Good God? A conversation with Professor N.T. Wright at Duke 

not so. the bottom level was for the WORST sinners, not those who sinned first.

I think you misunderstood. Satan sinned first, without a doubt. And the logic of the inferno is that his fall from heaven into the earth created the cave of the inferno. The fall into the earth also, in the poetic logic of Dante's universe, pushed up the Mount of Purgatory on the other side. So the first instance of sin created the means of purging one's sinful nature. The fact remains though, that Satan has no agency whatsoever, and is almost a tragic figure in the poem, when the more he beats his wings to escape the more the winds freeze him in place.

Oh, and I meant you misunderstood what I was trying to say about Satan in the Inferno, not that you misunderstood the poem. The lowest level of hell is absolutely for the worst sinners (the betrayers).

I'm not sure how that comment is a response to this thread on Dante, or what the importance of it is.

​@@tripp8833probably was

Not really. Rather a blasphemous man

That certainly is an interesting interpretation, but would it exclude Jesus dying and rising in a glorified body (what Jews meant by resurrection)?

it is important to believe Jesus died and rose physically on the third day

No, God gave us free will, we've abused it and this is how it ended. God said about Creation after the first man that it was very good

JeTc That is Not what he said. He said that Hell is not equal to Heaven.

One thing to remember is that NT Wright was speaking through the lens of the Christian worldview as communicated in the bible. With that in mind, the biblical story suggests human beings were created in the image of their Creator (i.e. God) to rightly represent him and reflect his love and character into the world, and the implication is that this is the biblical idea of what it actually means to be human. So, if someone who is created for this purpose turns his back on the Creator and decides he wants to do life on his own terms, and no longer represent and reflect the Creator, he is by all accounts becoming something less or other than what he was created to be. Therefore, from the bible's perspective, to be human = representing and reflecting the character of the Creator; to be a diminished human = to no longer want to participate with the Creator in this endeavor (i.e. running away from God). I believe that was the point NT Wright was attempting to make in a setting where the time to do so is very limited. You or others do not have to agree with NT Wright's or the biblical view in regards to humans being created in God's image for this type of purpose, however, if someone does believe in this view (and NT Wright clearly does) it is a logical conclusion to draw that human beings become diminished (a lesser version of themselves) when they choose to no longer function according to their design. I hope that helps add a little more context, from a biblical perspective, to the idea that "people who run away from God are making themselves less human."

well because we are created in His image and by going away from that, we are becoming less of the thing we actually were made to be. We never thought we were better because of ourselves. How can we brag by things we have received? God made us new creatures not because of our righteousness but because He was so loving.

@@uganda_mn397 Who says we were made in your god's image? You? You don't recognize how dangerous it is to say that people are less than human or even less godly because they aren't your religion? People suffer and even die from laws made on that basis, in our day, not just in history. People suffer and die from extralegal actions based on that belief. That is why so many Christians are considered dangerous extremists.

@@melissamybubbles6139 where did i ever say that? I believe there are a-theists more moral than people claiming to be Christians

That is John's vision of heaven, not a description of it. Visions are allegorical, not literal.

Satan means Accuser as he said. You are Satan to NT Wright, how does it feel? Attend to your rafter first. I have deep convictions also, but I also know NT Wright has forgotten more about this subject than I most likely have grasped. Beware your pride, it has ruined many a great man! Vision, hyperbolic speech, & metaphors found in the Bible should not be taken literally.

JeTc The issue is that, when you say all temptations, all doubts about God, all evil in the world, is "from Satan", you are in fact giving him immense power that many throughout history have viewed as almost equal to and opposite God. You're saying he has power over thoughts, over actions, over desires and impulses, over human beings and groups of human beings. When the Bible calls Satan the "father of lies," does it really mean he is able to wield power over our thoughts and push us to lie, or does it mean through his wickedness and temptation, sins-like lying-entered the world and now afflict all men?

@@yeehaw6267 I think it means Satan wields the power of sin itself. Any/all sinfulness. He then, is the source of the temptation of all sinfulness. But, Christ Himself took on "all of sin". He was afflicted with every craving, and dark desire. And, though He endured struggle, He overcame them all. So, He gained power over the nature of sin. Through Christ, mankind is saved from the wages of sin. (death, selfishness, pride, fear, greed, lust, jealousy, envy, vengeance, etc.)