GOSS Rant [Not a review!] - Grand Operational Simulation Series 

A wonderful explanation of the GOSS rules problems in great, gory detail! The really maddening thing about GOSS is that a lot of the subsystems are not actually that difficult or complicated, they just seem that way because of the obtuse rulebooks. For example, I found the supply rules were pretty straightforward, once I figured them out. Considering the detail in the system, the supply rules might even be considered elegant. Even the combat resolution system, while containing a number of steps, isn't that complicated once you run a few combats. That said, I would still consider GOSS a "fiddly" system. Especially the movement rules (of all things 🙄). The order of movement rules create massive headaches, bog down the game, and provide no satisfactory pay off in their effect on game play. Speaking of game play, that's a subject you haven't even broached in this rant. I found serious game play issues in WaR. I spent a full week at a con with 5 others playing the campaign scenario and came away with a dramatically different opinion of GOSS than I had going in (and not for the better). I do not yet know whether the issues I experienced in WaR are series wide, or just unique to WaR, but I am concerned that they are the former rather than the latter. WaR was such a disappointment I am tempted to sell it, but refrain from doing so only because it would break up my complete GOSS collection. For a Bulge game, I can definitively say BCS Last Blitzkrieg is far superior to GOSS WaR. AW still has tremendous appeal for me, not least because it's the only game at this scale that covers the entire campaign through late August. I really like the fact it includes not just the play on the game maps, but also the strategic movement of German forces into the Normandy theater. Although, my (so far) brief experience with that portion of the game suggests it may not play as well as it sounds. Besides the massive rulebook frustrations, what is keeping me from getting to grips with AW is the Amphibious Module. The last time I played through it, it took 6 hours of game play to resolve the 3 subpphases on the 6JUN AM turn. And those were a pretty miserable 6 hours for little to no gain. The fact they don't have a post-landing scenario (starting on the 6JUN PM turn) is really irritating. I am also a little leery of some potential game play issues as revealed in AW's "Introductory Scenario". I see in that some echoes of the issues I had with WaR, which is concerning. One of the big issues I have with the campaign scenarios from all (except AW) GOSS games is the mandatory lulls. I understand the designer is trying to reflect the historical supply situations, but there are much better ways to do so. The mandatory lulls essentially script the game, removing a lot of the fun in the process. Also, very typical of GOSS, the lull rules are poorly written and contradictory. They're just a mess. Given the nice supply system in the game, it would have been very easy to impose the same kind of restrictions on players without resorting to straitjackets. The lull rules in WaR are particularly bad. There is one game system that is more complex than GOSS: "The Second World War" series by Diffraction Entertainment. If you ever get bored with banging your head against the brick wall that is GOSS, and want to try something even more byzantine and (much) more expensive, then pick up one of the TSWW games like Barbarossa or Singapore. Keep up the good work, and thanks for sharing your GOSS journey in an entertaining and informative manner!

The second I start to see the need to print out loads of BGG player aids, endless flip books and 1400 additional pages to even get started, it's a red flag. Was very tempted to buy games from this system as the scale and scope seemed amazing. Life's too short to pretend poorly designed/written games (not fit to print) are great fun. This video confirms GOSS is pure amateur hour when compared to the sheer selection of polished titles out there more worthy of our time and money. Thank you for keeping us thoughtfully informed!

Had a memorable GOSS moment with a good buddy when we simultaneously expressed our extreme frustration with the headache-inducing rules and very turgid system. Games quickly sold off, never again.

GOSS was at Consimworld the three years I attended. Each time, units on the map had hardly been moved after a week of convention.

One of the best "rants" I have watched! You manage to highlight everything that's wrong with the system even for me who hasn't delved into it. Frankly I can't think of a personal rules' red flag that you haven't raised. Well done!

No game is good enough to justify that level of frustration

I have been there before. Getting frustrated and angry over a bad rulebook. Instead of being good sport though, I make it into a life-long resentment.

Doug Johnson took over development starting with Lucky Forward. The new rulebook is a vast improvement and can be used with previous games. Hope that helps. And yes, the constricted terrain is a PIA-as it should be.

I just want to add that GOSS improved dramatically between AW and Lucky Forward. I know that's probably not much of a comfort to those that understandably bounced off the system, but at least their concerns didn't fall on deaf ears.

Good video...the only suggestion I can make from getting fairly deep into the Lucky Forward campaign with a friend, is that the f2f/live play setting allows for collaborative rule finding/parsing/translating and provides a much more positive experience...good luck!

GOSS has some terrific ideas and concepts. The problem is that the creative types of people who come out with them are not good at writing clear consistent rules (or even finding someone else to do so). The APTO/AETO games have the same syndrome. So also the Schettler Winter Storm games. I have always thought that the success of OCS is largely down to a crystal clear rule set enabling the play of satisfyingly large complex games (it certainly can't be the graphics!). So with GOSS, a game like Lucky Forward may be one thing but Atlantic Wall with its separate air drop, beach landing and off map movement sub-systems using their own different rules is going to be a barrier to entry too high for most which is a shame because physically AW is awesome.

"not a review! I haven't spent enough time with this system!" I'm not a fan of this type of modesty. You spent a fortune on and played two titles, gave 150 of your hours to learn and play the system, you damn well get to do a review of it. If a gaming system is so bad a guy needs to actually spend 500 hours to be able to review it, then that needs to be exposed. I've spent far less time with GOSS and I own three games. I'm not shy to say this: GOSS is the system I would like to love and play for the rest of my days. Sadly it's so horribly mismanaged and terribly documented and supported that it probably will never happen for me. Big whoop, I know, but there it is.

The GOSS rules are a lot at first, but with the 2020 rules that came with Lucky Forward, things work much better. GOSS is not for everyone but I have found the time invested well worth it. Atlantic Wall is probably not the best entry point.

Complex rules do not automatically make an in depth experience - I share your frustration.

I hear your pain. I've been there with other games. I love monster games but was never tempted by GOSS. I suggest you focus your precious gaming time on BCS, GTS and even older OCS. Lots of games, majestic scales, mature rules, well supported communities.

Agree with your views--was playing this system with 3 more seasoned players and the farther we progressed more and more questions came up most concerned contradictions with the rules--became a long slog with debates ongoing--finally after many hours we quit-sold my GOSS games

As a play facilitation rule, where the terrain is very open, we usually suspend the order of movement rules, since if you sat down long enough and figured it out, you could probably make any move legally when the terrain is more open.

I think Atlantic Wall is unique enough that they need to create one rule book for it - bin the system and Atlantic Wall rules. This should make it simpler. As for being the most complex game? Absolutely. I don't know of anything more complex. I play ASL regularly and that's a walk in the park by comparison! ASL rules are much better written and you don't need to learn them all to play a game. Just all of Chapter A, parts of B, parts of C and all of D. If you are just doing infantry only, then it's Chapter A and parts of B only. In comparison, with Atlantic Wall, you need to learn ALL rules from the System book, the Atlantic Wall book and the Scenario book and then deal with the rules fragmentation and inconsistencies that you describe. The ASL rulebooks might look bigger, but the amount of rules you need to learn are far less!

Very thoughtful and fair. By the way, I know it's way too late but that rule is correct. FoW units that don't regroup during the Airborne Assault Stage, don't start to regroup again until the June 7th AM GT.

I'm with you. I put a lot of money into GOSS. I "bounce" off of it every couple of years when I give it yet another chance... and I so much want to like it. I play and love many other Monster games.

Video cut off at 33 mins. I agree, a "lifestyle" game like GOSS ought to be better documented. It's a super-complex system, and I suppose not enough people buy it and play it, and therefore not enough effort has gone into making the rules clear and watertight. I'm happier avoiding these "lifestyle" games, and bouncing back and forth between systems like GCACW, Simonitch's WWII games, and Men of Iron series, to name a few. Life is short!

A ruleset anywhere on the complexity scale can be poorly written and organized. Move on to Battle for Normandy. You shouldn't be spending 90 percent of your time combing though a fractured ruleset.

This is one of the reasons why I refuse to purchase this game system... the lack of clarity and rules editing have a very bad reputation.

Seems like there is a fantastic game here that is buried in poor rules writing, which makes it remarkably frustrating because of the depth and complexity of the simulation. How unfortunate. Hopefully you'll keep on with it and make it out to the other side. I imagine in some instances, you're just going to have to determine a house rule, until further clarifications might be available. I often post questions on BGG if I can't find answers to certain game rules. Gamers or even the designer will usually respond fairly quickly. Cheers.

Personally I think the 2020 system rules are very good. But the AW exclusive rules need a major rewrite. They were hard to follow before the system rules were redone. And now they are unusable for me. I think there are so many great concepts in this system. But unfortunately Atlantic Wall is just not playable in its current form for me. I have enjoyed Lucky Forward and WaR though.

I have heard people say the beach landing part of AW is terrible.

PS it was a very helpful rant and generated a lot of chat with my F2F gaming chums. Basically, we blame the publisher. Decision Games has released (again) a product that is frankly not fit for sale. I'm keeping my Decision Games barge pole close to hand.

Sounds like work to me 😂

I have Hurtgen HF because I thought it would be the easiest one to figure out. I still have not figured it out, although I have no tried all that much. I doubt I am smurt enough to figure out Atlantic Wall if I had 10 lifetimes.

By the way, the sound skips out at 32:59 in this upload. At least for me.

how dose this compare to the campaign for north Africa the desert war. in terms of both complexity and obtuseness cause through out this series you have said goss is the most complex game you know of

It seems a lot of people have moved on from CSW as the UI isn't great. Not sure if there is a channel for GOSS but as I am learning GTS I'm finding Discord to be the best place for answers.

I already bought AW, so this advice is too late for me. The first thing I had to do was convert the PDF to Word so I could expand all the abbreviations as I was learning the rules. I found them unreadable otherwise.

Don’t scenario rules override GOSS rules