Regardless of political affiliation I think we can all agree that what is missing from modern politics is thoughtful, intelligent debates between passionate well-spoken individuals--instead of the garbage we are treated to from modern media.
The fact this comment was posted 9 years ago but got a mere 10 likes me included, yet we can see dozens of comments posted ten hours ago with some witty line on a useless video, getting thousands of likes, sums up much of what you say by reflecting it upon our modern times. Sad truth is in these times many citizens were atleast somewhat informed on what was happening around them. Even far away from them at times. Now? Most people don't even want to look outside their own windows. The people have failed their government almost as much as the government has failed its people.
"Listen here, you queer, stop calling me a crypto-fascist or I will sock you in your goddamn face, and you'll stay plastered" A prime example of civil discourse, from a Buckley vs Vidal debate.
There really isn't anything out there with the best political thinkers of both sides going head to head. If you ever see a debate on CNN or Fox, they always get idiots and weirdos to represent the opposing side.
God Hates America, God Hates Republicans Mass Murder Party Gore Vidal is a Oklahoman I am from Muskogee. Oklahoma, Proud of Gore Vidal from Oklahoma: I live in San Francisco now 74 Years Old.
@@SteveTheGhazaRooster It's not the fault of the media. The majority of people have always been crass and uneducated and frivolous, but were kept away from TV shows because there were standards of decency. Elitism, if you will. But your side believes that elitism is wrong. That the "real" Americans are the ones who can't string a sentence together and speak in low, grunting tones. So, you got what you always wanted. The real Americans have spoken and here we have the thrash you so abhor.
This was back when some AMERICANS could read books, albeit explained by one out of the two of them, of the other being required to frequent Europe, to do so. The top spots in politics under the reigns of Nixon, Regan and others were not exactly festooned with talent and eloquence.
Pretty sure modern politicians still read books, its just that the image they are expected to take on and the ways they can manipulate people have changed.
"As a matter of fact we have a situation in the United States where they believe we should have socialism for the rich and free enterprise for the poor." (5:19+) ... in 1968 (!), such a prophet.
Oh please the rich rule the world n dont pay adequate taxes good Lord u need a billion to live no let the capitalists that arranged this pay the poor so what
God Hates America, God Hates Republicans Mass Murder Party Gore Vidal is a Oklahoman I am from Muskogee. Oklahoma, Proud of Gore Vidal from Oklahoma: I live in San Francisco now 74 Years Old.
Nope. Buckley was a bigot's bigot. A virulent anti-semite, a leading opponent of any and all civil rights for non-whites, and, of course, a vicious homophobe, which is darkly comic, because most people, especially modern conservatives, see him clearly as the self-infatuated, effeminate fop he was.
Mild mannered, calculated, well researched, debate about facts as opposed to conjecture. Two brilliant men who well articulate the English language. We need this today.
Dr. King noticed that government funds for the rich are called subsidies, but less generous government funds to the poor are called 9wth disdain) "welfare."
20 trillion dollars have been spent on welfare programs for the poor since LBJ. The poverty rate has flatlined. These social programs have been ineffective.
@nicholasgonzalez5982 not sure if these figures include Medicare and Social Security. Social programs have been poorly funded, implemented and updated especially considering they are constantly under attack and in political gridlock along with minimum wage and corporate regulation. We've spent much more on corporate subsidies and the military. How productive have our military campaigns been since then? Why hasn't the net worth of the American working class kept up with corporate profits since we have no problem with corporate welfare?
@@nicholasgonzalez5982 Federal subsidies to U.S. businesses now cost American taxpayers nearly $100 billion a year; and that was in 1999. Fossil fuel industry alone has taken 7 trillion in subsidies. If all corporate welfare programs were eliminated, Congress would have enough money to entirely eliminate the capital gains tax and the death tax. Alternatively, Congress could cut the personal and corporate income tax by 10 percent across the board.
Richard J. McCollough, M.Ed. Have you seen the documentary film of the debates and the Vidal / Buckley relationship, “The Best Of Enemies”? It’s excellent.
@@pianobanter I saw previews of it, but did not get to the theatre to see it. I will look it up. Ironically, years before I wanted to do a documentary on them and that time in history. But the ones I am working on now will make up for it. They were much more intelligent on-air than many today.
And the sexuality. Gore was clearly, at least to everyone but Vidal and that tot tapping Buckley kept his mouth "occupied" while boring everyone at Yale.
One great change is that the intellectual level of conversation has dropped drastically over the past four or five decades. Can we able to sustain such a conversation nowadays.
trha2222 Civility has suffered a general decline. But Conservatives have certainly not fared better as exemplars of civility. If general, they've generally not fared as well. And liberals have no monopoly on violence.
trha2222 Most American terrorists--regardless of what the media suggests--are RIGHT WING and usually white. Liberals didn't start the birther movement. Liberals don't tend to affiliate with white supremacists and nationalists. Liberals don't form armed militias to terrorize their neighbors. In decades past it wasn't the liberals who formed lynch mobs, bombed churches, shoot dissident university students, or impose segregation by means of force. And Chris Hitchens was right when he noted that it was the LEFT who formed the black freedom movement of the 1960s and the movement for the rights of women. You don't have to romanticize liberals or other leftist to see that most violence and repression have come from the Right--and still does.
trha2222 I've studies history and know what I'm talking about. By the way, your reply to my analysis--"pure bullshit"-- is an example of what I meant when I stated earlier that discussion or debate on the level of Gore Vidal and William Buckley is rare and barely possible today. Despite his snide, mocking manner Buckley would hat least have made some effort to reply to me with a REASONED rebuttal.
The worst thing about Nixon was the most liberal thing about him - His penchant for Keynesian economics, which he used to win an election, and which brought about the rampant inflation that destroyed industry, the american middle class, and which we have never actually recovered from.
God Hates America, God Hates Republicans Mass Murder Party Gore Vidal is a Oklahoman I am from Muskogee. Oklahoma, Proud of Gore Vidal from Oklahoma: I live in San Francisco now 74 Years Old.
It is hard to believe that American television once hosted two such passionate and articulate political commentators. Gore Vidal was a very popular guest on American talk shows for a while - but then the political spectrum moved far to the right and Vidal went from being a frequent television commentator to a TV non-person.
tiffsaver And Buckley was for the Vietnam War. Conservatives shouldn't promote this guy as a great thinker when he's repeatedly on the wrong side of history. He's an articulate idiot. He just defends the powerful, defends the status quo and the interests of the american ruling class. Nothing original or courageous about him
Thanks for providing this gem. I loved it. I think the reason why Buckley and Vidal disliked each other is because they both realized that neither one of them could intellectually defeat the other. Again, thanks very much for this!
+Thomas More You should probably elaborate on why you think Buckley was a homosexual. It is because you believe that Gore had a point when he said (paraphrasing) that humanity must be as gay as he is?
Ah, I see.......a "hunch". Well I should remind you what I said was that you should elaborate, not that you had to elaborate. I find your comments (and your claim) rather spurious, but considering you haven't offered anything substantive, I suppose it was the only kind of "drive-by" answer you could give. Suffice to say, the claim is malarkey. Of the countless words spoken or written about Buckley by his most strident enemies and closest friends, no one has ever made such a statement about the man. Aside from the fact that such a statement would be poorly received precisely because there is no evidence to support it, there wouldn't be much of a point to it even if it were true. Homosexuality did not make Gore a better person inasmuch it would have made Buckley a poorer one. So who else was gay, according to you? Teddy Roosevelt?
Thomas More I see no conservative today, except for George Will, who can keep company with William F. Buckley, Jr., who, along will, are exemplars of a classic education now long gone, except for a few prep schools such as the St. George's School in Newport, R.I., and a few others. And poor O'Reilly isn't even in the ballpark with either Vidal or Buckley. Say, more, excuse me if I've asked this question once before and have forgotten that I have asked it, but just how is it that Vidal is related to Jimmy Carter, of all people, however intelligent Carter is? I fail to discern a cultural connection as I do with his connection to the Bouvier family. Carter's not preppy at all.
Thomas More On the question of bigotry found in the Republican party, am I correct that conservatism on the continent is different from our local brand, that is, it isn't a cover for racism? One of Buckley's more admirable standouts is that he addressed bigotry by conservatives and moved the movement away from anti Semitism, at least, not so much for the black conservative. Is a conservative in Europe different from his American counterpart?
Articulate and well informed debaters are much needed today, though it seems with the public's short "give me the tag line" attention span, they are not wanted by the average person today. Sad.
Fascinating debate. I consider myself a progressive, but always had grudging admiration for Buckley's intelligence and debating skills. Curious what he would have thought of the rise of Trump and today's brand of Republicanism. Vidal was also skilled, but a bit too arrogant for my tastes.
Interesting take on the two. To me, Buckley's manner is so pretensiously contrived, so overly theatric--beyond any normal expression of patrician manner--that he strikes me as especially arrogant, also evident in his posture within the chair. That said, I knew Vidal personally and can say he was far more arrogant personally than he is here (oddly enough)--I find him quite correct and civil here.
@@westbatman66 Allow me to present a bit of republican "what-aboutism" in the form of Miss Haley's on again, off again support for her former boss and the ever sinister Rick Scott openly denying his own proposals to sunset social security and medicare programs. Republicans are by far the most hypocritical as Vidal keenly pointed out a half century ago.
beasleybrother1 you should watch some of the early "firing line" episodes from the 60s here on youtube. they were very combative! they came out swingin!
Limbaugh and Hannity and those types are notorious for stoking fears whether they be racial, socioeconomic, or anti-LGBT. If you don't think so, need to really take a hard look. These men didn't.
This was one snippet of the Buckley-Vidal weeklong coverage of the Republican primaries. They did a show ever day of the convention. This is the same coverage where Vidal and Buckley famously called each other a “crypto-nazi” and a “queer”.
A good wit and an articulate argument is very satisfying. Especially when it’s persuasive enough that it compels me to rethink or change my stance on a subject.
Thanks very much for putting these online - seems like you're the only person who has done so which is fantastic. In the playlist I see 8 debates all up but on the documentary and other articles it mentions there were 10 debates. Does anyone know where the other 2 debates can be seen or have I misunderstood? Thanks in advance.
I’m not the one who uploaded these; but I am married to them. They can no longer access this account. Yes, there are 10 debates. One of the 8 here (Miami) is technically two debates; but is edited by ABC oddly and is unclear to those who don’t know that. The final 10th my spouse didn’t share as it is after the most famous of these debates and it is only a couple of minutes long. Vidal and Buckley are not interacting at one another at all. They were simply answering Howard K. Smith’s questions. Because there isn’t much there, he did not see to upload it.
“It seems to me that the Republican Party has shown a record of greater sobriety than Mr Vidal who boasts of not reading something that he’s prepared to misquote in the presence of the person who edits it “ God that was quick
@Rough Habit: No, Vidal does not read that "little magazine," but that doesn't mean he was not holding the exact quote from it in his hands. In fact, he was. When it did not suit his purpose, Buckley was known for denying what he had wrote or said. Vidal knowing that, came prepared, armed with quotes.
I watched this as many as 10 times I believe. Neither political party differs anymore but this program (my opinion) showed what Republicans are forever like and Democrats are no different now.
I'm so glad I lived long enough to see Gore Vidal proved right and William F. Buckley proved wrong. Vidal may have had an ego but Buckley made his own ego the center of his self-worshiping universe. The "conservatism" of Buckley and his ilk was the ideology of self-satisfaction and the bigotry that his kind was the end of human development.
As someone from the UK, I would find it so much easier to take Americans at all seriously if they still spoke like this instead of the farmer/bumpkin accents they all seem to have these days... Shame, really~
+FengLong It's called the 'Mid-Atlantic' or 'Trans-Atlantic' accent. I was considered the officially correct way to speak in this country for a long time, and was taught to children in schools. It began to fall out of favor over time, surviving mainly in private schools in the Northeast, and so eventually became associated with the upper class of the East Coast. That's probably why after WWII, it fell out of favor altogether and stopped being taught. I agree, it is an attractive accent, and I miss it. It survives now only at your great Aunt Martha's house lol, and in videos like this.
This is the miracle of prep schools. Buckley's father was a Texas oil wildcatter and Vidal's grandfather was an Oklahoma Senator. Vidal never even had to go to college to acquire that mid-Atlantic patrician accent. Both of them should be a-sayin's Garsh! Shazam! Whee Doggies, y'all. Pass the cornbread and okra! But no. They went to prep schools.
@juan...So do I. And you'll be amused, perhaps, that I'm watching an old classic called "Suddenly, last summer," starring Elizabeth Taylor, Montgomery Clift, and Kate Hepburn as Mrs. Venable and written by Tennessee Williams. Rounding out this cast is the wonderful Mercedes McCaimbridge. And to add to this lineup, the screenplay is by none other than Gore Vidal and Tennessee Williams himself, whose brother suffered from some exotic infirmity. Elizabeth Taylor gets first billing. But it's clear that the star of the show is Kate Hepburn, seconded by Montgomery Clift, a relationship similar to the one Norma Desmond (Gloria Swanson) has with a young character played by a youthful William Holden in "Sunset Boulevard."
+Jay Young He might be missed for his banter, but his screenplays, more times than not, were forgettable. Suddenly Last Summer was, arguably, one of the few successes (at least at the box office) though it was still panned by both critics and some involved with production of the film (beginning with Williams himself).
Doubt it is true that Vidal never read the National Review but I get the sentiment. Vidal mentions between 7:05-7:15 a headline he read in the National Review, that headline being "The Jig is Up". And again Vidal mentions a National Review article between 10:10-10:18 concerning Ronald Regan's cutting programs for the poor as Gov. California.
@@ton_of_youtube1831 He didn't say he himself read the headline, much less the article. Gore simply asked: "What was one of the headings in the National Review when Adam Clayton Powell got nabbed? The headline was: The Jig is Up." Which fits with his earlier statement that he's only "told about" the magazine.
@@apointofinterest8574 Yes, I heard what he said. But that does not mean that’s what did. Like I mentioned, I “doubt” he really never read National Review. We may never know whether he did or not. But the point he was making/implying is that he did not like the magazine, it’s politics and the editor of it (WFB).
@@tonyesposito6048 It's plain that Gore Vidal never read the National Review, only that he was told about what was in it, or else that provocative headline was referenced elsewhere, and caught his attention. It's nice to be able to chat with the Chicago Blackhawk Hockey Hall of Fame goaltender.
How very interesting this to watch. Well Vidal and the Liberal vision for America has claimed a definitive victory in the 50 years since this happened. Entitlement spending has far eclipsed military spending, and absolutely nothing to show for it. The wealth divide is larger, the poor are relatively poorer, and Government has grown.
Seeing Americans complain about government is hilarious. So much wringing of hands but no desire to learn from success around the world. Greetings from Singapore
Both Buckley and Vidal came from privileged backgrounds, but Vidal never went to college while Buckley made a big deal out of being educated in the Ivy League (Yale). Vidal was way smarter than Buckley.
It is more accurate to say that Gore CHOSE not to go to college. I am not sure if that something to brag about, to be honest, given the highly privileged background Gore had (arguably more privileged than Buckley's). Either way, I fail to see your point unless you are trying to say that a collage education is just another elitist crime.
I forgot to add that if we are talking about demonization laced with subtle ad hominem attacks under a veneer of frustration and self-loathing anger, I would them agree with you that Gore's genius is superlative in the regard.
@@gojeda As someone that actually has an education in logic and cringes at the misuse of the phrase "ad hominem" by self-serving pseudo-intellectuals, I can say that Gore Vidal is far more intelligent. This is why we can't underestimate a good education. Just because some people were privileged enough to not need one, doesn't mean that every Dunning Kruger Effect struck pretender can provide intelligent commentary.
Anyone who uses the term Dunning Kruger needs a bullet . It’s funny that language can sound exquisite to some and dull to others. Personally I thought that Yale’s greatest ever debater was a cut above his very talented opponent on this occasion
What they say isn't terrible unique, as much of the debate and arguments they had are still going on to some degree today. However the way they talk, and relate to each other, is far more interesting I believe. Nobody talks like that anymore.
rev.b No, he always had an oddly shaped head, a problem exacerbated by a dreadful comb-over. If the camera got too close, his pock-marked complexion was all you could see. Filming Buckley was a no-win situation.
Vidal had boxed Buckley in a corner with Buckley’s own words. It’s obvious Buckley was trapped by his own rhetoric and Vidal was brilliant in his direct approach. Vidal wins hands down!
"Passionate, but irrelevant." Priceless. Vidal pummels Buckley no end, but I can't help but wonder what today's Politifact would have found regarding many of their statements.
I love how Vidal in style, tone, and background, appears at first to be exactly the kind of typical rich boy advocating for his class. But he's not, he cares about the poor, disenfranchised black people, and is angry about how the wealthy class and the republicans co-opts democracy for their own benefits. He knows the bullshit and calls it out directly. It's fantastic.
I admire Vidal a great deal for precisely that reason. He was born into wealth and privilege, into America's elite ruling class, but he never fit in to their society for a number of reasons, and he knew he was seen as a pariah both by the ruling Democrat elites his family was part of, and by neocons like Buckley (a big part of the reason Buckley hated him so much was because Vidal refused to hide in the closet like most other gay men of the time). He was unapologetic about who he was, even though he was constantly denigrated for it. He could think for himself, think outside the box, he had a genuine compassion, sensitivity, and intelligence. He came across as aloof, difficult to know and get close to, but if you knew about his upbringing and his experiences, you would understand why he was that way.
ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Ax5agwHo-Gw.html Easy Vidal was a Club of Rome cult member who believed in mass starvation by 1973 and the need for Chinese style one child family planning. This interview did not age well.
I put all four of these on Plex so I could play it on my TV. You do not get this kind of entertainment anymore. The idea that intellectuals were celebrities must seem odd to a generation who cares about that vile Honey Boo Boo. Christopher Hitchens came close as he, too, was a very entertaining polemicist. Camille Paglia, too. You watch old Carson or Cavett clips and you get Capote, Mailer, Vidal, Chomsky... Those days are gone. We are a lesser nation for it, too.
Nothing has changed. The Republicans still serve a specific class; the corporate class. We still spend enormous amounts on the military... which simply serves the corporate sector. Black people are still very much disenfranchised. We're regressing... as far as wealth concentration is concerned. It's much worse today. We've a plutocracy.... whereas in '68 there were hints of a semblance of a democracy.
CHANgnsd Republicans don't give a shit about anything besides funneling money to the 1%. Broke as a joke right-wingers vote for this, over and over and over again. They define the useful idiot.
TheBrainMachine78 And Vidal just explained their game of crying crocodile tears that a brain-dead American public still has yet to pick up on going on fifty bleemin' years now. Owning the media is apparently the end game. Sad.
Gore Vidal (on 4 m./45 s.): "... somebody once pointed out: Republicans are not a party, they are a class... it is a class, by enlarge it is a class of small businessmen with very strong views..."
