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I tried to be an outlining writer, honestly I did. All my creative writing and literature instructors in grade school always stressed the outlines. Outlines are good, outlines keep you on track, so on and so forth. But eventually, I looked up one day and I realized that all I had were these wonderful ideas, and outlines. I didn’t have a single story. I just had a bunch of outlines. I wasn’t writing, I was just planning on writing. So I stopped, and I just started writing my damn book already.
@@Black_pearl_adrift Thing is, the story is going to change from what it was in the outline. So you don't have to bother getting the plot right at that stage.
@@musashi.miyamoyo Allow me to butt in as a Grammar Nazi Hunter, what you should have written is: "I Perfer the term "Grammar Nazi". Also, in my totally incorrect opinion, capitalizing God is more about reverence than grammar.
@Gormryjk If that’s true, then it was probably because he was writing A Dance with Dragons, didn’t know it was going to take him 6 years to finish it, didn’t know he was going to get bombarded by fans to get it done and certainly didn’t know that Winds of Winter still wouldn’t be done 14 years later and every day he was going to get hit with nastygrams about when it was going to get done. Plus he would have only been 57 years old vs 71. The guy has got to be completely worn down by now.
@@Whoopdido777 Exactly! And it was before the show and its total betrayal of his life's work. Poor George... Even with all his wealth and fame, his life must be mostly miserable right now.
Every single time GRRM is asked a question he relates it to his experience with some novel he read. Its just amazing how consistently he does that. It's like his entire life is told through books he's enjoyed. Wish I could remember the name of the author of a novel I read two weeks ago.
I feel like his writing style is basically a single player DnD game where he is also the DM. I think he doesn't know where the story is going exactly either and is letting his characters write his books for him though him
@@theriptide9461 It helps that on breaking bad has a team of writers, and at the begining of a new season they have people go over the highlights of the last season and they work from there.
I literally wrote a book of my own doing that... but it turned out so badly that I burned it in embarrassment. Even after the fourth re-edit. I will never try to write a book again.
@@mr.meadman theres a lot of books out there that I dont like, with tropes I cant stand and with plots that make no sense. But there are tons of people who enjoy those stories a lot too, you never know if your story is exactly what someone is looking for unless you put it out there. Now obviously it sounds like there are parts of your story that you really loved otherwise you wouldnt have rewritten and tried to salvage it. I'd say focus in on just one or two of those points and save the rest for another time.
dont even have to foreshadow to foreshadow, look at the simpsons 'predicting' real life. But all it takes is a memory then you can slip it in early, as a hint, and u have ideas working in the background on where u want to take it, because you know whats behind the scenes the audience doesn't. So you dont even need to try to foreshadow, because the behind the scenes action is all foreshadowing if it makes sense. Thats what I think anyways. I didnt try writing that often. But I only could when I was going with the flow of what i wanted to express and if I write an idea down that summarizes something I dont tend to go back to it, same with if i tell others about a writing idea I have. If I say it the magic dies.
I don’t understand how he can write these books without notes considering all the different plots and characters and locations/houses and histories of the houses and stuff. I don’t want to necessarily compare the two, but Tolkien kept extensive notes and scribblings and ramblings about his world, some of which Christopher Tolkien ultimately turned into The Silmarillion. So George is right. If he gets hit by a bus, nobody is finishing his story. At least Tolkien had notes so Christopher or whoever else could keep the stories going.
Yes but hasn't george says he's knows the ending? Multiple times he's said he knows the ending, he just having a hard time finding the most satisfying road there
@@DoubleO88 I’ve heard him say that multiple times in the past, but actually fairly recently I thought I heard him say he was thinking about changing his original path and even going so far as to go back and rewrite what he’s already written to fit his new ideas. Remember what he said about Game of Thrones. He said “You saw an ending, not necessarily THE ending” and from what I understand, George told Benioff and Weiss the broad strokes of the ending before the show even started filming so that was like a decade ago. It’s very possible he’s changed his mind since then.
@@Whoopdido777 hmm maybe, I hope he changed it before the season 8 backlash, I know many people hated what happened to dany but I hope the hate hasn't influenced George in any way, even if he has the exact sane ending his road to that ending would/would've been far faaaaar superior and more logical.
His ability to listen intently to the entire question is so pleasant to watch how he listens to the questions and his answers are absolute gold! He has so much history and humor entwined in his answers. He is so unique!
But a good DM blends both strategies. Have an outline for a satisfying adventure with an appropriate conclusion so the encounters in the beginning lead naturally to the climax at the end. But don't obsess over crafting a perfect detailed moment-to-moment chain of events and don't force your players to stick to your plans. It's a balance of preparing interesting ideas for the choices they are most likely to make and improvising detours or alternate endings when they surprise you. Some players will even follow some of your plans intentionally if they trust that you can create a fun experience.
As a DM since 1994 (and I mean DDDDMMMM, they practically force me to do it at this point), being flexible enough to prepare but also be able to improvise on the spot, is the single best path for DM'ing. As an author, I follow the same road!
@ You ok buddy? I am not being sarcastic, my first comment was written with the best intentions :) It would seem that D&D is simply not for you, and that's fine :P not everything IS for everyone. Of course, it could be that you simply haven't found the right people to sit down with!
I like outlines because I can spot what needs work before I through all the trouble of writing something word for word. I imagine it's like a backbone that start making the story around.
Ya its just a different way of doing things. I dont outline at first. I write until i get a feel for the story and then i do an outline to make sure i dont run into a wall but its a very broad outline which gives me plenty of freedom.
I can monitor pacing better as well. I am on about 50,000 words and I could tell I needed to edit and make changes. Also my outline informs whose pov is best for the moment.
Same here. Never got further than 18k words when I tried going at it with no outline. Now with an outline that gives me direction without being restrictive, I write 1,000 words a day consistently.
I don’t outline for two reasons. First, I have absolutely no idea what’s going to happen until I write it down. I typically write out of order when I get a scene that inspired me, then I get an idea of what happening and I can fill in all the pieces and the story reveals itself to me through the writing. Unless I write the story, I don’t know what’s happening. Second, I don’t worry about the “writing” until the second draft. I just word vomit and follow the story as it goes, not worrying about the prose or word choice or any of that stuff. When I finish, then I can mold it into shape and add all the details and make it presentable. There’s no point in me spending an hour trying to polish a paragraph if the next day I’m just going to rewrite it. I feel I’m a lot like George in that I want to read and experience the story, not just get an overview and know how everything turns out. I experience the story through my characters, so I want to discover it alongside them.
As someone with extremely minimal experience in writing, even I can relate to its inherent difficulty and time-consuming nature. Of course the gap between ADWD and TWOW is a long, long time to wait, but I am so damn tired of everyone who keeps ranting about how George is just lazy and isn't writing fast enough for their taste. These comments just come across as entitled and unsympathetic. Not to mention, if there's one thing the failure of GoT's last couple seasons should teach us, it's that even the longest of waits is still far preferable to a rushed and carelessly put together story.
You sell yourself short, my friend. You've just written a perfectly wonderful paragraph that details a very profound and meaningful truth about the inherent nature of storytelling. Cultivation is key. Allowing something to grow organically can often lead to inspiring results, and Martin's rumination, allowing his tales to grow and develop as an confused mess of dreams, until they bear fruit, leads to his genius which shines through in the first 5 seasons of the story of Game of Thrones and is gradually garbled and strangled to death right before it was ready to bloom as the story progressively decades in its written execution despite progressively expanding in budget and graphical beauty. The cinematography was the purest sense of genius I've ever seen on television, but the new writing was clearly rushed. Regardless, I highly recommend you try creating stories in your head before falling asleep and your dreams will create more of the story for you when you awake. That's one of the ways I write. If you write passively( in your mind) and constantly, you'll create masterpieces in no time when you actually sit down to type out your thoughts. Good luck, my friend.
@@Rhand007 I strongly disagree. The gardener method is less tactile, but certainly not limited. Structure is the nature of limiting. Outlines are like drawings... you create a sketch and fill it in without stepping over the lines, building upwards as you go with a strong sense of the final iteration. Gardening however can create a certain type of fruit, but of a variety of shapes sizes and with unexpected surprises and organic evolutions. That's why GOT is so intensely surprising. However, I personally write with both approaches. I place a wire frame around my hanging fines and watch the flowers bloom upwards and around, nipping the buds when needed. Essentially I start my stories by knowing the end, and working backwards to build a beginning. The middle is the journey, so it must be extremely entertaining to the point where the beginning and end unite as if it all made sense, but the reader still never saw it coming. I guess you could say topiary is a great place to start.
@@Rhand007 Yes, I already have. While it's not completely written, it is my magnum opus. A projected dozen or so volumes. Long series are not difficult to write. Quality and length simultaneously is difficult. I tend to create anywhere from 1 to 20 stories every week depndening on my depression level. 98% of which are purely for fun and never get written down, however my memory allows me to never forget a story. Bulk and quality however are different things. Martin is no hack genre writer, he's an artist who is practical enough to know you've got to give people copper before you can make gold. However, I've only ever received accolades for my shorter work and have yet to traditionally publish, I assure you, each award I've received is from a fruit or flower, nor a building. There's nothing wrong with either method, and both can yield the same results. Combining methods of the masters and inventing new methods for yourself is key to any art form.... If you intend on creating art. If you intend on creating entertainment and nothing else then just do outlines, don't live inside the story or make it a huge part of your life, because I assure you, it will not be remember for long by anyone else. Regardless, I ment no offense in disagreement, I just enjoy discussion.
@@Rhand007 Its not 10 million words, I said it's about dozen volumes. My goal word count is about 3-5 million words and no more. I dont want to create something so massive no one will finish it. I'd prefer less. But as I said earlier, I write from the end backwards. So the stage I'm in is first draft mode, because of its unconventional style and I'm working up the artistic side of it from ground zero. But as a writer I still have a lot of copper to finish to make money from it. I want to finish writing about 2 million words of a separate series of connected short stories I'm working on. It's all good practice. But it's not an argument...that was never my point. My point is to discuss and share advice about writing, seeing as I have experience. Also this conversation is exercise, as is all conversation. If you'd thought I was attempting to convince you of something, you've erred in interpreting my intent. What about you? Do you write as well? Genre or art? Either will pay bills eventually.😊
@@Rhand007 A well thought out comment can make or break someone's day. So no need to feel bad about it. Comments are still writing. Think of it as...engaged jounralling. lol. Regardless, it sounds like you have a lot of cool ideas. Take your time. Not everyone is prolific. Some of the best books are the concise ones. Next time you feel like writing a comment, think of a person from history you love who reminds you of the person you are thinking about commenting back to and instead, go to wikipedia and read a little about that historical person. (Checking sources of course.) It could be just 15 minutes of your day over the course of 10 years and the story will still be relevant cause its history! You can do it. I believe everybody can finish a story... if they really want to. Even GRRM. lol. I wish you the best of luck on whatever you choose to do.
As a writer myself, I can say it's virtually impossible to write a story without two things in place: knowing where the story is going, and how to get it there. Everything else should fit in fairly well with these two criteria. Also, notes. Take notes constantly. The devil is in the details, as they say - and I find that keeping a running commentary actually helps me to channel my thoughts and keep track of minor details as I progress. For the record, I don't fully outline my stories either, because it rapidly kills my motivation to continue when I try.
Different writers work differently and different things work for different people. I don’t outline because I have no idea where my story (eg the characters) is going. I’m going on the journey with my characters so I don’t know what’s on the other side of the hill until they get there. I might have some general idea where things are going, but my characters determine the path and sometimes we don’t even end up where I thought we were going to. If I don’t know what’s going to happen in chapter 10, I can’t outline about what’s going to happen in chapters 15 and 20.
This works off of a flawed assumption, that he doesn't know where it's going, he obviously does when he literally foreshadows every major twist and meticulously sets up every place the story goes to so it's always evolving in a way that makes perfect sense with what came before. Well, he clearly doesn't need to take notes as ASoIaF has an insanely good attention to detail no matter how he keeps that knowledge this fact remains.
authors can and have written amazing books without planing or taking notes, humans are different so what works for each one will differ - also, editing exists.
Sure It will be fast but it also become generic if he goes on that path, he clearly describes it as re writing the whole thing which is terrifying in his opinion, he wrote best of the stories while he is in the flow, lets hope it will be worth the wait.
I think the books would have a deep and unforeseeable legacy, future, and overall history if for some reason he died before finishing them. I would like to see him live many years and write more books, but imagine if he died now. It would spur on some very interesting attempts at creations/collaborations from other writers/TV creators. But, overall, Mr. Martin is a literary genius and is better appreciated above rather than below ground. He’s a legend alone for creating the book character of Euron
Nah, he would have just broken the outline. You can tell especially in the last couple of books that he got caught up with some new ideas and characters and decided to pursue those storylines, which were probably not originally part of the plan. If he'd outlined, he still would have done this.
Think of all the television shows that started out fantastic, and then for some reason went off the rails; only to find out the writers had no idea of how the show was going to end, and so they started basically making it up as they went along. This is why a general outline is a good idea; of course a really incompetent person or person's can screw that up as well, so make sure to give your outline to people who actually have some talent.
I wouldn't put all the blame on the writers. There is an expectation in television. The businessmen that finance those shows expect them to continue as long as an audience is still watching. Some writers accept this and focus on writing good episodes or seasons. Other writers plan a good ending to a short series but are forced to improvise a longer story when the show becomes an unexpected success.
Here's why: not outlining allows him to keep branching out in endless subplots without ever having to let go of them and then he can continue living with all of them like a big happy expanding family, until HE dies, subverting any expectation anyone might have harboured, that he was ever going to finish off any of it ...
The advantage of not outlining is that the story grows organically, and feels and reads naturally. Nothing is shoehorned. Characters act logically. The disadvantage is that it's harder to connect plots without making big holes.
You aren't married to your outline. To paraphrase the pirate's, An outline isn't a rigid rule so much as a suggestion. Just like a map. You can see a route to take to your destination; but it doesn't mean you can't choose another. The idea of a work of fiction necessarily being "endless" is the way fanfiction and people writing for themselves and their own enjoyment think, not someone writing for actual public consumption. We tend to want stories to actually be going someplace.
It's a great relief to know other writers don't use outlines :) My writing process is this: I think about the characters, the starting point, and the endpoint. Then I think about all the things that NEED to happen to get from point A to point B. Then I think about all the things that COULD happen between all the stuff that needs to happen. Then I start to play out different scenarios in my mind, like little movies. When I see a movie I like, I catalog it in my mind for later and start to think of another little movie, repeat, repeat, repeat, etc. When I have enough little movies to get me from point A to point B while remaining highly entertained all the way along, I sit down for the first time and begin to write/type. At that point, it's just pouring what's already written from my head to the page. Once the typing starts, I can write a 400-500 page book in about 4 weeks because I don't have to think about anything. I'm just doing dictation from my memory.
I relate to this a lot - especially the part about create ‘little movies’ in my head, and chaining the, from point A to B, as well as knowing how it ends before it begins, and leading it towards that.
This. I'm so tired of all this armchair advise that "you can't write without a detailed outline." No, _you_ can't write without a detailed outline. Personally, I do some bare bones sketches and outlines, and then I dive in. I will outline the scenes and chapters as I write them, and I make sure everything is moving the story and the characters forward. Just because one doesn't outline, doesn't mean their story has to meander all over the place. Though it does help that I've, personally, internalized a ton of story structure through reading and writing.
I no longer have to feel bad about not writing an outline! As long as my effort is guided towards writing a good story, all that matters is that I get there, not how I do it! Brilliant advice that was also relatable asf! :D
But keep in mind that you have to have a general idea of the story. Especially if it’s a series. I hate outlined, but I’ve come to realise that they’re needed or else you’ll end up with a story with no direction
1:04 This is a challenge for me too lol. I think of these stories and outline them in my head and when it comes to writing I don't have that same fire as I did when I was just imagining it.
I used to write like this when I was 15 just as I go along, 15 years later at 30 I know i need an outline and plot points so the story makes sense but you know what, listening to george I think a mixture of both is best. Start with your word for word story, maybe write 1000 to 2000 words so you get a feel of your story and what you want to write and what the world is like, then after you've gotten quite deep and you realise you have multiple characters, locations and plot points, you can start drafting an outline and expand the world. That is litrally how george wrote game of thrones, he started with the Starks finding the dire wolfs, and we all know the finished product started way earlier than that with Royce and Co at the wall. Hmm might help with my writers block, might go back to my 15 year old way of writing.
I think sometimes a great story just kind of comes to you out of the blue and you can crank it out without much of an outline. Some of my early work was like that, but you can't rely on that magic to last forever. Learning how to use an outline to organize my story when its not all there off the bat was an important part of my growth as a writer
I hate creating outlines and would be what George calls a "gardener" .. but George really needed an outline after he passed the second or third book and decided he wanted to go on... because with the amount of characters and plots he's going on it must be very hard to keep writing esp a decade later trying to remember every character and motivation and plot line and where you wanted it to go.
Having finished a novel that took several years, I fully understand George's "gardener vs. architect" thing now. I had main plot points and an ending outlined, much of which was out the window anyway by third draft. Certain characters practically became different people.
As an author myself? I write outlines for the same reason GRRM probably should: when you have a series dealing with multiple story-lines and POVs, it can be -extremely- difficult to "pantser" (as we call it in the writing industry) the series effectively. Instead, as GRRM has done, authors will often write themselves into corners and have a hell of a time figuring out how to fix the mess they've put their plotline and characters into. Well, outlining may not be fun or exciting, but it can help alleviate a lot of that hassle. Also, there's no rule saying you MUST stick to your outline; it's a tool to help get the story out more quickly and more cohesively than pantsing the series. Not every writer has to do this (Stephen King doesn't outline, for example), but for someone who has trouble with keeping plotlines and relative characters on page vs. irrelevant characters... yeah, it helps a lot. And I might be a bitch for saying so, but with GRRM's writing track record of "slow as cold molasses", maybe he shouldn't scorn the method so damned often.
Glad someone said it so I didn’t have to type it out. I know to many new writers who make the same complaint as George about outlines “ruining spontaneity”...when in reality it can often boost your creativity once you are no longer paralyzed by too many possibilities. George writes good stuff, but the poor guy’s also screwed himself over. I didn’t know that King doesn’t outline either, but it totally makes sense given how many of his books go on way too long and often have okayish endings.
@@wyatt6403 yeah and don't forget the super creepy and cringy shit he writes sometimes like in IT with the kids. If you've read it, you will know what i'm talking about lol. Its pretty bad
I highly recommend Ellen Brock's channel she has a video about exactly this! Some people don't outline, some outline extensively, lots are in the middle.
@@keirscott-schrueder5625 Outlines can be edited and changed during the writing process, and i rather a complete little-less greater series than an incomplete one(that may never be completed)
As a pantser myself, the thing is that when you write, you have no (or some) idea of where the story is going. Its like you are binging the novel while writing it. Yes, you have some idea where your story is going, you can treat those ideas like "spoilers" for a movie. You know you are getting there, you just don't know how. I tried plotting and he's right! I don't feel like writing the story after the outline is done.
I personally like to do general outlines where I know where things will go, but not the specifics. Then, I can still get the feel for scenes and whatnot. Plus, you can break from the outline sometimes too.
I love watching these videos of George. Could listen to the man all day. This video especially, everything he was saying about how he writes I was just thinking "That's me! That's how I write!". I tried to do outlines once or twice, and it just felt wrong and rigid. There are no outlines in real life (or at least, those that there are almost never go to plan), and I think it feels terribly unnatural to try and write with one.
@james paul I don't quite get your train of thought here. If you mean the end of A Song of Ice and Fire (only the TV series and first book are called (A) Game of Thrones) will be terrible because there's no outline, that doesn't make sense. Having no outline doesn't mean the same thing as having no plan. When I write I have a plan for what the major plot beats will be, and George has said the same of his own writing. An outline is different; an outline is a detailed breakdown of what happens from scene to scene. Where a plan of the basic overarching story is easy to keep to, and can still make it perfectly natural, an outline is too in-depth to allow for the inclusion of the ideas that will naturally come for you while you're writing the actual story. With a plan but not an outline, you can say "this isn't quite working this way, if I want to achieve that I'll have to do it a different way", which allows you to reach your goal without the story feeling forced. George absolutely has a plan for where the series is going to end, and I don't doubt he's been laying hints to it from book 1. I know people don't have faith in the books after what happened to the show, but I think if anyone can pull off a good ending for a series like this, it's GRRM, and I think not having a rigid outline is definitely an advantage there. (then again, whether or not an ending is "bad" is entirely subjective to the reader/viewer and will differ from person to person. Although they are few, and I don't understand how they managed it, there are people who enjoyed the last season of GoT)
@james paul I'm 99% certain it won't be the same ending even if some of the same events take place. And if some of the same events do take place, I'm confident that GRRM can make them work. One of the largest problems with Season 8 was the complete lack of any form of foreshadowing for what happened, as well as the disregard of character development and foreshadowing from earlier series. Many of the plot elements they had in Season 8 could have worked if it had been Season 10 instead, and we'd had 2 whole seasons foreshadowing and building up that stuff (although I admit there was also a lot of stuff in Season 8 that was just utter shit, such as the treatments of Varys and Jaime). But we didn't get that, because D&D were lazy and wanted to move on.
@@murdomaclachlan I usually write using an outline. Like, yes, in my mind I see the battles, the great halls and people doing their things. But I am afraid of being able to forget something really important or great, so I write it down before I forget it. Then, in the act of writing, I'll probably notice other things, and some will differ from the original scheme: new subplots, new supporting characters, events, and details will appear. As I write, I like those things too much, but also and usually my mind keeps working on what's next, so I know where the story is going even with these changes and additions. Of course, they make the story and the world richer, and perhaps later they will become very relevant. That is what I love. I don't know, I like to create that scheme, and that throughout the story, the same scheme is broken due to the size of the new unexpected elements.
@@pedroalitovar6624 I certainly write down any little ideas I get. Like, sometimes a scene will come to me that I know fits in somewhere later, but I'm just not sure where, so I write that and then when I've progressed a bit I find the right place to slot it, but I've never been able to do a full outline. Then again, that's one of the beauties of writing; everyone does it their own way.
I agree. The first book will always be a masterpiece bec that was the one he planned out the most. The last 2 books were really hard to get thru and u can tell it's cause there isnt a coherent plan in place at all.
I haven't written anything major at all, but I'm an aspiring one, and honestly, I have zero clue how anyone can just write without a plan. It seems insane to me. I've planned virtually whole TV seriese that'll probably never get made. But it seems to me the ending is the most important. It's like the largest pole on the ground. It can be one image even, but the ending is the relentless destination thar the entire story has to chug towards, to me it's what gives it the drive to write it. (Shrugs)
I like planning things out way more, because it makes it very easy to keep a vision on the overall intertextuality. In my experience, if you plan things out, every single thing feels like a convergence point of references to other works, and yet also whole. Every single word has meaning, which isn't as much the case with fluent writing.
Most writers of successful material don't know how their stories will end from the start. Look at what happened to the show once they had a plan to finish it, everything starts feeling rushed and forced to connect the dots that need connecting.
Since a Dance with Dragons was published, his frickin' personal assistant and an author buddy (James S. A. Corey) is poised to finish an entire 9 book series (totaling over 5,500 pages) before the next book in Martin's series. I jumped ship from A Song of Ice and Fire as soon as I started reading The Expanse and haven't looked back. The Expanse novels are better.
There's a really big disadvantage or 'con' in writing without outlines though. Especially for multiple POV stories. By not having an outline the story will climax similarly to how we saw Game of Thrones final season climaxed. When you have so much characters and not knowing where they're heading, you're going to continue go on and on and buildup a lot of scenes and even put in more characters and scenes that require an excessive amount of tidying up later on. Plenty of which won't matter much in the end game. OR you end up hurriedly offing characters or plots without much logic or uniqueness (like GoTS8) when it gets to the final act. Either way, when a story is as massive as ASOIAF, the ending will be the absolute hardest thing to pull of effectively. I wish you well Sir George.
You can’t compare the TV show to the books. The books can afford to be more meandering, the TV show is trying to pack it all into 10 episodes will cliff hangers, season finales, etc. The books took breaks from characters for entire books to bring all the character development into better alignment and give focus and importance to the particular POV of subject. Add to this, the writers of the TV show showed their limitations when having to go off cannon.
I think for this time around G R R Martin can learn to write a little bit of outline, it will benefit him a lot. Just so he can finish the fricking 8th book
@@kevinroque5374 He's already "succeeded" in the sense that people already love the books he's finished. He could go on to right a bunch of garbage or he could die before finishing the series (in which case someone else would almost certainly step in to conclude things in some way, for better or worse), but that can't retroactively ruin the books that already exist.
@@TheSquareOnes I actually agree with you that he has already way over succeeded as a writer. I'm only speaking on behalf of people who like to view a series in its entirety; it follows a saying from gestalt psychology: "The whole is greater than the mere summation of its parts."
The main reason why I never got into Game of Thrones (and Lost) is that when I heard how huge and convoluted the story was, I wanted to wait and see if he manages to wrap up those dozens of threads and the story in a satisfying manner. Because a bad ending can certainly ruin the whole story.
He's definitely never going to finish the series. This lack out of outlining has come back to bite him in the ass, you get the feeling that the story has gotten away from him a bit. He knows how he wants to end it, but he doesn't know how to get from where we are at now to the ending in a convincing and quality manner.
It's so annoying because he clearly has an excellent set up in the first books for the wider storyline, especially regarding Jon Snow, but he seems to get so distracted and attached to the other minor characters. Personally I also think he is demoralized that so many people figured out many of his big twists so he has adopted a "why bother" attitude. I hate to say it.
I think George has, at least, a general outline of how the series is supposed to end. But just like he said, it's in his head and he doesn't write it down.
@Jimmy That's definitely not true. A film is not like superior to a book, it's completely different. That's why there's also successful novels based on films. It's different. The Star Wars books are immensely successful too, and taken seriously very much by a LOT of people. Me obviously included. It's even a tad bit ironic, because of all things, the novelization of Episode III is one of the most popular Star Wars novels. And either way, if he's gonna publish that book, no matter when, no matter its quality, it's gonna be a hit. Undoubtedly.
As someone who actually uses this same method, a little insight about this method he didn’t say; the long amount of time it takes is less to do with not writing and more to do with momentary revision. This method still HAS revision, it’s just that writers who work this revise whatever section they’re currently on BEFORE moving on, rather than writing one big expansive draft than practically having to redo the whole thing again because you weren’t really focused on the individual moments the first time around.
But that's why people use MULTIPLE drafts... You don't waste all your time writing a "big expansive draft" in the beginning. You start with a very brief outline listing pivotal moments that could lead to a natural climax. Each iteration becomes more granular. If you realize that a character's behavior, motivations, or the pacing of the events are not working, you can easily adjust the rest of your plans EARLY in the process without sacrificing much effort. If you only rely on revising each chunk of the story, from beginning to end, you still end up with a mess of a plot without a satisfying conclusion. Either you race through all the loose ends, destroying the pacing, or you force your characters to take an unnatural 90 degree turn in order to get back on track when you finally understand how they fit into the ending. In general, you want to balance both strategies. Enough spontaneity to create believable and interesting characters/events, and sufficient overall planning to bring the story to a satisfying and foreshadowed conclusion. Notes and planning are even more important when trying to keep track of an immense world and cast of characters.
@@SubjectiveObserver So by your own logic, all 5 previous books are "messes of plots with no logical conclusions" that "don't work." I quite frankly disagree.
George RR Martin did admit that he outlines his own maps and timelines. So in a way, those are outlines. And he also admits that he has some notebooks. But although George may have this 'natural' gift, I still advise most of you to make your outlines so you have something to remind you if you lose track. Always come prepared.
I think it's more of a balance. Outines do not kill spontaneity, and new ideas plop up constantly while you are writing your story, so you can change the outline, that'S what it is for. I always think you need to have a general idea where you're going. At least that's how i do it. But i'm just an amateur, so who knows.
@@darkstar4494 It *is* one of the reasons, though. Look up the 'Meerenese Knot', a term Martin used to describe problems he had which delayed the publication of A Dance With Dragons for so many years, which was ultimately caused by lack of outlines. Martin has alluded to having similar problems with Winds of Winter.
James M ok fair enough, his books would be completed faster with a more organized writing process. I’m just saying that’s not the only reason the last 2 are taking so long.
Outlines are very important when you're concluding the books, because now if you didn't have a concrete plan of how to tie the threads together, it really shows. When you're writing something complex without a plan, the chances are high you'll write yourself into a corner.
I make a general outline with notes for my main story. But there are tons of twists and turns and spontaneous events and decisions that occur throughout and between. It's worked super well for me. For some of my stories I outline more and for some less. Some people need outlines, others loathe them. Good to experiment, in my opinion.
This view and lack of outlining ultimately stopped George R.R. Martin from finishing A Song of Ice and Fire. He added too many characters in A Feast for Crows while allowing the established ones to end up in situations where he had no idea how to get them back on course. The lesson is that it's important to be both a gardener and architect - otherwise the story gets away from you.
GRRM has a degree in journalism, he knows all of this. That you have to write an outline is something you learn in high school. Which makes the whole debacle even worse.
@@xasthurwithin4178 Exactly, and he HAD an outline back when he started it in the 90s - which is why the first 3 books were so phenomenal. Feast of Crows/Dance with Dragons is where he screwed up with his decision to not do a time jump and from there it got away from him. As a result it seems after 20 years he's just lost his passion/interest in the series.
George doesn't owe any one shit. It's amazing how people get mad at him for not finishing something few people would be capable of creating in the first place.
That's exactly how I work on my books 😱...! Like, outlines, to me, make everything so mechanical and predictable, instead of natural and with spontaneity...
GRRM problem is that of creating a whole generation of wattpad writers who's gonna think it is smart to perpetuate all the inherent flaws of the man. Not having outline goes against everything metacritically written since Plato or Aristotle
I understand what he's saying about writing to tell the story instead of organizing it in shorthand, then "retelling" it. I started out a story just writing, no organization, but as it grew it became mentally unmanageable and I had to slow down and gather ideas. I have to take notes and outline or I'll forget them. But it's fun because shorthand is fragments. I can build on them and add roads connecting different people, places, and ideas. I appreciate how, no matter how big his ideas become, as a writer he continues like a massive, complex, but organized storm of story-telling.
Maybe you should have done a tad more outlining, George. Maybe leaned more into being an architect. Not saying you have to only be a gardener, but given your track record some architectural drawings might have helped. A lot of people are saying they don't use outlines on here, or are excusing George for not using one. But this video was posted two years ago before a friggin pandemic basically forced George to write, and still no book in sight. For his complex storytelling, more outlining might have helped him avoid the narrative blunders he made after ASOS that really slowed him down. And a lot of writers DO use outlines, at least loose ones. Tolkien had a similarly complex world and he used a lot of outlines.
His deal with Satan is that he CAN'T die until he finishes the books! You guys are being played because this man is gonna live forever and you'll never read the ending
He told D&D the ending we saw in season 8 a decade ago. That's not an outline, that's just his general idea how he wants the story to end, apparently it's not well-received. George has no idea how to get there, just like D&D had so they botched it, because they had to do his job which they didn't expect to do.
