At best a transition mode before tyranny

@MoiLiberty 2 года назад

@@r3fus32d13 Democracy (Liberal Hegemony) is a god that failed. A false idol. Symphonia is the way forward.

@juleshale8847 2 года назад

@@MoiLiberty whomst?

@yulee9990 2 года назад

There are more human dimension than just have a job , liberal society. At the end of human society , ...people want meaningful life not just economic well being ..

@JamesC785 2 года назад

Security, comfort, belonging/community, choice & purpose. Would a harmonious society be sustainable ? The climate crisis could give us common purpose at least.

@thedarkking32 2 года назад

The problems of democracy are: 1- Weakening the government by making the people the decision maker and not the ruler while in reality the body is not the one who rules, but the head 2- and the most important and most dangerous is that democracy does not care about the experience and competent, but rather the choice of the majority, which leads in large proportions to the arrival of the corrupt, fanatics and incompetent to govern only because they have the majority of votes 3- Democracy is not the most important for the people but more importantly is the prosperity and the prosperity could be in undemocratic governments

@pasquinomarforio 2 года назад

I'm surprised that after Helen Lewis's total disaster interviewing Jordan Peterson for GQ, anyone is still letting her get close to a microphone to do an interview. 50 million views on that interview, and each comment was, "I can't wait not to buy her book."

@Kulis747 2 года назад

I was about to ask if this was the lady who got wrecked in that JP interview...

@cbrashsorensen 2 года назад

Well SHE was interviewing the biggest narcissist of them all - Jordan is so full of himself I can smell the stink just from his name.

@Oojjffaaa 2 года назад

the old fools led us to this......☠️☠️☠️☠️

@trip83 2 года назад

Oh God not Helen Lewis 😖

@lohkoon 2 года назад

An interesting book on a very important subject Well-written

@rezamehr9379 2 года назад

I feel Fukuyama and Gray talk Like a White House spokesman...

@freyrbjornsson6452 2 года назад

I feel like someone else apart from Fukuyama would have done a better job at explaining Fukuyama´s ´End of History´

@MR-G-Rod 2 года назад

He was wrong...way wrong.

@deriznohappehquite Год назад

@@MR-G-Rod No he wasn’t.

@KRYPTOS_K5 2 года назад

Sorry to see that Fukuyama never evolves... Brazil

@chriszzw30 2 года назад

I thought it was Bernie Eccleston. Which would just be odd, amusing though.

@dr.pramodkumar4974 Год назад

Really this book is very important for all people specially researchers.another books Denial bell-the end of ideology, oswald spengler-the decline of west, samuel h p huntington-the claisses of civilization and the remaking of the world order........pls all books translated to all languages specially hindi and publishing in market.

@keithrobert5117 2 месяца назад

FF thought he was the new Copernicus. But turned out he was just another US sub-prime Nostradamus.

@positivemindsets2225 2 года назад

Those discussions are full of bias

@evolassunglasses4673 2 года назад

People want meaning, not Netflix, Porn and mass replacement migration.

@richardcope8102 2 года назад

It is the responsibility of all sentient adults to find meaning & purpose for themselves.

@antondelacruz9362 2 года назад

I really dont know many people who care about meaning. In fact the people i know most interested in it are usually rich and aimless and live less meaningful lives than people i know who are struggling and constantly looking for opportunities. My parents have never spoken about meaning other than wanting to make sure we are safe and arent hungry. My friends defffinitely all want porn. Not me tho, im a good boy.

@gabrielazki 2 года назад

They don't want fascism though, Mr Evola. Fascism is antihuman.

@apoorvsalar9452 2 года назад

@@gabrielazki lol

@richardcope8102 2 года назад

@John Goodrest Agreed. Sadly pap & Celebrity appears to be main diet for even great news outlets like the BBC.

@TheZombieGAGA 2 года назад

0:40 nice intro : what is the end of History ?

@SirAntoniousBlock 2 года назад

Fukuyama has made a lifelong career from being fraud, why is he constantly given a platform to spuik his nonsense?

@azhivago2296 2 года назад

I have heard a few people say this now. Please can you explain in what way he is a fraud?

@antondelacruz9362 2 года назад

@@azhivago2296 its a false and hyperbolic claim. Theyre just overreacting to fukuyamas predictions in 'the end of history' not coming true. Fukuyama succintly explains here why he was wrong and it is up to the viewer to decide if hes right or wrong, but his thinking reflects that of many other public intellectuals and people with their hands on the levers of power so it cant be ignored.

@8888LR 2 года назад

This conversation is nonsense 👎👎

@SirAntoniousBlock 2 года назад

@@azhivago2296 The original premise was ridiculous and the height of arrogance and insularity. His view of history is like an opinion pollster who only polled one person.

@vikta3 2 года назад

the good thing is that Fukuyama is being questioned more and more often. eventually he won't have much value in the conversation regarding end of history, in alot of way's its become a milestone round his kneck.

@richardcope8102 2 года назад

Universal Basic Income allied with full Automation *could* deliver a better Society with more leisure and less soul-destroying work. The Philosopher Bertrand Russell queried the meme of high morality adhering to work and was a strong advocate of people working less.

@antondelacruz9362 2 года назад

Has it been shown thru research that people who work less engage in more meaningful pursuits? Because personally when i dont have work i feel dead. When i have lots of work i like to fill up my free time with hobbies.

@Madonnalitta1 2 года назад

It's great in theory but just like socialism, it can never work because humans are not altruistic. There will always be those who want to steal, cheat, be gluttonous, lazy, ect. There will always be those who want power and wealth before others.

@deriznohappehquite Год назад

@@antondelacruz9362 Exactly, it’s all cope from lazy bums who want to smoke weed and play video games all the time. The AI uprising and extermination of humanity can’t come soon enough.

@deelight3469 Год назад

"Successfully" misunderstood for 30 years. Congratulations!!

@helokitty991 2 года назад

There is an end of history, end of human history comjng

@anonymousturtle8562 2 года назад

This is awful... worse even than his reputation for ending history and life as a neocon (if that's possible.)

@baruasafi5880 2 года назад

Real history is one that people subscribe to divine injunctions. Without that, history as looked at in the secular lenses is shallow. That's the school of Fukuyama.

@StrongbyLee 2 года назад

Francis Fukuyama is still relevant? If my life's work got thoroughly dismantled and disproven, I'd probably try to find another line of work. Good thing I don't have illusions of grandeur.

@MR-G-Rod 2 года назад

Fukuyama is a defunct intellectual.

@deprogramr 2 года назад

pay wall is dumb.

@gdaqian Год назад

two academics discuss ideas

@clockworkcrew8012 2 года назад

What neoliberal fascist dribble.

@antondelacruz9362 2 года назад

Francis fukuyama and... old 10th doctor?

@workingproleinc.676 2 года назад

2:31 This is where i stop lisin to this clown

@antondelacruz9362 2 года назад

But whats wrong about his explanation of his own 30 year old work?

@RobBCactive 2 года назад

Me to!!

@MoiLiberty 2 года назад

Marx marked communism as the end of History. Fukujama marks liberal democratic hegemony as the end of History. ... what's the worst that can happen with failed ideology?

@RobBCactive 2 года назад

No, I remember him peddling his clickbait titled book when it came out then. What he said then was obvious bunk, now he's rewriting his own bunk He talked nonsense about history being a clash of ideologies ie Capitalism vs Communism