Frieren: Beyond Journey's End 

*vibrates to contain golden city spoilers*

I was looking for this comment lol, I was almost surprised he was making this point but then I remembered not everyone reads the manga.

Yeah, every time I see someone level that complaint about the whole 'demons being a race of pure evil sentient monsters,' I'm like what??? And then I realize they are anime only and go: oh, I get it , you good pfft

Let us sit giddily on our spoilers and be excited for him to find out soon hehe

Madhouse MAKE A SEQUEL FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE PLEASE

The only adjustment I’d make is having Frieren say “it’s what Himmel the hero would have done” instead of requoting his whole spiel

The Costco Frieren memes give it a run for its money, but both are quite good

"and also I love you" absolutely sent me to heaven

This was made to mock the show but ironically it praised it

​@@alilweeb7684 I also think it makes perfect sense since Frieren is like a Robot and Fern was literally raised by her, of course she'd pick up things.

Exactly 😂 I was dying the whole time cause that's literally how the scene goes... and then we all start crying. It's sappy, it's amazing, and it does sound kinda dumb, but that's it. That's the Frieren experience.

Also, they were together for an entire decade... Even if they had times when they suffered, there will also be plenty of times where things worked out. If you're looking back fondly - why wouldn't you remember the good times? There are clear moments when the flashback is a distinctly different location and time in the "hero's journey" which seems to show this - she's not just remembering the time where she was in the same place before, but the time in that 10 year period that most closely matches the current event or feelings.

Yeah, she probably wouldn't remember a situation where himmel took a weird step and fucked up his ankel for a few days where stark didn't do that. Or if she does, it's not brought up because it would be kinda boring

Not only that but the whole point of the second journey is to try and get to know people better because Frieren by her own admission didn't know them that well. She probably keeping thinking about the good parts because she remembers them better that the bad ones.

I agree and read the manga the same way, but I believe that EP has a point that the show or manga never says that the memories were romanticized since Frieren is presented as a character who has incredible memory. As she knows a lot of spells, it's implied her personal memories are true to the past and no way altered and I think the show could at least clarify that a little.

While that’s true, the main critique came in the fact it’s just not conveyed well enough, (according to what I’ve heard I’ve yet to see frieren.)

Yeah, the only person who uses "corrupt priest" in the new party is Frieren, I believe.

Agreed, plus I think the show is intentionally using repetition to give a sort of... rhythm? to the dialogue. It feels like reading an epic poem, which is very appropriate to the tone it's going for.

I think with Frieren being pretty clearly coded as autistic, it actually works. People with autism often will build up a set of default responses to certain questions or reactions, because they know itll come up again, and being put on the spot just for doing what feels natural gets really stressful if you arent prepared. Frieren has probably been asked something along the lines of "do you even like magic" a few dozen times over the course of her life, and realized that whatever thoughtfully considered answer she mightve once tried to give never seemed to satisfy people as much as the simple and practiced one she now defaults to. So "somewhat" might be kind of vague and leave a lot of nuance unsaid, but it is probably true in a broader sense while simultaneously sparing the time and effort it would take to give a "proper" answer that would only fall on deaf ears in most cases, making it a good enough response to default to.

Yeah, everyone has mannerisms like that to some extent. You hang around with friends long enough and it's nearly guaranteed you guys will follow some conversation patterns to the point you start repeating the same words and lines verbatim without even thinking about it. "Corrupt priest" is a bit of a translation issue. It means pretty much that, but it's one word and it's functionally equivalent to Frieren calling Heiter a jackass whenever he is being a jackass

Like, I have phrases that I will repeat ad nauseam I genuinely felt that it made the dialogue sound more like the way people talk in reality and less like professionally scripted dialogue.

i'd say translation issue

@@pieperson444 Probably the same for both (though god knows I won't check), thus the comparison is apt.

@@pieperson444 likely the term used is more akin to "rotten" than "corrupt".

Not me only being able to see half the screen when she's around

There might not be boobs, but there's a disproportionately high number of close up elf feet shots.

​@@IHOMilkYeah, that was definitely intentional...

​@@IHOMilkit's a homage to Tolkien :D

Haha, like she cares about that enough to argue about it

she shouldn't have to worry, fern has enough for the both of them

Himmel would've given her a pair to nourish their children.

@@threefoursevenhundred2405 yikes

@@Hawk7886 ah yes joking about how two FICTIONAL characters would f・ck is truuuly deserving of yikes lmao get over yourself

I agree

If you are an anime only watcher, you'll understand more why that can't happen in S2. I don't remember if it was said in season one, but demons are simply monsters mimicking humans and their emotions

​@Purpletrident yep anime only watcher and they did say that a few time.

@@Purpletrident wrong

To me, I’ve grown tired of the “I can fix them” or “misunderstood villain” trope. Even Disney has milked those tropes dry and it’s the reason why so many people want to see irredeemable evil villains again.

The word she uses is 生臭坊主 (namagusabouzu), which for what it's worth does have its own dedicated entry on jisho

Yeah, this is something that's always lost in translation a bit, since in Japan it's very common when addressing someone directly to use their title/nickname. This is easier when it's a generic title like "king, queen, doctor, teacher, etc," but when it's a more specific combination of words, it's more awkward. For instance, every manga I've read centered around a "demon lord" will have this same awkwardness. Despite the audience and cast knowing their proper names, they'll still call them "Demon Lord (Maou-sama)" all the freaking time which ends up reading/sounding weird and repetitive.

I feel like it's when a character calls someone a Baka all the time. They don't change that up very often. You wanna save the thesaurus for going off on a massive tirade when the person does something especially egregious

​@@isaac_marcusI think this is a translation thing as well since I feel English has a ton more words for the same exact thing than Japan does and or it would feel weird in either language to not say the simple word that everyone uses and go with the ye old English Shakespearean word you heard in 10th grade English Class that one day

Translators love to translate the word 魔族 (mazoku) as "demons" despite the fact that 魔 means "supernatural" or "magical", and has the negative connotations only because people fear what they don't understand. I think the closest to Mazoku in D&D would be Tiefling species. They have some devil ancestry, but aren't really devils anymore, and the material plane is their home. "Demonkin" may be the right word to describe them, but may need corrections case by case. On the other hand, 悪魔 (akuma) means the proper "Demon" of a certain evil alignment. Once again, D&D does the right thing and uses both "Devils" and "Demons" in the setting as the separate species, that are both explicitly native to the other planes of existence.

i love them so much, they just look and act human on a very surface level but lack empathy, selflessness and are fully selfish, self serving beings who hold no form of shame. as such, they literraly arent evil but due to all evil being inherently selfish. they in turn, no matter what, are simply evil.

Exactly! They're chatGPT! I love that analogy! The demons are just very sophisticated mimics. Like the treasure chest mimic, they look like the thing they copy, but inside they are completely different. I really hate when people seriously say that Frieren is genociding the demons and being racist because the story goes to great lengths to show they are fundamentally not people! The demons just spec.ed into humanoid shape with language to make hunting easier. They’re like less creepy Alternates from analog horror. No one would say those things are real people. They are monsters. Just like the mimics pretending to be something they are not. So, unless later chapters of the manga subvert that, it has yet to be seen that Frieren is wrong about the demons.

I think Lugner's last words rather strongly contradict this idea, but it's true that demons don't understand human customs or habits. The ways of living among humans are so alien and of such little consequence to them that they rarely engage with them except to antagonistic ends.

I got a feeling there's higher being (god?) that creating them for some reason, which has something to do with humanity magic.

I actually wasn't rushing to watch it because I was reading the manga, but by God does the anime improve upon it. It's one of those few adaptations that really deserves to exist because it actually enhances the original material. It's neat we got multiple of those in the same anime season.

to be fair namakusabouzu is a relatively normal insult just not in english

Id imagine calling someone a corrupt priest in an high fantasy setting with magic and sorcery would be pretty normal honestly.

As someone who plays DnD my mind has warped to the point where I think it makes sense as a joke nickname

I mean it’s similar to how Naruto calls Jiraya “Pervy sage” all the time. It’s meant as an insult but also a term of endearment if you are close to the person. Kinda like “cheeky bastard”

Interesting, so what's that from

They absolutely can be good writing, it’s just such an incredibly thin line to walk that it tends to be easier to err on the side of complexity

@@RoecleanWarhammer Age of Sigmar, a race whose god literally kills them if they’re not being treacherous bastards all the time.

@@Roeclean I don't know if you found it by now but it's Warhammer 40K.

they understand logic, and have a very restricted range of emotions like fear, pride and anger. Also, are natural predators of humans, the most part of their language is full of terms and phrases that they don't really understand, save for the effect it has on humans. As clearly explained in a scene ("I said mother because that word blocks you to kill me") , they are unterstood by them like magical spells that have certain effects on humans, but you don't understand why.

The toxic old man yaoi will kill him

Ssssssshhhhhh don't give him ideas

El dorado Arc will absolutely be a game changer

GUUUUUYS SHUSH

A very tragic story. Probably the highest point from the manga so far

i love the lore of them being descendent of those mythical creatures that shouted help to lure in travelers

It's funny because in the manga they kinda imply demons maybe can be redeemed, but it would be such a horrifying task it's better to leave it alone

The problem is that there are moments when demons do show things like empathy and sentience (mostly thinking of Fern and Stark's solo fight mid season). The author doesn't know how to actually depict demons as they're described, so it comes off as Frieren being cruel and sadistic rather than simply pragmatic.

They have emotions their instincts are just very unique.

It’s weird because the demonic nature Frieren describes makes it seem innate while their actions showcase socialization - like the point the amount of mana they emit and their utter refusal to inhibit it in any way is a social construct and reasoning rather than an environmental one. It would be fine it if was just shown as a character flaw due to past trauma, but there’s no evidence that she is wrong nor do people really push back on it. It just feels contrived since there seems to be two types of demons, at the very least, being conflated: sentient and non-sentient, but this distinction is never shown and the counterarguments that demonic empathy is bad ie; the demon king, is a very weird argument. There’s a very reductive view here and the show is honestly worse for it.

It's an issue of implications. If the writer isn't careful you risk sending the wrong message to the audience. Replace 'demons' with 'black people' or 'trans people' coupled discourse about a group being inherently evil and not deserving of moral rights, and you see where the potential pitfall lies.

I've seen several people claim they're autism-coded. Probably unintentionally but it's still a yikes, ya know?

Even though I agree with you I do see his point. The flaws are often written as comedic bits and endearing. So much so that outside of the single incident with the demon child we don't see any mistakes that cause *real* consequences from the heroes party. It would be refreshing to get examples of them failing and Frieren leading the new party learning from those mistakes. Rather than most conflicts just feeling like a rehash of something the previous party already solved. There was two places in the story that could have been examples for that being Qual and Aura. In a way they both did by showing both the world of magic and Frieren's personal growth respectively. We also hear briefly about and know the HP failed since Qual had to be sealed and Aura still alive, but we don't get to see those failures unlike the many examples of success we do see in flashbacks.

For himmel: Frieren mentioned that she had trouble remembering her mentor, Flamme, because it’s been so long; she has trouble separating flamme the myth from flamme the mentor. Himmel, as stated by someone smarter than me, is theorized to constantly make statues to make sure Frieren has physical proof that he existed, no matter where she went.

​@@rylanward7039theorized? He said so outright.

Don’t forget that Himmel got mad at Frieren when she was damaging the bodies of the soldiers Aura was controlling. She didn’t understand why it was of much importance the first time but she learned why and changed tactics the second time. Heiter also didn’t deceive Frieren for an entire year, it was for 4-5 YEARS.

In other words, the names are stupid, and even moreso if you speak german.

I disagree, I think the names are kinda silly, because German isn't a foreign language to everyone, and imagine if you were watching a show where the warriors name was "strong", there's an old magic man named "think", and another one named "learn". Those aren't names, they are descriptors.

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@notmyfullname598i mean noun names are pretty common, at least in english. like i wouldn’t care much if the warrior was named “Steel”, the old magic man was named “Wise”, and another one was named “Quill” (that one was a bit of a struggle) you wouldn’t think it’s too weird. i think the idea works just fine, but could maybe use some better execution (or a native german speaker to make sure it doesn’t sound weird)

⁠@@notmyfullname598My name means “field”, apparently. Like “The Plains”. That type of field. Names do mean things even in English. It’s just many of us (at least in the USA) don’t know it or are disconnected from that understanding of names. Most people in the mainstream culture don’t typically intentionally name based on common understood meanings. That is, people aren’t normally trying to. My brother has a much more common name. A common religious name which also has a meaning beyond what people hear in the name in English. The meaning is “He shall add” or “God will add” or “Jehovah increases.”

i feel the EXACT same way and it's so fascinating nearly to the point of frustration. when i was watching, those scenes immediately struck me as something that, in any other story, would've turned me off. but for SOME reason it, it just doesn't. oddly enough, a lot of the time i like those scenes BECAUSE of how on the nose they are. my working theory right now is that with frieren's established conflict being her feelings of regret for not appreciating her time with her friends, it's just kinda sweet to see that wasn't ALWAYS the case and/or maybe it's the promise that her new friends evoking memories of her old party that she didn't appreciate will also push her to take the time to connect with this new one, but i don't think either are the whole picture. this may be the fastest i'll ever rewatch any show ever, because part of me REALLY wants to break down exactly how Frieren works, but the new Frieren impacted side of me just wants to enjoy it for what it was for a little bit. if you or anyone else has a thought, i'd love to hear because god knows I'm gonna be thinking about it for awhile

Another reason why it's the GOAT

Frieren is cute and based??? I'm gonna watch

the fanservice: head pats and frieren doing gacha with the mimics

You know, that's a really good point! I'll send Stark and his ambiguously sized penis an apology.

​@@ExplanationPointAnime I'm sure they'll both appreciate that.

Agreed - it may be the first time elves were portrayed like this in anime specifically but its not anything new at all

Thank you for mentioning this. I found the world building to be Frieren's biggest flaw. Rather than a fantasy setting connected to the story and characters, it feels more like a stereotypical RPG setting tacked onto the story.

Functionaly the thing you said about the flashbacks and old party feeling fake is probably what makes the show not work for me.

You’re treating frieren flashbacks like they are naruto ones, but they serve completely different purposes and treating flashbacks as a problem rather than a writing technique that is normally abused can cloud your judgment. Like in Stark’s dragon case: the tension in the scene is not whether if Stark or Frieren would get killed but why is there such a stalemate in the first place and how such character flaws will ripple in the future. Naruto puts flashbacks as filler, Frieren uses it as juxtaposition to flesh out not only the current characters but the past as well as changes in Frieren since her first party. It’s basically like going into One Punch Man and hoping to see more Saitama instead of everyone else.

I completely agree. the fights have no stakes since the whole party are just the naturally most powerful people in the world. the flashback writing is poor and contrived and the characterization is one-note. the world building and magic are also kinda lackluster besides the ideas behind zoltraak - like the whole tournament arc could be from any generic fantasy battle anime. the show is decent maybe but I wouldn't say this is any better than Naruto frankly

@@lawrencehan463 I can see how you would interpret my issues with the story that way, (because i worded them kinda poorly and its hard to communicate perfectly via text). Because they are using flashbacks to explore the flaws of the characters and the ways in which those flaws can be overcome, at the end of a flashback the narrative threat will be resolved, this is what I meant in my comparison to naruto, that the way to win a fight is to have a flashback. This is much more ok in friren than in naruto because the goals of the story are different, in a story about fighting, bypassing the fighting via emotional beat is pretty wack, wheras a story about emotional beats, using emotional beats to end conflicts/threats is (in theory) a great solution. My problems are the following 1) The fights are functionaly a means of forcing introspection for the characters, which is an interesting approach, and wouldnt be a bad thing, except: 2) The emotional beats arent very impactful to me. Many of them wring hollow for different reasons, but it feels to me that most of the time the entire threat of the story hangs in the balance of if friren wants to introspect about the problem or not. A flashback starts halfway through a fight where somone almost dies and I just think "why didn't we talk about this earlier, *before* dealing with the threat." and I can get that fern is antisocial and very bad at introspection, but a story about a character who dosn't communicate, dosn't like interacting with characters and wants the easy life while *simultaniously* that character is endlessly driven to kill all demons, can't lose because of how strong they are, and who's desire for conflict brings their life, and the lives of those around them into peril, while simultaniously only ever winning in relativly spur of the moment flashbacks feels so bizzare to me. Its not like "invalid" to do an emotional exploration of this character, i just find them deeply uninteresting, because they simultaniously just kinda wander around but also arn't excited to revist places they have once seen or are interested in change. Overall its the same problem I have with a lot of anime, where instead of making a deeply interesting protagonist, they make a really "sad" or "worthless" one who dosn't know how to live properly and needs to really find out who they are, which on its own is a fine direction, but ive watched/read so many stories where the premise is "person with a lot of power has personality flaws that get the people around them into trouble, but grow as a character to overcome these flaws to get the people around them out of danger" the very very basic example of this is EVA (which im also not the biggest fan of in the world) and while friren is like pretty good at that type of story, and has a very interesting premise for putting the protagonists into that type of emotional situation (where most shows/books use "they are a teenager") Its not that friren is bad, its that frerien is like, very very deeply mid to me, and I don't see how people are saying its litteraly the best thing ever. Seriously I reccomend reading "Growing Tired of the Lazy High Elf Life After 120 Years" (god that name is bad) for a story where time is a deeply impactful factor, the main character has emotional flaws they work through in the story, but events occur in the present, and the story realizes that fights are not really meaningful in the story, so keeps them to a minimum unless the characters have failed in some way (either emotionaly or otherwise). Even though (similarly to friren) the elf protagonist can bypass many types of threats, the story actualy fufills that an dosnt spend a full episode (worth of manga) on fighting a guy who litteraly ferireirn has had a plan to beat forever and theres like no reason we should watch this fight end, and rather spends wayyy more of its runtime on the emotional and interpersonal parts of the story. Its by no means perfect, but I think its a good comparison to frerien as it handles both conflict and the emotional toll of time waaaaay better than frerien does. (it has flaws in other areas to be sure though) Also, for the stark/dragon example its all well and good for it to be an emotional arc for the character and everything, but the dragon is like activly blocking trade and making the local area inhospitable. The dragon is actively a threat to the people around it that needs to be dealt with. (as seen when they go fight the dragon due to it activly being a threat) and by not dealing with it the protagonists are screwing over the entire town and the surounding area. Stark not wanting to because he thinks hes weak, even though he is strong, is a fair reason to deal with it, but theres a "shut the fuck up and get in the robot shinji, theres a kaiju thats threating the lives of everyone i love" type problem with the entire set up. Im getting too (litteraly) tired/sick to expand on this more (ive been doin a lot of typin lol) but if this final point was unclear, ask me about it and ill try to clarify)

@@momochora Thats pretty well how i feel, the show dosn't rise above the slop level of anime. Theres an unlimited number of shows with 10000 episodes each which are all about as good as friren, but people are talking about it like its the second coming of FMA, and im incredibly lost. It feels simmilar to onepeice, which i have tried and treid to find the story that people call a godly work of mastery of storytelling and art, and genuinley have watched probably 40 hours of anime, and i read the manga through twice to try and see where the good parts were (up to around evil string man country the first time, and till the start of evil cake/food country the 2nd time) and like genuienly its unbelivably mid. Which is to say, i feel simmilarly about friren and onepeice, where i want to, and have REALLLY tried to like them, but they just really dont have that much going on. Drives me nuts because i wish i could experience the great awsome story everyone talks about, instead of the middling storys that exist.

Also, the Frieren haters in the comments are gonna drive me mad. They literally never raise a good point...

Yooo i love both though i like aria the manga a lot more than its anime.