Gelid Solutions GP Ultimate 15W/mK Thermal Pad How much better?

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How concerned are We about heat on Our M.2 NVMe Drives? Now We've had a chance to Test 14 different Heatsinks. When We get to the point, I'll show You the List to show You the Results. What We need to look at now is this is number 3 of the Thermal Pads We've Tested after We've gone through 14 Heatsinks, We came up with two top M.2NVMe Heatsinks. One, the Acidalie M.2 NVMe Heatsink and this is on the Supermicro Dual M.2 NVMe Adapter. And number two, the Jeyi iGlacier8 M.2 NVMe Heatsink. And We've had amazing Results with this one. Better than I expected. This iGlacier8 Heatsink We could only test only the Motherboard, Gigabyte TRX40 Designare. So that's where We're going to Test again. We're going to Test this one first. Because this one has a smooth surface. Whereas on the Acidalie, We have a rough surface. And that one We're going to Test second. And the Results on the Acidalie, where We got Our best numbers were originally not on the Motherboard but on the Supermicro Dual M.2 NVMe Adapter. Whereas the best Results We got with the iGlacier8 Heatsink were on the Motherboard. So We're going to do both of these on the Motherboard. And these are Our two best M.2 NVMe Heatsinks. And this Video is going to be about, Answering Subscribers Questions with the Gelid GP UL Ultimate cutting edge Thermal Pad. It's going to be 1mm in thickness. We're going to have to cut it to the size that We need to fit which is 20mm x 80mm. And it has a Thermal Conductivity rating of 15 W/mK. Compared to the Thermalright and Thermal Grizzly Thermal Pads. Links of Products from Video Listed below.
1. Gelid Solutions GP-Ultimate 15W- Thermal Pad 90x50x1.0mm. Excellent Heat Conduction, Ideal Gap Filler. Easy Installation.
amzn.to/3A6vaN3
2. Thermalright Thermal Pad 12.8 W/mK, 85x45x1mm, Non Conductive Heat Resistance, Extreme Odyssey Silicone Thermal Pads for PC Laptop Heatsink/GPU/CPU/LED Cooler (1mm)
amzn.to/3tbS04e
3. Thermopad Thermal Grizzly Minus Pad 8 - Silicone, Self-Adhesive, Thermally Conductive Thermal Pad - Conducts Heat and Cools The Heating Elements of The Computer or Console (120 × 20 × 1,0 mm
amzn.to/3HMtL0v
4. JEYI M.2 HeatSink, Heavy Duty Aluminum Convective Heat Sink, Passive Heat Sinks with Fins, FinsCold iGlacier8 (35℃ Decrease Max)
amzn.to/3tbi8fK
5. Acidalie M.2 2280 SSD Heatsink, Double - Aluminum Heat Sink for PCIE M.2 NVME SSD or SATA M.2 SSD with Silicone Thermal Pad
amzn.to/3zNd2Yk
6. WD Black SN850 - Gen4 PCIe, M.2 2280, 3D NAND, Up to 7,000 MB/s - WDS100T1X0E
amzn.to/3AudMke
7. Gigabyte TRX40 Designare Motherboard for Threadripper III
amzn.to/3xB6MzW
8. Gigabyte GC-4XM2G4 (Aorus Gen4 AIC Adaptor, Full PCIe 4.0, Advanced Thermal Solution for PCIe 4.0 SSD)
amzn.to/3tet1gC
9. Supermicro Dual M.2 NVMe Adapter
amzn.to/2VGNQD6
• Supermicro AOC-SLG3-2M...
10. Dual M.2 NVMe PCIe Adapters
• Dual M.2 NVMe PCIe Ada...
11. Seagate Firecuda 520 2TB Performance Internal Solid State Drive SSD PCIe Gen4 X4 NVMe 1.3 for Gaming PC Gaming Laptop Desktop (ZP2000GM3A002)
amzn.to/3q0sXiD
12. Seagate FireCuda 530 4TB Internal Solid State Drive - M.2 PCIe Gen4 ×4 NVMe 1.4, Transfer speeds up to 7300 MB/s, 3D TLC NAND, 5100 TBW, 1.8M MTBF, and 3-Year Rescue Services (ZP4000GM3A013)
amzn.to/3CFtWZb
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4 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 149

@alexclarke3534 2 года назад

I changed my 3070Ti memory pads to gelid ultimates and dropped the temps literally 20C. They’re great

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi alex clarke, Welcome! Now that's significant enough to get excited about! Wonder what the Thermal Conductivity Rating was of the stock Pads. Obviously 20% different! And once installed, set and forget! Thanks for Sharing!

@PlayingItWrong Год назад

I feel like other than gen 5 SSD temps are solved, but your work validates the thermal solutions for other devices too. When i get my raspi5, i can trust your finding for thermal pads despite the circumstances being different.

@BuildOrBuy Год назад

Hello PlayingItWrong, Welcome! Very good Point! Appreciate Your Comments! At least You have a starting point to know what to expect!

@maxhughes5687 2 года назад

I like the way you test the drives. I boot once and run with everything already warmed up all day long. I'm not going to wait until tomorrow morning to clone a 2TB drive to a 2TB drive.

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi Max Hughes, Just now getting through Comments going backwards. That last Video took way longer than expected due to shadows and lighting. Anyway, Agreed! Computer should be ready when you are! Thanks for Watching!

@hndfhngtool-assistedspeedr2128 2 года назад

Thermal pad + heatsink on the bottom always makes a difference! Whether it's an m.2 drive, a GPU or a CPU. The PCBs do heat up because of the chips on top. So if you take away the heat from PCB, you're allowing the chips to transfer more heat to the PCB. Double sided cooling for the win!

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi hndfhng Tool-Assisted Speedruns (TAS), Welcome! Very good point! Glad You brought that up! Based on PCIe 3.0 and PCIe 4.0 Motherboards We've worked with, every Motherboard is using a Thermal Solution on one side, the top side for M.2 NVMe PCIe Drives. On PCIe 5.0 Motherboards, We see Dual Sided Thermal Solutions for same. Only Add in Cards with Heatsinks have historically used Dual Sided Thermal Solutions. Those Details matter! Appreciate Your Comments! Thanks for Sharing!

@syntax2001 2 года назад

Great tests! Here's some math that shows the potential of better (higher thermal conductivity) pads. The area that the pad covers is roughly 0.08 m x 0.022 m = 0.00176 m². Let's assume a pad thickness of 1 mm = 0.001 m. The actual thermal resistance of a pad with 5 W/mK is then: 0.001 m / (0.00176 m² x 5 W/mK) = 0.114 K/W Let's assume a power consumption (i.e. waste heat) of 10 W from the SSD (quite a lot for an SSD). Then we have an increase of the temp of the SSD, solely caused by the pad of 0.114 W x 10 W = 1.14 K If we would move to a pad with 15 W/mK, this would be reduced to a third: 0.38 K. That's an improvement of about 0.76 K. Not that much. So, pads with 5 W/mK are simply sufficient for SSD cooling in my opinion. (If the thickness is/can be less than 1 mm it gets even more irrelevant.)

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi Michael Schmidt, Welcome! Just now seeing Your message! Getting caught up! Glad You brought that up! Keeping in mind, where this journey started Answering Questions about M.2 NVMe Heatsinks and Thermal Pads on either Dual Adapters or Quad cards that do not have Heatsinks. We're trying to keep to stock defaults as the products shipped and as We encountered issues with each for various reasons from using single Sided or double Sided M.2 NVMe PCIe Drives! Well stated! Or as We like to say, Keep it simple and make it work! Yes, details matter! Appreciate Your Comments!

@syntax2001 2 года назад

@@BuildOrBuy Hi Gill! Oh yes, details matter! One clarification to my math according to my tests: The area that the pad covers is not the most important fact - the area that the pad covers over the hotspots (were the heat originates) is most important. And those hotspots are the controller, the flashs and DRAM cache and those hotspots together have a surface area of roughly half of the surface of the SSD/pad. This consideration changes the results by a factor of 2. So, when the relevant area is about 0.00088 m² (instead of 0.00176 m²), the resistance of a 1 mm pad with 5 W/mK is 0.227 K/W. For a 10 W SSD we get then as temp increase: 0.227 K/W x 10 W = 2.27 K And for a 15 W/mK pad we could reduce that to 0.75 K; an improvement of 1.5 K Still not that much. At least as important is to choose the optimal thickness of the pad: as thick as necessary, but as thin as possible.

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi@@syntax2001, Much Appreciated! Interesting to note the thicknesses of Stock Thermal Pads included with Heatsink Devices. Based on Single Sided vs Double Sided, not all account for the Sandwich thickness in a wrap around Enclosure accordingly! BTW: Have You seen this: "ASRock Unveils Blazing M.2 PCIe Gen 5 SSD Cooler With Active Fan Heatsink, Compatible With Z790, X670E & B650 Motherboards" wccftech.com/asrock-blazing-m-2-pcie-gen-5-ssd-cooler-active-fan-heatsink-compatible-with-z790-x670e-b650-motherboards/amp/ Also addresses the 2280 and 2580 formats. Fascinating Details! ASRock Blazing M.2 PCIe Gen 5 SSD Cooler "ASRock > Blazing M.2 Gen5 Fan-Heatsink" www.asrock.com/mb/spec/product.us.asp?Model=Blazing%20M.2%20Gen5%20Fan-Heatsink ASRock is the 1st Motherboard Manufacturer We're currently aware of creatively addressing M.2 NVMe PCIe 5.0 Heat issues! Furthermore, that Heatsink is included with the ASRock X670E Taichi Motherboard! Working on that Video now!

@ughhhh6953 2 года назад

I've really enjoyed these thermal pad and m.2 heatsink videos. I stumbled across your channel while looking for cooling solutions for a Samsung 980 Pro that's being used in a fully passive Streacom FC9 build, and subsequently bought the Acidalie and Iglacier8 to try out. The Acidalie didn't fit so I stuck with the Jeyi in my system for the past month, but being fully passive with no real airflow, temps would always stabilize at about 60-63 degrees C. Ultimately, the big hunk of metal ended up working more as a heat stabilizer. I played around with different thermal pads too, to no effect. This weekend I tried shoving a 3mm thick flattened heatpipe between the fins, and bending the pipe to attach to the inside of the front panel of the case (4mm aluminum). Now temps are maxing out at 46 C. My takeaway from all this, and the portion that might be useful to others, is that with these thermal pad tests the bottleneck is most likely the ability of the m.2 heatsink to dissipate heat. You can have the best thermal pad there is, but if the heat it's transferring cant be effectively dissipated, then it just goes right back to the source.

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi Ugh hhh, Welcome! Thank you very Much! Makes Our work all the more enjoyable! Passive Cooling is amazingly better from what We've tested and far exceeds Active Cooling for an M.2 NVMe PCIe Drive. Go figure. Yes, You're right, the dissipation matters greatly. I'm sure We will be doing more of those Tests in the future once We get adequate PCIe 5.0 M.2 NVMe Drives and better Thermal Solutions available to Us! Appreciate Your Comments!

@robertweekes5783 2 года назад

34:00 conclusion ? I thought this video was focusing on the performance of Gelid thermal pads but you were mostly talking about heatsinks at the end. Confusing video. Some comparison charts would help

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi Robert Weekes, Welcome! Great Question! Just now seeing Your Comment! Some RU-vid messages do not go to an email. We have to periodically double check by going into Managing Channel Comments section. This was part of Our Videos on M.2 NVMe PCIe X16 Quad and X8 Dual M.2 NVMe PCIe adapters when the Questions We're being asked were about Heatsinks for those Add in cards that did not include a Heatsink. Then Questions arouse about Thermal Pads. And here We are! We have Tested 3 Thermal Pads on the top 2 or 3 M.2 NVMe PCIe Heatsinks. We Tested the Gelid, Thermalright Extreme and Thermal Grizzly Minus 8 Thermal Pads with respect to Thermal Conductivity values. The Gelid are great but fragile for Our Purposes of reusing them since they are a clay like material. Silicon although having a lower Thermal Conductivity rating is more durable for reuse. We have a Video about the Results and I'm trying to locate it! We have over 250 Videos right now! That Result was cut from this Video! Bummer! Here's a link to the Chart in previous Video minus this Gelid Result. Hope that helps! Thanks for Asking! Thermalright Extreme Odyssey Thermal Pad - Do You need it? ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ko_ezE111wE.html

@jameswubbolt7787 2 года назад

Great job.look forward to your next video.

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi james wubbolt, Excellent! Trying to Answer lots of Question in this Video! Let's hope that covers as many as We can! Always a balance of information and time. Yes, on to the next Video! Appreciate Your Comments and Support!

@lawshadow2011 2 года назад

Well done made videos ive made an order for the JEYI FinsCold iGlacier8 2 x planning to put a 40mm fan as well as having case airflow. 12 bucks a piece on aliexpress and free shipping. According to their reviews LOTS of it people are very happy with this cooler. I like the method of testing you done thank you for testing these coolers and thermal pads subbed!

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi lawshadow2011, Welcome! Outstanding! Appreciate Your Comments! This is definitely the best of 14! We were definitely amazed! Let Us know how the 40mm Fan helps, if any. We were surprised to see, based on designs of each to learn, Passive Cooling was better than Active Cooling! We learned enough to know there is still room for more improvements! Looking forward to the next round of M.2 NVMe PCIe Heatsink Tests as Our options and technologies mature! Keep Us Posted on Your Results! Nice price! Heat is not Our Friend! Success on Your Installation!

@lawshadow2011 2 года назад

@@BuildOrBuy Thank you for the kind words il let you know if a 40mm fan will help but thats when RTX4080 and Raptor lake are ready to purchase then il use the m2.ssd hopefully in 3 months. Keep up the good work sir.

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi@@lawshadow2011, Absolutely! Appreciate Your Feedback! Thanks for Sharing!

@rusTORK Год назад

Nice tip with Win + PrintScreen, i didn't know that. Usually i use Windows buffer to store image and then paste in Paint to edit and save. Here is tip in return (in case you didn't known): You may attach small neodim magnet (salvage it from old CD\DVD drive) to keep screw on screwdriver and then screw a drive inside PC. It will not fall from screwsriver. An when you don't need it - just remove magnet from screwdriver.

@BuildOrBuy Год назад

Hi rusTORK, Welcome! Glad We could help! Reciprocity! Appreciate Your Tip! Thanks for Watching!

@bezumnumax 2 года назад

Hello. Thanks for your reviews! After looking at your reviews, I was really surprised. I just can't get my head around the fact that good passive heatsink like JEYI FinsCold iGlacier8 and ACIDALIE can be better than active heatsink withe fans. And you proved it with your tests. Bravo! It would be interesting to see if you somehow managed to install fans on these heatsinks ACIDALIE and iGlacier8 and get test results under these conditions, If it's feasible at all. Could you do the same test a curious radiator with an interesting design and active cooling ElecGear M11?

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi bezumnumax, Welcome! Appreciate Your Comments! Had no idea that would become such a big deal. We learned a lot doing that too! Possibly an I/O Card Slot Fan if room permits. Something easy to install and easy to replace. We'll keep that in ind for a future Test. Working on several other Videos right now for Thunderbolt and Motion Capture! Stay Tuned!

@hndfhngtool-assistedspeedr2128 2 года назад

I wonder how the new Thermal Grizzly Minus Pad EXTREME would perform against Gelid Ultimate? The new Grizzly pads are VERY expensive and not widely available online yet.

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi hndfhng Tool-Assisted Speedruns (TAS), Great Question! Thermal Conductivity Rating? 260% improvement over Thermal Grizzly Minus 8 Pad. Interesting and Curious. Thermal Pad is Silicone based with clay like consistency. Sounds like Gelid. Results? Test and Verify! Based on what We know to be true: 8 W/mK x 260% = 20.8 W/mK Thermal Conductivity Rating implied! Better than Gelid Results most definitely! Wow! Thermal Grizzly Minus Pad Extreme amzn.to/3QSZdPl As an Amazon Affiliate I earn from qualifying purchases! Thanks for Sharing!

@personaldronerepair6141 2 года назад

This result tells me that the Jayi's smooth contact surface is the advantage. Gotta admit though, either one of these heat sinks are welcome in my rig, any day. Another home run Gill! Keep 'Em Coming!

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi PersonalDroneRepair, Agreed. I also wonder if having a Thermal Pad on the bottom also may have some bearing on that. Very interesting. Yes, they keep the Temps to a reasonable expectation. In a sense, We're nit picking. But We need to know the parameters with which We can reasonably expect. We do not want throttling and failure due to excessive heat. Better safe than sorry.

@personaldronerepair6141 2 года назад

@@BuildOrBuy I do believe that a thermal pad on the bottom would be the difference. I see where the holes are not elongated on the Acedelie though. Yes sir, I thoroughly agree. Not nitpicking at all, in my opinion. I love taking a product and getting more than the advertised performance out of it. Seriously, I am running the x570 Aorus Master with all three m.2s equipped with DriftIce 13W/mk on my 1tb 970 Evo Plus drives. I am so ocd about the performance and longevity, I only have the DriftIce covering the controller chip of the ssds and the memory chips only have stock pads on the bottom of my os drive. Small air gap between the top of the memory chips and the bottom of the heat sink. I am using the ineo M3 for my C: drive because it is located at the bottom slot. It is my understanding that the memory likes to be warm but not hot. Considering that the C: drive does not get written to regularly, I felt that this was a safe config. My two upper slots are using the stock heat sink with DriftIce 13W/mk covering the controller chip and stock Gigabyte thermal pads from an x370 Aorus K7 vrm. I took those pads out when I installed FujiPoly Sarcon Xtreme 17W/mk on the K7 vrm, in prep for the 16 core 3950x. The two upper drives do not have any bottom pads, so I used the low heat transfer pads on the top of the chips. This allows them to stay warm but remove heat while being written to. I use those drives for scratch and source drives while editing. (closer to the cpu) They get written to often. All drives idle between 29-31 Celsius and stay around 43-46 Celsius while working. So...no..not nitpicking. Just doing it right.

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

HI@@personaldronerepair6141, Sounds like an excellent plan! Thanks for Sharing!

@UncommonS3nse Год назад

Firstly, great videos, secondly, what thickness thermal pads have you used in these tests? Are they all advertised as 1.5mm?

@M150._. Год назад

For any temperature testing, you should always include the room temp (or environment temp) because it will have direct effect on the outcome. Regarding temperature comparison, we should only talk about the Delta, i.e. the difference between (max temp - room temp). Without room temp, all these comparisons are meaningless.

@BuildOrBuy Год назад

Hi M150, Welcome! Glad You've brought that up. Thank You for Your Comments. The Room Temp averaged 82 Degrees Fahrenheit.

@M150._. Год назад

@@BuildOrBuy Thanks for the info. I just watched some other videos and saw you actually did include room temp in several ones (just not all). Keep up the good work.

@BuildOrBuy Год назад

Hi@@M150._., Keep in mind, every Video is highly Edited for Content and Time. We have Tested 16 M.2 NVMe PCIe Heatsinks. We need better Designs. So far, Passive Cooling has Tested better than Active Cooling. That series started from a Question, What's the best M.2 NVMe PCIe Heatsink for the Supermicro Dual M.2 NVMe PCIe Adapter which does not have M.2 Heatsinks. Perception and Perspective. Thank You for Your Comments and Observations. We look forward to You Sharing Your Results.

@davidwhite2011 2 года назад

The controllers on the M.2 and the memory chips need two different heat ranges to run correctly unless you have Optane memory. Samsung does warn that running memory chips to cold will get them to fail prematurely. You want the memory controller to run at low temperature and the memory to run at a medium temperature.

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi David White, Glad You brought that up! Have You seen any M.2 NVMe Heatsinks that address those differences? Neither have We. However, this could be addressed with the Thermal Conductivity of different Thermal Pads. The only way to properly Test that would be with the Samsung 980 Pro since that M.2 NVMe Drive has a Thermistor on both Memory and Memory Controller. Fail prematurely from too little or too much. Balance. This is all still just a starting point to determine values of each from stock. BTW: Did You notice Intel sold their Optane Memory to Hynix.

@davidwhite2011 2 года назад

@@BuildOrBuy Yes they could never get the die size down to enough density. I am writing terabytes to mine everyday for months and still 100% health.

@maxhughes5687 2 года назад

I saw pads cut to fit the flash memory or the controller and different thicknesses used on M.2 drives. Maybe we need Gelid on the controller and stock pads on the flash. IDK

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi@@maxhughes5687, If We continue down this road, that would be the next possibility to explore. I'm not certain about different thicknesses or different Thermal values or both. We need to measure and see what We're dealing with to know. Great idea!

@maxhughes5687 2 года назад

@@BuildOrBuy IDK. The demo was with different heights above the pcb of the controller Vs the nand, with only one make and model M,2. All the other makes of nand may be different and W/Km on the controller may make no difference. Sorry just thinking out loud.

@maxhughes5687 2 года назад

Hi Gill. Are you doing OK? I miss the show!

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi Max, Dealing with a few issues. Lots of stuff going on. Reworked the lights. Temporary for now to improve Lighting based on a Comment. Have half of the Video completed. Don't like the 2nd part. Refilming that tomorrow. A lot of work for a Monitor for Entry Level Color Correction and Color Grading. Have to show Results of Monitor Tests from Camera and not from direct Input through Converter. Filmed with Laptop. Don't like the look. Refilming with Desktop. Staging to prevent shadows is tricky. Appreciate Your Patience and Support! Most Viewers have no idea of what goes in to making a Video!

@jerryrobbins45 10 месяцев назад

I would love to know how the acidalie would have performed on the motherboard with 2 of the factory supplied pads. Top and bottom. Thanks for doing these

@BuildOrBuy 4 месяца назад

Hi Jerry, Welcome. Just now found your comment. Good question. Thanks for Watching.

@krackpot_ Год назад

Great video! Is the red stock pad supplied on the Jeyi iGlacier8 a thermal pad? I just received mine and read a comment in your iGlacier8 testing video where the commenter described the use of the red pad. My nvme is single sided. Thank you & Happy New Year!

@BuildOrBuy Год назад

Hi krackpot, Welcome! Appreciate Your Comments! Yes, correct. Those elongated hole on the sides of the cradle or mounting bracket enable Us to utilize Single or Double-sided M.2 NVMe PCIe SSD Drives. We were using Single-sided. Hope that helps! Thanks for Watching!

@1sonyzz 2 года назад

5th... props for using proper noctua fans - non rgb-bs goodness

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi 1sonyzz, Absolutely! Those flashy lights do nothing for performance! And We're all about Function over Form! Purpose Built!

@IcaniCorrono 2 года назад

Yuo are just the best as always!

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi IcaniCorrono, I am honored! Thank Your for Your Support! Appreciate Your Comments!

@johannesdanis2054 Год назад

Hello, which one are you recommend? Gelid, grizzly or Oddsey for thermal pad? . Also there is new version of Oddsey which is Oddsey 2. I wonder which one is the best.

@BuildOrBuy Год назад

Hi Johannes danis, Welcome! Excellent Question! Depends. The takeaway, there are two ways to look at this. Two types of Thermal Pads. 1. Silicone - Reusable. Lower Thermal Conductivity Rating. 2. Clay like material - One time use. Higher Thermal Conductivity Rating. At what point do We get a diminishing point of return for an M.2 Heatsink and any combination of Thermal Pad. To reiterate, the Silicone Thermal Pads are reusable and are reliable. The Claylike material definitely has a Higher Thermal Conductivity Rating but do they justify the cost for such a small improvement. If Heat is the only criteria then get the Higher Thermal Conductivity Rating of the Clay like material. If However price is part of the equation, stick with Silicone Thermal Pads. Quantity also can be a determining factor when using 4 or 8 Thermal Pads. Thermal Grizzly Minus Pad 8 - Silicone, Self-Adhesive 8W/mK amzn.to/3G83qed Thermalright Extreme Odyssey Thermal Pad 12.8 W/mK amzn.to/3GyVlAu Thermalright Extreme Odyssey II Thermal Pad 14.8 W/mK amzn.to/3ImqUin Gelid Solutions GP-Ultimate 15W/mK Thermal Pad amzn.to/3jM6wwK As an Amazon Affiliate I earn from qualifying purchases! Hope that helps!

@XX-121 Год назад

the labels are thermally conductive anyway, aren't they? i thought the one on my sn850 was metal but i bought mine when they first released so i don't remember for sure. i left mine on and get very good thermals with an antec m.2 cooler that's no longer for sale. another thing i was afraid ripping the label off would've damaged the drive

@BuildOrBuy Год назад

Hi trance dj, Welcome! Depends. Some are. So are Sabrent. Removal does not damage the Drive. And according to FCC Rules, a Vendor cannot refuse to Service or not accept Returns due to a Label being removed. To reiterate, We prefer to leave them on. So We know what's what! Appreciate Your Comments! Thanks for Sharing!

@bdp-racing 2 года назад

Going through your videos…. Nice content. When it comes to M.2 drives is there one that stands out from the rest or are they all pretty much the same? Just had a Samsung 970 stop working that’s about a year old. Kind of paranoid about that happening again.

@bdp-racing 2 года назад

I also didn’t have a heat sink on it 😬. It was on my kids computer using an H510 MSI motherboard. Only used for homework and Minecraft.

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi BDP Racing, Thank You Very Much! Bummer! You have every reason to be paranoid after that fiasco! Seems to be a lot of that one, Samsung 970, going South. Tell Us more. Did You have a Heatsink on that Drive? Is the Samsung 970 still under warranty? Right now, We'd focus on the technology for the Speed one of 3 names by Phison using their E18 Controller and Micro Memory would be the Seagate FireCuda 530. Seagate FireCuda 530 2TB Solid State Drive - M.2 PCIe Gen4 ×4 NVMe 1.4, speeds up to 7300 MB/s, Compatible PS5 Internal SSD, 3D TLC NAND, 1275 TBW, 1.8M MTBF, 3yr Rescue Services (ZP2000GM3A013) amzn.to/3noCvSZ As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi@@bdp-racing, Just now seeing Your 2nd message. No Heatsink. PCIe 3.0 should not have been a Heat problem. Curious. Looks like We'll have to start reporting otherwise. Heat is just as much of a concern on PCIe 3.0 as it is on PCIe 4.0. If You have overhead Clearance, utilize one of these taller Heatsinks to maximize cooling efficiency.

@short5stick Год назад

what about the controller not touching because it is thinner? I used a thicker pad on the controller and a thinner pad on memory to make it level across the whole NVme

@BuildOrBuy Год назад

Hi Flyer-rcplane, Welcome! We're using the default uniform pad thickness. We're relying on compression. Thanks for Sharing Your experience!

@Vitorlean 9 месяцев назад

strange because you didn't remove the ssd stick to put the new thermal pad in?

@elteacher0223 Год назад

Thanks for the insight

@BuildOrBuy Год назад

Hi elteacher0223, Welcome! Appreciate Your Comments! Solving Problems and Providing Solutions!

@JustinCrediblename 10 месяцев назад

what about the thermal radiators that are less than 8mm high or whatever is necessary to be cleared by the GPU? Which ones are good?

@BuildOrBuy 4 месяца назад

Hi Justin, Welcome. Just now finding your comment. What direction did you choose? The most effective M.2 NVMe PCIe SSD Heatsinks are way beyond than size. Clearance for a GPU is a huge issue.

@teemuvesala9575 Год назад

I'd never use thermal pads on CPU or GPU. On graphics card naturally on stuff like the VRAM you use thermal pads, but I'm talking about the GPU (processor) itself. I see 0 reason to use thermal pad on it, thermal paste is simply better. I'd also always use non-electrically conductive thermal paste, cause there's at best few degrees difference between the best non electrically conductive and electrically conductive thermal pastes, but in case you did put too much thermal paste, if its electrically conductive and leaks to your motherboard surface, you just ruined your motherboard. With non conductive thermal paste at least you only need to clean it off, it won't mess up anything.

@BuildOrBuy Год назад

Hi Teemu, Welcome! Appreciate Your Comments! Agreed! Thanks for Watching!

@nintendomaniac64 Год назад

@@BuildOrBuy I'm a bit late but the only thermal pads (at this time) that should be used on things that pull at least decent amount of power (likely anything with wattage in the double digits and especially triple digits) would be those fancy-pants graphite pads which are generally comparable to a middle-grade thermal paste but should never degrade and, depending on fragility, can be reusable. I've always wanted to try using the graphite pads in-place of traditional thermal pads on things like VRMs and VRAM (I don't have any PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs) but, since they're designed more for CPUs and GPUs, the graphite pads are much thinner, non-adhesive, electrically conductive, and considerably more expensive per square mm (the threadripper size is the best price-to-area ratio if you're willing to cut it up). Therefore, outside of CPUs and GPUs, the only other thing I've used the graphite pads on are things like chipsets which tend to use the cheapest goop of a "thermal paste" if you can call it that (and yes, I have actually had two motherboards that had an overheating chipset, likely because the el-cheapo goop solidified). The two primarily-available graphite pads are: 　Innovation Cooling Graphite 　Thermal Grizzly Carbonaut The Innovation Cooling Graphite is more durable but generally performs worse while the Thermal Grizzly Carbonaut is more fragile but performs better; this makes the Innovation Cooling Graphite ideal for test systems where you're swapping things all the time while the Thermal Grizzly Carbonaut is ideal for more traditional systems with longer-term use (especially embedded situations - I used it as part of a repair on my cousin's Xbox 360) while still retaining better flexibility than thermal paste for changing parts out (albeit with re-usability not as good as the Innovation Cooling Graphite). Two protips on using graphite pads: 　1. Since graphite pads are electrically conductive, covering the area around the die of the processor (N/A if an IHS is involved) with an insulator can be a good idea, whether it be 3M electrical tape or a clear-coat nail polish (the latter is a trick commonly used by people applying liquid metal). 　2. The graphite pads are relatively slippery, so it can be a bit difficult to keep them in-place while attaching the heatsink. One trick is to put a single small drop of alcohol in the center of the processor and then place the graphite pad; the drop of alcohol will keep the graphite pad in-place and will obviously evaporate once any heat-load hits it. Interestingly, even after removal of the heatsink, this trick results in the graphite pad sticking to the processor a bit still, meaning it won't just "fall off" at the slightest touch. 　2b. An alternative to #2 is to instead use a graphite pad that is substantially larger than the processor itself so that excess graphite "hangs off" the sides of the processor. From there, assuming that you followed trick #1 and insulated the area around the processor, use 3M electrical tape to hold down specifically that excess graphite that "hands off" the sides (you obviously want to make sure that there's no 3M electrical tape between the actual processor and the heatsink itself).

@BuildOrBuy Год назад

Hi@@nintendomaniac64, Welcome! Appreciate Your Insight. This was part of a Series. All about M.2 NVMe PCIe SSD Drives, Heatsinks and Thermal Pads for same.

@nintendomaniac64 Год назад

@@BuildOrBuy On the subject of pad vs paste, there's also an extremely new type of pad, Honeywell PTM7950, that's basically a special kind of paste (more like a thermal putty really) that, below 45c, maintains a solid form but, above 45c, turns into a liquid. The main benefit is that it performs like the best thermal pastes if not actually better, and it's supposed to have considerably less degradation in performance over time (though presumably still worse degradation than a graphite pad which, as previously mentioned, should have no degradation at all, though graphite obviously starts from a worse baseline performance-wise). (note that it comes in a paste form as well, but the process for applying the paste version is considerably more troublesome than traditional thermal paste, so most people just use the pad version of PTM7950 which is applied like any old thermal pad and performs the same as the paste version, though the pad version is technically more expensive than the paste version) The main issues however are that it's quite expensive and availability on consumer markets is extremely lacking - the only place really at this time it's available from is from the website "modDIY" (unless you want to count AliExpress and Ebay, but both definitely have listings for what are actually cheap knock-offs of PTM7950 so watch out). (also, technically, it seems that it's actually a PTM7900 series and that PTM7950 is just one model, though it sounds like they're all just minor variations of one-another with the same performance characteristics - for all I know, maybe the only differences are things like quantity and viscosity?)

@BuildOrBuy Год назад

Hi@@nintendomaniac64, Sounds interesting. Also Sounds like that Product is not so User friendly. Good to know about the Technology though. We need better Designs definitely. Thanks for Sharing!

@sameerkumarverma5236 2 года назад

Hey Build or buy, could you please tell which is better for AI and ML A6000 or triple 3090

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi Sameer Kumar Verma, All I can suggest is to reiterate what You've asked on another Video that I've just answered and restated here. We have to consider the options for a purpose Built Computer for Your needs. AI and ML are all about Cores. More Cores the better. Most can address up to 4 GPUs. The problem becomes the Motherboard and PCIe Resources then the PSU. Due to those factors, With 1 RTX A6000, You can still add GPU Cores to that easily and scale up. With 3 RTX 3090s, You're limited by space due to the GPU width and Slot spacing. And NO Riser Cables on PCIe 4.0. PCIe 3.0, ok. Hope that helps!

@Bzik71 Год назад

which one you'd recommend for ssd? price doesn't matter, maybe except the most expensive.

@BuildOrBuy Год назад

Hi Bzik71, Welcome! Interesting to note the Thermal Pads with a Higher Thermal Conductivity Rating are Claylike and are not reusable. Whereas the Silicon Thermal Pads with a lower Thermal Conductivity Rating are reusable. If You're OK with that, these are great! We do a lot of testing and moving Components around. We like reusable but We also want lower Temps! Trade-offs! Every Degree We can lower is good! Anything below 65C is acceptable. Anything more is outstanding! The faster We go, the hotter We get unless or until the Designs change. Hope that helps!

@Bzik71 Год назад

@@BuildOrBuy Thanks for the info! Will be checking out the reviews. For now I like Gelid Ultimate thermal pads, I don't plan to reuse them.

@BuildOrBuy Год назад

Hi@@Bzik71, Absolutely! Got it! You're set to go! Success on Your Installation!

@flawns 2 года назад

could we get a final chart at the end to visual see the results?

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi WUT M8, Welcome! Over Edited. Excellent idea! Will get that on the List! Thanks for Asking! Quick Video Update with an explanation of Chart and Results!

@dolanthefacc879 2 месяца назад

Idk if youre gonna reply but i accidently ordered the GP-EXTREME version instead of the ULTIMATE so it has 12wmk instead of 15. Have you tried extreme too? Is it significantly worse or am i good?

@BuildOrBuy Месяц назад

Hi Dolan, Welcome. Just now seeing Your comment. We do not always receive notifications. How are your Results? What are your Temps indicating?

@dolanthefacc879 Месяц назад

@@BuildOrBuy Core temp results are marginal but less hotspot temperature and slightly lower fan speed. It was easy to install but still needed a little squish to make proper contact. The reason why temperature difference was unsignificant was due to the fact that my cards memories were pretty slow-ish (GDDR5 RX580 8gb) and they dont run hot but if you own a card like 3070ti/3080/3090 it will drop temperatures massively. (I still got -2/-4 lower core temp at %100 load and some games ran significantly cooler like -15c for some reason)

@BuildOrBuy Месяц назад

Hi@@dolanthefacc879, Interesting. Appreciate your follow-up. All about Results.

@JasperSkallow 2 года назад

Good work sir

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi Jasper, Welcome! Thank You very much! Appreciate Your Comments!

@robertweekes5783 2 года назад

Can you put chapters or time stamps in your description? Don’t have time to watch every 30-40 minute video

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi Robert Weekes, Working backwards through Comments under Channel Comments section as presented to Us. Yes! Great idea! Was relying on RU-vid Auto Complete for Chapters. Apparently not working! You only want Results. To reiterate, here's a link to the M.2 NVMe PCIe Heatsinks Results Chart minus Gelid Results. Hope that helps! Thermalright Extreme Odyssey Thermal Pad - Do You need it? ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ko_ezE111wE.html

@sisky365 2 года назад

New sub here! I've been watching your vids regarding pcie lanes and m.2. This has been a headache for me trying to figure out asus maximus hero z590. My goal is for gpu to run pcie 4.0 16x, 1 pcie 4.0 m.2 at 4x (for windows), and 1 pcie 4.0 m.2 at 4x (games). I guess I'm just not smart enough to figure this conundrum out using the manuel. please help!

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi Dustin Sisk, Welcome! I think We've already answered this question. RU-vid indicates We have not. Did You Post this Comment on 2 separate Videos? Let's try this again. To reiterate... ASU Maximus Hero Z590 rog.asus.com/us/motherboards/rog-maximus/rog-maximus-xiii-hero-model/spec To CPU: 2 x PCIe 4.0/3.0 x16 (x16, x8/x8, x8/x4) M.2_1 M.2_2 Through Chipset: 1 x PCIe 3.0 x16 (max. x4) M.2_3 M.2_4 See PDF Manual, See page 13: Connectors with Shared Bandwidth. That's the Key! To CPU: 1. PCIex16_1 = For GPU. x16 electrically. 16 PCIe Lanes. 2. M.2_1 = Boot Drive for Windows. 4 PCIe Lanes!?! 3. M.2_2 = Forget it exists! Otherwise, Your GPU would be in a x8 Slot! Wow! 4. PCIex16_2 = x8 = Forget that exists! Otherwise, Your GPU would be in a x8 Slot! Through Chipset: 5. PCIex16_3 = x4, Good to use! 6. M.2_3 = Use for Games. 7. M.2_4 = Usable. Disables SATA6G_56 To CPU: 8. Use PCIex16_1 for GPU. 9. M.2_1 = Boot Drive for Windows. 4 PCIe Lanes!?! 10. Through Chipset - M.2_3 = Use for Games. If I did not get this Comment answered before, We have it now! Hope that helps! Thanks for Asking! Keep Us Posted on Your Progress!

@sisky365 2 года назад

Thanks for the reply! Me and my son are going to build a gaming rig, I've tinkered with PCs but never built one. Idk if this is the motherboard for me from watching your other videos. I'm looking for an Intel motherboard with dedicated resources as you've described are very important. Having trouble deciding! Any suggestions are welcome! Thanks again

@JBM_NY 2 года назад

hey can you please tell me, is these pads used on chipset ? just found your video and SUBS

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi JBM_PAK, Welcome! Yes, they could be! The Higher the Thermal Conductivity, the better! I'm honored! Working on next Video! Appreciate Your Comments! Hope this helps!

@JBM_NY 2 года назад

@@BuildOrBuy this will help me but more appreciate , if you create one time video with that thermal pads on chipset, and this will help lot of people who suffer from temp issue, before make video you can search on it , lot of people on reddit posts for their chipset temp issues 😊😊

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi@@JBM_NY, Since You've had this experience and have discovered others having the same issues, tell Us from Your Research which Motherboard and Chipset seems to be causing the most grief? The Thermal Pad is only part of the Equation! Thanks for Sharing!

@oziah3377 2 года назад

How would you feel about running a dual m.2 card for storage on a proart b550 board, and running the graphics card on only 8 pcie lanes. After researching, it looks like this might be the best setup for storage and speed.

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi Oziah3, Welcome! Great idea! However, the problem will be Bifurcation of the Slots. A Quad card makes better use of PCIe Resources and better use of full Bifurcation of a given Slot for those PCIe Resources. Check the Bios and verify settings!

@mqcapps 2 года назад

Some say 8 lanes in gaming is overkill...dunno...I'm looking at dual m.2 myself

@maxhughes5687 2 года назад

I had the same thought. And it does sound good. Then I found out that the throughput of gen3 X16 only equals the throughput of gen4 X8 if your using a new GEN4 GPU. New tech cards today cost too much for me. Best Wishes, max

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi@@maxhughes5687, The question being asked is not the first question to ask. 1. PCIe Resources. Everything below a HEDT has 20 PCIe Lanes to the CPU. 2. Bifurcation, from what We're seeing Full Bifurcation is not being made available. Every single Motherboard has to be looked at and evaluated for whether full or partial Bifurcation exists. That issue of balance is not part of the equation that We can do anything about based PCIe Resource allocations. That's another reason We have to continually step through these inferior chipsets to determine how those Resources are allocated. Everyone takes an issue for granted for which they have not considered the ramifications. X16 sometimes equals x8x4x4 instead of x4x4x4x4. Details! Clarity! And then We have to determine the M.2 NVMe drive sequencing. Crazy, right. This should all be straightforward but it's not!

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

HI@@mqcapps, Welcome! 8 lanes implies 2 M.2 NVMe Drives in RAID 0 for a Hybrid Bios Bootable RAID. For PCIe 4.0, 3rd Generation, You already achieve 7,300MBps on the read and 7,000MBps on the write. And the combined speed of 4 drives actually equals the speed of 3 combined drives. Therefor, 7,000 x 3 = 21,000MBps or just under allowing for overhead. We do not have numbers to corelate 2 Drives, only 4 Drives. Better to Keep it Simple on these low end chipsets, below a HEDT, which have only 20 PCIe Lanes to the CPU which are faster than through the Chipset depending upon the Chipset and CPU. And that leaves 1 x16 and 1 M.2 NVMe unless the Bios fully Bifurcates the x16 Slot. Not x8x4x4 but x4x4x4x4. And then the issue of M.2 Drives, are they numbered sequentially in the Slot. Lots of variables. Each chipset and each Motherboard has to be examined to see how those PCIe Resources are allocated since they are Shared and not Dedicated. Hope that helps!

@UnniG 2 года назад

Thanks🌹

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi Mee 2# G, Appreciate Your Comment! Thanks for Watching! On to next the Video!

@Gamerpotatoe Месяц назад

But how well does the gp ultimate compress?

@BuildOrBuy Месяц назад

Hi@@Gamerpotatoe, Welcome. Good question. There are 2 types, Silicone and Clay like. This is the later and does not compress like the Silicone pads from our experience.

@Gamerpotatoe Месяц назад

@@BuildOrBuy awesome thanks for the info

@BuildOrBuy Месяц назад

Hi@@Gamerpotatoe, Yes. Thanks for asking.

@zlibz4582 4 месяца назад

why don't manufactures do this

@BuildOrBuy 4 месяца назад

Hi zlibz, Welcome. Good question. Agreed.

@mqcapps 2 года назад

What happens to an overheated m.2...is it just performance hits or throttle downs.. ..btw...just read that pcie 6 is headed out the door.

@maxhughes5687 2 года назад

I'm really not looking forward to that. A million gamer boys will tell us that GEN5/6 M.2 drives aren't any good because their antique game engine on their new AAA game doesn't load apps any faster from new NVMe drives than it does from SATA III drives.

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Great question! First would be throttling. Second would be drive failure which would be catastrophic. Yes, looks like PCIe 5.0 will be short lived. Maybe 2 years to make way for PCIe 6.0. Better right now to stick with PCIe 4.0 until these heat issues are better addressed. That's why We're looking into these issues, to Answer Subscribers Questions!

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi@@maxhughes5687, Excellent point! I'm sure We will be hearing that as You have stated. A fast M.2 NVMe Drive would be great for Virtual Instrument Libraries from an individual User standpoint! There are also going to be Video Content Creators who will benefit as We get beyond 4k Content to keep the Data Stream flowing for Video Rendering. They too will require throughput. As well as those doing VMs and Databases. Those are probably the 3 main markets that I can see right now.

@mqcapps 2 года назад

@@BuildOrBuy yep...

@mqcapps 2 года назад

@@maxhughes5687 yeah....how fast can fortnite go

@svsv6575 2 года назад

👋

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi SV SV, Welcome! Thank You for Watching!

@granthampson5917 2 года назад

@BuildOrBuy Hi Gill. Watched most of these heatsink reviews and ttruely apprecate these tests and have bought 2 of the Jeyi heatsnks for my 2 PC's. I would like to ask if you may please add the "Copper/Graphene" heatsinks to tthese tests. I would also like to ask for a Video testing stock MB VRM's & GPU Memory Thermal Pads(TP's) vs (EKWB 3.5W/mK / Thermalright 12W/mK / Gelid 15W/mK) vs K5 Pro 5.3W/mK. I also wander if where 3mm thermal pads are used to replace with 2x 1mm with a 0.25/0.5 copper shim sandwiched between them if any benefit?

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi Grant Hampson, Appreciate Your Comments! Great idea! We'll keep that in mind. Currently working on Motion Capture Build Specs and Volumetric Video Editing PC Build Specs from other Requests!

@tecnicoevaristo5030 2 года назад

Yo quiero saber el modelo de sus guantes.

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi Técnico Evaristo, Welcome! Translation: I want to know the model of Your gloves. Gladly! We've Built several Computers using theses Gloves. Good to have an extra Set. Sometimes they snag but manual dexterity is very good with delicate Components! ESD Anti Static Gloves with Carbon Fiber Tips amzn.to/3A3KtWW As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. Hope that helps!

@MrLince-hr4of Год назад

i just order "Gelid Solutions GP Ultimate 15W/mK " Igors Lab tells it is total crap and the same good like a 3W/mK soon i make my own testing in my GPU because the RAM goes up to max. 98C in a 1 hour gaming session, and i don´t want this any longer😁 if i can hit 80C or less i am very happy.... i tryed it with lot of smale copper plates, but it don´t work well and i just lost about 2C

@BuildOrBuy Год назад

Hi Mr. Lince, Welcome! We absolutely encourage Everyone to Test and Verify! All about Results! Your Results are what matters! We're just an example of expectations in a given situation! Appreciate Your Comments! Keep Us Posted on Your Results!

@MrLince-hr4of Год назад

@@BuildOrBuy thx, i will 👍

@MrLince-hr4of Год назад

@@BuildOrBuy i just wait i month for it and finaly i have it since 3 day but i am very disappointed with the performance i have now 92°C max so i gives me only 6°C 🤔 ok, better than nothing but i expect a lot more from that price, the smale piece of 3mm thick cost me €20,- it is also hard and dry compared to the original from EVGA in my 2060 KO

@BuildOrBuy Год назад

Hi@@MrLince-hr4of, And that goes back tovthe Question. The Gelid gas a Higher Thermal Conductivity Rating yet does it make that much of a difference. We should always Test and Verify. Results can vary. Agreed, that's terrible Results! I wonder how a Silicone Thermal Pad would Perform in Your Installation.

@MrLince-hr4of Год назад

@@BuildOrBuy the real terrible is the bad design for the memory cooling in this gpu, never have problems with the processor, max is only about 71°C at the same time memory goes up to 98°C I have good results underclocking the memory, i never need 7000Mhz 500 or 1000Mhz less and there is no diference in games but 10°C less hot

@iheartdiscgolf 2 года назад

Pretty soon with PCIe 5 and 6 we are going to have m.2 heatsinks the size of GPU coolers. 🤣🤣

@maxhughes5687 2 года назад

I'll have to see when and if I ever get a new gen5 board but my corsair M.2 water block should do the job. Review channels got a temp at 40c max. I still hope EK will give us a water block for a quad card. GEN5 NVMe temps maybe enough of a problem to make them sell.

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi MakeMuricaGreatAgain, Welcome! Certainly looks that way! And PCIe 5.0 may be short lived of about 2 years due to PCIe 6.0 which is suppose to last a bit longer. Time will tell!

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi@@maxhughes5687, We may be waiting for PCIe 6.0 since PCIe 5.0 could last only 2 years. Agreed, Looks like We all may have a water block in Our future! The only PCIe 5.0 M.2 cards are single Drive cards, so far. Interesting or very telling!

@maxhughes5687 2 года назад

@@BuildOrBuy It's over my head but I can't think of a reason 4 GEN5 NVMe drives wouldn't work in a raid on a GEN5 X16 socket set to 4x 4x 4x 4x. WOW 45000MB or about 350MB app load speed on the game engine on a new AAA game.

@BuildOrBuy 2 года назад

Hi@@maxhughes5687, Now You're just pulling my chain! We have yet to see a PCIe 5.0 Quad AIC. Seems odd. Don't You think. Not even a Dual PCIe 5.0 Adapter yet.