It actually makes a lot of sense to use a shorter sanding beam, and also to sand along the fret length instead of perpendicular to it to keep the radius intact. unless you were using a radiused sanding block of course then you could theoretically go both ways. I think besides taking off less material than you would with a longer sanding beam, you're also less likely to take off too much fret on either end if for any reason your neck was bowed when you started sanding.
@@canepaper967 yes sanding along the fret is important another reason being the string only ever moves side to side so all polishing should be done in the same direction.
I don't use notched straight edges anymore. I just use a regular straight edge and adjust the truss rod so the tops of the frets (IE: the "fret plane") is as flat as possible. Then I level if needed. You want the "fret plane" to be flat, you don't really care about the fingerboard.
Yea. After I’ve made sure my board is flat before fretting I never really check flatness again. With a single action truss rod there better not be much if any back bow after fretting. You can still level frets this way though even with a little back bow. Upbow would be worse. I get the theory behind notched straight edges. But they aren’t very practical or in my opinion at all necessary.
I now use a fret leveling file instead of a fret beveling file. It lets you put less of a bevel on the fret ends. This leaves a bit more material for intonation surface on the top, and more material for rounding fret ends without taking too much off the ends of the top.
This video makes way more sense to me, thank you. I’m not a guitar builder, tho the idea appeals to me. I was in my younger days a piano technician, my father was a piano builder. I’m a retired Merchant Mariner now, that has ten guitars and I’ve been teaching myself the maintenance and repair of my instruments and so I spend a fair amount of time on YT learning some techniques. Now that I’ve subscribed I’ll be back to check out more. Cheers
Fret leveling is so imprecise. I mean, the fretboard can not only go from wide to narrow in cone shape but they can have a different radius going up the fretboard! How can you possible level the frets perfectly with that situation? It's impossible to do a perfect job. It's a lot more art than science!
Relief increases action - which "theoretically" makes intonation worse. I say "theoretically" because like so many things in guitars, there's what's theoretically correct - and then there's what you can actually detect. The amount of relief required is a function of scale length, string gauge, saddle height, nut slot height, and tuning (std vs drop). I run 1.4mm action at the 24th with zero relief on a fender scale length (25.5" / 648mm) at standard tuning with Ernie Ball 8's on all my 24 fret, 25.5" scale length builds. And I set intonation at the 24th, not the 12th. Shorter scale length, bigger strings, and drop tunings will all require more room for the string to flop around without buzzing on any frets. Relief can give you this wiggle room, at the cost of slightly worse action at some frets.
i have carbon rods, double truss rod on my 5 string Spector. I set low tension flats 2mm at 24 fret and 2mm on 12 fret. Higher tension flats are lower 1mm at 24 and 12 fret. I found carbon rods make bow of the neck even on B and G string. Bass without carbon rods had more bow on E and A string than on D and G string.
Unless there is a backbow in the neck the double action of the truss rod isn’t doing anything at all you see. As you only need to tighten the rod. And worse case scenario. The rod is actually loose and tightening adds too much back bow and a loose rod is really bad news.
@@JonLettsGuitars Some necks won't pull relief. And struggle to even get flat. Double action helps in those cases. But yes. In a perfect neck it does nothing. But many masks aren't perfect, particular after some years
You make a valid point about the rigidity of the neck being reduced towards the nut, where the neck is narrower, and usually slightly shallower than the depth near the body. In theory, the neck should bend forward more near the nut, due to the smaller cross-section of the wood. If you are using a single-action truss rod (which means removing less of the neck wood, than when using a double-action rod) how do you calculate where the deepest part of the curved-bottomed truss rod channel should be located?
I just go for as much curve as possible. The rod is deeper at the headstock end and shallow at the heel. Hard to explain without drawings. I’ll try to explain it better in the next video. There’s no pressure on the back of the neck at all so as long as the channel doesn’t come out the back of the neck you can make it as curved as possible. The more curve the better the function.
Thanks for useful video. You have cleared some of my doubts. Have you ever thought about using hide glue istead of PVA? It has much less water in. (I make 18th century piano replicas, I use it every day.)
Skipped the last 5 minutes as I nearly fell asleep. Interesting idea, though fret spacing should take into account the varying string height from nut to last fret to optimise intonation. About 20 minutes in I was screaming "get to the point!"
Glad you got that off your chest. Now you can move on and be an asshole about something else. Go criticize some cute kitten videos, that would be more your speed 😅.
I understand that there should be neck relief when the guitar is strung under tension for playing. But we are discussing fret levelling here. Shouldn’t the frets be levelled - and all at the same height - with the truss rod set so that the fretboard is completely flat?
No. The neck should be flat when at rest but the frets still do not need to be levelled all at the same time. You just have to eliminate high and low frets. Levelling the whole board at once is totally unnecessary. It seems to be a modern idea that came from I don’t know where.
@@JonLettsGuitars it is probably the best place to start from, assuming there is nothing weird going on with your neck. If all the frets are level when the neck is flat, and that should not take long if you use the long sanding beam, then there should be no buzz when under tension with the appropriate relief. In the simplest cases it’s the most foolproof way to get there. Unfortunately if your neck is made of soft wood that has exhausted the truss rod and/or is full of humps, It can result in you destroying your frets
@@X-boomer I mean whatever you think is best. There is absolutely no need to level the entire fretboard at once. If the neck is bad the neck is bad. You couldnt practically level the frets under those simulated conditions anyway without a lot of extra jigs and/or machinery. Based on the assumption that you are starting with a well made neck this method of levelling is the most sensible and traditionally the best practice. The problem with levelling the entire board is making sure the neck is completely flat with no movement at all when pressing down on the frets etc. Which is very difficult if the neck is glued in or neck through etc. Levelling beams are really only for levelling fingerboards. Not frets, although they are marketed as such. Each to their own. This is the best and simplest way though.
@@JonLettsGuitarsI believe some prefer the long beams as it's easier for them to get a consistent levelling. Using a short file or short beam, I've taken more off in some areas of the neck than others. It's still worked ok, but I ended up with a less consistent action, relief nonwithstanding, even if I didn't seem to perceive more fret buzz.
I agree its not rocket science. I do start out with a straight neck though. Then a straight edge just to see what things look like. If there is a major problem with one of the frets, I've seen this, its easy to spot. A thousandth or two off on a few checking all frets wont make a difference, once you set your relief. You dont need to grind away on all of them with just one or two of them are off a bit. I do agree you dont need a long fret board tool to level all the frets. Dont over think and over complicate things.
Also. When polishing frets . Why not make a former stick , same shape as your recrownig file , around which the papers are wrapped. Garanteed better faster result. I would suggest trying a three corner saw sharpening file with the edges polished smooth as a crowning tool . Hollow edge files are painful.
One other point, there some tiny frets on that guitar, I wonder how you would go with jumbo stainless, basically and depending on the guitar, spot leveling can take longer than just leveling them all in one go, you even said yourself that if you get buzzing then go back to spot leveling, you could end up going back and forth with spot leveling for a long time, then you have strings to deal with to find the buzzing, Ill stick to what i know works, but hey if that works for you 👍🏼
The type and size of fret is irrelevant. I only use steel frets. This way is the best way to maintain a consistent fret height. Levelling all the frets in one go disregards the fretboard entirely and you could theoretically end up with frets at one end being considerably higher or lower than the opposite end.
I believe the type and the size totally matter, stainless is much tougher to level and particularly crown without damaging the centre level line, obviously we disagree on this process and that’s okay, it didn’t stop me from listening to your perspective and if this process works for you then that’s good, I applaud your character and the fact that you haven’t replied to the comments voicing different opinions with anger. Cheers
@@LeeWhalan-bi8kc yea. Thanks for your comments. The process is the same though for any fret type. Just takes a little more time with harder material I guess. I’ve only ever really used steel and evo gold. Nickel a handful of times but it doesn’t hammer well so I never bother with it, not having a press or anything.
Jon . Depressing a string will increase the tension and raise the pitch of a string but that is the smaller of the causes for the need of bridge compensation. The major cause is the string bending stiffness. Because of that stiffness the string will not vibrate on its entire stopped length but a little shorter. The shortening remains the same no matter which fret is played. So when a string is made shorter by fretting the stiffness shortening becomes a greater proportion of its length and it sounds sharp. Extra length is added to the bridge to counter this phenomenon. Having doubts about what I've said ? Well consider these two examples. Ever wonder why there is always a step in the compensation between the last monofilament string and the first overwound string ? It is because the plain strings are inherently stiff and the wound ones more flexible . Which is why they are wound. Ever seen piano end strings ? Where the windings are removed on the section over the bridge. Notice how much less compensation this type of string needs . Because there is less stiffness at the termination. You're welcome.
@peterstephen1562 The reason why there is a step back in compensation from the last plain string to the first wound string is that only the cores bear tension in a wound string. And the first wound string has a smaller diameter core than the last plain string. Thus the last plain string sharpens more when fretted (due to greater concomitant longitudinal stiffness), and needs more saddle compensation. Bending stiffness is not a major contributor to the sharpening that is compensated for with saddle adjustment - that is mostly due to string string stretch with fretting. Bending stiffness does contribute to inharmonicity of upper partials (but not open string fundamentals). It becomes more of an issue in the stiffer strings that pianos have, to cover their much wider pitch range.
What about volume leveling? This video is a quarter of the volume of the one I came from. Please don't think I'm trying to make you feel bad, I'm trying to help give observations to make your product even better.
Whoa, 25 frets in that beast. This is interesting because I have a brand-new acoustic guitar and the frets appear to have been leveled while the guitar neck was adjusted with too much relief in it. It makes more sense to level the frets first with the neck perfectly flat. I was shocked when I adjusted my neck to be more on the flat side and then every fret was rocking while using a fret rocker tool. Strangely the guitar plays well down in the lower frets and only has problems on the D and A strings more in the middle of the neck. I cannot get the neck to go flat with any amount of truss rod adjustment when the strings are under normal tension. I can get it flat when there is no string tension. Very frustrating. I understand that the neck needs to have relief, but shouldn't it be a very small amount? You also didn't mention anything about fallaway on the 12th through higher frets and claim that it should be level without explaining anything. Why would you want that area flat and level and not fall away from level? I'm trying to decide if I should send the guitar back or do fret work on it. I like the way the guitar sounds, so I hate to send it back, but I wasn't planning on doing this much work to a brand-new guitar.
Fall away isn’t absolutely necessary. Really the neck should be as flat as possible after levelling the fingerboard itself and during fretwork. There should be relief in the fret surface along with the neck. ie; the fret tops should be level with the fingerboard. I know some people do put necks in a jig to simulate string tension before fret levelling to achieve a flatter surface under tension but this imo is not how guitars work. There should always be relief up to the 12th fret. I think the fall away stems from classical guitars with little string tension and no truss rod etc. Fret heights shouldn’t be compensated for the neck relief if you get my meaning. They should be levelled while the neck is flat.
@@JonLettsGuitars Well at least we agree on the fact that the neck should be level when creating the level fret plane. I don't think it hurts to have a bit of fall away but I can see it working with level distance from 12 to highest fret. I'm still in search of a decent acoustic guitar, the search is driving me crazy.
@@JonLettsGuitars Maybe instead of making videos about a subject that is already well covered by masters..........you could spend this time working on repaying those customers. Disliked and reported.
@@benburnett8109 thanks for your advice Ben. I do have a lot of satisfied customers and a totally open social media profile and all the usual messaging services and any actual customers are free to get in touch.
The issue is wavy boards.. ski jumps on bolt ons.. slight twists(or significant).. Etc.. The idea is the get it flat. Then INTRODUCE the relief. When spot leveling, you may catch high frets from the next frets. But you replicate the twist and waviness it twist right back into the frets. Which isn't helpful
Yes the neck has to be flat. Twist isn’t a problem actually. I would highly recommend levelling the neck of a bolt on while it’s bolted on. Especially single cuts etc. You shouldn’t have to level frets to compensate for your neck. The neck needs to be right in the first place. A good reason to leave levelling/radius until the neck is completely finished, something many builders ignore. I see people fretting necks that haven’t even been carved yet which shows total lack of understanding of the materials.
@@JonLettsGuitars completely silly. "you shouldn't have to level fret to compensate for the neck"... 😂 😂 Fret leveling is to create a uniform linear surface for the string to interact.. that's it. Fret leveling is LITERALLY meant to ignore the board... And address the FRETS alone. Twist doesn't matter? 🤣 🤣 Catch a clue please.
@@emilymiller1853 no that’s not true at all. Frets should all be the same height obviously. Relatively speaking. The distance between the top of each fret and the board should be the same. Look at a classical guitar with gut frets that require no levelling whatsoever. You do not understand how a guitar works my good friend.
@@emilymiller1853 basically. A fretted guitar is a fretless guitar, with frets in it for intonation purposes only. Frets at not to make the fretboard more flat. That’s just silly and seems to come from a mind that is not fully educated.
@@JonLettsGuitars "to make the fretboard more flat" 🤣 🤣 you.. really need to read better. The string doesn't interface with the FRETBOARD. Only the frets. Use your brain 🧠 Nobody said frets make the fretboard more flat. You made that up. You take words, mix them up and interpret them in a way that you prefer. Instead of reading them accurately. The worst type of argumentation. 👎
Ive only made 7 necks so far, but they all turned out fine using the levelling beam, never seen anyone do it your way, not saying your wrong but it doesn't make sense to me. By he way you could pass as my younger brother, uncanny look alike.
@@StuartClaybourn there’s a bass player in the US called Jon Letts who looks similar too. Regarding frets each to their own. The fret heights should be equal and when you attack the whole fretted board with a beam it disregards the neck entirely. Frets shouldn’t be treated as an object xtra layer of flatness. We only need to deal with high frets.
I believe the truss rod is there for different weather as when its cold the neck straitens under tension and when it is hot the timber bends under tension, with a duel truss rod less so.. musicians that travel the globe and guitars that are distributed around the world also 7 & 8 string hold more tension hence duel truss rods, I own a EVH Wolfgang it has graphite rods and a truss rod because its maple which is soft and a short scale with a minimal headstock, it also runs from a 12 ich radius to a 16 ich radius hence the need for the graphite rods.. As far as leveling frets, i also disagree with you, respectfully, yes there should be a slight back bow to get the right action but the frets need to be level completely so with a good low action there is no fret buzz which eventually will occur with wear, if there is a perfectly set up guitar from new, which ive owned many eventually with years of playing fret buzz does occur, you lower the fret in front of the buzz and then the next fret will buzz, ive repaired many and refretted dozens, fret leveling is a nessesary step. Thats not to say that if you have a fret press and are building from new it cant be minimised but I would argue that also depends on the timbre you use, the climate you're working in and the fret size and material you use and the longevity of the guitar also where it ends up around the globe, Its not just as simple as you make out when you consider these issues.
Traditionally the rod is there to counteract string tension. That’s all it is there for. If a neck is affected badly by humidity changes it should be levelled and regretted in that environment.
This video is absolutely stuffed with bad information and bad techniques, and nobody should view it as any kind of teaching aid except as a demonstration of what not to do when attempting to level frets. 1) You're not even supporting the neck except at one point where it sits on your little rest. Every stroke you make when sanding down your frets can push the neck down into a bowed shape as you apply pressure, which makes all of your leveling completely worthless. Actually, it's worse than worthless, because you're removing material from the frets but you're not keeping the neck straight, so you're losing fret height that you can't get back. The neck has to be supported so it will stay straight under the pressure of your sanding or filing. I built a neck jig that allows me to lock the neck into place and support it while measuring its straightness with dial calipers accurate to within one thousandth of an inch, but it's not necessary for everyone to go to such lengths just to level their frets. Some people have used a bag of buckshot as a neck support with great success, but the point is that the neck must be supported so it will stay straight or you are wasting your time. 2) Shorter levelers like the nylon block with sandpaper stuck to it shown in this video can be used if you only need to spot level in a specific area and you know exactly where the problem spot is, but it is inadequate for leveling an entire neck. A longer leveler IS needed to level an entire neck, despite what this man claims. Using a shorter leveler for a whole neck makes it impossible for you to keep track of the height of one area relative to any other area, so you could end up sanding an area in the lower frets down to a lower height than the area along the same string path in the higher frets. So you could end up with an area around frets 2-6 that you've had to sand down aggressively, removing a significant amount of material and thus lowering the fret height in that area, and then have another area around frets 8-12 that you barely had to touch to get leveled, and now those frets are much taller than around frets 2-6, and then you've got a major problem. Using a longer leveling tool can mitigate these issues, if not eliminate them. I'm not going to watch this video again to find more wrong things to explain here; my time is worth more than that. But suffice it to say, this fellow is sorely lacking in knowledge of this subject, which is already bad, but he also sees fit to style himself as an authority on it and thinks he can teach others, which is much worse. Surely there are other sources available on youtube on the subject of fret leveling. Please, go find one of them that knows what they're talking about.
Spot levelling this way is absolutely the way to go. Most necks are not completely flat anyway and most people don’t have jigs to achieve that. You are correct about keeping the neck supported. I normally have my rest under the area I’m sanding. But the whole board does get sanded. Maybe I’ll make another video about it. There were a few points I missed during this video to be fair. But you definitely do not need to sand the whole board. You can if you want. But the aim is to have a set of frets that has no high or low spots so the guitar plays without buzzing with strings set at the optimal height for that neck. If you’ve achieved that then you have reached your goal. You can level this way to active that goal perfectly well. If you need jigs and other things to get there then that’s fair enough. I find all that completely unnecessary and have had no complaints. My own worst critic is myself. If it didn’t work this way, I wouldn’t do it…because it wouldn’t be good enough for me. I have to be satisfied with every guitar as a player of 35 years first and foremost.
@@JonLettsGuitarsoptimal string height though may be affected considerably if some frets end up sitting much lower than others. The way I've now come to think of this, it's hard for me to be certain what results I'm getting with shorter beams. But with a long one, there's the more critical part of a straight neck. There seem to be positives and negatives to consider with different approaches. Need to experiment more with both and compare results.
@@Dimiguitar Yea. I mean, if a neck is absolutely dead flat with laser precision. And held in place with a jig and the beam is is also held perfectly parallel while levelling then yes I would say that the long bean would be great. Of course most necks are not laser flat and, to my mind anyway, the shorter beam is the most logical and effective method. The video only shows my opinion after 15 years doing this. For a long time I didn’t even recrown. Usually just a quick going over with a short beam like this and the hand sanding the edges was how I did it. But lately idk. Maybe my fretwork has gotten worse as I find I have to recrown more than I used to. I used to use evo gold wire exclusively as it was great at holding its shape and took hammering incredibly well. But it became unavailable and I think stainless steel frets are not all they are cut out to be. Nickel is really terrible if you hammer frets like I do.
@@Dimiguitar they just don’t seem as tough as they should. Like they don’t hold their form as well as evo gold. I don’t think the steel quality in steel frets is that great.
Sorry man but I think your doing this completely wrong. You could really mess up a guitar with your technique here who ever told you this method. It doesn't make sense. The guitar neck needs to be completely flat, before you level the frets. If you level the frets with relief in the neck you sand off more fret material on the frets near the nut than the rest of the frets. You need a completely flat leveling beam at least twice the length if what you have to get an accurate leveling of the frets. You use that beam in the opposite direction to what your doing, as in sand back and forth between nut and saddle. There could be major discrepancys from one end of the fretboard to the other. This is a new guitar but what about an older one?
Yes the neck needs to be flat. I said that. No. You definitely need to sand side to side to get as there is a radius here. And as stated strings do not buzz on the frets around the fretted not. Not five frets up or whatever. It’s really great to have a mechanical mind. I’m thankful for mine. Thanks for watching. ☮️
I think he's right, it's another way to do it, and it'll probably work fine if not better, people can't handle a file confidently so they insist on a long beam, this guy's got good ideas worth considering, yep! 👍
