Today we take a brief look at the design history of the French pre-dreadnoughts. Want to support the channel? - / drachinifel Want to talk about ships? / discord Music - / ncmepicmusic
In the designers' defence, they did make them offensive, only they went with the wrong kind of offensive, designing them in such a way to cause anyone who even looks at them to be offended by their design. (Edit: some of yers don't seem to realise that yes, I do know what the joke is about, and no, this is not an attempt to explain it, stop replying to an old comment)
The first British pre Dreadnoughts looked like beautiful steam liners with a few guns. The first French ones looked like the boiler room of my old school.
Admiral: The mere sight of the new battleship should strike terror into our enemy's heart. Naval architect: (taking notes and murmuring to himself:) Ship... must have... terrible appearance... Admiral: Her pugnacious appearance should repulse the enemy. Naval architect: (taking more notes) Repugnant appearance.(scribbles) Ah yes, Admiral! She shall be repulsive indeed! Admiral: After all, our goal is to repel the enemy. Naval architect: _Oh yes_ Monsieur, she will be _most repellent_ . I shall see to it! Admiral: The enemy should feel overmatched just beholding her! Just imagine, they shall feel sick in their hearts when they consider engaging her in battle! Naval architect: (taking notes and talking to himself) Spectators... should be overwhelmed with ... nausea... and ... (scribbling) despair in their hearts. Admiral: She should be so awesome that the enemy sailors would just as soon mutiny than engage her battle. Naval architect: I understand, Admiral! (scribbling and murmuring to himself:) Revolting appearance. Naval architect: Anything else, sir? Admiral: Of course she must have big guns and be capable of carrying out offensive maneuvers against an opposing fleet. Naval architect: (putting his notebook in his pocket) Oh yes, she shall be _most offensive_ . Believe me, Admiral. She shall be made to clash in every way you can imagine.
@@jamesricker3997 To be fair the Yamato was far more fuel efficient ton for ton than any other BB class on the planet due to her Bulbous bow. Its not like they had enough fuel to be cruising around in Nagato and Fuso's either. Then there were those pesky Yankee subs and CV task forces just itching for a chance at the big target.
My sense of aesthetic may be offended but my imagination absolutely LOVES these ships. Many of them look like citadels or shanty towns. Extremely cool in a steam punk way.
You are right and i share your point of view. Beeing a steampunk "engineer" building a lot of thechnical steampunk equipment, i came to the conclusion that the real steam world of our grandgrandfathers had been more exiting than any steampunk fictional story.
It's why there were so many marital affairs in power circles back then. "How many guns?" "Yes" "Ehh what caliber sir?" "Yes" "Ehh can I plough your wife sir" "Yes"
This is after all the ultimate proof that concept of the diversity and equal opportunity is in absolutely no doubt absolutely superior to everything else and France became the world superpower for ever since thanks to its adaptation so early on.
French Government: *holds a competition to choose ONE company to build battleships* French Government: Why are we having this competition again? *promptly gives contracts to every company that applies*
This is exactly what the French did. For these battleships and, between the 2 world wars, for tanks and planes. A lot of manufacturers. A lot of lobbying. A lot of politicians. But now, we don't have any money. So. We have to think before what we can do the best, or the better for everything. This is funny and ironical. Because French have the reputation to "optimize". Not to "maximize". The cartesian spirit as a cultural "trait de caractère". Not here...
You have to give the French credit though. They got 5 different lessons without building 5 classes. By making 5 seperate ships, they experimented with all the things they wanted to learn, and learned all the lessons at once.
@@WingMaster562 actually the French invented a whole bunch of revolutionary war tech. Then the uk copied and would make double what France had a year or 2 later.
@@wom_Bat I would've believed it if weren't for "ackwutually". Nah im messing with ya. But yeah, this reminds me of all the threads, comment section, forums and other debates about the idea of how UK pioneered the tank yet everyone copied the French because turrets, or how UK didn't copy the fFrench with the turret as "the British had their designs already in mind long before the French". All the crapstorms.
The Massena(?) 17:05 is *the* butt ugliest ship I have *ever* seen. To paraphrase Jeremy Clarkson, "It's not only the ugliest ship I've ever seen, but quite possibly the ugliest *thing* I've ever seen."
"what a battleship should like like in a Looney Toons cartoon sort of way." That mentality may be why French film historians love Golden Age Hollywood cartoons!
Clearly you missed the pic of Yamato guns on a DD. It's make from a edited world of warships screen cap. The gun barrels are half as long as the dd on either side.
@@marseldagistani2251 Yamato called hotel because she never leave base because she expensive to operate, while French pre-Dreadnought is literally a hotel
Just a little note: while "Démocratie" is written with a "T", the "T" is pronounced like a "C". Don’t ask me why we write it with a "t" instead of a "c" I don’t know. Probably a vestige from Latin if I had to take a guess.
Mais Anglais aussi. -- tion (t pronounced as sh), and gh (pronounced as f) and c (pronounced as S) etc. Our excuse is that these words came from francais. In latin t , g and c are all pronounced hard. As in tank, goat and car.
Pre-dreadnought ship designer: So, Admiral, what gun caliber do you want on the ship? Admiral: I want *_all the calibers_* !! Pre-dreadnought ship designer: But... Admiral: *_All the calibers_* !!!!!!
Dreadnought era *ADMIRAL: I STILL WANT ALL CALIBRES AND SPEED! LOTS OF SPEED!!* Designer: Yeah but the budget wont allow that speed. *ADMIRAL: I SAID I WANT THEM ALL NOW GIVE THEM ALL* Designer: Sir aswell as the budget we signed this deal that meams half your purposed calibres arent allowed to be built anymore. *ADMIRAL: I WANT IT DONE NOW* Designer: Okey, *(starts franctically redoing the design against the admirals wishes fully)*
@@aliasunknown7476There was the scene when warship appeared and it looked literally like a one of the ships shown in this video. I thought it was just a fantasy ship but turns out it was inspired by a real one)
A video on pre-dreadnought power, electrical, water supply and other systems would be quite interesting. While locomotives are covered in detail there is far less material for contemporary iron ships.
Considering the unseaworthiness of the previous ships, the fact that their designers would build a ship of that size and end up a foot deeper draft than designed once built, I'm thinking a “fleet of samples” was probably the wisest choice they could have made!
Baltic fishing fleet ' nice catch today ' 2nd Pacific squadron ' Japanese torpedo boats !! ' German merchant ships ' bad fog today' 2nd Pacific squadron ' Japanese torpedo boats!! ' British fishing boats ' bloody sounded like gunfire' 2nd Pacific squadron ' Japanese torpedo boats!! ' Marine National ' keep your eyes open, we have heard an jumpy Russian fleet is at sea.' 2nd Pacific squadron ' yes we would like to book rooms for several nights. '
These ships look like something out of a science fiction pulp magazine, zooming off to the planet Zog to rescue a hostage space princess...weird but somehow wonderful
I suppose the advantage to the Patchwork Fleet would be that each type of ship would have different weaknesses for opponents to figure out and exploit. Looking on the bright side here.
Practicality aside, French Pre-Dreadnought were arguably the most gracefully designed warships ever, and this tradition was more or less inherited by their successors such as Richelieu class battleship.
Drachisms of the Day: 12:07 "Charles Martel takes the cake, the biscuit and quite probably the container as well." 16:29 "And now we move on from the least-pronounceable to the most visually-offensive." 37:38 "Fully capable of having electrically-powered turret, training and elevation mechanisms without putting on something of a lightning-show for everybody in the vicinity." 40:42 "Which rather put them in the status of 'obsolete on launch', unfortunately." 46:51 "And, to be honest, in some cases, horrific to look at."
In the olden days, you could get a discount if you bought broken biscuits. Some of these French vessels are in that league; still technically biscuits, but..
Considering how near France was located to England there designs for predreadnought Battleships are worlds apart. Fortunately for France they weren't as dependent on their navy as the British traditionally were or history would have been extremely unkind to France in times of war. Though odd and obviously extremely experimental France's bizarre designs during the Pre-Dreadnought Era were certainly worth an extensive examination and I have thoroughly appreciated this video about them alongside the different styles that evolved from the Royal Navy.
@@luisgalic6581 HIGHLY doubt you could cram the 40,000 hp of a dreadnought battleship into a speed boat in the next 10 years and make it last more than a day. Not happening.
@@jonnyj. idk man, look how far we got in the last 10 years. Also, development is exponential so look at the last 20 years and tell me it’s not possible
@@Sturminfantrist There was logic behind the french tanks, maybe not good logic, but there was a reasons they were what they were (mostly that the government did not trust the army and massive manpower shortages thanks to WW1). The only reason I see for these ships to be so bad is incompetence.
Me: Im pretty knowledgeable in Naval history. Drachinifel : Oh Really, Hold my Beer! Between these French Hotels and The Russian Circular ships I am quite humbled by my actual lack of Naval Warship history. Another Excellent tutorial my Friend and Thanks.
Ric Dale - Your statement is hardly accurate! I don't see Drach needing to set his beer down to set anyone straight in naval history, except maybe Craig Symonds, and a very few, very select, set of others.
The French built their tanks the same way in the 1930's. Different designs, different requirements awarded to different manufacturers. Must be a French thing.
The French in 1940 had far MORE tanks that were on average MUCH better gunned and MUCH better armoured tanks than the Germans did. They had little impact on German strategy and tactics because the French had no idea how to use tanks as well as the French Army being fairly ambivalent about whose side they wanted to be on in the first place.
It is based on the good old policy of "no vendor left behind!" - it would be unfair to the others if one of them would win the competition. Not really sportsmanlike, you know?
@@screamingnutbag7955 And they were horribly out of position. The worst of it was that the Germans invaded THREE times through the Ardennes in exactly the same way, and only when the US Army was there to receive the brunt of it, it ended in tears. The other two times, despite being warned about the upcoming mess by the British, they said "nah, the German army will never take that risk". That left the tanks completely out of position and thus irrelevant, while 5 tanks in the correct position could have stopped the entire invasion from being a Blitzkrieg and turning it into a slugfest on the Maginot line. You can have all the tanks you want, of the best quality. But surprise can negate it all.
@@screamingnutbag7955 they had about 2 tank designs that fittingly where better, Both of these where due to the french acting logically on the matter for once, the tanks in questions being the Char B1 and the Somua S35 both of these however where plauged by rather poor command choices such as the one man turret for the S35 and The Rather lackluster main armament of the Char B1
Great video. If the Queen Regent of Spain had successfully enlisted France and/or Britain in Spain’s fight with the USA in 1898.....these are some of the ships that might have gone up against American pre-dreads like the Oregon, Iowa, New York, Indiana, and Massachusetts, in the Atlantic or Caribbean. It’s an interesting alternative history to ponder...
I think that's actually a true statement--making a steel and iron ship with a tumble-home hull is not the brightest thing in the world; but it worked for wooden ships of the line. Helped them be less top heavy with batteries of guns arranged on the sides, and made boarding a great deal more difficult. What's odd to me is that it is still popular; in yacht design as well as warships. Some things never change.
Loved the inclusion on the "Brennus" trivia, I'm a big Roman history buff, so it made me smile a bit when you started talking about it. Great video, your content is much appreciated, good sir.
There were a couple of French pre-dreadnoughts that had a design-profile I loved. Of course these ships (Bouvet, Messina) were not the normal conventional combat vessels of the day. A rounded tumble hull, prone to capsizing if counter-flooding measures not taken quickly upon hitting a mine, shell hit, or torpedo. But the steampunk designed pre-dreadnought looked like it was out of a Harry Potter novel. Different single barrel turret big guns and a secondary battery of varying calibers. Some called them odd-looking, very odd looking, but to me it's lines were an imagination made true by French engineering. The Bouvet was sunk in the British-French joint effort to lay waste to Turkish Forts on the steep hills that lined the coast of Turkey. Bouvet hit a mine and capsized within a nano-minute, taking the entire crew down with it. Thanks for this excellent commentary with photos on French pre-dreadnoughts and battleships.
These French battleships where you can literally hear Drac roll his eyes over the dialogue made me think of the Zumwalt-class destroyers. They are not only visually, shall we say distinctive, but given that the engines don't work, the radar doesn't work with the rest of the fleet, and the advanced railguns aren't even being trained with because the rounds cost a million dollars each. Well they would fit right in, wouldn't they?
When you look at the Zumwalts and then look at the CSS Virginia..... 'course when you burn a hull to the waterline and then rebuild it, it leaves one an awful lot to be re-imagined.
@Angel Apolinar I'm pretty sure the point is to make it indistinguishable from a fishing boat, to make identifying it as a target as difficult as possible. If someone told you the fishing boat sized return on radar was the Zumwalt, you could target it of course, but you'll have no way of knowing through radar alone.
Zumwalt doesn't have a railgun, the whole railgun project in USN is currently on hold as the Navy is reconsidering whether it's worth continuing the project or not. The gun on Zumwalt is a more modern version but otherwise not that different to an enlarged naval automatic 127mm gun in a larger scale of 155mm. To date... no navy have a fully functional and operational railgun, several navy (USN included) have functional prototypes but none are in service.
@@jordanwong7902 yes, well actually the main benefit for the navy is that the ammo doesn't need to carry explosives at all (it can, but it doesn't need to) which is one of the holy grail for warships because detonation of ammunition is one of the deadliest threat to a warship, so not having ammunition that can go BOOM is MUCH safer for the warship. But Zumwalt doesn't carry a railgun anyhow so this doesn't help the ship either way. It instead carries a more advanced but otherwise normal gunpowder based autoloading 155mm gun... Which has NO AMMO because the ammo intended for it was so expensive that the navy refused it.... and it can't use regular 155mm shell, so it's stuck with no ammunition.
@@khaccanhle1930 oh right well I didn't know that, the only thing I'd add is I'm so sure that the Jedi clothes are based off Monks like both Buddhist and Christian attire mixed together, not samurai.
Incredibly expensive floating toilets with "standing only" sleeping arrangements. But I'm sure the meals were fantastic. France was in the grips of a drunken hysteria.
@@AvengerII But the "E" was more like a warship. The Galaxy class (Enterprise D) was meant for deep space exploration and colonization more than combat, that´s why it had a lot of civilian facilities on board that would be useless on a warship.
We need to remember that the difficulty of spotting shell splashes from different calibre guns was not one that would have occurred to the designers, since before Tsushima it was envisaged that any battles would be fought at quite close ranges.
Outstanding video, I can’t think of another RU-vid Channel dedicated to naval ships of the world that could’ve done better service to such a specific subject, and at the same time keeping it dynamic, interesting, and well worth the view no matter how many books one may additionally read on the same subject. Keep up the good work.
16:38 I don't know why but I love the look of that ship. Maybe because it looks like a steampunk version of the Victory with all those porthole/gunports running along the side. It's a shame they had to drag their flag through the water behind it though.
Well...France still has a thriving ship building industry, they can still build ocean liners and did so for the British (QM2). while back in Britain our most famous yards are now housing estates or tourist attractions.
@@HauntedXXXPancake We would like to subsidize our shipyards. Unfortunately, the European Commission refuses to do so with fierce obstinacy. But hey, unlike the English we are not yet submitted (not completely) to the wishes of Uncle Sam.
"Haw haw, it will be a pleasure fighting against them!" "Sir, the Entente has just been signed. We will now be fighting *with* them." "Oh bloody hell."
I never wanted to be a pre-dreadnought anyway. I always wanted to be a... lumberjack!.... Swinging from tree to tree.... singing,.. singing.... singing........
These ships are really neat, each one unique. Usually one warship of a certain time looks much like another, even across different countries but here there is so much creativity.
I thought prisons rather then hotels. Hotels at this time tended to be a bit more ornate whereas prisons were more functional. And remembering that some warship hulks ended up as prison ships maybe they were built with that future in mind. The Marceau was named after the great French naval hero Marcel Marceau and had the reputation of being the quietest ship to go to sea. Unfortunately she was lost at sea with all hands when it turned out they were actually drowning and not just waving. Having said that she did get a standing ovation from the rest of the fleet. The Gauloises is the only example of a French Navy ship being sponsored by a tobacco company. Looking at the early ships it was like they were being designed by a committee, or several committees, who had heard a warship described to them but never actually seen one. Then when they finally get the hang of it up pops the Dreadnought. Not a case of better late then never.
@@dbodesign6494 we could also include those who's interference with the French Army before and during the Battle of France which gave victory to the Germans in WW2. I have a feeling you you would need a very large fleet of them.
How considerate of the French to build their ships to be convertible to prison ships. That way, when the French surrendered, the enemy wouldn't have to find someplace to house them.
I do enjoy a tin of butter biscuits. When I was a child, I'd see the tin and would get quite excited only to be disappointed when it turned out the tin was full of my grandmother's sewing supplies. Now as an adult I can get as many biscuits as I please, nary a sewing needle in sight.
That's my favorite era. The steam era and art Nouveau style and whatever you call that style during the Charles Martel years. I suppose it's the guilded age. I need to look it up.
The French Military in a nutshell: 19th Cent: I want something to bludgeon the English, but without spending much francs. Be... creative." 20th Cent: I want something to bludgeon the Germans, but without spending much francs. Be... creative."
A conversation between a french and an english sailor: English sailor: "You french, are fighting for money. We fight for honor" French sailor: "we all fight for something we have not." ;) But you have to understand that France always had to make a difficult choice between land army and naval army. Despite of that, WWII navy was very good. Not a lot of ships, but good ships.
@mandellorian You seems to talk about quadruple turrets. There were a problem with quadruple turrets in Strasbourg and in Dunkerque. (330mm) But I think it has been fixed for the Richelieu and Jean Bart. (380mm) Richelieu wasn't the best ship of French navy. Emile Bertin, for example, was the fastest cruiser in the world. (more than 40kts). Some destroyers were really good too.
Considering your expertise on French pre dreadnoughts, could you tell me if the Marceau class was mime resistant? Sorry couldn't resist! Vive la France!
@@gunner678 Unfortunately I focused more on the French doctrine rather than the ship design, but I can look into it and try to get you an answer later on!
@@gunner678 no ship at that time was mine resistant in the definition of it. None of the pre-dreads where practically well defended against mines. Id go so far to claim that a mine is likely far more dangerous towards these pre dreads then any other similair ship due to how the hull is designed
France had been ideologically fractured which had allowed for a very unhealthy political climate to take hold, in turn favouring more than average cronyism and pork-barreling. A fragmented industrial base compounded the problem as far as armament was concerned. It was to last till after WWII, at the least… These documentaries are of great interest not only for their obvious merits in terms of naval history but also for their insight into the wider picture of those and our times.
Ship Designer : I have a completed blueprint French Admiral : Hmm now wheres the ballroom? Ship Designer : Ballroom? French Admiral : Yes and move the forward gun to the stern and the stern gun to the port side Ship Designer : Uh French Admiral : OH and put a massive hotel on the top Ship Designer : And uh gun calibur? French Admiral : oui Ship Designer : uh admiral? French Admiral : Oui all caliburs....and a place for a life sized replica eifel tower
Thinking that capitol ships are obsolete? Geez, the French really were ahead of their time. First ironclads, first smokeless powder small arms. Vive le France!
I’m not a big Francophile...but the ‘tumble home’ design aesthetic they built-in to their ships was PIMP !!! That look !! If I was a Billionaire I thing I’d have to build my mega yacht like one of those.
Amazing period, although the early French pre-dreadnoughts, should we maybe call them pre-pre-dreadnoughts; they are certainly in a league of their own, as handsome to behold as a shard of glass stabbing your eyes, but very organic. It is almost like there are no naval designer responsible, they just invited a lot of people to build what ever they liked on the poor hulls in "anything goes" fashion, very much like a medieval settlement were anyone can just erect whatever building they like to follow the shape of the terrain. But looking at them later like the Patri class is quite striking and and if not elegant have an air of meaning business, I quite like them.
@@unfurling3129 each to his own, I'm happy the old man'o'war gets some love, old sailors like me have an eye for long sweeping lines and a mindset hard to change.
_"Hotels going to war"_ makes for good click-bait, but with these ships having crews of 650, _"Tenements going to war"_ would be more socio-archtecturally accurate.
@@iMajoraGaming and using a term like _naval tenements_ would've made recruiting a lot harder, too. … for the Navy, I mean. Might've helped Foreign Legion recruiting efforts.
Don't forget today's American Nimitz-class aircraft carriers have crews (including air wings) numbering over 6000. "When entire towns go floating to war"
Some of the ships are the most stylized ships I've ever seen. They are dead sexy. If they can't win a battle they might survive because enemy's would hate to blow up such an artistic structure.
This is still one of my absolute all-time best hit-parade top-pops in the Drach-in-nififfi-ifel archives. When I'm feeling a tad under the weather, man-flu not .... the ... dreaded .. flilergy (with the twinging screws and all that corvid tempy-bumpus-uppus), I'll always try to dig this one out .. and immediately set to larffing myself sick. The perfect cure for what ails you. Cheers! old bean, and thank you. ;o)
When I was a kid I went to the naval museum in Toulon where they have fantastic contemporary models of all these ships. I was really impressed by the cartoonish quality of the battleships of this period. Guns sticking out in all directions. Lots of shiny brass work etc.
The Denton Class was especially impressive but by the time of their construction numerous Dreadnought designs were already in service by the English, U.S. and German navies. Equally important, these advanced pre-Dreadnought or Semi-Dreadnought designs lacked adequate stability in the event of significant battle damage especially under water damage by mines and torpedoes.
The pre-dread period was always of interest to me. I mean after the RN starts with basically a standard type you have everybody else's very different ships.
Drach, you must have bust your pick on this one and the work is genuinely appreciated. I never knew French predreds were so varied and in many cases so weird. The designers clearly had a hard time giving up the tumble home from age of sail when the French designed and built excellent frigates and ships of the battle line. The British navy loved captured French ships. How their designers fell from their age of sail pinnacle to the age of iron.
A very good video, DO NOT miss this video if you are interested in older war ships, here are gold beads for those who are tired of hearing that the Zumwalt ships have "a whole new type of bow".
