In this video we touch on a touchy subject. Playing gigs for exposure. My opinion on this subject and how it’s effects the industry #roadstories #exposuregigs #gigsforexposure #gigsfornopay #musician #promusician #prodrummer
@@drumteacher43 hey Tim , been out all day , he laughed but check this out ? he was my age ,multi millionaire and? got 4 th stage "in operable' brain cancer and was dead in a year I left truck driving permanently not long after as Alanis says ? "isn't it ironic ,don't ya think ?"
As a band back in the early 80's we would get paid $1000 to $1200 for a two day weekend. Playing for free to entertain people devalues you and others like you. If you are there as the draw to entertain people, you need to be paid.
@@drumteacher43 So Tim, love your vids, recently found your channel. I just joined a new original band called Seven Thunders. We from Toronto. Can find us on reverbation. We just in the process of setting up the necessary social media accounts. Great creative band. We of the classic rock genre. Was wondering if you have any info on places to play in the GTA for new original bands. Maybe it would make a good vid topic?
@VangeliRock thanks man, Queen st and the entertainment district in Toronto play host to many indie or original music bands. The Cameron and Lee’s palace come to mind but there are others on Queen street and of course elsewhere. Research is super important. You need a proper video, pictures/ promo package. You can direct call or find out if they have any showcases for new bands coming up. Agents don’t touch original bands unless they are big in the indie scene and have a following. It’s a slow climb. I have to be honest the scene for original music has really dropped dramatically since the 2000’s. It was thriving 80’s-2000’s. But Hope that helps
I've heard that in some prestigious bars in Nashville, you have to pay them to play in it. And you have to pay them to use their PA. I don't know how true it is, but it is worse than playing for free. It takes exposure to a new crap level.
I spoke to my Nashville guitarist friend. He said it only exists if bands are willing to pay. Most aren’t so this is sort of an urban myth. I know I never would.
Good luck getting exposure from social media, its competitive to the extreme. You have to have a marketing budget for sure A current modern musician has to do it all, know your DAW, compose, how to mix and master and a bit of everything. Knowing some legal babble is a bonus. Its without saying most passionate musicians are going to have to make coin doing other things. In all adjacent music incomes ie production cues, including live performances, the bar is high. I would say consistency matters. Still no recipe for success..... I know musicians and composers who are putting more effort and money in, than the coin returned. That is the way it is and other creative fields these days
Playing for the door? The owners let a lot of their Regs in without paying. Same with the tickets sold in advance. We will do a a Cover charge show if one of our people are at the door collecting and we have a guaranteed amount for the night. Exposure Gigs are Crap and Devalue the system. If you start doing them you won't get anywhere. We are almost neighbors Tim. I live in Oakville. I am enjoying your Videos.
I had to play for no money for an audition for a club. They got our work for free that night, but we never got the paid gig in their rotation. I promise myself never to do these types of gigs again, and I'm in a pro classic rock band.And I hate doing the benefit gigs too.I don't mind it once or twice a year but when the charity takes advantage of the bands good nature for free gigs and not even give some money for transportation,it's just a waste of my time and the bands time. There's a limit on how much you can donate your time when it starts to be taken for granted that your band can do this for very little or no money Exposure my ass, it's just a waste of gas personal money, wear and tear on the equipment, and in some cases some drunk wants to come up and play a song,and you got to tell that person no. It's a waste of time and effort. If the project is done right, it could be fun, If not well you just have to suck it up and let you be professional about it. Thanks again.
Hi Tim, Just wondering about your thoughts regarding bars/venues that don’t pay the band but allow the band to charge cover at the door for their payment for playing.
Yes these technically are ticketed venue gigs. I’ve done many especially on queen st and in the entertainment district in Toronto. Also these are often original bands and they split the door charge with the venue ( usually 50/50 or 60/40 in favour of venue) you won’t make much money usually but… you are still charging and can make money for the night of enough people show up. I’ve also done wage with a door charge gigs so you might make $100 guaranteed Plus money off ticket sales. This is better if you can negotiate that!! It I’m ok with these types of gigs did many back in the 80/90/2000’s
An old drum teacher of mine (now a well known UK session player) told me a story of how students coming out of drum school were offering to play sessions for free to break into the industry. Of course most producers probably aren't going to take a punt on an unknown person, they have the budget to stick to the well tested pros, who they know will deliver. I stopped playing gigs for free years ago, I need to at least fill the car up on the way home and replace some sticks and heads.
"I am worth your respect (which may involve money). If you can't respect that? I don't think we should be doing business together then." - Sum Dood The music buiz (in my experience) is a people game. Which means trying to look at it like a systematic numbers game is going to eventually fail you. That being said I treated my shows like a business, and while maybe I couldn't get all of it back in cash? (Food, gas money, the rental of my personal equipment etc). Someone who's scamming you won't even respect you for having those principles. If I'm getting in business with you? I'd be an asshole if I was just using you for money. So why would it be fair for them to treat me that way? It's a harsh life lesson that takes at least a few mistakes to really learn well😅. But notice it didn't start to get noticeably bad around the time AOL came around? 😊 Before you had options, but definitely by the 2000's is kinda shifted into becoming more of the norm? (Personally I blame the rent of these spaces and cultural move away from alcohol. Desperate people come up with scams to compensate.) Loved it ❤ you're doing great 👍 keep going!
I can see myself going to the bank with a pitcher of beer and a bucket of chicken, putting it on the counter and saying "Here's my mortgage payment!" just to see how they react.
What about getting paid from the door money? I just read the book Jeff Healey's drummer wrote about them and he said when they were playing in TO they did shows in bars for the door money, just curious? Maybe another video? As an armature hobby musician I am enjoying your channel.
Usually how the door works is you split the $$ with the venue. It’s not often you get 100% of money it’s usually 50/50 or 60/40 ( venue getting 60) if you have multiple bands on the bill then your further splitting the door with other bands. This can be difficult but it all depends on how many people show up. Also this mainly happens in the original music scene. I remember playing Lee’s Palace in Toronto and it was 4 bands plus the venue sharing the money. I made $35, lol brutal night. Glad you’re enjoying the channel!! 😎
Without yet watching the video , my opinion is . if your band isnt getting paid gigs , practice more. When your undeniably good itll be nothing but paid gigs.
THE ONLY INTANCE YOU PLAY FOR EXPOSURE IS IF YOU HAVE A BATCH OF ORIGINAL SONGS AND YOU GET CALLED TO OPEN FOR A HUGE ACT LIKE THE ROLLING STONES OR THE FOO FIGHTERS. AT A ARENA ,STADIUM OR LARGE AMPETHEATRE.. ASIDE FROM THAT , SHOW ME SOME MONEY !!
@mattmasonoklahoma can you explain this further? I’m sure they are making way more than 25k for a show! I saw the pay for a Shania Twain show and it was in Toronto. She pulled in 3 million it had to pay for everything from there - band, sound, lights, etc etc. she still made good money in the end
@@drumteacher43 im referring to what the FooFighters try and charge the opening act for the “priveledge” to warm up at the local enormodome. 100 years ago i started a band with one my friends i grew up playing with. after a few years he dropped out to go the family/corporate route meanwhile ive kept sluggin it out. his kids grew up n i was needing a bass player so he jumped back in the saddle. just so happens he worked for big evil corp and they were sponsoring the foos tour. hes like oh yea i know the higher ups from all these years at the job.. im gonna get us on with the Foo Fighters when they come to town. im like ok let me know how that works out…knowing what a “buy on” means and so..i was curious to see what he found out. He called some the big wigs and came to me completely dejected saying that if you wanna warm up for the FOO Fighters its all yours..all you have to do is PAY 25k…PER NITE! i absolutely knew it was gonna be stupid but i wanted him to realize what the playing field really is these days. sad to say, that was pretty much the end for him and his return to the band. the whole idea doin shows like that is if you can go up there n kick ass, then come back on your own in a few months to the biggest club in each town you warmed up in then maybe you gotta shot at building something. lets say you wanna do 10 cities in the midwest like that and you start puttin pen to paper and realize its gonna be 250k and you havent even left the driveway! very unlikely youll even recoup anywhere close to HALF of that each night on merch of which these greedy fucks usually want 20-40% at those big shows. im proud to say ive never paid to play and when i DO get on with a national i absolutely insist on keeping ALL my merch. many times thats all youre gonna get…its a nasty biz, kids…👀
A lot of bars owners do not recognize a good band when they hear one - as long as the bar is full and they are making money they are happy. And for bands - its nothing to celebrate when you fill a bar in your local town with friends and family - those people come because they want to support you not because your band is good - that is two different things. Have your band book a gig in a town where nobody knows you and you have to get by on your talent alone - that is a better reflection of your abilities. Bands need to draw a line in the sand when it comes to thier value - know what you are worth and charge accordingly. If you are starting out play anywhere , anytime but dont play for free Assume you play for free and the gig was a huge sucess - why would the bar owner pay you anything when you just played for free? If he pays you anything it will be undervalued because you have already undervalued your skills - once you do that it is impossible to negotiate a fair price, My two cents
@@Nigel-ry1po freedom Train have been on the scene longer than any Hamilton band. I know those guys. They don’t gig nearly as much as they use too but they are just a local cover band with a local following
I started my live music channel as a hobby and an intention to help artists who may not have the money to create great promotional videos. I make it clear to them that I am just starting to learn an hope to get better and better. I've been asking them to volunteer their time for the shoot and I edit/produce the video for free. They can keep the copy to do whatever they want. Am I doing a disservice to the musicians by not paying them. If I am, what is a fair payment to them? Also am I harming professionals who would charger for recording and editing a video? I really am struggling with this as my kids and friends are musicians.
Ok so you are shooting a promo video of a band performing and they get the video for free? Then they are able to use it online for band promotion? But you are new to this. Am I correct?
@@drumteacher43 Yes I only started recording music and editing videos. They can do whatever they want with it. But what happens when a video becomes super viral on my channel?
Glad you like the video. I’ve done many open mic’s and that’s a different thing because the actual core musicians or band that’s hosting the open mic/jam night gets paid. It’s people who want to come up and play with the band that are not getting paid. I’ve done many of these in Toronto and Hamilton as the pro band. Didn’t really have to many drummers come up mainly vocalists and guitarist’s
@@drumteacher43 yes it is different. But the fact is without musicians signing up there is no open mic event. The venue is making money at minimum from drink sales. Agreed it's mostly vocalists and guitarists and the host musician / band gets paid.
Great topic but saying that cheap bands are stealing money from the pros comes across as self-serving. It’s a free market out there: who decides what is a “pro-musician”. If a band is cheap and they pack the place then there is a chance to move up to better venues and bigger pay-cheques, all the while gaining the necessary stage experience and chops required to be “pro”….even though they might actually suck! Punk rock? Hello!! If a band markets themselves as “pro” but can’t work a room then their price goes down pretty quick in this era of Social media. General audiences these days can’t distinguish between pro and semi-pro players anyway, not to mention live vs auto-tune/backing tracks etc. Hello Dua Lipa, Ed Sheeran etc etc. That’s why there’s no bar bands anymore. Can only add that when we did play for $300 it was at restaurants/bars that only hired DJ’s before, so maybe in some ways we were opening doors for pro-bands. Keep the videos coming!
The reason I said cheaper bands are charging to low is because.. better band with higher quality players can’t compete on a financial level with bands that purposefully undercut just to get a gig. Undercutting hurts all bands so it’s not completely self serving. Imagine having a band play for $300 then a much better stronger following more engrained I. The convene band shows up asking for $1000 and the owner sais “ I can get so and so for $300! All musicians that work in the biz understand that the cheaper band is cutting the throats of all players moving forward. Because even though the owner knows he should pay higher wages to good bands he doesn’t to save a buck. This hurts the entire industry!! And it’s very difficult to recover. That’s why good bands go to tribute and ticketed venues and corporate gigs to pay the bills!
@@drumteacher43 …. but actually, the real competition these days isn’t with other 3 member bands charging 1/3 the price, it’s against one guy with a drum machine and looping pedal charging 1/3 the price while occupying 1/4 of the space and a much less disruptive setup/teardown. “Name” DJ’s the preferred option for most events now anyway. Times have changed, hopefully things will swing back to live bands someday.
I som do gigs for very little or no money with my all original band. a cover band ,no way. esp if I have to play the usual garbage tunes lol. its a job at that point for me. id rather be in my jam space rocking out some rush etc with friends
Young bands have young, immature, inexperienced minds perpetuating the reality of being manipulated for exposure. Playing for free for exposure after 25 years of age is “Band Practice” on stage; If that’s your standard gig, it’s better to play in your parent’s garage.
