A pretty hot but pretty fair take - Zapdos is consistently checked only by Blissey and Raikou - latter of which has to run Thunder otherwise it doesn't even beat it 1v1 half of the time (Thunderbolt doesn't 3HKO lol). And Blissey - Bliss cannot threaten resttalk Zapdos offensively. Then when you consider that Blissey is quite uncommon and Raikou is considered to be 'falling off', it's pretty much a recipe for Zapdos being even more amazing
Snorlax also usually beats Zapdos 1v1 but it still takes a pretty hefty chunk from thunder + spikes and can potentially be ruined by paralysis. So Snorlax is a check at best.
The Scald thread he made a couple years back is pretty good and the supporters of Scald had no good points. Like they say "bro what about Sludge Bomb" a thousand times as any other 30% move is ever comparable to Scald and "no bro it's a move we can't ban it cuz next you'll want". The move needs to be eradicated from all tiers, things would only get better without that toxic move in EVERY single tier almost every single game on every Water type
I’m also of the opinion that Knock Off shouldn’t have received such a massive base power buff. It was already really good at doing what it did (removing opponent’s items) without it. I don’t think it needed extra incentive with a 97.5 BP buff. Hell, I’ll even be ok with it just being 65 at all times.
its a damaging move with a 30% burn chance that is super effective against the only type that is immune to burn. Yeah, very fun move, indeed. If it is THE most disgusting move, I cannot say. After all, baton pass, newer gen knock-off and pursuit exist.
Personally, I've always been a major fan of Zapdos. It was the only legendary bird I caught in Blue version (back when I was, well, a kid who didn't know what "save scumming" meant,) it was one of my most valued teammates (again, a kid who didn't know to spread EXP across a team,) and had one of the best cries in the game. Learning that it was far and away the most consistent of the three birbs only further cemented my fondness of it.
I've heard Zapdos get called "The most pretty good Pokemon of all time" and honestly that has stuck with me since I've heard it. Love the consistent little bugger.
@@disasterarea9341 Starmie has fallen off post ORAS tho while Zapdos was OU every gen besides BW when both Thundurus forms were goated, Zapdos closest competition is actually Tyranitar.
@@disasterarea9341 Starmie doesn't like spinning becoming less useful (except maybe in gen 9, but even then it's a spinner that loses to Gholdengo) and Psychic types becoming worse overall. Meanwhile Zapdos has been consistently good in every gen but BW
@@disasterarea9341in gen 5 Starmie loved weather wars, rain boosts its water attacks and lets it spam thunder, while both sun and sand teams pack lots of starmie weak mons.
Zapdos is disgusting beyond words. To the extent, that its stats and damage output are SO high, that it even trades even or even favourably against what should normally be a counter. It trades decently against Jynx 1v1 despite being weak to ice beam, it does decently against Nidoking, which is a ground type with friggin ice beam. It chunks Snorlax and even Raikou pretty hard with spikes down. Zapdos is also spikes immune so switching it in is easy. Zapdos is absolute. It is the spiky bird to end them all. Zapdos is about as broken as a pokemon that is allowed in OU could ever possibly be. And the only other pokemon that can keep up with that level of ridiculousness is ... GSC Snorlax.
As a non-GSC player (mainly play RBY and ADV), my understanding of Raikou is that it compresses the usage of a legendary electric along with an offensive Zapdos check. Raikou is preferred on defensive teams that can consistently spin to keep spikes off the field. Your point seems to be that Zapdos has so much more upside (spikes/eq immune, +10spAtk), that Raikou can't/shouldn't ever really replace it on teams. Some questions: -What's the flaw of Zapdos-less teams like Lax Raikou Forre Skarm with a rock/extra spin/water (like Mie+Tar). What's the perceived upside of not using Zapdos that is driving people to still use Zapdos-less teams (a counter-argument to your main argument)? How are these teams improved by using Zapdos (without making it a completely different team)? -If Raikou should only be used with Zapdos, what's the upside of using double-electric? What is Raikou's niche? Where does this place Raikou in terms of viability? -What's your movie recommendation for today?
- simplified: the major flaw is that such teams want to answer everything...and zapdos answers just about everything, while also giving you some of the best offense in the tier, so you're better off on both sides of the spectrum - double electric is an outstanding strategy bc offensively you overwhelm the opponent with thunder + spikes, and there is no defensive downside, since zapdos covers raikou's sole weakness to eq. raikou answering opposing electrics is great bc it means you don't have to rely on lax/grounds to do so, and that prevents the opponent from double switching in cloyster and getting an edge on you in the spike game, which is crucial for early-game momentum. raikou's ability to check pokes like jynx and gengar also frees up snorlax from running defensive restalk stuff to instead run more aggressive sets like those with self-destruct, so you're really piling on the offense every which way - tokyo sonata by kiyoshi kurosawa
That sounds fun. I like to play "wrong" in gsc a lot lol. Like trying thief sandstorm teams, the idea being that you reduce their longevity and make it your own, with those big SS turn damages + spikes. It rarely works, but it gives me a reason to play Scizor lol
That's sure a take. I think the title of the video would be better as "Gen 2 Zapdos is as irreplaceable as Snorlax", as I think *in the video* you made a better argument to that end. That said, as someone who's never played GSC OU before, I was pretty sold on Zapdos being a strong pokemon from your "Why Snorlax is not banned from GSC OU" a few months ago, where you talked about how a Snorlax ban would precipitate a Zapdos ban (and no one knows what that would look like/not enough people to test). Just not "as good as Snorlax". This could just be something I can't appreciate without numbers though - How well does Zapdos takes Ice Punches and Ice Beams from the common pokemon in the tier? How scared is the average pokemon of Thunder? Do even ground types in the tier balk at its Hidden Power and feel helpless against its Resttalk set?
I agree. 'As irreplaceable' doesnt mean 'as good'. With the same argument one could say that Mew is as good as Mewtwo in RBY Ubers, but thats obviusly far from true. Ofc the psychics are much more easy to compare between thenselves than zapdos and lax and a tier like mewbers exists, but from gen 1 ubers standards they are both mandatory afaik.
Zapdos is so good that you're basically forced to use Blissey and/or Raikou to check it anyway (technically Snorlax too can check it, but that is obvious, Snorlax can be a check/counter to pretty much everything depending his set.)
The way I look at it is Raikou is only "better" as a lead pokemon over Zapdos since it beats opposing Zapdos lead, and does better against Jynx lead. On Certain teams, most notably stall, Raikou having roar helps against some pokemon ie. growth espeon/curse ttar/icebeam suicune/non EQ Lax etc. Unfortunately because Raikou is most seen on stall style teams, and is often seen as a lead, it gives away a lot of information at the start of a game. If you are not using an electric lead ie. Jynx, Nidoking, Snorlax, Cloyster, Exeggutor, Ttar (secretly OP with miracle berry) etc. then Zapdos will always be better than Raikou.
SkarmBliss is still a good Defensive Core, Except Skarmbliss is what everyone uses when Snorlax is banned and why Snorlax isn't banned. to Prevent the SkarmBliss Stall Wars
Zapdos is absolutely fantastic, but I feel like putting it in the same tier as Snorlax is too much and I feel like you actually give solid arguments for that in this video yourself. One being that "every team needs Snorlax and an Electric type". Even if that Electric type should hands down be Zapdos, I agree with that, it's still a conversation to have. Using Raikou instead of Zapdos is generally a downgrade, and often not something to consider. But there are still arguments to be made for it and there are situations where it could perform equally well or maybe mildly worse. Snorlax isn't a conversation, Snorlax just is, and always will be in gen 2. Replacing Zapdos is like cutting off a fingertip, where replacing Snorlax is like cutting off your entire arm. Necessary status is definitely on the table, but "your team is an unplayable mess without it" status isn't. Zapdos is amazing at what it does, and that spikes and EQ immunity is valuable and probably still undervalued in a way, but Snorlax is amazing at everything. It's set variety is unmatched and even though it doesn't really add more than a bit of flair to the argument, that even applies to Ubers. I would agree with a S+ for Snorlax, S for Zapdos and S- and below for other mons.
Couldnt you also make this point to some extent for RBY? Obviously there are better and more consistent mons but most teams have 1 Zapdos counter (Rhydon and maybe sometimes Golem) which don’t run recovery and as soon as their out of the way, Zapdos (and sometimes Jolteon) sweep most of the teams. Although RBY has mons that don’t get countered by anything, so yeah
I've been trying to get into GSC competitive and I've really felt like GSC games come down to Zapdos Sleep Talk/Thunder RNG really often, maybe TOO often. Maybe Snorlax is better in theory but I've felt that Zapdos decides the outcome of way more games, at least from what I've played.
I've won more GSC games through booming on the Zapdos check and going crazy with the big bird than through any other stratagem. BKC might be exaggerating, but he has a point.
Zapdos offensive profile alone is near unmatched when it uses Thunder. That alone wouldn't make it as great as it is but for something with 100 speed, that makes it the powerhouse of the tier and the most well rounded under Lax. Only Marowak threatens more damage off the bat, Moltres and Machamp being close but worse overall.
If you run Zapdos, do you take Skarmory off your team? I assume the answer is no because they are so different and have different type weaknesses, but it's odd to think of 2 Flying-types being on a Tier 1 team. What DOES the ideal team look like, with current game knowledge? I'm shocked to learn that Cloyster is preferred over Starmie and Suicune tbh. So: Snorlax, Zapdos, Gengar, Cloyster, Skarmory, and a physical wallbreaker? Like Machamp or Heracross? Just to deal with Blissey and Lax? Would you run Blissey and Zapdos on the same team?
Zapdos depending on his set (especially the offensive whrilo thunder under spikes) is much more treating than Lax since every GSC teams have a least two counters/checks for lax, it's not the case for zapdos, raikou / blissey don't fit in offense and raikou csn even be muscle past with spikes whrilo. Zapdos forces lax in offensive teams to run most of the Time rest talk set, so that they have at least a more consistent check to zapdos, sacrificing therefore a precious moveslot (sleep talk) on the best mon in the tier. Lax remains definitly the best mon due to both his versatility and raw power (lovely kiss, belly drum, rest talk, curse EQ, etc.) whereas zapdos is more straighrforward (mainly two sets, rest talk and whrilo ones) but much more treating, especially with spikes early in the game.
Zapdos is my favorite of the legendary birds and I love seeing thrive. I'm glad it's one of the kings of the first few generations. I love Raikou as well but I hated that it would go up and down.
@Mythic it deserves to be and I love it's trio master Lugia I do feel so bad for Articuno, for some reason Moltres can still be viable but not beautiful boy Articuno
I know this is a nitpick and that you don't consider Ubers a tier (in as much as you do OU) but in comparison with Snorlax, this is not true in that tier, is it?
Oh yeah Scald is an absurd move Especially when you compare it Body Slam Body Slam: Normal - coverage is okay in neutral, but easy to switch into with a resist 80 BP Physical - very manageable, intimidate and high Phys Def mons are typically more common 30% to Para - great, Para is quite annoying for many mons Scald Water - better coverage in neutral and has SE coverage 80 BP Special - special is harder to deal with 30% change to Burn - whereas Para is very annoying for many mons, a Burn is a complete Death knell for them. INCLUDING Dragons and some physical waters that may try and switch in Body Slam is a fantastic move, and honestly could well be underrated in later gens. Scald is better in every way. ._.
Oh and I forgot to mention, Burn (by virtue of giving your opponent -2 atk, essentially), makes you much bulkier A scald burn is better than intimidate quite often
There's another thing missing, aka that electric types aren't necessarily afraid of body slam's coverage and thus can switch into it if they're bulky enough. The move's damage isn't impressive. Fire types on the other hand don't want to come near scald unless their name is volcanion, generally hate hazards, and even volcanion doesn't love staring down pex, or almost any OU scald user for that matter
No it’s not….Zapdos has a couple fairly hard counters in GSC….it’s really really good, but nowhere near as busted as Snorlax individually. Plus, it’s not straight up mandatory like Snorlax. Even if Raikou didn’t exist Zapdos still don’t compare to how centralizing Snorlax is/was It’s easily the #2 Pokémon in GSC….but no Snorlax
Because its annoying,if scald had 10% burn rate that would be more balanced,but no it has 30% which is same rate as missing focus blast. And the reason why moves like discharge and sludge bomb aren't annoying like scald is because they have good counters. (Ground and steel types respectively) while the only type that immune to burn is fire,which is weak to scald.
@@yeet8036 I was being sarcastic, but thank you for the insightful comment this was a good breakdown of the flaws of a problematic move. The other thing I would add is outside of surf it's one of the highest damaging special type moves that isn't a signature move and is 100% accurate. and with a 30% burn rate it arguably has more utility than surf. Making it a great move to just throw on to any water type Pokémon that needs a STAB special move.
@@J0ulez5 ah sorry I just had so many arguments about scald and so many people used discharge/sludge bomb as an counter argument. Also yeah scald is way too strong,80 BP move with that burn chance is absurd.
Zapdos was still better than in RBY when Hidden Power was banned on Legends cause A. its resistances matter a lot more than they did in RBY and it still checks numerous mons including Exeggutor B. Resttalk shrugs off status and gives it way more longevity C. Reflect Zapdos was borderline unkillable on physical side for bunch of turns, helped vs Snorlax and only Rhydon, Steelix (needed Rock Slide if Screen Zapdos or Curse boosts to trade with Explosion) & Golem (same as Steelix) truly countered it.
Sorry mate, big respect for you, but this video is highly inaccurate. I feel you are either in too much love with Zapdos to be unbiased or you have had been kicked by it many times, in order to say these things. Zapdos is a great Pokémon, the undisputed #2 in the tier, but it's neither undroppable nor as good as the #1, Snorlax. For 2 main reasons A) It's outclassed by Raikou in defensive teams (which are inferior to offensive ones but still perfectly viable). A second special wall behind lax is necessary and Raikou is a better option than Blissey, also providing a very solid offensive threat. Zapdos's stronger points that you mention are not as valid in stall. Firstly, it's higher damage output is not so important, as you can very easily switch kou out of the Lax/Ground that will be sent against it-you are using stall, you have answers. Secondly, it's defensive merits are welcomed for sure, but a bit redundant as well. Skarmory+Raikou+Starmie, stall's most common core, answer all threats that you would need Zapdos for. Last but not least, Zapdos can HELP against many threats, but it's not a PERFECT COUNTER to none (even curse Heracross has a small chance to beat it)-therefore, it's not a perfect pick for stall. B) It's certainly not as good as Snorlax. Snorlax can fit in every team because it has such a wide movepool that it can do anything. And it can deal with most teams (excluding Skarmory ones) with the very basic set of DE-EQ-RestTalk. Not even relying on a 70% accurate move to do so. Can Zapdos, even if it hits all it's Thunders, beat every team with its own RestTalk set? No. Even against offense, it will need Spikes and a lot more of support (Thief jynx, BOOM gar etc.) to break through-guess who-Snorlax. Therefore hearing it's equally good to it just makes me laugh. ps: sorry if I am being a bit too aggressive, I really respect you a lot as a player as I said, but I can't accept such vague arguments from such experienced and good players. If nothing else, it might be misguiding for the many -inexperienced- players who will see this video. Who may dump a perfectly good (stall) team just because it lacks Zapdos...This would be hell of wrong👎
respect the opinion but strongly disagree. I think stall teams with zap are all far worse than those with zap; zap's offensive-defensive ability means they don't HAVE to perfectly counter everything (which is often in the hands of the matchup gods to an uncomfortable extent) because zapdos owns so many pokes in a real game situation. also that skarm kou mie core you mentioned can't even stop nidoking safely, while zapdos eats it up. without zap, stall often falls into the trap of being passive and exploitable.
@@BKCplaysPokemon Well, first of all I appreciate the response. But I also disagree. First of all, stall teams are actually meant to counter everything (relevant). You don't rely on doing damage as much as you rely on avoiding it. Secondly, Zapdos is not so deadly offensively if its only support is Spikes (which you may not even maintain lacking offensive presence and, usually, a spinblocker). Thirdly, raikou does the offensive job more or less. You don't mind the facts that it hits slightly less hard or that it is threatened more by opposing ground types-you can just switch out to skarm, starmie etc, it's not like when you are using offense and you don't have any real eqlax answer so you want to give it as little room as possible. Fourth, Nidoking is countered by RestTalk Lax in this structure. Didnt mention lax alongside the other 3 because it's a given that the team will include it. Starmie can also help as soon as it has used its LK. Fifth and last, does Zapdos eat up Nidoking? Come on man, you are way too good of a player to know this is not true. A well played Nidoking comes on top more times than not between bad stalk rolls, crits and IB freezes. And that's the problem with Zapdos on stall. When using this archetype, you expect the team members to counter things perfectly. Skarmory counters eq lax perfectly. Raikou counters electrics perfectly. And so on. Zapdos counters nothing perfectly. All mons it could by virtue of its typing either carry se coverage for it (Nidoking, Machamp, Marowak) or can beat it by accumulating boosts on bad stalk rolls (Vaporeon, Heracross). Therefore, it's a nice option for an extra Spikes Immunity and fighting resistance, but nowhere close to a must-have on defensive teams.
Well while we are doing hot takes, and you are on this movie content hype train, I have a hot take for you sir. Pokemon Emerald rouge is a great rom hack and you should idk make a video about it. I know its not related to elite tournment play or meta of pokemon.
In the context of the OU meta, sure, I respect that take and won't argue as somebody who never plays the tier. As a pokemon overall, definitely not. Lax is the top ranked uber and zapdos is far from that.
