SPOILER WARNING: At 41:30, we discuss the fate of Kellanved and Dancer. While it's possible to figure this out from reading Gardens of the Moon alone and connecting the dots, it's something that is explicitly confirmed only in the early part of Deadhouse Gates (book two).
I did not pick up on this in my first time reading. And couldn't believe deadhouse gates has such a revelation casually thrown out. And then on my second reading I couldn't believe how obvious it was.
Esslemont has mentioned that Coll, Murillio, and Rallick are inspired by Athos, Aramis, and Porthos respectively. As soon as I heard it it seemed so obvious!
It does seem obvious once you hear it! I actually read The Three Musketeers about a year ago, and Coll's drunkenness plus his lost status are definitely reminiscent of that story, as well as Murillio's appearance and liaisons with noblewomen. Great insight!
First thing I did after finishing GotM was come here and watch this discussion. Great commentary, and a great way for me to wrap a bow around the book and prepare for the rest of what's shaping up to be a spectacular series.
I’m so glad this discussion had value for you! Talking about this series has really helped to deepen my appreciation for it. That’s the beauty of BookTube, my friend!
Kruppe was one of my favourite characters on my first read through of GotM. I listened to the audio narration and the voice for Kruppe was so amazing. Made me love him even more.
Interesting insights into why the book starts with the aftermath of the siege. I have always interpreted it as mirroring how we look back on history. We often start with the outcome, and then reflect back on how we got there. Custer’s last stand, followed by how he got there. WW2, and the events that led to the start of the war, or its end. The fall of the Berlin Wall, and the struggle of pulling down an oppressive regime (and the various perspectives in that struggle, because nothing it truly black and white).
That is a really great point (which I wish that I had made), and it connects to the book (and the series) as being a 'history' of what happens. Erikson and Esslemont both often have multiple reasons and justifications for their choices, and blending an external reason with an internal explanation is exactly the kind of sneaky thing that they both do. I could talk for several hours about various aspects of the book and still have points and material left to cover. But there is never a guarantee that we will ever get the full 'truth' behind every narrative choice. However, I think that a 10 hour video of critical analysis would try everyone's patience and possibly blow up Philip's computer.
Ha ha! Not just my computer, but possibly my mind! That said, this series is on the short list of things I could actually enjoy critically discussing for ten hours.
I love this insight, Francois! Given how often the subject of history comes up in both Erikson and Esslemont's books, and given also the healthy distrust or re-examination of historical narrative they often exhibit, I think you're onto something cool there.
Absolutely fabulous. I loved A.P.'s introduction of course, and the previous non-spoiler intro, but... this is the stuff I cannot wait for. Actual in-depth analysis, talking about specific scenes, points, language... the series is so rich, and as you proved can more than stand up to scrutiny... People talk about the books all the time, but rarely approach it from this literary angle...when the core of its power is as a literary work. I'm so glad you get to bring these discussions to us, we're so blessed. Thanks. (The clue about the wax-witch being hinted at with Sorry's tics... wow!!!)
Thanks, Zan. It makes me happy to know that Malazan veterans like you are enjoying these discussions. I feel incredibly fortunate to be talking with A.P. about this series. Not only am I loving my reading experience, but I’m also learning a great deal. This is the sort of thing I dreamed of when I started a BookTube channel. As you say, The Malazan Book of the Fallen is so rich that it supports tons of analysis, and I’m happy to contribute a bit!
I just finished GotM as part of Mike's Discord read-along so I'm devouring everything can spoilers-wise. One of the most powerfully enduring things about this book was how much it hooked me and is compelling me to want to know more and continue with the series. Thanks for putting the time into creating this content. It's an amazing supplement for first time readers like me.
Just finished this book. I am floored and feel so grateful that there are 9 more books in this series, not to mention the other books in the world. Just the depth man...and the imagination and the wonder and the...just the everything. Also, Kruppe is my favorite character in the book 😄 The comedy and the unexplained...so fascinating.
Just finished GotM and wow... the discussion you and AP had showed me how much I missed in my first read, especially how Dancer and Kellanved are Cotillion and Shadowthrone blew my mind. Will be looking forward to the rest of the series and discussions!
Thinking on this more and the it is ironic then that the Jaghut had the power but walked away, mostly. The Imass had none and in their quest for power could not. And love the Becket reference thrown in there. Very apt.
The Jaghut might be my favorite fascination in the Malazan world. Their ability to walk away baffles and intrigued me. Yes, A.P. is excellent in the apt reference department!
Loved this! I just finished GotM and started book 2. Watching this made me realize how much fun it can actually be to discuss and analyze a book. Way back in school literature class ruined reading for me and it took years (decades?) to get back to being a book nerd. This... is how it should be done. Engaging, questioning, enjoying. Thank you both very much.
A.R might be overrated but A.P is definitely underrated! Great video once again and it's pretty clear these videos with him are going to give us all a lot of gold!
The point about open-end, ambiguous details is so important, in retrospect. When I list my favorite scenes in the books, I notice how many of them just open a gate of possibilities that can be filled by the reader. This is very effective in the Book of the Fallen. The series might as well be introduced with the phrase "Abandon Certainty all ye who enter here" :-P
Although I'm not the most well read fantasy reader at this time, I consider Gardens of the Moon one of the most underrated fantasy books I've ever read. Listening to this discussion brought back great memories of reading this book while providing interesting insights. I love the idea of chaos disrupting the timeline. Interesting point about Anomander Rake and equating powerful positions with limited choices. I'll have to give that more thought!
I'm glad we could bring back some good memories! I also agree with you that Gardens of the Moon gets more criticism than is warranted, but lately I've also heard Steven Erikson express that he thinks he could have made it easier on the reader in Gardens of the Moon. Well, nothing is perfect, I suppose! For me, the book was great the first time, but it was absolutely fantastic the second, and that, I think, is a sign of a great book -- one that gets better with the reread or is even worth rereading in the first place. This series in general is so rich that it probably rewards several rereads.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasyHow interesting that Erikson had that reflection! I'm so glad you enjoyed your reread so much. I completely agree that is a sign of a great book. This might sound over-the-top, but I enjoyed reading Gardens of the Moon so much that I felt a desire to go back to page 1 and reread the whole book as soon as I finished. I didn't do that, but I felt like I could have. That's saying something for me because I'm not always the best about rereading books. I definitely intend to reread this book though. Of course, I need to get through books 4-10 first!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy For most other series I would say that's a bit premature, but I trust a reread will enhance my experience. Yes, definitely a good sign!
I've enjoyed this video immensely. Congratulations, it's an amazing one! I am fascinated by the knowledge and the analysis capacity you guys have. Your backgrounds have the most interesting impact on this, as you don't only know the books and connect dots. The insight you guys bring to these books is something special. Thank you, thank you so much! Can't wait to see the next ones. Also, the fact that the vids are under 1 hour is also great (although I wish they were longer) because I think they prevent people for losing interest / attention over things. This is just my opinion, of course. I am very grateful for everything that you do :) Keep up the good work
Thank you so much! It makes me happy to know that fans of the series are enjoying the discussions that A.P. and I are having. I'm certainly learning a great deal from them. Yes, it's tricky to know how long to make a video. One goal is to provide something entertaining and interesting for all of you, and my instinct is that our original conversation of about one hour and forty minutes would have been too long for many people. Plus, it made sense to divide it between the spoiler free part and the spoiler filled part. I'm not sure how future discussions will work out, but we plan to have a spoiler free part for each video. Thanks again for watching and commenting -- it's wonderful to hear from you!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I am glad you went with your instinct on the length of the videos. Since we've all been indoors most of the year, and surrounded by screens, I think shorter videos are better. I was super happy to hear your opinions and analysis of Rake, and I hope to hear more of your thoughts on him in the following videos - in the books where he appears, of course :) I am a huge Rake fan, he is my favourite character in all literature ( sorry if I am repeating myself with this info). I would love to know your opinions on who Edgewalker is when the time comes to discuss him :) Thanks for everything, Philip, and for always being so kind to me :)
@@RoxanaMagdaD Rake is one of my favorites too, though for me Tehol Beddict just edges him for the top spot. Edgewalker is fascinating, and I think he’s about as ancient as they come. It will be fun to speculate when the time comes. It’s always wonderful to hear from you, so thank you!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I love Tehol too, and his dynamic with Bugg. There are some memorable moments in these books with these two guys, involving a lot of musing and laughter :) Quick Ben is a character I love and would like to know more about. Azathanai, Jaghut and Tiste Andii are to me the most fascinating in the series, and I'd love to have more books on them. We'll get more of them in WiS, and I'm certain that no matter how long that book is, I will have wished it was longer :) Will you and A.P. go over the Kharkanas books too? I think those books will spark amazing conversations between the two of you :)
@@RoxanaMagdaD That’s a great idea about discussing Kharkanas with A.P.! Perhaps we could do that when book three comes out. It would be fun! I also love Quick Ben, and I expect we’ll learn more about “him” in WiS!
Just finished the book for the first time, I loved it and this just made me love it even more! What a deep and thoughtful book! So excited for the next!
So glad to hear that kruppe gets more development in future books, I'm on book 2 and kruppe was by far my favorite character in Gardens. And I love a lot of the characters, but unlike AP I fell in love with Kruppe from the first moment I realized I was being introduced to a character that speaks of himself in the third person and basically narrates everything going on in such an over the top goofy way and everyone's just like "well that's kruppe". Then you discover he's actually kind of a genius and OP, he reminds me of Majin Buu a little bit if Majin Buu was actually doing it on purpose. Idk, kruppe is just lovely 🤩
Finished and I really enjoyed it. Quick thoughts. I love kruppe, he had such an intoxicating attitude and although it was clear that he was always more than he said he was, his seemingly positive attitude never seemed like a front. Also loved Crokus, as it seemed him and I were in the same boat… never having anything explained to us and in wayyyy over our heads haha! Sad to lose adjunct Lorn however, I was hoping she may get Lorn back for good, and lose the adjunct, but not to be. Loads more I could say of course, but i’m looking forward to Deadhouse Gates, can’t wait to get started. Time to watch this video now though and see what else I can learn:)
Just finished reading Gardens of the Moon for the first time. I avoided spoilers prior to reading, and enjoyed it immensely on my first read through, and about halfway through the book decided to commit to the series. Loved the ending, especially the way the various plots came together at a party of all places. Great channel, love these videos. I also follow APs channel
What an illuminating experience my re-read of Gardens of the Moon was, its like seeing a beautiful mosaic after wiping away much of the dirt. I must admit to being rather lukewarm to Whiskeyjack and Kruppe on my first read, but wow, I was surprised just how hilarious I found Kruppe now and how compelling I found Whiskeyjack to be. But generally speaking it was lovely revisiting these characters again, and many of them not only have I come to love over the course of the series but many have grown to become some of my favourite cast of characters in all of fiction. I cannot wait to continue my re-read since generally speaking Seven Cities is my favourite of the 3 major settings though I have grown fonder of Genabackis. I wasn't even half way through the Book of The Fallen and confidently saying it was in my Top 10 Fantasy series. Halfway through I said it was definitely Top 5. Once I had finished it was Top 3, where am I going with this? Glad you might have asked, and on this re-read I can see it becoming Numero Uno. And the most important reason, I never get sick of you both chatting Malazan.
Coming late to this, this comment will probably go unnoticed. I’m a huge fan of the MBotF, and am really enjoying these discussions. Some great theories and insights, so thank you both for those. On the discussion about Kruppe, there is for me a question of who is he really (probably similar to debate around Quick Ben). Kruppe might just be Kruppe. But he is a character who hides his intelligence, cunning, and magical ability behind a facade. Given his ability, he should surely be a member of Darujhistan’s Torrud Cabal, but he isn’t. Mention of Kruppe’s dreams is made in the video. In these dreams, Kruppe meets the Elder God, K’rul. It is also in kruppe’s dream that Tattersail’s soul is transferred from Nightchill to the Rhivi. Pretty powerful dreams, huh? So could they be more than dreams? Could they, perhaps, be Kruppe’s Warren? Moving this rather dubious theory forward, the Queen of Dreams is placed in High House Life in the Deck of Dragons. Is it possible, therefore, that Kruppe is an Ascendant within High House Life? Final thought - a warren is where rabbits live. Rabbits make rabbit holes.
Thanks, Graeme! I love your speculations on Kruppe. I have a feeling from chatting with Steven Erikson that we’ll never get a definitive answer about Kruppe’s true nature - that he’ll remain one of those Malazan mysteries with no answer, or an answer shared only between Erikson and Esslemont. It might be that Kruppe likes it that way too, but in the meantime, it’s fun to think about!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thanks for the (very quick) response. The ambiguity i# part of what makes Malayan stand above the crowd. As does your discussions with AP.
I'm really enjoying the these talks. It is very much enriching my reading experience with the book. Thank you both for taking the time to produce this discussion.
After re-reading Gardens of the Moon, I have a deep appreciation for Adjunct Lorn. The dinner scene in particular was very revealing on how Erickson fleshes out his characters. We learn a little but about how Adjunct Lorn wasn't always "Adjunct" arm of the empress. She herself was once a victim of empire and the memories of her slain family members resurfaces is evidence of that. Reading along we got to the Adjuct slowly "fracture" but at the end of the day her position as the empress takes over. It takes over her way of thinking about the world and it takes over the way she maneuvers the world in her relentless pursuit of the coin bearer even if she isn't very invested in being the right hand of the empress. Watching Lorn be so internally conflicted was probably my favorite aspect of this book. I will definitely be continuing the series again. Before I read up to Deadhouse Gates and I stopped because I got lost but now that I have a good grip on book 1 I'll be rereading book 2 soon. Thanks for the videos!
My pleasure, Rojelio! From your comments on Lorn, I think your understanding of Gardens of the Moon is excellent. Erikson is a master of delving into the nuances of character and the conflicts within a human mind. My very best wishes to you as you continue with Malazan!
Long time fantasy reader. Just finished Gardens of the Moon. Very unique book. Rare for a fantasy book to be driven by plot and not by characters. I was amazed by the lack of deep characterization and exposition. The lack of exposition makes full understanding of the material nearly impossible in just one reading. So many names of people, places and events are thrown out with no explanation at all of how they fit in the broader narrative. It is a book with a very broad scope, but we only get alluring hints of that scope. The book is very militaristic and political in tone, which I like, though the constant political intrigue is tiring. I appreciate that you mentioned the Iliad because I definitely was reminded of that in regards to how the gods play active roles in the story. Despite the shallow characterization, there are some great characters that keep us reading along, with Crokus and Captain Paran being my favorites. Kruppe immediately struck me as a Fizban from Dragonlance character and bored me. Eventually I came to respect Adjunct Lorn and felt that her and Captain Paran had the best chemistry. For me I hate the decision to kill Lorn at the end of the story and leave Paran pining for Tattersail, a relationship that really made no sense to me. The last 80 pages were completely pulse-pounding and incredibly fast-paced for fantasy. Frankly, there were probably too many things going on in the last 50 pages. Regardless, my main issues with the story were the constant resurrection of characters, the Paran/Tattersail relationship, and the decision to kill off Lorn, the most interesting female, at the end. Despite these plot issues, the writing is brilliant and there are enough great characters to keep me reading. I'm looking forward to reading on.
Gotta hard disagree on whether knowing about Shadowthrone and Cotillion is a spoiler (40:25 or so). There may be hints but it's definitely not made explicit until Deadhouse Gates.
Fair enough - it might be hard if you know the series well to remember that they were just hints in GotM, but I’ve heard from some very smart readers that they didn’t pick up on it in the first book, so I think you have a point.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Of course. If you're able to guess correctly from the foreshadowing, good for you, but it's a pretty confusing book. AP saying it's "obvious" from the "juxtaposition" is a little rich.
This book is one of the very rare instances in which I love something which I don't fully understand. I don't even quite comprehend why I love the book. Your discussion with A.P. helps me to clarify some things. I found the plot and story to be wildly unpredictable, that what i probably like the most from the book. Going on for the whole series.
It’s safe to say that Malazan has a few surprises! I’m so glad our discussion was helpful to you, and I hope you’ll continue to enjoy the series. It’s been a life-changing journey for me!
Oh yes! So much to chew on here, loved it! So much I want to jump on.. One of the things I loved about Gardens immediately was the way Erikson played with the traditional fantasy races. The Tiste Andii were the dark elves, obviously - Darkness, Chaos, long-lived, powerful - but as you discussed this gets completely turned on its head as we get to know Rake. The Jaghut were Orks - greenskinned, tusks, large - but instead of dumb brutes who form hordes, they are solitary and very smart and powerful individually. Tool is a skeleton, but instead of mindless husks the Imass have personality, purpose and great strength. Pearl the demon who is a powerful entity from someplace else, bound into servitude - but instead of being cold or vengeful goes knowingly to its doom, asking only for pity. And receives it! After reading Tolkien and dozens of classic fantasy and D&D novels, all this was such a breath of fresh air! The observation that Cotillion is a nice guy calls to mind another vital thing Erikson has done in this novel and the series. Most of the tropey fantasy roles in this world like assassins, wizards, priests, warriors and even heroes, villains and gods.. these are professions! They are just jobs. For most if not all of the characters _what_ they are does not at all equate to _who_ they are. The one thing I wish I had asked beforehand so I could have both your thoughts on it concerns the romance. The romance in Gardens often gets criticized for being underdeveloped, overly dramatic, too sudden. This mainly pertains the one between Paran and Tattersail, but Crokus and his two love interests as well. (Later books have some that receive criticism as well) Personally I have zero issues with them, and here's why. First off, this is not a romance novel and none of the characters involved are the Main Character of the book. So there is no reason for those romances to be centre stage. There's no reason to spend chapters on developing these relationships. Second, I think Erikson explores various _types_ of romantic relationships here. From a youthful crush to a maturing infatuation/obsession (Crokus with Challice and then Sorry), and a relationship grown out of shared trauma and forced dependency (Paran and Tattersail). Third, as with anything relating to Malazan, we have to carefully consider our sources and perspectives. What we learn from Crokus and Paran comes from the minds of two young men/boys who are utterly new to love, so it's little surprise their passion rises fast and burns bright. The witnesses in the Malazan army who describe Tattersails and Parans relationship have also just survived a devastating siege, naturally they exaggerate this love - they love and respect Tattersail, and they wish to live vicariously through her epic happiness. There are ways to get more out of these romances by digging into them, thinking about them. It's true, the romances are not gift-wrapped candycanes of pure sugary sweetness. But nothing in Malazan is. Would love to have your thoughts on it, or have you discuss it when other romances come up in following books! 🤓 Will try and post some Deadhouse specific questions at a later date 😉 For now thank you both so much, I am over the moon with joy watching this. 🙏
Thanks, Rob! It’s great to know that some of the true fans enjoyed this discussion. I love hearing your thoughts on the trope-busting with the elder races, and I completely agree. Regarding the romantic relationships, as you say, my initial reaction for GotM is similar to yours. The circumstances around them and the youth of most of those involved (Tattersail is hundreds of years old, but she’s also not one to deny herself a fleeting pleasure) explain how sudden they are. I personally don’t find them jarring, especially as they’re not the main show. I’m sure A.P. has thoughts on this, and we will discuss it in the future. In the meantime, thanks so much for your insights!
Thanks, it was very informative and helpful! Philip, you were the first person from whom I heard about the Malazan series at all. Thank you so much, I've now started this journey which is promising to be great. I read Gardens in the first days of the year, it was an appropriate read given the new year's celebration in the book.
Thanks, Igor! From your very informed comments on the channel, I’m going to predict that you’ll find Malazan a stimulating and fulfilling read. My very best wishes to you as you read the series, and always feel free to reach out with thoughts and questions on Malazan.
Gents...my hat is off to you both. Well done, I stayed engaged throughout the entire discussion. This helped shed some light on things I suspected my didn’t fully realize at the time - very enlightening 👍
We need more spoilers filled video's like this. No talking around "things", Malazan is complex enough without dodging essential information. As someone who read the books twice, (on a third re-listen) I just want to know which connections I missed, or see if someone else also found out :)
A.P. and I have spoiler-filled discussions, some with Steven Erikson and Ian Esslemont, of each book in The Malazan Book of the Fallen and Novels of the Malazan Empire on his channel, A Critical Dragon, except for The Crippled God and Assail, which we’ll be doing soon. The Malazan videos on my channel, some with Erikson and Esslemont, can be found in the Erikson and Esslemont playlists. Cheers!
@@MegaManatu Awesome! I just finished my reread of The Crippled God a few days ago, and I’m in the middle of Assail now. We’ll be having our chats about them soon, and hopefully these final chats will also include the authors.
Loved the video! Can't wait for the next ones! (Some spoilers for Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice below) . . . I am in love with how Erikson presents the subjectivity of the storyteller, it felt pretty obvious in Deadhouse Gates with getting Duiker's pov the whole time for the Chain of dogs but it's that pesky noble that presents things differently to Pormqual in the end. What hit me a lot harder was reading the beginning of Memories of Ice and changing my mind completely of the Imass. If in GotM I was "Oh, the poor dears, they had to resort to this terrible solution in order to survive the Jaghut, they had no choice, look at this tyrant, how much destruction he brings and how much death, Jaghut must be pretty bad. In DG we get to see a glimpse of a better image of them, but in the prologue of MoI... I ended up thinking "ugh, the Imass were the makers of their own doom, cruel and obstinate, killing without remorse all Jaghut (even children), and destroying their own habitat in the process." I am now curious how this opinion will change over the course of the next books! 😁
Thank you! Yes, it’s interesting how much the Imass have in common with us. Of course, essentially, they are us. All of the elder races speak to various aspects of humanity, but when I look at the Imass, I feel like I’m looking into a mirror. And while it’s true that they’ve done awful things as a species, on an individual level I like many of them. As usual, Erikson gives us complexity and makes us examine our assumptions.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy yup, totally agree, and what a sad mirror image was that for me! Also, I am liking the ones I have met so far (Tool, his sister, Pran Chole). In the end, this is like real life, I do like quite a lot of human beings, but humanity kind of disappointed me 😅...
I just finished GOTM, and in listening to this discussion I have realised how much I missed! Oh well, I guess there will be more to pick up on the eventual re-read sometime far in the future. Absolutely loving this Malazan content to keep me company whilst I make my way through this epic. Thank you, Philip!
Yes, another brilliant call by A.P.! It’s so wonderful how The Malazan Book of the Fallen introduces such interesting complexity to so many fantasy tropes. It’s both provocative and fun!
Just finished the book this morning and wow. Really different from every other fantasy book I've read so far. I love the layers and the "size" of the world created here. I was a bit scared going into the book, what with everyone telling me how dense and difficult the series is, but man is this good. It asks a lot of your brain, that is true, but the complexity is not too much. It's just enough. If you want a light read, a read where you don't have to use your brain, this is not really the book, but if you want to take your time and consider the implications of what you've just read, it's awesome. I love the idea of the different reading of the first scene when we meet Sorry and the Seer. You feel for the old lady, but when you stop and think, there is something VERY sinister about her. You can understand the actions of the soldier almost, even though at first you are horrified. And the circular element of Paran in the prologue wanting to be a soldier (and WJ commenting that he'll grow out of it) and in the epilogue achieving this and smiling. It's the little things like these that make this an amazing book.
I’m so glad you enjoyed Gardens of the Moon! Those circular elements you mentioned run through the entire series, and Erikson includes a ton of foreshadowing and parallels, so there’s plenty for an inquisitive mind to explore. I would love to hear your thoughts on Deadhouse Gates if/when you read it - it’s the one where I realized this series could be something very special. Cheers!
Thanks for arranging this, it was really enjoyable to listen to. I just finished Gardens of the Moon yesterday and this discussion really helped bring some things together as well as the meta discussion. My mind is filled with so many strings, I'm still getting a bit lost thinking about everything that happened. I missed the significance in the interaction between Sorry and the old lady, not realizing she went as far as possessing her. And I wouldn't have realized the true identities of Shadowthrone and the rope on my own! Both really great points thinking back on it now. Lastly, the imagery I got during this book at some points will stay with me for a long time. Paran's new connection with the hounds and seeing the giant wagon with it's chained slaves, Raest's battle with the dragons. The more I think back on the book, the more I like it.
Thanks so much for leaving this comment! It’s really helpful for us to know that our discussions are useful and enjoyable for you. Talking about these books, and books in general, on BookTube has deepened my understanding and appreciation of them immeasurably. I hope you’ll continue to enjoy the series!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Yeah, I was excited to finish up the book just so I could watch this spoiler talk which didn't disappoint. It helped in that you guys spoke of the deeper meanings and themes surrounding the events because my first read contained too much information to process let alone really understanding Rake's forced actions in trying to save his dying people for example. It provides some insight that only second or third reads could provide, at least to me. Thanks again!
@@Jonny01Boy This is my first reread, and I am most definitely picking up much more than I did the first time. I wish I had been connected to BookTube back then, but better late than never!
@@Jonny01Boy For sure! Talking with A.P. is always fun and illuminating, and, even though he’s down to earth and gracious, I sometimes still can’t believe I’ve spoken with Steven Erikson about his books.
Sorry, Mike! This one was for the veterans, who are so pumped up about this series that they could talk about it every day for the next two years. I noticed they’ve already started on your Discord! A.P. and I do have a different schedule, though, since we’re reading one book a month. We’ll keep having a non-spoiler discussion followed by a spoiler filled one, but I figure we’ll get mostly veterans watching until perhaps some of your viewers who are new to the books catch up. At the same time, I’ll be talking up your read along and, of course, participating in it. In fact, it looks like I’ll soon be having the chance to have a chat with Steven Erikson, and I’m already planning to mention how amazing the read along promises to be. Wish me luck!
Tehol is my favorite character in the series, in fact! I’m sure I’ll have loads to say about him when we get to Midnight Tides. And, I’m looking forward to what A.P. has to say about him. Thanks for watching!
I might have more than one comment on this: Kruppe is one embodiment of how to follow Whiskeyjacks advice in the prologue while still having an impact. Quick Ben tries to do the same. So do Tehol and Bugg. And Pust. It’s a recurring theme, through different mechanisms and strategies.
Great insight! It’s interesting how certain characters are skilled at lying low while very much being in the game. Not coincidentally, perhaps, these characters tend to be among my favorites in the series, such as Tehol and Quick Ben. With their cleverness, they have a certain charisma, and that’s one of the things I like about Kruppe, who has mastered the art of being underestimated.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Yes, Kruppe and Pust are my two favorite characters in the series, which is why Toll the Hounds stands as my favorite book by Erikson.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I think in Toll Kruppe laments that he is trying to be direct and give advice clearly but they probably aren't taking him seriously.
This is (I think) is my 4th re-read and I'm still noticing new things even though I'm only 75 pages in so far. What jumped out at me this time around was the context of the prologue: while it is unclear what exactly is happening in Malaz City, Ganoes could be saying that he wants to be a soldier while witnessing a violent suppressive military action. That along with his comments about Dassem really made me view him differently, though I was admittedly into all kinds of morbid things when I was about his age. I also appreciate that the fate of the garrison is left ambiguous and that there were "bonus" villages destroyed - as you both noted. At around that same time and after meeting Ganoes, Lorn asks the captain to brief her on "the nobility's present inroads on the Imperial command structure." Sure sounds ... ominous. On a separate note, I'm wondering when in the cultural development of the Imass Raest becomes the tyrant. I have trouble imagining tyranny without civilization, and given that the Imass seemed to have been some kind of hunter-gatherer people, I find myself wondering whether Raest could be considered a kind of Prometheus character. Great discussion and I can't wait for the next one!
Oooh, cool point about Raest potentially being a Promethean character! Also, yes, I completely agree with you about Ganoes Paran romanticizing a soldier’s life - such a contrast to Whiskeyjack’s weariness. This is repeated in the book’s next section as the young woman who becomes Sorry is watching the Malazan cavalry, only Rigga is less gentle about bursting her bubble. Yes, I caught that bit of foreshadowing regarding the imminent future of the nobility this time too, and it will, of course, affect the Paran family directly. In a recent interview, I heard Steven Erikson say that after Ganoes is saved by Oponn, the person who dies in his place as a result is none other than Felisin. Talk about foreshadowing! Thanks so much for watching!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I have a feeling my first re-read will be punctuated by many 'ohhhh's' and 'ahhh of course's' haha. Thanks to you both for doing these they really add a lot to the experience for me and I'm sure many others.
Just a heads up, I know some minor details might get convoluted on what is revealed when and where but it is not explicitly stated that Kellenvad and Dancer ascended until deadhouse gates
Just finished book one and lots of things are building for a fun story. I’m excited to keep reading just hoping I don’t miss too many important details. I totally missed the heavy hinting at Shadowthrones identity. Makes me wonder what other crucial hinting or details I missed.
What I’ve reconciled myself to is the fact that I’m going to miss things and see new things on every read. These books are just that rich. That being the case, I try to enjoy the things I catch and not worry about those I miss. And there are lots of great videos where people point out things I’ve missed, so that’s fun too!
Whoops! It will be spelled out clearly early in Deadhouse Gates. It’s one of those things that probably seems more obviously hinted at only on the second read.
I like this inversion of Tattersail x Lorn, in the dinner scene... That Lorn is the "Empire's tool" and how it came to be that Lorn, later, names Onos T'oolan "Tool".
That dinner is a powerful scene. I felt sorry for both Lorn and Tattersail, and Dujek was so astute in using humor to change the tone. Excellent insights into human psychology!
A bit late to the party, but I just finished GoTM and maybe I can help unravel the massacre situation. Cotillion for the wall of text. Oops, I meant sorry. I delved too deep into a minor plot point that doesn't matter all that much. Gerrom (the market town Sorry and her father sold to) was the place with the pidgeons, but it wasn't a barracks/garrison, it was the Imperial Constabulary. So something like an empire run local police/record office/government building I think. It's not the place where Sorry signed up, just the place where Lorn was most likely to find info on her. The town wasn't massacred though apparently. The people in the Constabulary were killed and the papyrus records were made to fall to oily dust upon touch. Everyone abandoned the town when they discovered the scene. "The dark bloom of sorcery was a stain few cared to examine too closely." The villagers saw what happened, were terrified, then with nobody from the empire present to sort things out they fled from what they likely saw as a cursed town. They left a trail of dropped belongings as they fled that Ganoes remarked upon when he rode into town. Sorry actually signed up in an unnamed backwater town. When the Staff Sergeant is thinking about how bad his day is he lays it all out. The local captain (who Lorn talks to) went out to secure the scene of the slaughter, Lorn arrived by Warren and headed to the coast shortly afterward, then Sorry arrived and he recruits her. So Sorry and Lorn kind of passed each other like ships in the night. The fun part it she was probably there for at least a few days since they aren't going to send recruits off individually as they come in. That's also why I'm pretty sure that town was never massacred. They needed the local military recruitment structure intact for Sorry to get to the 2nd. As far as the three villages that were massacred by the empire to cover things up... I have no idea. Either I missed something (very possible given the series), AP misremembered things, or it's from a later book. Quick Ben says "The Nineteenth Regiment of the Eighth Cavalry were all killed, even their horses. A league’s worth of coastline settlements needed repopulating." The captain tells Lorn in ch1 "The carnage stretches half a league from the sea, Adjunct, and a quarter-league inland." I'm guessing the difference may come from QB describing a line while the captain was using a rectangle. Or it could of course be some unreliable narration. To me "coastline settlements" refers to a few different groups of huts stretched out along the good bits of land for building. We know Rigga and Sorry lived in a cluster of 12 huts for example. Those settlements are the kind of thing that could eventually all become one city if they were to grow and fill in the gaps. When telling Tattersail about Sorry Kalam says "Something ugly happened there at around the same time. It’s been buried pretty deep, but the Adjunct became involved, and a Claw came in her wake and silenced damn near everyone in the city guard who might have talked." So the Claw killed the city guard, but not the entire population. So the way I see it the Hounds killed almost everyone. The plan was to just take a girl and kill nobody, but Ammanas is kind of crazy. Cotillion saying "Must you complicate things?" when the Hounds were summoned backs that up. If they had simply kidnapped a single girl, there's no way Lorn would have ever known a thing. After this point they don't appear to be too worried about witnesses since Cotillion only decide to use Sorry when Ammanas uses his name. Ammanas wanted "Something to gnaw on Laseen’s mind" so he seemed cool with word getting out. Taking Sorry because she knows their names seems contradictory to that, but it may have been compassion on Cotillion's part. "The man sighed. 'With what’s happening up the road right now, well, you’d be questioned. Unpleasantly.'" Tattersail later describes to Ganoes that "Tayschrenn would shred your brain with truth-seeking sorcery." The empire would probably be equally rough on Sorry because "Needs must when the devil drives". Another indicator is Cotillion insists on saving Sorry's father for no reason that I can see if not compassion, not to mention naming her Sorry. They then split up and Ammanas goes to Gerrom to fix the mess he's made by drawing attention to their mole. Cotillion is the responsible one and only told him to destroy the records, so that's all he does. They were the main target while killing the Constabulary people was just a bonus. He leaves the town alive because again, he doesn't seem to care too much if word gets out. It only matters if Lorn can find out who the girl is. Sorry heads to the unnamed town where Lorn is appearing by Warren shortly. Why didn't Sorry head to a random faraway recruiter by Warren to remove all traces? I'm not sure, but I'm thinking Cotillion was just sloppy. He even says later "the plan was flawed." Also we needed a plot. I don't think the empire killed off any innocents to keep it a secret. Making soldiers with working tongues murder civilians doesn't seem like a sound way to keep a secret, and the Claw agrees. They would have had to kill the entire 1100 man patrol Ganoes was a part of. If they had done that though, they would have surely slaughtered everyone at the town where Sorry was recruited, which we know they didn't do.
I have to contradict an apparent fact that Dr Canavan is stating. The 18,739 citizens of Pale killed were not slaughtered simply "over trade deals." The text of the book states there was a violent history between Pale and the Moranth. As shown: "Allies. They’re claiming their hour of blood. At the end of that hour there would be a score thousand fewer survivors among the citizens of Pale. *The long savage history between the neighboring peoples* was about to have the scales of retribution balanced. By the sword. Shedunul’s mercy, hasn’t there been enough?" Erikson, Steven. Gardens of the Moon: Book One of The Malazan Book of the Fallen (p. 57). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. " *He knew something of the history of grim enmity between the Moranth and the citizens of the once Free City of Pale.* Contested trade routes, *two mercantile powers at each other’s throat. And Pale won more often than not.* At long last it seemed that the black-armored warriors from beyond the western mountains, whose faces remained hidden behind the chitinous visors on their helms and who spoke in clicks and buzzes, were evening the score." Erikson, Steven. Gardens of the Moon: Book One of The Malazan Book of the Fallen (p. 77). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. and finally, “Eighteen thousand seven hundred and thirty-nine souls departed in the purge of Pale. *One for each Moranth confirmed as a victim of Pale’s history of enmity toward us.* " Erikson, Steven. Gardens of the Moon: Book One of The Malazan Book of the Fallen (p. 191). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
You make a solid case there, Glenn! There’s definitely a sense of a history of mutual violence in those excerpts. I think A.P.’s more important point remains, though - which is that Malazans allowed their allies to commit a retributive slaughter of civilians after the hostilities were over, a war crime if ever there was one. In other words, the Malazans, as much as we might like many of them individually, are not always the “good guys.” I also have my doubts about the accuracy of the number 18,739. When Erikson is that exact, he’s often making a point about how we construct narratives around “facts” that are more questionable than we pretend. Thanks for the excellent comment!
i loved larseens tactics for this book - either the malazan win an easy fight or Dujek gets set up for the next part - there is no way for the empire to lose. she is a much better empress than she gets credit for imo.
I agree that Laseen deserves more credit, or perhaps some measure of understanding. To me, given Kellanved’s personality and his Faustian quest for knowledge, along with his probable insanity, Laseen’s coup was almost inevitable. From the beginning, she ran the empire in some important ways. Also, as I mentioned in the video, as the nominal head of the machine that is the empire, she has few to zero choices, and the choices that are available are often bad, worse, or worst.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy the other part of that is the misdirection angle. How angry is shadow throne really? What angles is he actually working? Was it all part of his plan all along? There is no way he didn't see lanseen's actions coming.
@@joshholmes1372 True! Part of me thinks Kellanved wanted to be rid of the responsibilities and move on to more realms of knowledge and power, so he might have “allowed” his “assassination”.
Enjoying these talks! I didn't realize Shadowthrone was Kellenvad until it's explicitly said in a later book (House of Chains?) though so would have been a spoiler for me had i not been ahead of book 1.
I’m glad you’re enjoying the videos! The fact that Shadowthrone is Kellanved is explicitly stated by Fiddler in Deadhouse Gates, but you’re right that it’s after Gardens of the Moon. I saw Erikson asked about it during an interview, and he said he assumed people could figure it out in Gardens of the Moon. However, it’s not explicitly stated there, and it’s easy to forget on a reread just how much thought it required the first time around to catch stuff like that. Thanks for the comment!
To me Parans & Tattersails "deaths" were a highlight. I like it when everything doesn't go according to plan or what I'm expecting to happen. Only in books though (Hah). And I certainly didn't make a connection between emperor and shadowthrone. Ammo for reread in the distant future.
Kruppe reminds me of a combination of Tom Bombadil and Lu-Tze from Pratchett's Discworld. He seems like such a pointless goof at first. I loved how he was portrayed and am going to keep an eye on him 100% as the series goes on
Hope I'm still in time for your talk with AP about Deadhouse Gates .. although it's hard to come up with questions about this book without spoiling anything. So much happens in this book that deserves to be experienced fresh - and so much is buildup for stories in other books! I'm just gonna ramble a bit, maybe something is worth picking AP's brain about.. *just in case.. possible Spoilers for Deadhouse Gates * . . . . . . A major theme seems to be displacement - or more generally, migration. Individuals like Felisin, Icarium, Apsalar and Heboric are lost - displaced physically, mentally and/or spiritually. Groups like the Whirlwind revolutionaries and the Chain of Dogs experience the same en masse. This is explored in a wide variety and depth. Could you say which specific storyline resonated the most with you? Also, we are introduced to Apt the aptorian demon. The Malazan books present demons as very interesting beings. Scary, powerful and otherworldly certainly, but still highly relatable. As with Pearl the demon asking if it was pitied in GotM, Apt evokes some strong emotions as she cares for the child Panek and as she tries to protect those she travels with. Also hilarious, but that comes later if I recall correctly 😅 Apt is something of a Lovecraftian horror, something from Out Of This World pulled in to do someone's bidding - definitely a theme there. Do we already know enough about who summoned her and why to talk about that? She operates as a free agent mostly, and the relationship with her summoner seemed to be one of mutual respect. Also very interesting. You'll certainly talk about the Chain of Dogs.. and there's so much to talk about. That on its own can be discussed for hours. One specific thing.. the actual dogs, Bent and Roach. Are they reincarnations of the Hounds of Shadow, incarnations or avatars of the Wolves of War, independent Ascendant dogs? Something else? Might be a fun one. 😉 Hope I made it in time, and if not I'm sure your discussion will be awesome anyway. Looking forward to the video!
Thanks, Rob! We’re scheduled to chat this Friday, with the videos (spoiler free and spoilers) coming out Saturday. The spoiler video actually might come out later, but I’ll be presenting your questions during that part of the discussion. Thanks so much!
41:30 finished GOTM yesterday. My mind is blown. Didn’t make the connection at all and this was a big question for me of what happened to the emperor after going into the house thing and the true nature of cotillion and shadow throne… is this a huge spoiler? Bc it seems huge. But was I supposed to figure it out by now?
I think, as AP mentioned (if memory serves - it’s been a while), it’s definitely possible from Gardens of the Moon to connect the dots. It’s made very explicit early in Deadhouse Gates, so in the grand scheme it doesn’t feel very spoilery, but I can see where someone who’s read only Gardens of the Moon and didn’t notice (which seems to be a lot of people) would feel like it’s a spoiler. You’re definitely in good company!
@@valliyarnl Thank you! I’ve added a spoiler warning in a pinned comment because you are definitely not the first person to comment on this. My best to you for your Malazan read!
The soldiers at the barrack were killed by Sorry / the Rope in order to cover her own tracks. As for the pigeons, Steve said that he doesn't quite recall why he used them, but one of his favorit stories is Robert E Howard's' Pigeons from Hell and that he remebmers listening to a Pretenres song where that [hrase is actually used and he wondered if the singer has read Pigeons from Hell, because that's such an obscure short story. He said he can't remember exactly why he chose to use them and that they don't fit with the rest of hte Malazan world. But yes, it was Sorry who killed them, knowing that Laseen would send her people to investigate, in an attempt to hide her trail. I always find using a gender difficult when it comes to Sorry, because Sorry is a girl, but Sorry is the Rope in this instance, and the rope is male, so is it Cotillion hiding his tracks or is it Sorry hiding her tracks? :D
Thank you! That clarifies the scene nicely. I know what you mean about Sorry/The Rope. I guess I think of Sorry as female, but I ascribe her actions (especially the lethal ones) to Cotillion. Also, it’s good to know the pigeons are a sort of random element in there! Much appreciated!
On the dead soldiers with the pigeons: if memory serves, Ganoes finds that they had all died of strangulation. I have always taken this as an implication that the Rope was involved. It's not hard evidence, but *shrug.* As you rightly point out, like many things in this series, there are no hard answers. And ain't that fun!
That’s a great point about the strangulation- thanks! There was something about Ganoes’ reaction that made me think he believed the soldiers were silenced by the empire, and then he immediately disliked Topper, which made me think he believed the Claw could have been involved. But you’re absolutely right that the strangulation speaks of Cotillion’s work, and it would be a tough feat to strangle so many soldiers at once, unless perhaps you’re an assassin god!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I was listening to a read-along podcast (The Duke and Duchess bookclub) and they noted that Topper was involved in the assassination of noble families, some of whom were probably Ganoes' friends. Figures young Paran would have a bias against him :P
I honestly don’t know if Brandon Sanderson has read Malazan. His approach to writing is very different from Erikson’s in many ways, but I’m aware that Sanderson reads books by writers whose styles are different from his. My guess is that any similarity between Sanderson and Erikson is due to the genre and perhaps some common influences.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I'm rereading the Malazan books, like you. The first time, years ago, I got up to book 6. In the reread, GotM is a much calmer, more enjoyable experience and I feel much more immersed. Don't have to work so hard. Now I'm looking forward to the rest of the series. Maybe I'll even complete it this time.
Do the spoilers pertain only to GotM, Philip, or are things broadened out to cover the whole of the decalogy? If the latter, I'll be watching this until after I have read the whole thing...
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Watched it. Really excellent. The mark of a great writer is that he sparks brilliance in his readers... This was a very illuminating conversation. I hadn't consciously realized it when I read the book, although I did register it subliminally: the structural effect the bleeding of Chaos has on the narrative... Wonderful, jaw-dropping stuff. Both to have written it and for someone to have picked up on it. I cannot wait for 'Deadhouse Gates'. (Four hundred pages into 'The Bonehunters' now, another winner, as far as I'm concerned.)
@@JohanHerrenberg I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion! I love A.P.’s interpretation of the influence of chaos in the flashback portion of the cataclysm at Pale. And I agree that great writers induce great thoughts in their readers. This too is a form of entertainment, though one that requires exercise to become truly enjoyable. An analogous situation for me is playing tennis. I’ve always enjoyed it, but the better I get at it, the more enjoyable it has become, particularly as I understand how to hit certain shots or apply certain kinds of spin to the ball. The same goes for a deeper appreciation of writing that truly great writers can offer.
Hallo, i am from Greece, and as far as im concerned this book series is not translated in our language. I would like tk know if the books are readable for readers who do not speak English as mother tongue, and with no experience in reading fantasy in English. Thank you !!
Hello, Nasos! In my opinion, this is one of the greatest fantasy series ever, and I recommend it highly if you find that you love fantasy. Having said that, I will also say that it might not be the first series I would recommend to someone new to fantasy. If you’re looking for challenging books that support lots of deep analysis, this could be the right series. Malazan is also entertaining, but it’s fairly demanding in terms of the prose and the complexity of the plot, especially for the first several books. I hope you will read it someday! However, if you’re looking for something that is perhaps less complex or that is more purely entertaining, Malazan should not be your first fantasy series. There are many fun series I could recommend, so let me know if you’d like me to do that. I’m heading for bed now, but if I see a message from you tomorrow, I’ll answer. Thanks for watching!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Well, thank you for the tips. In fact I am not new to the genre, i have read A song of Ice and Fire, Lord of the rings, Harry Potter, etc. I enjoy reading, but I have read only books in Greek, and im afraid my English is not so good for the Malazan series, which is said to be quite demanding for ths reader.
@@nasosgerontopoulos5267 I agree that Malazan is more complex than the others you mentioned. Its complexity isn’t so much the language as the very different perspective involved. There is no hero or group of main characters. Instead, as my friend A.P. suggested, it’s more like telling the story of World War 2. There are three different “theaters” of action in Malazan, or three big plots that gradually converge into one story. The characters appear as needed to support this overarching story, which features compassion as a major theme. It’s vast and beautiful, but it takes time to feel like you know what’s going on. I suppose you could try Gardens of the Moon for a taste, but I wish there was a good Greek translation!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Appreciate your help my friend, but i checked right now if i could get a preview of the first book, and i have to andmit i struggled to read this ; as it is literature , i can't handle all the descriptions and the language used. Anyway, hope it gets translated in Greek some day. Thank you again !
41:10 huge spoiler from the series that I didn't have the time to pause the video and avoid it. I loved the discussion but that was bad. You should give more time before spoil something that big
my only gripe witg you guys....your calling of the brotherhood of military first responders etc and then comparing to your dnd groups not even frakking close. you have no idea lol
