Let's do one more test drive before calling the customer and giving them a detailed estimate for repairs. Turns out this car can still be made to run decently well without breaking the bank :) Enjoy! Ivan
@@neilmurphy845 There are a few on RU-vid for this engine. The most complete I have seen was on a Traverse in vehicle. Search for Traverse Timing Chain replacement. It's a multi part video since it's a long long job.
I was kinda hoping to see a famous gm 3.6 liter timing chain replacement video. Would’ve made for some great content but I’m glad you saved your customer some money great job!
Very smart decision! Your talent has given the customer some good options.You have to know when to cut your losses. Like you said ,drive it a year or two more ,then dump it
Another great diagnostic video by the Russian Master! Congrats 🎉 on 90k subs Ivan...100k just around the corner! Thanks for your truly informative channel. Appreciate you sharing you talents!
cant drive a vehicle in new york with a check engine light during inspection ! maybe in PA is ok! great content Ivan I have learned alot!!!! keep it coming
I don’t understand how u had the exhaust cam pegged so far off with the scope. Great vid as usual. U make us think. That is the sign of a good teacher.
With the GM v6, Gm have software patches to reset chain stretch parameter. I am not sure about the Suzuki version but it would be worth looking to see if the software version in this car is the most recent as it may get rid of the engine light. Obviously this is a patch and you have to live with the poor performance issues and eventually it will deteriorate to the point where it will need to be replaced. As for cost of repairs, I always look at it as this is your cost of transportation and your choice is to fix it or replace it or walk or ride a bike or take public transport or pay more in operating costs and fuel and this is the customers choice. And if they don’t care about their environmental impact then we know which way they will go. To me maintaining a good second hand vehicle has less environmental damage than manufacturing a new car unless you go electric and your electricity supply is from a low emission source. It makes sense to fixit both economically and environmentally if the rest of the car is in good condition.
I’m with you Ivan there are instances where you do chains or bottom end items and 1 year later boom burns to the top end, used to always be like that on the older v6 etc
Hi Ivan, it's been a few years since keeping up with you, man that is such a drag when repairs are more than the vehicle's value, I have to admit I was a bit overwhelmed, with everything, but still fun to watch, have a good Thanksgiving........k
@@weldingjunkie the chain is lubricated and cooled.and tensioned with oil. Low and dirty oil will not keep the chain cool and lubricated as well as clean oil would.
@@Cheepchipsable That depends on the design. It may be possible that even with a stretched chain there isn't sufficient slop for it to jump a tooth. Or it would start rattling first if there was enough slop. The 3.8 v6 in the KIA's had issues with the hydraulically operated tensioners failing and they would cause the chain to rattle at Cold startup... Sometimes it was not noticeable from inside the vehicle. It doesn't matter how badly they fail it cannot jump timing because there is insufficient extra chain for that to occur. Eventually the flopping chains wear out the plastic guide material and start grinding into the metal backing plate of those guides. That will be what kills the engine . Powderized metal being dumped into the oil eventually will cause main and rod bearing failure. But it takes a long long time for it to get to that point.
Nice. On many cars you can advance the base ignition timing in the PCM by a few degrees which can help with the late opening/closing valves from a stretched chain/belt as far as the ignition timing goes. Of course, that won't fix the valve timing i.e. crank's TDC vs. camshaft lobes but at higher RPMs it should theoretically make more power as the cylinders will fill up more completely.
Wow, that is totally different game plan!!! Just needed a o2 sensor!! That literally fixed the problem! Hopefully costumer will call you when the chains needs replacing soon! As in sure the state inspection and emissions is coming up soon. Great job!! Totally changed what i saw!!!
Its nice to see a job explained so well to a customer. The shop I'm at would have quoted phasers, solenoids, guides, chains, tensioners, gasket set, oil, coolant, o2s, extra diag on the evap system and would have completely lost the job.
Well done ivan, it's usable again :-D Well for that cheap sensor fix, i would see how much it would cost to get the rest of the codes sorted. If the car only has a timing chain error then it's usable in any state :-D
@@staind288 oh i see, i don't know who that is however it's quite a common saying well "kick the can down the road" in Australia and other English speaking Country's.
Hey Ivan great video (as always). A question for you though... in a situation like this I know you save data from pico, but do you make the user sign a waiver if the chain were to snap and catastrophe hits the engine? I mean, I'd hate to be on the hook for a 10hour job / engine swap. Anyways, I'd love to know how you handle this.
Nice find there! Good thing the customer went to you for a 2nd opinion! Saved them thousands I'd bet. o2 sensor ... or 10.1 hour timing chain job. Hmmm .. let me think about that ... 😂🤣😂
Ya And the bad o2 was probably making the engine runs like crap and tricking the computer into thinking it needed a chain the owner was very smart to bring it to iven
Talk to one other guy before who had no reverse. Seems crazy to me but it makes sense. You just have to strategically park so you can always pull forward.
We had a Corolla where I work which had no reverse gear which worsened to no 3rd and 4th and I drove that thing on and off for years. It was perfectly doable. It was in remarkably good condition otherwise compared to the Vauxhall Astra we had which was on its 3rd gearbox and needed filling up with tap water for coolant most days. 😂
Good find and solution for the customer to decide on. This customer has a third option too. Sell the car and likely pay more bucks to replace it. Once they see that on the horizon, they would see the benefits of spending only $1,000 to $1,200 for a timing chain job and keep the car going. There is no bright future with avoiding complete repairs for most folks mainly because a good condition and mechanically sound older vehicle is the best financial mode for transportation etc. Once the existing vehicle says "I need $1,000 to fix me" it shouldn't be the basis for calling it a junker, unless its a rust bucket. I know that a replacement vehicle will exceed $2,000 easily or $300+ a month in car payments are much more than what this vehicle needs to run correctly and in some States, pass smog testing. Just my opinion...keep the car...fix it complete and know that problem won't appear again.
Gm sells a kit for that job. It includes the chains tensioners and all gaskets needed. I’ve used the gm kit a few times. It costs about $230. I’ve done a couple traverses. You just drop the sub frame out with the engine n trans attached of coarse. Install the chain set and bolt back up. Not too bad. About 10 hours. Is that the same procedure on the xl7? Probably. Actually the kit is $186.79 on rock auto. I’m sure you saw it. Must be the same kit. Rock auto is cheaper than the gm dealer. So yeah about $1800 once you get done with new dexcool, spark plugs bc the plenum will be off. Maybe a thermostat, possible water pump (upon inspection) and a belt. Could hit $2k easily. With all the “while ur in there” items.
I certainly understand it's an older vehicle, moneys tight get another 20-30k out of it, my only concern is the timing chain is indicating it needs to be replaced, so failure is not out of the question, I don't have enough experience with this engine to be confident it will be reliable, but it runs so maybe no big road trips and all is well
Just wondering how long on a stretched chain ? There doesn't seem to be any chain rattle so its not as critical as I thought. The 02 sensor worked a treat. Hard to call it, chain or no chain ? However with the mil light on, a cert for emissions would not be a reality in my part of the woods.
I have a 2008 Suzuki Grand Vitra only 60,000 miles, it sure has a lot of ticking noises from the engine in it, always has been " not a quiet engine". Often wondered why not as quiet as other cars I have owned but nothing has changed in the last 10 years guess I won't worry about it. Glad to see that it was a different engine than I have.
@@alanhester9984 so exact same V6 as my 2002 XL7! I agree it's a noisy engine lol. Synthetic oil every 5k miles is mandatory. The only Achilles heel is that pesky timing chain tensioner 😐
Wondering if I could do a good engine flush and oil change (car sat for 2+ years with little to no use) and clear out my P0366 (Camshaft Position Sensor B) and P0008 (Bank 1 Severity 2/3)? Thoughts? Engine runs smooth; don hear chain slop or extra noise. Just put new tires on the car too-doh. The chain was once already replaced by Suzuki.
Was wondering if you looked at cam actuator data on scanner before or after repairs..or after you cleared codes..to look at variances. Or does the correlation codes come back right away and cause data to become invalid to look at? Was just wondering if this could've helped in your diagnosis any.
Then you would screw up the timing on bank 1 also. Looks like only exhaust camshaft bank 2 jumped a teeth because the intake was almost the same as bank 1.
@@spin1275gt this is to Fix P0008 and P0009 Bank 1 and 2 out of time due stretched chain. If Bank 2 exhaust cam has jumped, that need to be fixed separately.
I'm not sure about that car but I know the 3.6 impala are very sensitive to just a slightly lower voltage I was getting all kinds of timing codes phasers codes the battery only had a 6 percent battery life left a new battery fixed all the codes and after 10 weeks no codes have come back so far
I’m not terribly far away from State College and wander up to Southwestern PA fairly regular. I like to fix me own jalopies but should I get stumped I will come begging for service!
I've heard people say timing chains don't stretch and that they "wear" however I'm confused in both scenarios because 1. if the timing chain is stretched, why doesn't the tensioner make up the slack and 2. if the timing chain is worn out, I would think that would just make a sloppy connection between the chain and the pegs on the cam and crank gears...still confused as to how exactly a worn out or stretched chain causes the timing issues....could you illustrate this?
Ivan. How does this guy pass the Pa. inspection with the check engine light on? Also, he's using a "wooden prop" to hold up the hood! To damn cheap to put on, or have put on, those hood hydraulic props. Damn. :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics That fuel issue will return. Its actually caused by the compression diff. bank to bank. Cust. wont know cuz the engine light isnt fixed. Nice video anyway,
It would if it was in Colorado. They changed ours so even if the CEL was on it will still pass emissions as long as it passes the tailpipe and gas cap tests.
The honest thing to do is give the customer ALL of the options, the pitfalls, and quotes. They pay the bills, we just advise and fix it. Does it need chains? Sure. Does it need an O2? Yep as well. And it might need cats after that. It's their $. We do the best we can with what they decide.
Actually it's county by county in pa. Also the one that don't have emissions just have a visual inspection to make sure the emissions isn't tampered with.
I haven't thought this fully through so pls don't shoot me too much... If the entire issue was solely due to chain stretch, then I would have expected (ball park) similar differences between bank1 and bank2. i.e. Since the intake cam base timing differs by around 5 degrees bank-to-bank, I would expect a (ballpark) similar difference on the exhaust cam base timing between the two banks However, the bank2 exhaust cam is significantly different to the bank1 exhaust cam... My prognosis would be more like: 1: The bank 2 exhaust cam has 'jumped' a tooth or 2, or 3 (which isn't uncommon on belts, but much less so on a chain). OR 2: The bank 2 exhaust cam was never installed at the correct timing in the first place. If this is an 'interference' motor (which I think it is), I'd be expecting a valve to be knocking on the crown of a piston in the not too distant future.
I wrongly assumed that the patterns would match up B1 to B2, but that was not the case on Exhaust cam for B2. Everything is in time, but the chains are a bit stretched :)
Not usually, new cars like the toyotas, they call them AF sensors for the upstream and are more sensitive and fast reporting this the trims are faster and more efficient. Downstreams are normal O2 sensors.
Wow!!! OK so I have a 2006 Jeep Commander hemi !!! I am a older/woman Had my three daughters unfortunately got a divorce and the jeep is the one thing I got and still drives wonderful when it’s working/ driving RIGHT ,,,LOL I’ve had my jeep forever It is a 2006 The top-of-the-line 5.7 hemi!!And,,, I do love it ! *Btw- It has been taken care ,,, I mean oil changes,,,Turn up the batteries top-of-the-line new radiator!! Also?? So,,,,??????? What I’m wondering Is........? Did you ever find out exactly how to fix,,, The issues on the Jeep commander problem because it’s exactly what I have going on ,,, as a matter fact and have had going on with my own jeep commander?? So,, Since that video I believe was like a year ago and wondering if you ever came up with a scenario on How to completely correct it?? your So I kno that you made that particular video Like a year ago,,, So unfortunately I just now watched it ,,, didn’t Kno u had made it before now,? You’re a super smart kid are you all anywhere near St. Louis Missouri?? We don’t KNOW anyone ELSE W/ your knowledge or maybe they just don’t want to ??? We are so tired of spending a fortune ,,, and then doing the same thing again should be a lemon clause there for these Commander’s?? I’d rather pay somebody to do it right the first time,, The knowledge that you have?? Please let me know if you found anything else that can fix this problem ??? also I’m having a problem just as of a couple days ago where I can’t drive it over 40 miles an hour??? And then it starts getting really hot on the temperature gage as well?!! Thank you so much for your help sincerely Paula
If you guys are anywhere near St. Louis Missouri My fiancé and I’m-myself can Either bring it to u?? Or u all can comecome here to fix it??? Ha ha wishful thinking:( Thank you so much I so appreciate your videos
truth to that, i live in the mid mon valley (Washington county) but look out my window at Westmoreland county and Fayette county and Allegheny county is only an 8 minute drive. Too many ties here or I'd move to Bedford or Johnstown area
Thanks for posting this video... I was pretty tired when I watched your prior video and I was convinced I missed something... On most VVT systems the computer sets the timing based on the oxygen sensor. Bad oxygen sensor means incorrect timing in my feeble sleep deprived mind. So I couldn't get why you didn't do the oxygen sensor first and then check the timing. It might have also been a good idea to check the cam and crank position sensors to make sure they were OK before confirming chain slop. I'm not familiar with that engine but some engines have tensioners that should take up the slop and the computer should be able to adjust for the error with the VVT and ignition timing. Just the rambles of the tired mind of a guy that started fixing cars back in the 1970's on 1960's cars... when women were liberated, men were confused and all real cars had over 420 cubic inches and 4 bbl carbs.
That troublesome engine light would have you dumping thousands of Eures into a chain job only to find out that a 02 sensor broke could you do what you did to your suzuki were you twisted the cam sensor to trick the computer into thinking the timing is ok
Predict it will now be driven until the chain(s) finally snap and the engine suicides - then off to the junkyard. If that's how the customer wants to play it, fair enough.
I think you’ve given the customer a false sense of security. The chain has stretched which means it should be replaced before it breaks and takes the whole engine out. Chains don’t always rattle, sometimes the tensioner just keeps taking up the slack until it either falls out or the chain brakes. All you’ve done is made them loose faith in a workshop that was right on the money.
I don't understand why GM has such trouble with their chains. I can't blame them totally because manufacturers are constantly looking for ways to reduce weight of a vehicle because of the EPA and emissions. I don't think I would skimp on the quality of the chains though just to make them light weight. Durability suffers because of it. That customer should get their headlamp lenses cleaned or polished, really hazy and yellow.
Ivan, why are all of your customers broke? I thought State College was a pretty upscale neighborhood. I long for the day when your customer tells you: "I don't care what it cost just fix the damn thing."
Yea, best decision no doubt, but don't give guarantees to the customer. Otherwise will be your fault if anything happen. Don't trust on this new generation cars, they are unpredictable. Is not your fault that he drive car which cannot afford to handle. Anyway good view.