Gender Diversity In Games - Kinda Funny Gamescast Ep. 109 (Pt. 2) 

Who the fuck cares about gender diversity, skin diversity, sexual diversity in video games. Just let the writer do as they please.

I can't believe we're still fucking talking about this shit.

I don't know what's worse: forced diversity in games/movies, or having a forced conversation about diversity to look virtuous?

Why is this a topic? Anyone who has been gaming for any length of time knows that A. There have always been female characters and B. That most gamers don't care if the character is female. This topic speaks to a small percent within a percent of gamers.

Colin the reason you gave for not relating to Alloy made no sense though. You basically said the idea of relating to her is ridiculous because she lives in a crazy future sci-fi setting. So does that mean you never related to Luke Skywalker in Star Wars, at least as a kid growing up? To me the setting has little bearing on relating to characters or not. You can still relate to their personality, their dreams, their goals, their relationships, and the human drama that takes place within the crazy setting. Star Wars has a crazy sci-fi setting but when you boil it down you have the struggle between good and evil, and a coming of age story, both of which can be relatable in any setting. So in my humble opinion the reason you stated there doesn't make a lot of sense. And ironically, maybe the reason you couldn't relate to her was her gender after all, but you just thought it was the setting. Because if you did relate to Luke or Han despite the sci-fi setting, but you don't relate to Alloy, then maybe it is the gender after all and you just didn't realize it, and the guy who emailed has a point? Of course, it could just be that Star Wars is Star Wars, and had actual actors to portray relatable characters rather than polygons, but it's a question worth asking. Or maybe you didn't relate to Star Wars characters either.

People seem to be afraid of titles like this, for some reason. Good luck, hopefully there is no backlash. I am also so glad you're making this video. After reading comments last week on your herizon review about people not "relating to female characters" I think this discussion is needed.

Honestly, if you wrote to these guys saying you don't like playing female characters in a game, you have some deeply rooted problems that extend beyond gaming.

Tim: "Even though we don't relate EXTRA to this character because of (gender, colour, sex, etc) there are people that do relate extra because of that" Nail on the fucking head. I disagree with the Colin's thoughts that it's weird that you would try to relate to a video game character, because like every other medium whether it be movies, books, etc, you want to root for the main character, and in ways, try and relate with their circumstances and situations. And if the main character has more similarities with the person you are, then of course that's a good thing and you automatically will feel more connected. But that doesn't mean that you should be so affected by how the character looks that it takes you out of the experience of playing the game. I'm a brown guy from Southeast Asia, married to an Afro-Latina woman. I don't see characters like us in games much; but does that take anything away from how much I loved the Witcher 3? Or my love for Mass Effect? Or fucking Final Fantasy? Of course not. But when playing Uncharted 4, and a strong badass female character like Nadine who has the same skin colour and hair of my wife comes in, my Wife (who doesn't play games at all) tells me, "Oh wow, that's really cool that they have a character like her in the game," it made me smile. Would it change my experience if she were white and a man? Probably not. But the fact that she did look the way she did, and the game never went, "Hey, you! Look! She's black! Ain't that cool? Diversity man!" and just let the character be this badass who HAPPENED to be a black woman, was great. Just like how Naughty Dog handled Ellie's sexuality in The Last of Us, it didn't change anything about her character, and they weren't shoving it in our faces, it was simply a fact. But I'm sure there were girls/woman who are gay, playing the game, and it resonated more with them because of it, and that's awesome. If a triple A game comes out in the future and it features you playing as a brown guy from South Asia, that wouldn't affect many of you, but it would be really interesting for me. Of course I'll care more about the game and that it plays well, but it'd be very interesting for me because I've never seen a character like that in a game. Diversity should be normalized, and not a feature.

To suggest that that guy is wrong for having difficulties relating to a female character because he's a guy, while also arguing that there should be more diverse main characters for people so they can relate to them and feel like they're represented seems oxymoronic to me. I disagree with him because, like Tim said, I feel like I relate more to the struggles and situations the character finds themselves in but to then say it's important to have strong female characters for girls to relate to is the antithesis of what you just said.

To people asking why this is still a discussion --- because there are still people out there that complain about having to play as a female protagonist. That’s why. And why is it that every time, without fail, I see someone complain about diversity being “shoved down our throats” it’s a white guy talking? Maybe if you’ve grown up wondering why there aren’t main characters that look like you in games, film, and television that are not token characters, you would understand where we are coming from. Props to you guys for talking about this in an intelligent and respectful way. Though I disagree on relating to characters. You can relate to characters by the choices they make or are forced to make, the interactions with others, or simply how they feel about the things happening around them. I know when I play games I’m not consciously hoping for or thinking bout how I relate to characters, it just happens naturally/subconsciously.

People relate to stories because we speak in stories. If this character and this story wasn't relatable no one would be interested in it. Just like if you were having a conversation that was totally unrelatable no one would listen to you.

Complaining about not being to relate to female characters is an incredibly selfish way to think. Guess what? There are people other than you that want to play games and guess what? Some of them are women. If you need to relate to the character, go play any one of the thousands of games that feature a male character. To acknowledge that relating to characters is important but then just dismiss the fact that women may want that too is just super immature and selfish.

I don't know how Colin doesn't get this. He even uses the phrase "on a base level" but that's the thing, on a base level you can relate to pretty much any video game character in some way. Aloy has a father figure that is a mentor to her, I have a father who was a mentor to me. Bam, relatable. Greg was joking around, but you can relate to traveling on a space ship if you've been a plane, especially the first time you fly to a place you've never been. I can relate to Nathan's relationship with Elena in Uncharted 4 because I too have lied to a significant other because I thought I was protecting her. These are all relatable on a base level.

aya brea from parasite eve, regina from dino crisis, jill valentine and claire redfield from resident evil had brought diversity to games years before all this bullshit being debated. so what's the surprise now?

To the guy who emailed in complaining that he would relate to Alloy more if she was a dude, I can already predict the solution the game devs will come back at him with. ALLOY TRANSGENDER DLC! Coming June 2017, give your character a gender-binary twist in the progressive, future world of Horizon: Zero Dawn. Discover the secrets of a lush, post-post-apocalyptic world. Find out which cis-gendered white man blew up the old world and why, creating the post-apocalyptic paradise that will become your playground. And if you are worried about the lack of a believable villain in a world full of robot dinosaurs, fear not! There are still some men around to shoot, stab, and run over with robot dinosaurs! Cis men love to mount women and create patriarchal technology, but now you, as Alloy, can feel the thrill of mounting THEIR OWN creations and using them against the descendents of the men who created them! Now available in PSVR, you can truly escape the backwards, patriarchal world of today. Re-purposed from a captive robot T-Rex, and fused with Alloy's DNA using the advanced technology of Horizon: Zero Dawn's world, experience for yourself the invigorating feeling of power that comes with having a multi-feature robot dick swinging between your legs, available exclusively thanks to the unmatched horsepower of PS4 Pro with HDR. After all, Horizon: Zero Dawn is all about freedom, and never limiting the player. As such, while we at PS4 would frown upon ever taking Alloy's robot dick off, we understand that both gender and sexuality are fluid, and some players will want to go back and forth as they adjust to the New World. Thankfully, our partners at Gorilla Games have designed a custom companion for Alloy, Jake Wilson, who is a white cis-gendered male. This feature allows Alloy to take off zher robot penis whenever the player chooses, and stick it down Jake Wilson's throat, where he will store it and keep it lubricated and in good condition for the player. Don't worry, he can't feel it! As a cis-gendered white male, his emotional range is obviously quite limited and primitive to start with, but just in case some outdated players felt uncomfortable with this feature, our partners at Gorilla Games were considerate enough to Jake to design a backstory where as a child, his family was attacked and eaten by cannibals, and he barely escaped after his mouth and throat were stabbed and the nerves were damaged. So rest assured, he can't feel a thing above the shoulders! Now if we had really wanted to hurt him, we could have stored it somewhere else, so any criticism directed our way is ridiculous! All these features, and MORE, are coming to PS4 June 2017! But wait, there's more! To our large community of Trans-Species players, WE HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN ABOUT YOU! The last few months, our partners at Gorilla Games have been hard at work designing Alloy's multi-feature robot penis, and the extensive lore behind it, but to our very large community of Trans-Species players, it is with great pride that we now reveal that we ALWAYS had you in mind. You see, this was just a first step to our next DLC pack... Cumming August 2017, experience the next-gen, complete re-defining of the "end game" experience in open world RPGs. In past games in the genre, you finished the main story and all the side quests, you killed all the enemies, and then the game was over. What was left to do? Not anymore! We are now introducing an all-new feature for high-level players, built upon the ground-breaking design of Alloy's robot penis. After killing the last enemy dinosaur in the main game, players can travel deep inside the Ark, and discover the last living robot dinosaur who never dies! Using this all-new feature of Alloy's robot dick, players can now repopulate Horizon: Zero Dawn's lush world, one dinosaur at a time, before starting the ride all over again! This time, the dinosaurs will be able to use abilities straight out of Alloy zherself' very own repertoire! But wait! There is even more! We are now pleased to announce or final DLC for Horizon: Zero Dawn, one that builds upon the first two genre-revolutionizing packs in unexpected ways. Because there is one very, very large community of gamers that have been under-represented by the rest of the industry, but who we have not forgotten about! In the main game, when you killed a robot dinosaur, the robot skeletons would fall apart and drop loot, and then their robot bodies would eventually disappear. Not anymore! Coming September 2017 in an all-new DLC, we now give players the options to keep the bodies intact after Alloy defeats them, so that Alloy can use her robot penis on them even after death! We feel quite strongly that our very, very large community of Transgender-Trans-Species-techno-transcendent-necrophiliac gamers have not had nearly enough games made for them. THAT CHANGES NOW! Well, in September. Discover an entirely new threat to either defeat, or side with, in the world of Horizon: Zero Dawn, as half-dead, half-robot, half-dinosaur, half-ginger creatures rise from the husks of their robot-dino and robot-penis progenitors, and experience the commencement of a New Age both within the game, and in real life! Who will you side with? Make your choice, September 2017. Just don't side with cis-gendered white males, otherwise we reserve the right to revoke your copy of the game.

I think the problem here is that Colin has a very different definition of "relating". If you don't relate at all to a story, it is boring. Relating to a story is about relating to certain aspects, like Greg said about Aloy's father figure.

People like to live vicariously through the characters in games, usually as a power fantasy. That's why a lot of people play video games.

I'm all for Diversity.

Colin, if you are friends with Dave Rubin, you should ask to go on his show

I play video games for fun and enjoyment..😎

I think they're confusing relating to a character to feeling sympathetic to a character.

I don't know if I understand Colin but I think he either misses the point of what's happening or he's wilfully dismissing it. The point of connection isn't with a character in a futuristic version of Earth filled with giant metallic dinosaurs, it' about the relatable human moments like falling in love, getting friends, loss pain hatred etc. People connect with the humanity and fall in love with the artistic visions and beautiful vistas in the game. You're not meant to relate to the specifics of the world the character is in, but the allegories and connotations to the one we know now. Like take a look at the Last of Us. It's a story about an old white guy who lost his daughter, drifted in a cruel and unfamiliar world and was given a chance to reconnect with another daughter figure in a new way. I'm a black guy with no kids and I connected with Joel's struggle even if I couldn't with his ethnicity

"That's not funny Greg, you can't joke about slavery." Thought I was going to die from laughing.

Sometimes when Colin speaks, he really disappoints me!!

It's been a long time since a game made me smile for its beautiful open world and soundtrack. First impressions of the game: just plain amazing.

The majority of gamers do not care about the gender or race of the main protagonist, but it makes for a better news story if we pretend the few who do are the majority.

I don't play mario to relate to mario because mario isn't a story driven game. I play it for it's gameplay and level design. It's the same way I don't play jacks to relate to the rubber ball. Horizon is a story driven game with realistically written characters that everyone can find something to relate to in them. You don't need to also live in a dystopian future with giant robot dinosaurs to be able to relate to a character who's afraid, or loses a loved one, or is trying to make a parent proud. That's what makes a story interesting, relatable characters with realistic emotions. Imagine a main character who was never afraid, who was good at everything, who never failed; no one could relate to that so it'd be boring. That being said I don't need to be a female to relate to a female.

Fuck I love the Rubin Report.

For me it's not so much relating to the characters I play as but living through the characters if that makes sense? When I play Skyrim or Mass Effect I try to imagine myself as the character I'm playing as. Enhances the enjoyment of the game for me generally. I have a little more of a difficult time doing that as a female character but that doesn't ruin the enjoyment just makes it not as easy to imagine myself as that character, it's still enjoyable, I'm playing Horizon Zero Dawn while watching this video and I'm loving the game. Some people don't want to relate that character but maybe envision themselves as that character I guess.

What about racial diversity in the video game journalism industry? No black or asian people writing for IGN, Gamespot etc?

Yikes. I must say that Colin really comes across as someone who does not understand the importance of empathy as it relates to storytelling. When people discuss being able to "relate" to a fictional character they are often referring to their ability to understand the emotions and decision-making processes of that character. When we do that we are often referencing our own lives consciously or subconsciously which is what gives stories their power.

as a muslim meadle eastern and as someone who has never played as a character like him before, forced diversity and the need to have at least one female , one black person, one gay person completely escapes me

Who cares what gender or race the character is? Just enjoy the games and let the writers do what they want. Get your heads out of your asses and accept that this is 2017 and there is no such thing as normal anymore. How exactly is someone's skin color, gender or sexuality more important, than their own unique personality? Just because someone's a female bi-sexual robot from Jupiter doesn't mean we can't be friends, unless they're a serial killer. Get over yourself. We're all human, we're all different and we need to stop being mean to others just because they're different.

For me, an average caucasian guy, in games where there are choices to be made and role to be chosen for your character, the closer that avatar is to my IRL-persona and body, the harder it's for me to immerse myself into the game. Creating a character that looks like me and acts like me is always going to be constant reminder of my own life and how i'd find it impossible to relate to how i'd react to having powers of the Dragonborn or anything like that. I usually end up creating a character that is the opposite of me, an ethnically diverse female who loves the ladies (if that option is given) and creating a short backstory for that character to base their choices and their personalities in something instead of not knowing how to react in any given situation. This tendency to seek as different perspective from mine as possible could be due to my many years of being the GM in our pen&paper-RPG's and having to come up with and inhabit many different roles. Games that don't include choice of gender and/or a character creator don't bother me that much, but lack that final step that would allow me to fully engage in a story. So even though Withcer 3 might be better than Dragon Age: Inquisition on almost all metrics, i still had the more immersive and enjoyable experience with DA:I just because i was free to create my avatar instead of having to inhabit the boots of Geralt. My DA:I characters backstory included stuff like being a noble's daughter who snuck out of the mansion to hunt with bow, thus explaining her rogue-archer skill. She met had fell in love with a peasant-girl who had some skill in magic and had been able to hide it from everybody until my characters father found out about the books on magic that i had been borrowed from his library to help the girl master her skills Then one of her training-sessions was interrupted by the guards father had sent after me. This resulted in templars coming to take her away and making her a tranquil, thus making the conflict between mages and templars in DA:I much more personal issue. Then when you're armed with such a backstory and you get to make choices like who to ask for help with closing the breach and when you can choose "my family and i aren't on good terms"-dialogue options, it's much more engaging than having Geralt say something about HIS history. So, for all those TL;DR- and TMI-commenters out there, i thought i'd just give my view on some of the issues you just spent around 20 minutes watching a video of. Other than that, are there any other "crazy" people out there who go as far in creating characters for video game RPG's or do you just inhabit more of an empty shell where the choices that are made are what you'd choose personally?

As a black man, I can understand where Colin is coming from. Diversity for diversity's sake in media is stupid. But playing devil's advocate, I can see the benefit and realization of relating to a character in video games too. For example, in Heavy Rain, "the Jason scene" hit me personally because I became a father recently and the fear of losing a child resonated with me. Here's the thing, I felt connected to that scene in an emotional way not because of race, or gender, or religious beliefs, etc, I related with the scene because I'm a parent and that scene still affected some who weren't parents. If a game's cast is made of up of mostly white men or exclusively an entire alien freaking race, it doesn't really matter. I would think the only time something like that matter's is if a particular race, culture gender etc is exempt purposely and affects the story without their inclusion OR if the person, thing or idea is subjected to heavy stereotypes. And even then, there's exceptions purposeful story impact, satire, humor etc.

Yeah I can relate with Sora, I remember that time my apartment complex got swallowed by darkness.

It sounds like the letter was building a strawman. Personally I don't care what gender of race the character is. I relate to them the same way as I would a character in a book or film. It'd be like me saying I don't watch any Will Smith films because I can't relate to him. It's dumb.

I always look at the way people connect to films and games in a similar way to how we just relate to people, it's just about finding small common ground and comparing it to what we know. It's such a weird idea to me that someone can't do that based off of a characters gender

Lol when Colin said "who can relate to Tetris?" Greg replies "RUSSIANS!" 😂😂😂

Now Colin I agree with you argument about how not every thing have to be related; However I wish you and everyone else would take these stance when it comes to comic book hero's like superman.

colin i think youre wrong on the relatability aspect. people relate to characters and struggles and human drama. you could also relate to a setting like in fallout 4 with it being based in mass.

Colin you have a very narrow definition of relatable. People don't relate to the situation of a futuristic setting with robotic dinosaurs. People relate to the human condition. Greg touches on that with how Aloy relates to her family and stuff like that. I don't find Joel and Ellie all that relatable by your narrow definition of being like the characters, but I do find their relationship and their dynamics relatable because it speaks to the human condition, and we can connect to that even if the people aren't like us. Some people get hung up on surface level things, but most people, when you break it down, simply relate to the human condition.

16:45 Exactly Colin. It's the hierarchy of Victimhood. And yea, I love Dave Rubin. It'd be awesome if you could go talk to him. He's a great interviewer

I think the disconnect here comes from the term relates. Relate doesn't mean that we've shared the exact same situations as characters, but that we can compare our experiences to theirs through the human experience. Clearly no one has ever hunted robot dinosaurs, but we can relate to Aloy through her struggles and trials. Relating to them is more about empathy and an emotional connection than a direct resemblance between our lives and theirs.

I'm glad they shut Collin up about relating to characters. Collin can't relate to anyone that's his decision. Personally I like to put my self in the world I'm playing I grew up hunting aloy is a hunter I can relate to that extent but I never had a girl out there hunting with me. So to me in my world it's unrealistic that the problem with my brain.

The reader that Colin called out, ironically shows why diversity in gaming is important. If he feels from this ONE GAME that he can't relate because he doesn't identify with the protagonist, imagine how say, a black woman who is a gamer feels. He proves the point. With that said, I agree with Colin, I don't at all understand people who have to relate to the character. Even when I create characters, I create females usually because the animation is more interesting. Needing to have this relate-ability is a really strange perspective.

i use "relate" in a different way than you guys are talking about here... i don't think you "relate" to them in a literal way (their gender, location, occupation etc), but in an emotional way... you relate to them in the sense that you sympathize and empathize with them and can imagine what you would do in their situation. thus anyone can relate to any character if the writing is good and the character is represented as a normal person with dynamic feelings, whose reactions to their situation are relatable. like i never relate to characters in the sense that i feel like i'm in the same exact position in life as them. i relate to them in the way that i can imagine how i would react similarly if i were in their position.

Colin nailed it as usual. Hilarious so many people don't understand the meaning of the word relatable. Video games are so fairy tale absurd shit which is cool but nothing I can relate too. Watch a Movie Like Moonlight and Manchester by the sea, that deals with things that have happened to me personally and people I know IN REAL LIFE.

I'm a tall black guy who's played the last 5 games as an athletic white woman. Who gives a flying fuck? The only thing that matters is those games I played were fucking awesome. 😎🖕🏾 (Rise of the Tomb Raider, ME trilogy and H:ZD if you're curious)

If we go by the definition, relating things just means finding connection between them. As a white, young male, I found myself relating to Aloy based on experiences. No, I have not hunted mechanical dinosaurs, but I have dealt with being an outcast and questioning religion whilst surrounded by the holiest of the holy. Though my life and her's are not nearly on the same level, I found connections between these experiences, thus I found myself relating to Aloy's experiences. If we use the definition, I don't think anyone here is wrong besides Colin...

Greg completely destroyed Colins argument this time. Hahaha. So awesome.

Colin, we relate to character's humanity. Not the exact experience we find them in. I can relate to Gerald's humanity precisely because what he does along the way is so inhuman, that when certain narrative beats do expose his humanity, I relate to him that much more.

did solidrev send in that mail

Diversity in a given game is absolutely fine, a lack of diversity in a given game is fine too. To me, things only become an issue when people freak the fuck about too much or too little of it.

I think if we're talking about narratives whether it be Movies, TV or video games relatability is extremely important. whether you can relate to the characters situation or their internal struggles there has to be something in that character that you can either empathize or sympathize with, which what relating is. Collin makes a point saying that "who relates to Mario or Tetris" no one because those games don't lean on a narrative to keep you interested. Horizon does, so having her struggle be something you can sympathize (relate) with is important. But the guy writing a letter saying he cant relate to Eloy because she's a woman and is ridiculous. That's like saying I cant relate to a protagonist whos a spy because I'm not a spy....relatability is about sympathy or empathy being able to relate to their struggle whether they be internal or external has nothing to do with gender....or occupation.

I think it is more important that character traits are relatble rather than gender or skin colour.

I love Colin but I really don't think he understand what relate means or at leased how to apply that to characters. The story being set in an apocalyptic future with robots has nothing to do with relating, you relate to characters through the human struggles they encounter. I don't want to write a novel here, just super baffled by Colin and his idea of how theirs no way to relate to these characters.

As a male, who HATES social justice, I far more frequently play as females given the choice. The only exception being Elder Scrolls/Fallout. I usually play as a male then.

On a metaphorical, subjective or more basic level, you can find more relation to the characters. With respect to Aloy, her social, mental and physical struggles, as well as her being subject to ostracization are generally relatable. The metaphor of the tech. beasts, that is technology can be destructive, is something a lot of us should consider. Granted, I know the topic is characters, but I thought I'd throw that out there. I'm also only like an hour in so I may be ignorant here, trying to fill in gaps myself. On another note, lots of characters are on extreme ends of personality for rhetorical reasons or to catch interest. And relate to, sympathize with or empathize with (depending on the strength of the relation), not be. Relation allows a deeper connection with a character, whose differences may intrigue you or inspire different perspectives.

Yeah, Overwatch shows this is a more complex than people think. From my experience, male players are more likely to play female characters, and female characters male characters. That said, Overwatch including so many female characters certainly did help pull in more female players(IMO), but it is not as linear as most assume.

It's pretty simple, if you are human theres a ton of things to idenfify yourself with with another human, even if you can't relate to specific perspectives of his/her gender. But you could try to empathize with those... yeah people sometimes forget about empathy

Colin's words are music to my ears.

I think you can relate to a character, or a thing, an idea, an activity, etc. Colin makes it sound like to relate you have to be exactly alike or even close. I'm not a southern late 40s smuggler in an apocalypse but I can relate to Joel. I can relate to his anger, to his sadness, to what isn't always displayed at face value. I get where he's coming from. I'm a mixed race 18 year old guy living in Southeast Michigan (Detroit metropolitan area) that plays guitar and piano, writes, and enjoys video games. I've never had a job and I don't really know what I'm doing with my life, but regardless, I see a lot of myself in Joel and many other characters in the game for various reasons and to varying degrees. If I didn't, it would probably still be a good game, but that connection makes it more deep and interesting. Maybe I'm using this term wrong, but I think I'm referring to the human condition. We are all connected through our humanity and even though we don't always relate to one another, we are all unconsciously dealing with similar issues and emotions, just to different degrees. Many creative people, specifically writers, are great at being able to see themselves in others and use their own experiences to relate. People are that way and activities are similar. I've never rode a dragon, but I've rode a horse in a small circle as a kid. I've never shot zombies, but I've shot nerf guns. I've never lost a child, but I've lost a brother and a pet. I've never sat in a batmobile, but I've sat in fast cars. I've never been under the control of a tyrant, but I've been powerless in situations and have seen bullies. My point is that you don't have to be the exact same. Maybe I missed the point. Maybe I'm misinformed. I don't know. It's hard to explain what I'm trying to say clearly. A woman protagonist isn't a deterrent for me, but extremely smart and confident characters are to a certain extent. It's hard for me to relate completely, even if I enjoy the game. It's hard for me to relate to a party animal that loves drugs and socializing, but maybe I can relate to another facet of the character. Or maybe I can't I just simply won't relate. Doesn't mean it's a bad thing, but it doesn't really score any points in my book. I find it hard to believe that Colin has never related to any character in anything. Greg was on to something and I'm just sharing my thoughts. Sorry for the long comment lol.

Shoutout Sing Street, you're my boy Gettys

Colin I don't think it's so much about "relating to the character" as it is people play as the character, so they want to see themselves in the character, especially in an RPG. This hasn't just been an issue with female protagonist-led games, it was also a complaint I saw a lot about the Witcher by some people who said their only problem with the game was they didn't want to play as Geralt, they wanted to play as their own character, or themselves, so that they were the ones making the decisions. For me, as a man, it just depends. I'm certainly glad Nier: Automata has a female protagonist after seeing that game..... lol.... but I do think it's important to note that probably 90% of the people who own PS4's for AAA titles are men. So it's great that review sites need to hire women to review games, and then those women say "hey why aren't there more female characters? This industry must be sexist!" but those companies don't understand that just because they like to hire women to do the reviews doesn't mean that the consumer base they're reviewing for has just as many women in it as men. AAA games has always been more of a male interest, but lately certain SJWs want to pretend that's not the case and suddenly demand that every game panders to women, not men. That makes no sense when it's mostly men interested in the product. Also, if you look at AAA dev teams, they often put a woman in charge so they can say they're progressive, whether the woman is the most qualified or not, but the actual dev teams are likewise usually between 85% and 95% men. So just like I, as a straight man, am not going to march into the offices of some leading fashion brand, say Ivanka Trump's fashion brand (oops I said leading), and tell a company dominated by women and gay men to stop marketing their products to women and gay men, and start marketing them towards me, I don't think SJWs should be telling AAA video game developers, which are made up 90% of men who love video games making products for a consumer base which is 90% men, to start aiming their products at women. Why would say 100 men and 7 women who loved video games growing up, and as adults decided to make games which will be bought by 90% men regardless of what gender they make their game's protagonist, pander towards women? It just makes no sense. Does that mean the small percentage of women who do play AAA games can't enjoy them? Of course not, but they should enjoy them understanding that it's still a male-centric hobby and that they should expect 95% of AAA games they play to reflect that. It's just like how Americans can still enjoy Japanese animé, but they should understand that it's still made in Japan, for a Japanese audience first, so they need to either like, or put up with, the Japanese-centric elements of the medium, and not demand that Japanese animations adopt American ideals simply because they're American and they like to watch animé too. Or it's like the fashion industry as I said. As a straight man I can still enjoy coverage of Paris Fashion Week on TV, but when Ryan Seacrest is talking about who looked fat in what dress, or whatever, I should be mature enough to understand that even if that bores me, I shouldn't expect the coverage to change just to please me. I should understand that I am a minority audience for the medium, just like women are for AAA games, and so the coverage is not principally aimed at me. I am not the target audience. I can still enjoy it, but I am not the target audience. Certain SJW women seem to think just by virtue of them playing their first AAA game, that suddenly the medium belongs to them and should be catered to their interests over the men who make up 90% of the consumer base for the game. That's just self-absorbed, false thinking, and as I think I just outlined, we would never hold female-centric industries to that standard, so why the double-standard with video games?

Are they talking about SolidRev 's video?

Well, Dave Rubin did not create the term "Oppression Olympics"....

relate rɪˈleɪt/ verb 1. make or show a connection between. "the study examines social change within the city and relates it to developments in the country as a whole" synonyms: connect (with), associate (with), link (with), correlate (with), ally (with), couple (with), bracket (with); More 2. feel sympathy for or identify with. "kids related to him because he was so rebellious" synonyms: have a rapport with, get on (well) with, respond to, sympathize with, feel sympathy with, feel for, identify with, empathize with, connect with, understand, speak the same language as, be in tune with, be on the same wavelength as; informalhit it off with "many adolescents find it hard to relate to a stepfather"

I agree 100% with everyone of the opinions on this panel. Tim and Greg are right, if you find what you relate to in the story THAT is GREAT. Colin is right too though, you don't NEED content to be made for YOU. I feel a sense of entitlement in the gaming community where everyone thinks the content has to be made for them. If it isn't enjoyable to you, there is another game out there you can move on to.

I still dont understand how you can say that diversity for diversity sale is wrong. If a characters story has nothing to do with their race or gender or whatever, then what would you go to as the default status. How do you as a writer decide what colour they are if it doesn't matter. You have to diversify for diversity sake or else that would mean their story is related to their race/gender etc. What is a default video game character?

How can you cover this topic without inviting someone on the show ho is more invested into the topic? I mean, I'm sure the guys don't give half a shit about this, but its a huge opportunity to expand the shows viewerbase and have an open and honest debate.

Yeah, that question really weirded me out.

Game devs aren't obligated to represent sex or race in their games and ppl need to realize that. Colin was on point here. Sure you love to play as the well written characters but their gender doesn't matter. I'm a huge Valis fan, love the story of the heroine but I don't sit there going "I NEED TO RELATE TO HER!!!!! WISHE SHE WAS MALE!!!" Inclusivity/diversity for the sake of it is fucked and only damaging to art. Nobody sits there and two-dimensionally say "I need to relate to this one character." What Tim said is exactly how we see game stories: we relate to the situations the characters in and the character's reaction can make an impression on us. The social justice babies who complain about and nitpick all these games don't even play games so they need to shut the fuck up and of the games industry is so sexist and racist, why are they screaming on the internet instead of making inclusive games.

Colin is a fucking G.

Don't understand Colin. How do you NOT relate to a character? Anytime I play a video game I put myself in the character's shoes. Whether that's Last of Us, Half Life, Until Dawn or a racing game lol. I AM that character, and the decisions I make are based off of the situation "I" am in. That's why we play games, or watch movies. To escape real life and put ourselves in other shoes. It's not like watching another character. You ARE literally controlling them, making their decisions, dealing with their consequences. You are essentially being them. So yes, relating to a character in a video game is completely normal. Whether or not you relate to them totally depends on you, so if being a woman or being a child or being a different colour makes it hard to relate, that's fine. That's not my issue, but I understand if it's someone else's. If anything, I couldn't relate to Watch Dogs character because of his personality and hipster SJW BS. lol. That's MY problem. Then again Colin is fucked up because he likes inverted controls because apparently his mindset is really that he is the master of puppets pushing the sticks in their head and piloting them like a plane... Don't know anybody that thinks that way lmao. Maybe that's why he's so disconnected from it. Which is fine, but don't assume most people think like that and assume this person is weird for not being able to relate.

personally find it easier to relate to well written and believable characters regardless of gender, race or setting. I think as long as it doesn't feel forced and makes sense while not feeling like you are giving something up, diversity is greatly welcomed (Luke cage did a great job at this, didn't even realize there was racial controversy until I interneted) Should it be a requirement for your medium in order to accompany "SJW's" no, in some cases I actually think it is more offensive, but people saying that they can't relate to anyone other than someone of their own gender or race.....well they got problems

this is certainly not a feminist game

I think it's mind boggling so say that men and women are so different that one gender can't relate to the other. We all, as human beings, share goals, beliefs, and aspirations. This is why, as a male, I can relate to Kat in Gravity Rush for trying to do the right thing in the face of injustice, Femshep as I'm allowed to tailor her to my psyche, or Aloy, who, from what I gather, is trying to uncover things about herself that she never knew. You have to completely close off your natural flow of human emotion in favor of your perception of gender to not enjoy a game simply due to the fact that the protagonist is a different gender than yourself.

While I think Collin's argument is interesting, to me relating to something does not require sharing circumstances that are identical on a physical level. Just because the protagonist of Horizon lives in a post-apocalyptic future with mechanized cyborg animals and I do not does not mean I cannot relate to the character relationships developed as her story is told throughout the game, or the feelings she exhibits. I love the book Ender's Game because I can relate to the character of Ender on a fundamental level, despite the fact that I never left my family at age 6 to go to a battle school that orbits Earth in outer space. I relate to his feelings, his relationships, and his personality: not to his direct circumstances. If something happens in your life or has happened in your life parallels something that happens to one of your favorite characters, like for instance, maybe you relate to Percy Jackson because he was bullied growing up for struggling in school, and your an only child with a single mother and your father was never around. Maybe none of that is you, but you still relate to him because you relate to his desire to protect his loved ones and his loyalty to his friends. You don't have to be a demigod with water powers to relate to that.

I really don't think a character has to be the same gender as you in order for you to relate to that character. People often relate to characters on the basis of shared ideals or views (for example, a strong belief in honesty), but I really don't think that something, such as gender or race, should affect this. However, I do agree with Colin in that character set shouldn't be made different/diversified just for the sake of doing so.

In Horizon: You can relate to the feeling of not having a mother and thinking about her and who she is. You can relate to being an outcast, being different and being shunned for that difference. You can relate to people being sexist, degrading your abilities based on differences. You can relate to character motivations and feelings about subject matter. This relating to characters argument seen here by Colin doesn't make any sense. Colin missed the mark completely on this. The logic here is completely missing. Every form of entertainment has some element of relation for the viewer, reader, etc. I think he is mixing the topics here which are to completely different things. The sexist relation (diversity) aspect is different from the emotion relation aspect.

If a game has a character creator, I will always play a male character. A blank slate to start with will eventually lead to inserting elements of myself into it. An already established character is another story. Like many I don't need a character to be the same sex as I am to find them relatable if they are well written and interesting. That said I wouldn't disparage the people that do have this hang up. Plenty of games out there. Play what you want.

Watchdogs 2 related to me as an African American because very few games depict me as a protagonist. So if you're a minority you kinda look for a character that you can somewhat related to, to make the gaming experience more fun but still the game will be enjoyable regardless.

I didn't know this was an issue until I read the comments. Last week I thought it was just a one time thing with the question. Now I fear for the humanity when reading the comments. Why is it such a big deal to play as a female, black person, asian person etc? For ~30 years and until this day the white average male has dominated the game market by portaying in them way more than in movies. Is it such a bad thing to introduce some diversity? You're playing the game for the game's sake, not because you want to live through them. Last of Us Part 2 should be proof of this, or perhaps Horizon.

I agree with Colin. I think it's a non-issue. If a game has a black male for a protagonist, it's rarely important to the quality if a game. Of course, incorporating the culture that comes with ethnicity into the story and doing it well adds to it, but that's more a product of good writing than anything. Forced diversity and/or forced homogeneity isn't a good thing either. At that point, you're more focused on optics than anything of substance beyond that. You get cheap stories and badly developed characters.

Honestly I'd like to see a bit more diversity. Mainly because it makes for a broader range of unique and vibrant stories being told and themes being explored in video games. I also think it could go a long way to helping women feel they have a place in the video gaming community, which was damaged pretty severely by the GamerGate backlash, and inspire children by seeing people like themselves represented in the media. Also the argument that the letter-writer makes, suggesting that he wants fewer female protagonists because he can't relate to them is totally fucking hypocritical - if that's the case, then women are totally justified in wanting more female protagonists if they can't relate to male ones. In reality, we should be able to relate to people of both genders, and it speaks to some wider gender issues that some people can't, but too often the idea that 'gender doesn't matter' is used as an excuse to block progress in diversity and inclusivity, where the default remains white/male etc, in the same way that a 'colour-blind' approach to race ends up normalising existing forms of prejudice and racism. We also need to stop pretending that the race/gender of the protagonists of most video games is in any sense 'essential' to some directors' 'artistic vision' for the game, this is very rarely the case.

I believe "oppression Olympics" was started by a RU-vidr actually. Though I don't know for certain. I first heard it from Shoe0nHead.

Colin the only one with any common sense as usual

Lol it's hilarious to think that Collin is struggling to comprehend the concept. It's as simple as some people relate to fantasy. People play DnD, it's literally a role playing game, is it dumb to relate to the character you created? It's a game with rules, but people still relate. Of course not being able to relate cause it's a woman is ridiculous and that person needs to grow up. But relating to video games characters isn't hard to comprehend even if you yourself don't typically relate. I feel like he's arguing for the sake of arguing. Love ya

I think its more about projection than relation.

I'm a straight male who ALWAYS chooses the female character in video games. AMA. Lol

Colin's keeping it real

relate is the wrong word. Its more immersive for me to play as a girl because i dont grunt when i jump

Colin makes good points but comparing games to fiction isn't a good avenue, maybe visual art but not literature. People play games, which are interactive, for varying reasons. I am all for diversity with purpose in games but some people enjoy projecting themselves into games too e.g., choices in games, creating players in sports games, managing modes, etc... If you can't play a certain game because you can't relate to a gender or race, play a game that does. Colin always says there are too many games so one should be able to find one to play. Games for me are more about escapism into worlds that fascinate me, but I enjoy playing a good FIFA game with my created player too.

Haha that letter. I am a disabled female gamer whose fave game is The Witcher 3. How much can I 'relate' to the huge muscular beefcake swordmaster that is Geralt? LOADS actually because of the universal human experiences he has. Gender has nothing to do with gaming. Silly guy

We need more hedgehogs tbh

I agree with Colin (I don't play games to relate to characters) but I have to say that someone can relate to a character taht is not normal. For example, an orphan gamer would definitely relate to an orphan character even if that character had nothing else in common with the gamer (I know the exmple is a bit weird but it's the only one that came to my mind). The point is that just because at first glance there don't seem to be much in common between gamer and character doesn't mean there's nothing to relate to

I really don't care. Me playing games is like watching an interactive movie

I'm playing as a white male in Mass Effect because I'm a full-blown racist.

Colin is sat between two snakes.