I'll never understand people who get upset when someone doesn't like a character before they've started their redemption arc. At that point in the story you're SUPPOSED to not like them. That's WHY the redemption arc is satisfying to watch. "Oh you'll like him later on" "He's not the monster you think he is" "Keep watching he gets better" Comments like these about characters are all ridiculous AND mild spoilers. The viewer is SUPPOSED to not like them when they're first introduced. That's how the story is written
Exactly. He became my fav character in book 3 but I absolutely despised him before which was clearly GRRM's intent. I don't see why anyone would be upset they disliked him before season 3??! 😑
Omg! Thanks for stating this. Comments like that are so annoying because, as you've stated, they are mild spoilers. The reactors should be given no hints whatsoever.
Jamie is not a good guy. He never becomes a good guy. What he IS…is complicated. He’s a lesson in how we can’t judge a person by their worst moments. It’s just that we’re pretty much exclusively introduced to him via his worst moments.
Claiming he "never becomes a good guy" is your interpretation, maybe you base that only on late season 8, which is a clear deviation from what GRRM laid the ground for. D&D basically retconned the character. I don't think any of season 8 should be taken into consideration by anyone who takes the other seasons seriously.
@@AriaIsara Jamie isn’t a good guy. He’s not a bad guy. He’s a complicated guy. People aren’t split into black and white paradigms. That’s the whole point. I am strongly of the opinion that all of this world (the books, the writing, and especially the show) are pretty mediocre to be honest, and the commercial success hinges more on appealing to the basest, most feral impulses of humans than on actually good storytelling. But one of the real achievements of GRRM (one of the few, in my opinion, unless you consider commercial success/money an achievement) is how three dimensional and real - flaws, virtues, and all - some of these characters feel. Jamie is one of those characters. But he’s not a good guy. There’s no read of the character (even if you ONLY go by what GRRM actually wrote in the books, and ignore the show…that he was still heavily involved in writing, even beyond the published books) that equals “good guy.” That’s just not correct. It’s also not fair to call him a monster, even though he’s done clearly monstrous, evil things. He’s more complex than such rudimentary labeling.
@@jasonmarbach I didn't say he is just a good guy. He has a whole arc and complex mind, he is a morally grey character, but the way you phrased "he is not and never becomes a good guy" seemed like a reference to late season 8 hence my reply. Have you actually read the books? Calling them mediocre is ridiculous, I'm sorry. The show did appeal to a wider, dumber audience with lots of gratuitous sex scenes, and as soon as Martin became less involved the depth of the dialogues and complexity of the political intrigue went away. But I don't know why you blame the books.
@@AriaIsara The books took me about 4 days to read back in 2014. I blew through them and really enjoyed them the first time I read them, so there’s that. I came back to try and read them again two or three years later and found it nearly impossible to get through them. I actually never watched the show until after season 8 had already ended, though I did eventually grit my teeth and get through it. The show isn’t mediocre, it’s actively bad, as far as I’m concerned. It’s fun to watch folks react to it, though. There’s a lot of things that I either missed or forgot in the books from my first read (when I enjoyed it) that jumped out at me the second time I tried to read it. The characters that are good (Jamie, the Hound, Tyrion, Arya etc) are still wonderfully complex and compelling (though even the first time I read the books, I wondered if George had ever so much as met a woman before, and that feeling was even more pronounced the second time through) but the books themselves really rely on the pulp and viscera more than good storytelling, too. Not as egregiously as the show does, of course, but it’s still not great. GRRM is a good world builder, and really excels at morally gray characters with making them feel complex and human. I was struck by the fact that he’s not actually a very good storyteller, though, on my second read.
Just as one example, Catelyn Stark is…good lord, she’s just terrible in the books. I don’t mean terrible like early series Jamie, where she’s kind of monstrous (though she is that too), I mean the whole storyline with her after the return (trying to avoid spoilers, but if you’ve read the book, you know what I mean…it happens after a certain crimson nuptials event) is just errant, waffling nonsense. Like, the show is kind of bad and really leans into the sex and blood because that’s the only way Benioff and Weiss apparently know how to make things, and the show actively leaned into most of the worst elements of the books (like the red magic stuff, when the show really went off the rails for good when a certain person of the night’s watch returned from death) but STILL the show made sure to cut the superfluous, silly Catelyn stuff.
Jamie is a great example of how everyone has Dark and Light in them. It's also crazy when you've seen the entire show the things you find yourself willing to forgive. Theon and Jamie are examples of how bad they start and as they suffer we begin to feel bad for them
OK when people genuinely find remorse for their actions and change from them, then you can forgive them When they don’t end up learning anything and keep repeating the same mistakes and you forgive them anyway because they got karma, you’re the kind of person narcissists love to hang out with 😂 aka enabler
I don't think people feel bad for Jaime because he suffered. He only lost a hand, nothing comparable with the torture Theon went through. The reason people forgave Jaime or started liking him is because we get to know more of who he truly is (more obvious in the book with his POV chapters), and because he showed us _with actions_ that he can be good and make the moral choice (saving Brienne twice).
I hear what you’re saying, just make sure you tell everyone not to spoil. The genuine reaction is what most of us are here for. Most of the characters are written as neither black or white but a shade of gray as most of us are in real life. No one is entirely good or bad and that fact makes people interesting and always able to change. Some go from good to bad some go from bad to good and some die along the way. Life is like a box of chocolates, You never know what you’re gonna get.
You say what you want, you two are great. Jaime's a monster, little Tyrone, Double Beard...I don't give a fuu...I've rewatched Game of Thrones more than 10 times since 2012...Watching it again with you two makes it feel like the first time...keep on keeping on
I cannot respond the way I want because it would throw even more spoilers at the post which I just won't do. 😊 However, you said bad people can sometimes do good things this is 100% true and so accurate! This is why when neighbors are interviewed by reporters say things like "He was such a kind and generous person who helped everyone in the neighborhood. So considerate and caring. Who would have ever thought he was killing people and burying them under the floorboards of his living room?" You cannot simply claim someone is good when they have no real remorse for things they do nor claim their good balances the evil in some way. People can be loving and kind to those they care for but still lack remorse and truly feel justified for the evil they have done and would do again. Such as in Jamie's case, he would do it again if his sister asked him to...all "for love" as he said.
I never understood why people make comments like this. You know for a fact they havent seen what you have so they have no reason to think of Jaime as anything other than what he's been shown to be.
FACTS. I've never understood how people started to like him or softened up to him just because he got a bit of character development and they got to "get to know him better" 😂😂 the guy threw a a lil boy out of the window of a tower😮 slept and made babies with his sister😮 kingslayer😮😮 . Maaaan, miss me with that pretty privilege.
That comment you got is inappropriate because up to season 3, Jaime DOES appear as trash, so there is at this point no reason to blame you for sh!tting on him, and I say that even though he actually is my favourite character along with the Hound (I like morally grey characters), but I absolutely despised him up to early season 3, which is clearly what GRRM wanted people to feel like. In the books, each chapter gets the point of view of a character and we know their thoughts. During book 1 and 2 Jaime is only seen through other characters' POV chapters (Ned, Catelyn, Tyrion for the most part). In book 3 we get chapters with Jaime's POV. I remember starting to read the book (that was before having seen season 3) and being annoyed at the thought of having to go through his chapters because I wasn't interested in knowing the thoughts of such a trashy individual. But that is GRRM's genius that he turns the character on its head when after 2 books he lets you glimpse in his mind. It's frustating though that the showrunners clearly disliked his character, since they added the cousin killing in season 2 and other things in the upcoming seasons, that make him darker than in the books. So as a "Jaime fan" I have no issue with your jokes at all lol, I think you'll soon see (or have seen already since I think you are a few episodes past what's on the channel) that deep down he's not evil, and falls into the category of "has done nasty things but has good in him".
OK that commentor is ridiculous. I don’t know what kind of iffy morals they have, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with you guys considering James, a monster. Just because bad guys occasionally do something good it is not mean to not still bad guys Even Hitler had his highlights, like refusing to damage war monuments and playing with his dog Don’t mean he wasn’t a monster
i would say incest is clearly a lot more common in the world of game of thrones. it was pretty common in royal families in the real world too since keeping the power withing the blood lines and you wouldnt have to worry as much about your successor trying to kill you in your sleep if it was already someone coming from a place of higher standing. but yea obviously yall are very religious and the morality of things are going to land a lot differently. though if we look at the world today and the divorce rate being so high and how many couples actually stay together for the long hall? not having just grown up together but they shared a womb together... no one knows each other as well as twins do i guess. so if they happen to fall in love with each other? weird... yes... im not gonna condem someone for that though. and especially with yall watching house of the dragons and my understand was with the targaryen incest was insanely common and they had that saying that insanity was a byproduct of incest when a child is born its a coin toss between normal and insane and they compared that to why joffrey might be such a monster. but yea basically incestious love between twins.. thats gotta be on a much deeper level than what 2 random people feel for each other for 20 years then get divorced. still weird but in an equally weird way its more real? or a form of Stockholm syndrome i definitely feel at this point you have seen jamie do more good than bad.. even when fighting ned he wasnt going to take advantage of that unfair situation one of the other guards handed him. yea pushing bran out the window was pretty rough. the risk of letting bran go and telling someone about his affair with Roberts wife..... that would have been death for both of them though so that in a way was kind of a survival choice on his part. but considering Cersei pretty much implied that she was responsible for poisoning Robert on the boar hunt or at least drugging his wine so that he could more easily get bodied. which if that was her intent worrying about what Bran might have said wouldnt have mattered much. But Cersei also pretty much told him to kill bran..... and as weve seen Jamie cant say no to her. from a story point of view though that was needed to move along a whole lot of other story plots so... But yea some people gotta cut you guys a break lol i think out of all the reactors ive watched you guys are the most religious or at least most open about it. maybe except this one girl i saw watch the exorcist and it had her so shook she started questioning if she should even be reacting any more because so many of the recommendations were for stuff that would mess with her head. but IMO if a show or movie can shake your faith..... how strong is your faith? me personaly i think the last time i went to church was 1995. I started questioning my faith in high school and just the way my brain worked was in such conflict with everything the bible was saying making me feel like an awful person though i considered myself to be a pretty nice guy for the most part. so i decided i would rather go through life solo than hoping their is a god and a grand plan for me. if im wrong hey... i made that choice. but the god i was raised to believe in wouldnt have petty human emotions to be like "believe in me or burn for all eternity" thats some human level petty nonsense. though the teachings were always contradictory... god is all loving and merciful.... but hes vengeful.. ok those things dont go together lol. there is so much in this universe is someone created it all.... he would be too busy to care about what we do. especially when birth defects can turn a normal new born child into a monster serial killer just cause some wires got crossed during fetal development. cant blame the person for developing wrong in the womb
I watched all 8 seasons of GOT. And Jamie was a bad guy from start to finish. I don’t care if he is some fan favorite and that some people give him some redemption trophy. He was never other than a vilain to me And he still is.
You should read the books. Season 1 to 4 are a mostly faithful adaptation because GRRM was very involved in the show. Then the showrunners decided to do without his input and changed a LOT of things from book 4 and 5, and not in a good way. The books have POV chapters where we know what characters think. If you think Jaime is only a villain then I'm sorry but you don't understand the character so read the books. (And season 8 is a clear retconning of the character that has nothing to do with what the books and early faithful seasons established).
I hate the back and forth with Jamie. That man is a villain. Sometimes he wants sympathy. Sometimes he wants to do good. Sometimes, he feels guilty. However, this man is evil. Just because he isn't as evil as his son, father, or sister does not make him a good guy. Also, is this a society thing? Women liking the bad boy, especilally when he is handsome and blonde. Is that why Daemon is forgiven for all the evil acts that he has done?
Jaime does do terrible things, but the show adds more to make him more unlikable. They also go out of their way to make Catelyn more likable. People need to let you experience this and remember that watching the show you aren't in Jaime's head. You aren't going to understand his motivations or seems his observations. All that said, Melisandre should be higher on the got list than Jaime in my opinion. Maybe she is and I missed it, but she burns people alive.
He’s disturbed in the noggin, along with his sisterlover. They are both pretty selfish individuals with serious issues. I know that describes many of the characters but those two - especially since they are hot for each other - are at the top of the horrible list.
